MornaBaine wrote: »I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.
Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?
Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.
MornaBaine wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: ».phreatophile wrote: »The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.
All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.
Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.
Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.
The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.
The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active
These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.MornaBaine wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.
So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?
Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.
Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.
That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?
As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.
Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.
Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL
So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?
I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.
I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
I would be fine with them giving you the tools to make other players vanish as I said.
There has been many instances where other players have annoyed/irritated me on this game and many others. Rather or not you would consider them role players or engaged in some roleplaying event is irrelevant.
For example: I've had numerous players dance around me in their underwear and talk trash. It never even occurred to me that I should call a GM over it. I've seen entire guilds dancing in their panties before inside the bank and talking nonsense. I've had bare chested nords and cat people attempt to make out with me in the rift.
I think the real issue here in this thread is that people who consider themselves role players for what ever reason believe that being a role player gives them some special privilege not to be disturbed. That's what I'm trying to highlight.
And you would be wrong. Plain and simple. No one is asking for special privileges because we think we're entitled to them by virtue of being roleplayers. We are asking for tools that would make a better player experience for everyone. Including the people who don't like roleplayers and don't want to see them. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with that.
phreatophile wrote: »Because they enjoy harassing people.
But that's the beauty, they would STILL be harassing people; only the people would have an off button. The only way to argue againat this is to claim your game play requires that you be seen by all players, even if they don't want to see you. (i.e. trolls have rights superior to the rights of the trolled).
farrier_ESO wrote: »If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.
Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.
From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.
http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/
Well worth reading even for players.
MornaBaine wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: ».phreatophile wrote: »The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.
All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.
Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.
Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.
The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.
The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active
These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.MornaBaine wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.
So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?
Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.
Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.
That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?
As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.
Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.
Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL
So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?
I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.
I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
I would be fine with them giving you the tools to make other players vanish as I said.
There has been many instances where other players have annoyed/irritated me on this game and many others. Rather or not you would consider them role players or engaged in some roleplaying event is irrelevant.
For example: I've had numerous players dance around me in their underwear and talk trash. It never even occurred to me that I should call a GM over it. I've seen entire guilds dancing in their panties before inside the bank and talking nonsense. I've had bare chested nords and cat people attempt to make out with me in the rift.
I think the real issue here in this thread is that people who consider themselves role players for what ever reason believe that being a role player gives them some special privilege not to be disturbed. That's what I'm trying to highlight.
And you would be wrong. Plain and simple. No one is asking for special privileges because we think we're entitled to them by virtue of being roleplayers. We are asking for tools that would make a better player experience for everyone. Including the people who don't like roleplayers and don't want to see them. I'm not quite sure why you have a problem with that.
I don't have a problem with that.
I've already said multiple times in this thread that I don't have any issue with your idea to add tools that would allow you to ignore and disappear other players who offend you.
What I have a problem with is disciplining players or banning them because their emotes might offend someone. That's not an area I'm comfortable with the GMs acting.
nerevarine1138 wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.
Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?
Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.
And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?
As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.
farrier_ESO wrote: »If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.
Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.
From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.
http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/
Well worth reading even for players.
A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.
Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.
nerevarine1138 wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.
Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?
Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.
And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?
As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.
nerevarine1138 wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »I can see a few problems with the idea of removing them from the game world.
Prime example, what if you got invited to a group with them in, or they to a group you were in, for a Dungeon or something?
Then it would be like it is now when one of your party members is out of phase with you. All you would see is the arrow marking where they should be. So then you would have the option to un-ignore them or, if you were adamant about not playing with them, leaving the group.
And their spell effects? Would they do anything to you?
As nice as this idea sounds in some weird utopia where you would never run the risk of needing to interact with other characters, there's a myriad of technical problems.
No, there aren't. This is a visual ban only. We don't see anything they do. Not them, not their spells, etc. The effect on the world of these characters is unchanged. If they loot a chest, it's still looted. I just don't see them do it. If I'm fighting a guard, and they cast a heal on me. I don't see them or the spell, but the effects are applied and their bounty goes up. If they are in the bank with me, their pet and spells are invisible to me, so now I can see clearly
This isn't a blanket ban of ALL characters, only those (as with chat) that you choose to NOT interact with. There will still be 1000's of other characters to interact with.
I'm not saying this is eay, but it is doable, and valuable.
timidobserver wrote: »If someone sends offensive messages that needs to be stopped immediately, but im not in support of policing where players can stand and what they can wear.
For what it's worth, I'll add in my vote to move the thread back to General. This place was just chosen to sink this topic in a corner of the forum that is not frequented by the "second side of the discussion", so to speak. I myself only found it from the "Participated"-view.We're moving this thread to the Fiction and Roleplaying section as it is more fitting than the General Discussion area.
Reconsider your decision. It is not RP if we talk about rude behaviour ingame.
I would like to write more about my feelings and impressions regarding this "move topic"-decision, but that would be neither helpful nor appropriate for the topic of this conversation.
This being moved to the rp thread makes COMPLETE SENSE. It is rp that is being harassed, not general play. A good discussion on fixes among the rp community is better than a general thread with people simply not caring about the outcome, but wanting to put their two cents in. Obviously the discussion is being followed, so flaming the staff is pointless an unproductive.
I think there have been some great ideas from all sides, and the general discussion of the thread has been pretty well presented, minus the ones I guess the staff had to remove.
The only other thing I can think of is to make those trying to troll the event into unwilling participants "All eyes were pointed downward as the adventurers mourned the passing of their beloved comrade, except for the town fool who believed this was a suitable time to disrobe and express himself through interpretative dance." Yes it may change the poinancy of the mood you were striving for, but I have found more often than not if you just make the trolls really uncomfortable or perhaps present the idea they're actually involved they will leave. In some cases they might enjoy it so much you will have converted them and gained a new roleplaying ally.
MornaBaine wrote: »Found this interesting and relevant article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/111186/AGDC_The_Psychology_Of_MMO_Players_Community_Managers_Psychologists_Speak.php
The section on griefing was particularly interesting. It begins, "Of course, griefing -- or intentionally disrupting and degrading another user's gameplay experience -- is a major problem in MMOs. "
This, from an article written clear back in 2008. Yet it seems pretty clear that the gaming industry itself has learned virtually nothing since the "best" most of them will still bother to do is give you an option to ignore chat only. Now ZOS SAYS they take player harassment seriously and that they "encourage" people to report players they feel are harassing them. But when you already KNOW that there's no way a GM will be able to deal with the situation in a timely manner and STOP it AS IT IS HAPPENING, and of course even when they do respond we are never allowed to know if our harassers ARE being disciplined in any way, how does that in any way really help players or motivate them to report in the first place? The truth is, MOST people just give up. Which seems (it may not BE but certainly FEELS like it) to be exactly what the powers that be here want.
In real life, people are capable of an incredibly wide variety of behaviors. People go to a bar on Saturday night and church on Sunday morning and manage not to get kicked out of either. How? They don't sing hymns and pray while at the bar, and don't smoke and drink during the sermon.
I'm not into RP, and likely never will be. With such stringent population caps, an RP event in Cyrodiil that isn't directly related to the taking or defending of keeps or strategic targets would result in a thorough trouncing against overwhelming odds, thereby ruining experience those who aren't RP'ing. It fosters a dislike, which evolves into a hatred between both sides of the isle, ruining the gaming experience for all. And you can bet that hatred will extend outside of Cyrodiil, to any vet or non-vet zone.
With this game's setup, I don't think 'visually' blocking someone is able to happen. But what ZOS can do, and it shouldn't be that difficult, is to create a new Cyrodiil campaign, specifically labeled (RP only). That would calm down a lot of the hatred, let it diffuse in some people. That would also give ZOS a tighter grip on disciplinary action against those who seek to disturb your RP events in and out of Cyrodiil. I'll stop now before I drone on too long.
With this game's setup, I don't think 'visually' blocking someone is able to happen.