Harrassment Already A Larger Problem

MornaBaine

Darthryan wrote: »

A true role player would have incorporated that jerk as being part of the funeral. like maybe hes a nephew who was really upset and thought that doing bath salts before the funeral would cheer him up. Someone could have maybe emoted what that guys was saying as he was dancing.

That's an amusing take on the problem but I think we both know you are just trying to be funny and not offering anything in the way of real solutions. There have been times when we HAVE had fun with trolls and played along with them. But the point is we shouldn't have to.

Gilvoth

Valymer wrote: »

World PvP, problem solved.

this ^

second option would be to just take your group to cryodiil = problem solved.

MornaBaine

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

World PvP, problem solved.

this ^

second option would be to just take your group to cryodiil = problem solved.

Sadly, not. Because it's our own faction members doing the trolling.

nerevarine1138

Turelus wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It sounds like the chat probably crossed the line in to trolling, but sadly, there are no rules in-game (nor should there be) to prevent people from dancing in their underwear anywhere that they like.

Oh yes, there should be no rules to stop people being asses and deliberately griefing other players .. of course not.

Your admiration of ZOS is .. admirable.

Nothing to do with admiration for this particular company. Policing in-game chat is fine, but policing in-game dancing? It's just completely impractical and pointless. How do you determine when it's fine to dance around in your underwear and when it becomes trolling? What about using the mystery meat to vomit in front of people? Or running around in a goblin costume? Where do we draw the line?

Unless ZO is prepared to cordon off specific areas for RP events (a terrible idea), then the presence of people who aren't taking part in the event is a given. And since those people aren't taking part, it's ludicrous for RPers to expect their behavior to be regulated any more strictly than it would be elsewhere.

Then it should be based via each reported event. Did the player deliberately knowing full well there was RP going on take his clothes off and troll people, or was he stood randomly in a bar doing it while AFK.

If someone is quite obviously doing it just to interrupt roleplayers then why should they get a free pass because it's only dancing.

That player "knowing" that this is an RP event (which, trust me, many people will not know, even if they see the giant wall of bad-dialogue emotes in their chat window) doesn't mean that their behavior suddenly has to change.

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

newtinmpls

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

MornaBaine

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

I would ask the same thing.

nerevarine1138

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

MornaBaine

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

phreatophile

MornaBaine wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

World PvP, problem solved.

this ^

second option would be to just take your group to cryodiil = problem solved.

Sadly, not. Because it's our own faction members doing the trolling.

Got any friends in other factions who might find killing a naked dancing troll (which is nothing like an overfed long-haired leaping gnome) to be a bit of fun? Perhaps another RP guild, call it mutual aid.

Rune_Relic

phreatophile wrote: »

How about a 'jerk-wad, shard where the players doing the trolling can be sent. Sooner or later these players will find themselves surrounded by only like minded individuals. They all deserve each other anyway.

Also this thread belongs in General as its not about roleplaying it's about players harassing other players. You all must be hoping that sweeping this thread into a dark corner will cause it to die in obscurity. A lot of us simply use the 'recent' button, so hopefully it takes awhile to die.

You mean send them to oblivion ?
:d

MornaBaine

Rune_Relic wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

How about a 'jerk-wad, shard where the players doing the trolling can be sent. Sooner or later these players will find themselves surrounded by only like minded individuals. They all deserve each other anyway.

Also this thread belongs in General as its not about roleplaying it's about players harassing other players. You all must be hoping that sweeping this thread into a dark corner will cause it to die in obscurity. A lot of us simply use the 'recent' button, so hopefully it takes awhile to die.

You mean send them to oblivion ?
:d

Oh if only... LOL

In further news, one of my guildies who also reported the yucky events of the OP, after letting ZOS know that their usual "put them on ignore" stock email answer was NOT sufficient, got an email back telling her that we could put in a ticket to request GM presence at RP events in future. Perhaps we should all just start doing that each and every time we have any sort of RP event? After all, I've never been to one that WASN'T trolled at some point. Maybe THEN ZOS might realize that this "system" is inadequate? What do you think?

Jeremy

desciviib14_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This idea that the so-called role-players do not bother anyone just isn't true though. I've been annoyed and irritated by them on several occasions through-out my gaming.

And I have been annoyed by PvPers, and so on and so on.

I think there is a qualitative difference between a play-style that doesn't appeal to a particular person - and someone putting time and energy into being disrespectful.

One player is going of their way to be a fruity-sounding cartoon knight - the other is going out of their way to be a disruptive underwear dancer. Both play-styles have the potential to annoy others depending on the individuals involved.

If there is a qualitative difference in the two - it's an objective one that would be impossible to measure consistently and fairly. You will never be able to force people to be respectful to one another so might as well not even try. Not to mention everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes respect and what doesn't anyway.

but many if not most that are making an active attempt to be a nuisance cant help but make sure you know by stating so. As OP pointed out, where they said that this is what they do to RPers. That should be a violation of TOS. If they are smart enough to just dance and do their own thing then that's another story but we all know that its attention the trolls/nuisance players crave and most of them will be unable to help themselves if they are ignored and will make sure to make inflammatory statements; whereas, those who are truly just playing their own way should really not be concerned with what others are doing around them in all fairness. It's not about making special rules for RPers but rather about weeding out the differences between those who use the game and it's content for their own fun and those who abuse the ability to interact with other players without consequences.

Describing pixelated characters dancing in their underwear as abusing other players is a bit of stretch.

My point is that players dancing in their underwear may annoy you while players speaking fruity medieval speech and having pretend funerals annoys them.

Your point that players shouldn't concern themselves with what others are doing around them is well taken: but that could just as easily apply to the guy dancing in his underwear as it does the so-called Role Players. So put the underwear dancer on ignore and don't pay attention to what he is doing - just as you are asking others to do in regards to Role Players and their events.

Gyudan

I agree with OP.

Even taking a guild screenshot becomes difficult with all the trolls roaming around.

Huckdabuck

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

The abusive chat is a no no.....he could have been swinging his sword, dancing, and spamming spells in your general area from launch until the game is unplugged.....how exactly does that grief anyone? Actually I'd enjoy watching someone dance in their underwear while at a funeral (would definitely lighten the somberness). There are tons of suggestions in the thread for what you can do to ease any perceived griefing that may occur in the future......try using one.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This idea that the so-called role-players do not bother anyone just isn't true though. I've been annoyed and irritated by them on several occasions through-out my gaming.

And I have been annoyed by PvPers, and so on and so on.

I think there is a qualitative difference between a play-style that doesn't appeal to a particular person - and someone putting time and energy into being disrespectful.

One player is going of their way to be a fruity-sounding cartoon knight - the other is going out of their way to be a disruptive underwear dancer. Both play-styles have the potential to annoy others depending on the individuals involved.

If there is a qualitative difference in the two - it's an objective one that would be impossible to measure consistently and fairly. You will never be able to force people to be respectful to one another so might as well not even try. Not to mention everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes respect and what doesn't anyway.

I see this argument as a thinly veiled attempt to say that people should simply be allowed to be as rude as they want and everyone else just has to take it. You are certainly welcome to that opinion. However, what is being asked for actually HELPS you and all of the deliberately rude people out there. If the tools to ignore you and/or escape from you are placed in the hands of players then there is no further need of GM involvement or of running the risk of being censured for your bad behavior which you seem to find so unfair. The proper in-game tools in place of an extended /ignore function that would make you simply disappear to the people you are trying to grief or are simply offending by being in your underwear and/or private instancing for groups would allow you to be as perfectly awful as you want without fear of censure... because your efforts to be awful could simply be avoided altogether.

Though, to be truthful...I think that's the part you don't like. Isn't it?

I'm not deliberately rude to people. In fact I go out of my way to be helpful. But that is beside the point: and there is no need for you to try and describe how I play this game because you don't know.

I've also already said I supported your idea to add a feature that would allow you to both ignore the character and make them disappear. So your comments don't make a lot of sense that I wouldn't like it. I was not the person dancing at your funeral in their underwear: so you're aiming your hostility at the wrong person.

I may not always agree with the way a player chooses to play: but I will defend their right to play as they want so long as they don't cheat etc. I am generally opposed to trying to control and dictate the behavior of others - especially in as benign an environment as an online video game.

I just don't consider a player dancing in their underwear and ridiculing a make-believe funeral as any kind of significant harassment that should warrant punishment.

nerevarine1138

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

phreatophile

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This idea that the so-called role-players do not bother anyone just isn't true though. I've been annoyed and irritated by them on several occasions through-out my gaming.

And I have been annoyed by PvPers, and so on and so on.

I think there is a qualitative difference between a play-style that doesn't appeal to a particular person - and someone putting time and energy into being disrespectful.

One player is going of their way to be a fruity-sounding cartoon knight - the other is going out of their way to be a disruptive underwear dancer. Both play-styles have the potential to annoy others depending on the individuals involved.

If there is a qualitative difference in the two - it's an objective one that would be impossible to measure consistently and fairly. You will never be able to force people to be respectful to one another so might as well not even try. Not to mention everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes respect and what doesn't anyway.

I see this argument as a thinly veiled attempt to say that people should simply be allowed to be as rude as they want and everyone else just has to take it. You are certainly welcome to that opinion. However, what is being asked for actually HELPS you and all of the deliberately rude people out there. If the tools to ignore you and/or escape from you are placed in the hands of players then there is no further need of GM involvement or of running the risk of being censured for your bad behavior which you seem to find so unfair. The proper in-game tools in place of an extended /ignore function that would make you simply disappear to the people you are trying to grief or are simply offending by being in your underwear and/or private instancing for groups would allow you to be as perfectly awful as you want without fear of censure... because your efforts to be awful could simply be avoided altogether.

Though, to be truthful...I think that's the part you don't like. Isn't it?

I'm not deliberately rude to people. In fact I go out of my way to be helpful. But that is beside the point: and there is no need for you to try and describe how I play this game because you don't know.

I've also already said I supported your idea to add a feature that would allow you to both ignore the character and make them disappear. So your comments don't make a lot of sense that I wouldn't like it. I was not the person dancing at your funeral in their underwear: so you're aiming your hostility at the wrong person.

I may not always agree with the way a player chooses to play: but I will defend their right to play as they want so long as they don't cheat etc. I am generally opposed to trying to control and dictate the behavior of others - especially in as benign an environment as an online video game.

I just don't consider a player dancing in their underwear and ridiculing a make-believe funeral as any kind of significant harassment that should warrant punishment.

Well that's where you and ZOS disagree. Because it is actionable and it should be. Bullying should never be condoned or tolerated and while it may seem insignificant in this context that's still exactly what it is.

Jeremy

amasuriel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

There have been a few debates recently about how problematic something needs to be before it’s reported. But the answer is simple, if you find something offensive or harassing, report it.

It’s true that some of the reports we get in-game (and on the forums) are determined to not break the rules, and are closed without action. However, these determinations are quick to make, and we’d rather have a few unnecessary reports than find out people aren’t reporting content that should be – particularly in-game.

There are two ways to report bad behavior in-game. For chat, right click on the offensive content in the chat window and choose the report option. If someone isn’t in chat, look at them and open the “interact” wheel – one of the options is “report player.”

On the forums, there’s a report button on the bottom right of every post that shows up when you hover your cursor there.

The bold part troubles me, if a player reports something do you not think at that point in time it is problematic enough for you the company to take a look at it. From what i am reading from your statement is that instead of following up on reports or such, you moderate the reports and pick and choose which ones to follow up on instead of following up on everything. That actually answers a lot of questions for me from previous reports that i never heard anything about, it was as if they had just poofed.......

You misunderstood. Alan wasn't referring to debates within the moderation team but about the debates that have been coming up on this forum between players (i.e. this thread). The moderators are not picking and choosing which tickets get followed up on, but as stated, they may not always find someone in violation of the rules.

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Policing in-game chat is fine, but policing in-game dancing? It's just completely impractical and pointless. How do you determine when it's fine to dance around in your underwear and when it becomes trolling? What about using the mystery meat to vomit in front of people? Or running around in a goblin costume? Where do we draw the line?.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you cannot ... truly cannot ... tell the difference between "acting weird" and deliberately attempting to sabotage someone else's enjoyment of the game?

Its not "what was done". it's context. Disrespect. Pattern. Does that really truly not make sense to you?

Well, again, I have to respectfully disagree.

Sometimes I ride naked on my guar through Argonian temples. At what point do we believe that behavior constitutes trolling? More importantly, how will a GM looking through game logs be able to make any kind of objective determination about that?

That's also a problem.

For every person who is disciplined for actually intending to offend someone it is likely two people will be disciplined for having some light-hearted fun or some misinterpreted gesture taken the wrong way.

I don't think its all that grey an area, it's pretty clear when your actions are intended to impact other people, even if you consider it "lighthearted".

If you want to ride naked on your guar, no one cares. If you want to ride naked on your guar repeatedly through a group of people doing something else (grinding, RPing, questing, doesn't matter) for the purpose of disrupting their activity then its a problem.

The OP isn't complaining because a guy wearing no pants walked through the RP event, the complaint is about someone spending long periods of time actively disrupting other people. Again the clothes, the emotes, and the activity being disrupted are irrelevant to the point.

This same argument could made by the players who find the role playing events annoying because they spend large amounts of time in town disrupting their normal activities.

MornaBaine

Huckdabuck wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

The abusive chat is a no no.....he could have been swinging his sword, dancing, and spamming spells in your general area from launch until the game is unplugged.....how exactly does that grief anyone? Actually I'd enjoy watching someone dance in their underwear while at a funeral (would definitely lighten the somberness). There are tons of suggestions in the thread for what you can do to ease any perceived griefing that may occur in the future......try using one.

All of those suggestions boil down to, "Hide as well as you can from any possible trolls. Leave your activities if a troll comes along. Let them win every time.

Well if ZoS had provided us with any possible way TO avoid these people I would gladly do so. Unfortunately, they have not yet done so. Hence this thread.

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

There have been a few debates recently about how problematic something needs to be before it’s reported. But the answer is simple, if you find something offensive or harassing, report it.

It’s true that some of the reports we get in-game (and on the forums) are determined to not break the rules, and are closed without action. However, these determinations are quick to make, and we’d rather have a few unnecessary reports than find out people aren’t reporting content that should be – particularly in-game.

There are two ways to report bad behavior in-game. For chat, right click on the offensive content in the chat window and choose the report option. If someone isn’t in chat, look at them and open the “interact” wheel – one of the options is “report player.”

On the forums, there’s a report button on the bottom right of every post that shows up when you hover your cursor there.

The bold part troubles me, if a player reports something do you not think at that point in time it is problematic enough for you the company to take a look at it. From what i am reading from your statement is that instead of following up on reports or such, you moderate the reports and pick and choose which ones to follow up on instead of following up on everything. That actually answers a lot of questions for me from previous reports that i never heard anything about, it was as if they had just poofed.......

You misunderstood. Alan wasn't referring to debates within the moderation team but about the debates that have been coming up on this forum between players (i.e. this thread). The moderators are not picking and choosing which tickets get followed up on, but as stated, they may not always find someone in violation of the rules.

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Policing in-game chat is fine, but policing in-game dancing? It's just completely impractical and pointless. How do you determine when it's fine to dance around in your underwear and when it becomes trolling? What about using the mystery meat to vomit in front of people? Or running around in a goblin costume? Where do we draw the line?.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you cannot ... truly cannot ... tell the difference between "acting weird" and deliberately attempting to sabotage someone else's enjoyment of the game?

Its not "what was done". it's context. Disrespect. Pattern. Does that really truly not make sense to you?

Well, again, I have to respectfully disagree.

Sometimes I ride naked on my guar through Argonian temples. At what point do we believe that behavior constitutes trolling? More importantly, how will a GM looking through game logs be able to make any kind of objective determination about that?

That's also a problem.

For every person who is disciplined for actually intending to offend someone it is likely two people will be disciplined for having some light-hearted fun or some misinterpreted gesture taken the wrong way.

I don't think its all that grey an area, it's pretty clear when your actions are intended to impact other people, even if you consider it "lighthearted".

If you want to ride naked on your guar, no one cares. If you want to ride naked on your guar repeatedly through a group of people doing something else (grinding, RPing, questing, doesn't matter) for the purpose of disrupting their activity then its a problem.

The OP isn't complaining because a guy wearing no pants walked through the RP event, the complaint is about someone spending long periods of time actively disrupting other people. Again the clothes, the emotes, and the activity being disrupted are irrelevant to the point.

This same argument could made by the players who find the role playing events annoying because they spend large amounts of time in town disrupting their normal activities.

Alright, I'll play. Exactly how has a roleplay event you've encountered ever impeded your enjoyment of the game in a way you were unable to avoid?

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This idea that the so-called role-players do not bother anyone just isn't true though. I've been annoyed and irritated by them on several occasions through-out my gaming.

And I have been annoyed by PvPers, and so on and so on.

I think there is a qualitative difference between a play-style that doesn't appeal to a particular person - and someone putting time and energy into being disrespectful.

One player is going of their way to be a fruity-sounding cartoon knight - the other is going out of their way to be a disruptive underwear dancer. Both play-styles have the potential to annoy others depending on the individuals involved.

If there is a qualitative difference in the two - it's an objective one that would be impossible to measure consistently and fairly. You will never be able to force people to be respectful to one another so might as well not even try. Not to mention everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes respect and what doesn't anyway.

I see this argument as a thinly veiled attempt to say that people should simply be allowed to be as rude as they want and everyone else just has to take it. You are certainly welcome to that opinion. However, what is being asked for actually HELPS you and all of the deliberately rude people out there. If the tools to ignore you and/or escape from you are placed in the hands of players then there is no further need of GM involvement or of running the risk of being censured for your bad behavior which you seem to find so unfair. The proper in-game tools in place of an extended /ignore function that would make you simply disappear to the people you are trying to grief or are simply offending by being in your underwear and/or private instancing for groups would allow you to be as perfectly awful as you want without fear of censure... because your efforts to be awful could simply be avoided altogether.

Though, to be truthful...I think that's the part you don't like. Isn't it?

I'm not deliberately rude to people. In fact I go out of my way to be helpful. But that is beside the point: and there is no need for you to try and describe how I play this game because you don't know.

I've also already said I supported your idea to add a feature that would allow you to both ignore the character and make them disappear. So your comments don't make a lot of sense that I wouldn't like it. I was not the person dancing at your funeral in their underwear: so you're aiming your hostility at the wrong person.

I may not always agree with the way a player chooses to play: but I will defend their right to play as they want so long as they don't cheat etc. I am generally opposed to trying to control and dictate the behavior of others - especially in as benign an environment as an online video game.

I just don't consider a player dancing in their underwear and ridiculing a make-believe funeral as any kind of significant harassment that should warrant punishment.

Well that's where you and ZOS disagree. Because it is actionable and it should be. Bullying should never be condoned or tolerated and while it may seem insignificant in this context that's still exactly what it is.

But It is insignificant in this context.

We are not talking about a bully physically beating someone up. These are pixels you can place on ignore. There is no real bullying happening: and to call it as such makes light of actual bullying.

Jeremy

.

phreatophile wrote: »

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

.

phreatophile wrote: »

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?

I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.

I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

There have been a few debates recently about how problematic something needs to be before it’s reported. But the answer is simple, if you find something offensive or harassing, report it.

It’s true that some of the reports we get in-game (and on the forums) are determined to not break the rules, and are closed without action. However, these determinations are quick to make, and we’d rather have a few unnecessary reports than find out people aren’t reporting content that should be – particularly in-game.

There are two ways to report bad behavior in-game. For chat, right click on the offensive content in the chat window and choose the report option. If someone isn’t in chat, look at them and open the “interact” wheel – one of the options is “report player.”

On the forums, there’s a report button on the bottom right of every post that shows up when you hover your cursor there.

The bold part troubles me, if a player reports something do you not think at that point in time it is problematic enough for you the company to take a look at it. From what i am reading from your statement is that instead of following up on reports or such, you moderate the reports and pick and choose which ones to follow up on instead of following up on everything. That actually answers a lot of questions for me from previous reports that i never heard anything about, it was as if they had just poofed.......

You misunderstood. Alan wasn't referring to debates within the moderation team but about the debates that have been coming up on this forum between players (i.e. this thread). The moderators are not picking and choosing which tickets get followed up on, but as stated, they may not always find someone in violation of the rules.

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Policing in-game chat is fine, but policing in-game dancing? It's just completely impractical and pointless. How do you determine when it's fine to dance around in your underwear and when it becomes trolling? What about using the mystery meat to vomit in front of people? Or running around in a goblin costume? Where do we draw the line?.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you cannot ... truly cannot ... tell the difference between "acting weird" and deliberately attempting to sabotage someone else's enjoyment of the game?

Its not "what was done". it's context. Disrespect. Pattern. Does that really truly not make sense to you?

Well, again, I have to respectfully disagree.

Sometimes I ride naked on my guar through Argonian temples. At what point do we believe that behavior constitutes trolling? More importantly, how will a GM looking through game logs be able to make any kind of objective determination about that?

That's also a problem.

For every person who is disciplined for actually intending to offend someone it is likely two people will be disciplined for having some light-hearted fun or some misinterpreted gesture taken the wrong way.

I don't think its all that grey an area, it's pretty clear when your actions are intended to impact other people, even if you consider it "lighthearted".

If you want to ride naked on your guar, no one cares. If you want to ride naked on your guar repeatedly through a group of people doing something else (grinding, RPing, questing, doesn't matter) for the purpose of disrupting their activity then its a problem.

The OP isn't complaining because a guy wearing no pants walked through the RP event, the complaint is about someone spending long periods of time actively disrupting other people. Again the clothes, the emotes, and the activity being disrupted are irrelevant to the point.

This same argument could made by the players who find the role playing events annoying because they spend large amounts of time in town disrupting their normal activities.

Alright, I'll play. Exactly how has a roleplay event you've encountered ever impeded your enjoyment of the game in a way you were unable to avoid?

I said the same argument could be made. Players can choose to simply ignore the role play event if they want - just as you can ignore the trash talking underwear dancer if you want.

But if you choose to let either of them bother you - it will. It's the same concept either way. It's just your own personal bias that makes you feel as if you have more of a right to be annoyed by underwear dancing than they do by your roleplaying event.

Jeremy

Deleted lag

phreatophile

Jeremy wrote: »

But It is insignificant in this context.

We are not talking about a bully physically beating someone up. These are pixels you can place on ignore. There is no real bullying happening: and to call it as such makes light of actual bullying.

Not sure where you've been, but pixels is where the action is these days with bullying. Real physical bullying, even between minors, can land the bully in lasting legal trouble. Risk isn't in the bully's profile. In this situation, the bully can get their sociopathic thrill anonymously with no fear of their victim ever turning the tables like they can in real life.

Besides, if placing the churl on ignore made them invisible, the problem would be solved. It doesn't work that way. Right now, placing the troll on ignore just deprives one of the evidence needed to make a full report to the GMs.

nerevarine1138

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

And what if I find your RP event irritating and disrupting? Believe me, I've been more than a little ticked off to enter an inn and find a bunch of bad writers engaged in a terrible session of roleplaying, but I let it slide because they're just doing their thing. Following you around in my underwear may be irritating, but it isn't griefing.

Spamming spells at the dye stations when they first came out was griefing because it was a deliberate attempt to force lag and crashes on people trying to use the new system. It wasn't just a nuisance; it was a potentially game-stopping issue for people who were trying to utilize a major feature of that patch.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

.

phreatophile wrote: »

The thinly veiled contempt for role-players shown by most of the people defending this behavior is the problem.

All that is being asked for here is a mechanism to avoid griefers entirely. Without that, all you need do if RP annoys you is nothing. The Role-players simply wish to be left alone. But that's the point, isn't it. You know there's not a thing they can do about it. If they just put up with it, you've ruined their ability to have a fun event: Troll wins. If they report you, ZOS will do nothing and you've still ruined their evening: Troll wins. If the roleplayers snap and get into a chat confrontation, you've still ruined their fun: Troll wins. You can wrestle a pig, but you both get dirty and the pig likes it. People that get off on hurting others are bad people, especially when they search out people who have no means to defend themselves.

Pretending that the behavior in question is just somebody playing the game how they wish and the RPers happen to be there in the wrong place at the wrong time is dishonest at best.

Again, you think you're better than those nerdy role-players, so you grief them. This is an action on your part. For any sense of moral equivalence you need to simply ignore them and move on. Those role-players aren't doing anything to you but you get in their face anyway.

The OP's event was held in group chat, and they only started reacting with reports once the griefing started. Passive then reactive.

The griefers saw a likely target and set about to offend them with action and written word in chat. Active

These are not the same thing. There is no equivalence, so stop pretending there is.

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're having an RP event. Good for you. That doesn't mean that everyone passing through has to take part in a way that you find appropriate. And the standards you apply to it are exactly why the GMs shouldn't be enforcing rules on character behavior unless it actually crosses the line in to griefing.

So how does sticking around, dancing naked, pushing through the same group of the same people and spamming zone chat with abusive language for an hour real-time NOT constitute greifing?

Standing around, dancing naked, and being in the same area as people having a roleplay session doesn't constitute griefing.

Abusive chat does constitute trolling. And they already punish that.

That (the abusive chat) was going on as well as the offender constantly swinging his weapons at us along with the dancing and spamming spells. So, you still think that wasn't deliberate and actionable griefing?

As I said on the first page of this thread: the abusive chat is absolutely something he should be actioned for.

Swinging his weapons around, dancing, and using abilities? Without the accompanying abusive chat, it's not something that anyone should be hoping a GM punishes him for.

Why not? His intent to disrupt and irritate other players was absolutely clear. If he had been following me around doing this while I quested I would have reported him for it as well. Just as the people who mobbed the dye stations when they first released and spammed spells so that people could not use them were reported and eventually dealt with. If some freak in real life followed me around acting like he was stabbing me, dancing and only wearing his underwear, you can bet I'd be calling the cops! LOL

So you think ZOS has a responsibility to make sure other players do not irritate you? Is that basically what you are saying?

I am saying ZOS has the responsibility to enable tools useable by ALL players so that we can make sure other players do not deliberately and with malice aforethought ruin our leisure time.

I also see you are unable to come up with a personal example of a roleplayer having ruined or impeded your game experience. If you can't back up the very argument you presented then you really have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

I would be fine with them giving you the tools to make other players vanish as I said.

There has been many instances where other players have annoyed/irritated me on this game and many others. Rather or not you would consider them role players or engaged in some roleplaying event is irrelevant.

For example: I've had numerous players dance around me in their underwear and talk trash. It never even occurred to me that I should call a GM over it. I've seen entire guilds dancing in their panties before inside the bank and talking nonsense. I've had bare chested nords and cat people attempt to make out with me in the rift.

I think the real issue here in this thread is that people who consider themselves role players for what ever reason believe that being a role player gives them some special privilege not to be disturbed. That's what I'm trying to highlight.