LariahHunding wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »farrier_ESO wrote: »If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.
Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.
From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.
http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/
Well worth reading even for players.
A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.
Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.
Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.
My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.
If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.
It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.
The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.
Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.
I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.
I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?
I think it's fairly obvious you and many of us here are simply not going to agree on this issue. While not bullying under any defined laws, I will contend that this sort of behavior is driven by the very same sort of personality maladjustment that causes bullying. It is an unfortunate fact that when placed in a situation where they know there will be no consequences for their actions a disappointingly large number of people will behave in pretty appalling ways towards other people. And that is what is happening here. So, one way or another, it needs to be addressed and stopped. My, and most others people's here, preferred method is the one that doesn't actually punish these people but simply makes it so we don't have to put up with them. So arguments about whether or not it's legally "bullying" are indeed moot. Therefore I will no longer engage with you over this difference of opinion as it is fairly obvious we are never going to agree on it. Have a nice day.
Fair enough.
Though I should point out people act in pretty appalling ways toward each other in real life too: even when there are consequences.
So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.
Typical victim blaming. Victim is being too sensitive.
MornaBaine wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?
If you read the original post you will know that there indeed was a specific instance of harassment that prompted this discussion. .
newtinmpls wrote: »MornaBaine wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?
If you read the original post you will know that there indeed was a specific instance of harassment that prompted this discussion. .
If you are regular reader of this thread, you might have noticed that I have posted more than once. So just to clarify, my question was specifically related to the information I'd posted on the 29th about an RP even being mentioned by the ZoS team on a podcast. Since they had mentioned it - I wondered if it was handled appropriately.
newtinmpls wrote: »speaking of ZoS supporting RP, i watched the youtube of the most recent ... whadycallit .... the every-other-week podcast thingie and I was interested to note that they were announcing planned RP events.
I'm hoping that means a GM will be on hand on troll-watch duty. Sad, but possibly needed.
Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.
I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.
I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?
I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.
Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)
Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.
I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.
I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?
I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.
Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)
How do you decide which player should have to move?
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.
I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.
If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.
If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.
Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.
I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.
I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?
I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.
Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)
How do you decide which player should have to move?
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.
newtinmpls wrote: »
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.
If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.
If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.
It's not rocket science here.
newtinmpls wrote: »
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.
If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.
If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.
It's not rocket science here.
So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.
newtinmpls wrote: »If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.
If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.
It's not rocket science here.
So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.
I like the idea of expanding /ignore player to include not seeing what they are doing in game. That would be much less work for our understaffed GMs.
I like the idea of expanding /ignore player to include not seeing what they are doing in game. That would be much less work for our understaffed GMs.
SeñorCinco wrote: »This adopted lewd behavior is written off in my mind through my own role playing. These skeever droppings are just a bunch of crazed skooma junkies. I don't look at other characters as other players. Every rendering in front of me is just another NPC. An NPC that I choose to interact with or not.
I envision an in depth implementation of the Dark Brotherhood or the Morag Tong. If done correctly, these pitiful souls will be bathed in their own blood from a humble letter sent to the Night Mother. For me, that would be more satisfying than a PM to a GM.
Nonetheless, I support the idea of a mechanic tied to the ignore option.
Sometimes I have my own fun with them, and they leave in a huff. Oh well, at my age, I get my entertainment when I can.
newtinmpls wrote: »
newtinmpls wrote: »
Example, on another game, a male elf kept dancing in front of rp'ers, especially the ones sitting down so that they were waist level. I started calling him my small breasted female elf slave, and ordering him to dance more. I knew I had him when he started feeling the need to say "I am a guy"....of course I just ignored that and rp'ed him as my female slave.
He left.
"She isn't much up top, but then most elves are small. Look at her dance though! Dance slave dance!"
Example, on another game, a male elf kept dancing in front of rp'ers, especially the ones sitting down so that they were waist level. I started calling him my small breasted female elf slave, and ordering him to dance more. I knew I had him when he started feeling the need to say "I am a guy"....of course I just ignored that and rp'ed him as my female slave.
He left.
"She isn't much up top, but then most elves are small. Look at her dance though! Dance slave dance!"
MornaBaine wrote: »
How do you decide which player should have to move?
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.
I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.
If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.
If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.
One last time. There are no such areas. Nor should it be roleplayers who are forced to try to find them in order to avoid harassment. And let's just call it harassment because that's exactly what it is.
domenthechief wrote: »civilizedsavage wrote: »Player housing, yeah...best case scenario. Solver of most RP'ers problems.
They know we want it, but no response except the generic, "Oh, that would be cool, but no immediate plans."
grammar edit.
PvP arena? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.
PvP for justice system? Oh, we were thinking about that, it would be cool. No plans at the moment, though.
Listening to the majority of people who don't want p2w items in crown store? Oh, that would be cool, but no immediate plans, though.
Releasing all the "ALREADY FINISHED" DLCs as it was promised? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.
Implementing some of the most important Add-Ons into the game to make our UI better? Oh, that would be cool, no immediate plans, though.
Fixing the lag in Cyrodiil? Uh, oh, that would be cool. No immediate plans, though, so we'll just decrease the player cap.
Horse racing? OH, we mentioned that about two weeks after release, right? Uh, no immediate plans, though.
MornaBaine wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony.
If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.
If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.
It's not rocket science here.
So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.
You keep completely misrepresenting what is happening despite having it explained several times. We're not talking about the ubiquitous underwear dancers in banks. We're talking about those players who will stand directly in your face spamming spells and doing their best to disrupt and distract from whatever you are doing. Just move, you say? They follow you. When all I can see on my screen is a seizure inducing light show and the person doing it refuses to stop, that's player harassment. And until they give us the tools to actually make these people invisible then yes, GMs MUST take an active hand in policing this kind of behavior. Yes, there ARE better ways to deal with this. And that is what is being asked for.
icebladess wrote: »I like how he ignores my post, cause he is trying to fight a losing battle.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.[/quote][
MornaBaine wrote: »Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.
I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.
I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?
I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.
Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)
How do you decide which player should have to move?
The player dancing in his underwear has just as much right to be at the location as does the player role playing a funeral ceremony. To try and judge a player's right to perform emotes at certain locations based on their intent would be impossible to enforce and wouldn't be worth a fraction of the time it would require.
I also can't relate to adjectives such as coercion or bullying being used in this situation. And why would you be defenseless? You can emote them back if you want and have all of the same tools/weapons they have. So I don't understand the defenseless claim.
If a player continuously follows or stalks another player then I believe some action should be taken. That would be a mild form of video game harassment. But I don't see using emotes during an RP event in that same category. I just see it as other players goofing off in a public area with emotes and I think that should be allowed.
If Role Players want to avoid the reactions of their fellow players I think it's incumbent on them to find a more isolated area to RP in.
One last time. There are no such areas. Nor should it be roleplayers who are forced to try to find them in order to avoid harassment. And let's just call it harassment because that's exactly what it is.
newtinmpls wrote: »I'd said:newtinmpls wrote: »If two peeps show up, and one starts to dance, and another starts to weep and dig a grave, then I doubt they would care much about each other.
If a group are gathered together, and a new person walks by and says "whatcha doin" and they say "having a funeral" and then he starts dancing in his undies - anyone with more than two working brain cells can figure out s/he's being a jerk, and should be ignored/modded/reported or whatever.
It's not rocket science here.
So ignore him or her. That's fine. But expecting the game masters to ban or remove jerks who are using emotes you don't approve of is more than a bit unreasonable.
This is not "using e-motes I don't approve of" - since personally I love the rich options we have (and which I could RMEMBER them a bit better - but that's another issue)
What I mean is behavior deliberately designed to distress/mock/interfere with another player in an ongoing way (i.e. for more than a minute real-time).
So for example, if my character is in the middle of digging a grave for a dead horse in front of a bank (to use an example that happened in Daggerfall a while back) and a character walks by and say ... flips me the bird (I don't actually recall there being an e-mote for that, but stipulate that there was one) and walks on by ... I don't really care.
If said other player continues to hop around my charcter, strips down to his undies and basically bops and emotes (and possibly says derogatory things in chat) they are not just "using a e-mote" they are putting energy and time into being a jerk. I think that should require some sort of response.
The ideal (meaning both most convenient and most effective) would be if I had an /ignore X option that not only would block their chat, but would also block their visuals (effectively putting us out of phase with each other). They could still (by definition) "use whatever e-mote they wanted" but not be doing it in a way to successfull cause anyone else distress.