Harrassment Already A Larger Problem

Sengra

Bulregar wrote: »

But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

There are no servers, just one European and one North American megaserver. And the different campaigns for PVP (Cyrodiil) where the three alliances fight each other.
And since the PVE zones have all kinds of phasing and grouping issues, spontaneous open RP is not really possible there outside of events or tavern nights (and even for that you have to join a guild so you can port to these peoples' phase). The only place where cross-fraction RP and open RP is really possible is Cyrodiil. I love that it's a PVP zone, which makes questing actually suspenseful, and I wouldn't mind the occasional attack from roamers, if it would only be possible to RP there (without forming yet another guild so people from different factions can communicate).

It's kind of tricky and takes a lot of organisation to roleplay in TESO, which makes griefing a real nuisance if people just won't stop. I've never had any major problems so far, just the odd comment in chat (I don't roleplay in English) and some spamming of abilities/naked dancing on tables. But if it happened during a plot session with a lot of RPers ... I don't know. I'm against too much policing of people because it could lead to more negative feelings and even hatred, but being able to ignore people and make them disappear could be a solution.

And I'm all for an RP version of Cyrodiil, preferably one for each megasever! I just don't know if it wouldn't attract the griefers even more.

MornaBaine

Bulregar wrote: »

Now I am new to ESO - really new, I've yet to buy the game on steam, but I have been roleplaying for a long, long time. Mostly in World of Warcraft and surprisingly Masquerade. On Roleplay servers there's nothing really wrong with Roleplaying - in fact if you're not roleplaying on the server, you're gonna have a bad time. But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

Excellent question. The answer is, in my opinion, rather annoying. Before launch we were told there would be a "roleplaying shard." There was going to be a questionnaire where you could indicate your preferred playstyle and you'd then be grouped with other players of the same playstyle. From what I understand this was, rather obviously, a popular idea and had wide support. I don't think anyone knows why it was dropped. If anyone does, I'd love for them to chime in there and explain what happened.

Now this thread is not actually about roleplaying but, rather, player harassment, and was originally posted in general discussion. Since the powers that be, however, have decided it is about roelplaying despite being told the contrary, we may as well go ahead and talk about roleplaying as well.

ESO is an MMORPG, like all other MMORPGs, which indicates in its very name that its a roleplaying game. Yet, despite this, there is a large prevalence of these games not supporting roleplay in any meaningful way. During development they tend to promise the moon and some of them even debut with RP servers. Sadly, I've yet to see or even hear of a major title that actually enforces any ruleset placed on the RP servers. I watched this happen on Age of Conan where roleplayers on the RP server were constantly and without surcease griefed by trolls. At least there, as it was an open world PvP server, players had the ability to make the worst of them suffer as lousy a play experience as they forced on us. But eventually the powers that be closed down ALL the RP servers. And now I wouldn't touch that game with a 10 foot pole, which is heartbreaking because it opened with an incredibly rich RP community. Which is now, of course, completely nonexistent.

ESO does a GREAT job of lip service towards roleplayers. If you look at things like the Tamriel Chronicle and the way they showcase player art, stories (a few of my own have even appeared there), lore exploration, etc., you would think, at first glance, that this would be a GREAT environment for roleplayers where the game itself really supports that playstyle. But the sad truth is that they do not. They "encourage" reporting of trolls who grief roleplay but clearly have an inadequate GM staff to deal with the problem. They give us an /ignore function that will let us no longer see abusive chat directed at us but do not provide us with any tools to deal with the far more popular form of griefing that involves players following you around or simply refusing to leave you alone, jumping up and down in your face and spamming flashy spells and weapons effects in order to disrupt and distract your gameplay experience. Since they will not come out and say they ARE looking into ways to implement tools for players that will allow us to no longer see these incredibly annoying and selfish people who are bent on ruining our enjoyment I can only assume they are NOT doing anything towards this end.

This is especially problematical because of the megaserver and the way things are instanced here. Or, more accurately, the way they are NOT instanced. In many other games, if you enter an instanced area, you find yourself alone in that area or only with those people who are in your group. That only seems to be true here if you are doing one of the 4 player dungeons. So there is absolutely no way you can go anywhere with a group of roleplayers to "get away" from the rest of the server and spin your stories in peace. There are also no guild cities here where you can go with just your guild members and those you have grouped in order to enjoy a troll-free roleplay experience. Nor is there player housing that could serve the same purpose. So you are, at all times and in all places within this game, exposed to the malicious will and whim of others.

Honestly, if I had known this was going to be the case going in, I would have never purchased this game. Nor will I, even now, recommend it to people who are looking for a good roleplay experience. For despite the fact that this game, at the moment, still has a really rich and die hard roleplay community who loves the ES universe and hangs in there hoping things will get better for us, I have no confidence that it will. Because, truthfully, this issue seems to be incredibly insignificant to ZOS.

newtinmpls

Bulregar wrote: »

On Roleplay servers there's nothing really wrong with Roleplaying - in fact if you're not roleplaying on the server, you're gonna have a bad time. But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

Are you saying that it's inappropriate elsewhere?

Rojnaar

@Istateres That wasn't a bug, it was quest phasing I believe. Still quite possible with new characters. I suppose that could work, if an RP interface setting was there, that would phase you in some way to only see others with that interface setting turned on. That seems pretty massive though, as it would have to apply to all zones. I could see it as exploitable in pvp as well, a raid phasing themselves out to pass by a blockade, then phasing in to take them from behind. We both know their isn't enough integrity in the player base to not have them exploit some way.


@newtinmpls I doubt Bulregar was trying to say it like that, don't close off the whole of the comment with such defensiveness. Just as you might consider 'griefing' inappropriate, others really do consider some of the RP "timing" inappropriate. More, I think if RP had a designated campaign, GM's could single out and punish harsher, the idiots who purposefully try to interrupt your experience. As things stand now, all campaigns are pretty much 'anything goes'

I'm for an RP campaign, but if they make it open world pvp, it would be ruined for you. We already have lot's of threads calling for duel's, and if the RP campaign was the only place to do it, you'd have every teenie with a glass cannon cheese build in there to ruin it for you.

newtinmpls

Rojnaar wrote: »

@newtinmpls I doubt Bulregar was trying to say it like that, don't close off the whole of the comment with such defensiveness.

This is why I should use emotes more, apparently - I have yet to find a way to ask someone what they meant that doesn't trigger something or other. <sigh> However if that's how it came off, by all means thanks for the heads-up.

Anyway in all seriousness I think that ESO is trying to do something ... .kind of strange. There are folks that play games that are casual and laid back - and these people are NOT who I am talking about.

There are folks who are PASSIONATE about RPing.

There are folks who are PASSIONATE about PvPing.

As far as I can tell, not too many folks fall into both of these categories. Here's the other thing - it's entirely possible for someone who is a die-hard RPer to have/want a quite day and hang out and quest without RPing. Same for a PvPer - say someone who is just logging on to do a writ or some simple thing.

ESO has a world/ servers where we are all mashed together (along with a lot of other folks who are NOT passionate) and we are all encouraged to

1-play nice (and) 2-possibly even learn from each other (and our diverse styles of play).

I think that's a really nifty goal - and to do it we'll all need to communicate well with each other and over-use (it will feel like it, I suspect) the various "reporting" options.

Audigy

I like the roleplaying that just happens, not the in your face one.

As example,

when you go into inns or to crafting stations, people always RP there. Its a bit disturbing and annoying, as they spam the whole chat with weird stuff that nobody really needs to know.
However, if you quest and some orc comes along and he asks you if he could lend you a few gold as you have such ragged clothes, then this is cool.

Roleplaying is a mixed bag and always has been. Some people exaggerate it and this might has given all Roleplayers a bad reputation.

Elsonso

MornaBaine wrote: »

Bulregar wrote: »

Now I am new to ESO - really new, I've yet to buy the game on steam, but I have been roleplaying for a long, long time. Mostly in World of Warcraft and surprisingly Masquerade. On Roleplay servers there's nothing really wrong with Roleplaying - in fact if you're not roleplaying on the server, you're gonna have a bad time. But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

Excellent question. The answer is, in my opinion, rather annoying. Before launch we were told there would be a "roleplaying shard." There was going to be a questionnaire where you could indicate your preferred playstyle and you'd then be grouped with other players of the same playstyle. From what I understand this was, rather obviously, a popular idea and had wide support. I don't think anyone knows why it was dropped. If anyone does, I'd love for them to chime in there and explain what happened.

I doubt that ZOS will step forward and say, but I can see two possible reasons.

1. Complexity of implementation. The inter-zone loading screens that people complain about are part of a system to place the player into a channel, and possibly layer, that is appropriate. The more complicated this process is, the longer it will take, and it may result in additional channels created under special circumstances beyond what we see today, which could impact overall system performance.

They obviously have the capability to segregate people based on criteria. In the middle of 2014, they implemented a system where guild mates would tend to be grouped together. It is possible that other criteria were also used, but all they have admitted to is guilds. I noticed this thanks to an add-on, but I think that it is still largely unknown to most players.

So, the capability is there, but one reason they are not going back to the questionnaires could be simply complexity balanced with the need to manage server resources appropriately.

2. Where is everybody? As people are divided up according to finer criteria, more channels will have fewer people in them. Role playing is not exactly the mainstream. It is like baseball, everyone knows what it is, but few people admit to doing it. We already have cases where people are out in Cadwell lands with few people around and saying that the servers are dead. There are probably a lot more Cadwell level people out there than role players. The chances that someone would check "Role playing" and then end up in a sparsely populated world could be high. They might wonder why no one plays this game, without understanding that they did it to themselves.

A system to group role players together would have to include other criteria, as well, or some players might find themselves in an empty world. This might end up not solving the problem this thread is about since role players would just end up in a channel used by non-role players.

Another thing to consider is that this is a multiplayer game and events, even in real life, do not always happen in total isolation. It is good to have a mix of different people doing different things.

I think that the best solution to the problem is instanced interior areas built around parties, not filters that group like-minded people together. Instanced interior areas hold their own special problems that would be similar to #1, though.

MornaBaine

lordrichter wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Bulregar wrote: »

Now I am new to ESO - really new, I've yet to buy the game on steam, but I have been roleplaying for a long, long time. Mostly in World of Warcraft and surprisingly Masquerade. On Roleplay servers there's nothing really wrong with Roleplaying - in fact if you're not roleplaying on the server, you're gonna have a bad time. But from what it sounds like, there are no dedicated Roleplaying servers. Why is that?

Excellent question. The answer is, in my opinion, rather annoying. Before launch we were told there would be a "roleplaying shard." There was going to be a questionnaire where you could indicate your preferred playstyle and you'd then be grouped with other players of the same playstyle. From what I understand this was, rather obviously, a popular idea and had wide support. I don't think anyone knows why it was dropped. If anyone does, I'd love for them to chime in there and explain what happened.

I doubt that ZOS will step forward and say, but I can see two possible reasons.

1. Complexity of implementation. The inter-zone loading screens that people complain about are part of a system to place the player into a channel, and possibly layer, that is appropriate. The more complicated this process is, the longer it will take, and it may result in additional channels created under special circumstances beyond what we see today, which could impact overall system performance.

They obviously have the capability to segregate people based on criteria. In the middle of 2014, they implemented a system where guild mates would tend to be grouped together. It is possible that other criteria were also used, but all they have admitted to is guilds. I noticed this thanks to an add-on, but I think that it is still largely unknown to most players.

So, the capability is there, but one reason they are not going back to the questionnaires could be simply complexity balanced with the need to manage server resources appropriately.

2. Where is everybody? As people are divided up according to finer criteria, more channels will have fewer people in them. Role playing is not exactly the mainstream. It is like baseball, everyone knows what it is, but few people admit to doing it. We already have cases where people are out in Cadwell lands with few people around and saying that the servers are dead. There are probably a lot more Cadwell level people out there than role players. The chances that someone would check "Role playing" and then end up in a sparsely populated world could be high. They might wonder why no one plays this game, without understanding that they did it to themselves.

A system to group role players together would have to include other criteria, as well, or some players might find themselves in an empty world. This might end up not solving the problem this thread is about since role players would just end up in a channel used by non-role players.

Another thing to consider is that this is a multiplayer game and events, even in real life, do not always happen in total isolation. It is good to have a mix of different people doing different things.

I think that the best solution to the problem is instanced interior areas built around parties, not filters that group like-minded people together. Instanced interior areas hold their own special problems that would be similar to #1, though.

There are so many fantastic settings for RP in this game but sadly most of them cannot be gotten to by groups with multi level characters. Hallin's Stand would be absolutely wonderful fro RP events but sadly it inevitably turns out there's people in the group who can't get there or are out of phase with the rest of the party if they do. There are also far too many places you can't seem to go BACK to once you've completed the quest. This makes RP space super scarce to begin with and just adds to the problem.

newtinmpls

Audigy wrote: »

I like the roleplaying that just happens, not the in your face one.

As example,

when you go into inns or to crafting stations, people always RP there. Its a bit disturbing and annoying, as they spam the whole chat with weird stuff that nobody really needs to know.

That's a new one on me.

The last weird bit of role playing (not that this is a glamorous or mature example) was when i was playing an orc/sorc/tank; we had grouped with a couple of others to do some delves and had taken a break. I (finally) noted the red eyes and pale complexion of one of my companions (he and I were the first two back from dinner break) and he promply took his shirt off and starts dancing (it was in a trader/carnival-esque area, so it was slightly less OOC than usual). So I did him one better and my orc takes off his upper garments and starts doing the male/redguard dance (which is definetly one to do ony partially dressed).

Meanwhile the formal/lady/breten/templar healer gets back into the game and we see over chat "Gentlemen ... what are you doing?"

It was cool that it was so embaressing because she called us on it in the role-play of it.

I dunno ... maybe you just had to be there.

wilsonirayb16_ESO

If you ever want to see online debauchery, you only need to travel back in time to 2000 and visit a PVP EverQuest server - or, just go play the classic emulator at Project 1999.

The reason that 'trolling' and harassment has become so prevalent is because it's anonymous and faceless. Even in the game where you can clearly see the player and interact with them, they don't have any accountability because they don't face communal oriented consequences. Sure they may occasionally get a suspension by the game staff, but that's about the extent of it.

Where as in older games like EverQuest renown and reputation was everything - from PVP to crafters to popular traders, it was all handled face to face (character to character to be specific).

We see similar examples of the falling away of any community because of dungeon finders in MMOs. It's often a case of click a button, wait five minutes, join random people, no one talks, at least one person has done the dungeon so they run off ahead, every one else follows behind, breeze through the easy content, end the dungeon and never see them again. No one spoke a word the entire time.

So really, the developers are making games that require very little group input, which is ironic since the 'end game' content is group mandatory.

Now look at the current entitlement narcissistic Facebook generation, of which involves online bullying. And why do we think that this happens so frequently? Because kids don't have to see the damage or the hurt on the faces of other children or their victims.

Sure, most kids these days are made weak by nanny state big government welfare dependent parents. A good kick in the a$$ and a few mouthfuls of dirt would go a long ways to setting them straight. But whomever they are and wherever they are from, they still don't deserve unwarranted abuse.

So what is the solution? An environment where things are player driven and therefore reputation is key.

Without it, every one will stay faceless and require no accountability for their behavior.

Or even better, developers need to stop wasting time on ridiculous PVP(especially in MMOs). If I want competition with other humans, I go outside ..you know where the people are. Trust me, you can always find someone willing to take you on, no matter what you are into.

seanvwolf

I think that once you ignore a player, they should always appear as flying insect in your world. Perhaps after while they'll learn to buzz off and occupy their time with the game they are supposed to be playing. This would be a solution for not just RPer's but everyone who feels the need to ignore someone.

I don't think Cyrodiil should be relied upon for RP events as that fills up the campaign queue nor do I think RP should be considered when making PvE dungeon spaces.

I do think RP instanced areas should be set aside (similar to the way dungeons and trials are performed), empty cities or small open areas with non-aggressive wildlife. They can make the entrances to these areas very apparent and the icon could be a Drama icon (happy and sad face). This icon should tell others that if you want to enter a specific groups instance you need to be invited by a group and that you can be kicked from the group instance (much like dungeons). These should be 24 man instances.

Other types of events in public zones are going to be impossible to control completely, but there should be ESO Guides that help the GM's reinforce the conditions of the agreement we all signed to play the game.

seanvwolf

wilsonirayb16_ESO wrote: »

Sure, most kids these days are made weak by nanny state big government welfare dependent parents. A good kick in the a$$ and a few mouthfuls of dirt would go a long ways to setting them straight. But whomever they are and wherever they are from, they still don't deserve unwarranted abuse.

Way to inject your totally unbiased statements in a harassment discussion. *sarcasm*
As of mid month, only 4.1% of the US population is currently on a welfare program. (Source: US Department of Health and Human Services, U.S. Department of Commerce, CATO Institute; April 13, 2015) Stereotyping and badmouthing a demographic ("most kids" and their parents) can be considered a form of harassment. Please continue with the rest of the discussion with a bit more class.

MornaBaine

Since this thread has been relegated to the RP forum where it does not belong I guess we may as well continue to discuss the roleplay aspects of this issue. Here is another really good article about roleplaying in MMOs: Who Killed Roleplaying in MMOs? This is another article back from 2009 and it is extremely disheartening that MMO developers seem to have learned nothing. Roleplayers, who are the most likely players to invest in a game long term and be a consistent source of revenue continue to be ignored and are not at all supported in any meaningful way by the companies running the games they play. Why is that?

newtinmpls

speaking of ZoS supporting RP, i watched the youtube of the most recent ... whadycallit .... the every-other-week podcast thingie and I was interested to note that they were announcing planned RP events.

I'm hoping that means a GM will be on hand on troll-watch duty. Sad, but possibly needed.

MornaBaine

newtinmpls wrote: »

speaking of ZoS supporting RP, i watched the youtube of the most recent ... whadycallit .... the every-other-week podcast thingie and I was interested to note that they were announcing planned RP events.

I'm hoping that means a GM will be on hand on troll-watch duty. Sad, but possibly needed.

Yes this is part of the lip service they pay to RP. And if you ask them ahead of time they will send a GM to watch over your RP event. Of course this does not solve the problem of player harassment but it's a nice PR gesture.

newtinmpls

So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?

Vikova

It is important to keep this about harassment and not roleplaying specifically. They will never get their own phases, locations, or anything of the sort. It is also a myth that they were explicitly promised those things.

Harassment, on the other hand, is something that impacts a great many people that are not roleplayers. More GMs and other issues of that sort are something we can push for without making it about roleplayers themselves. Because, frankly, roleplayer-specific concerns are virtually never catered to in games because they are a tiny minority of players. Attaching an issue like harassment to roleplaying will just make it less likely to be addressed.

So, in that respect, I agree with the original poster's edit regarding focusing the topic on harassment itself. The rest of it is a non-issue.

MornaBaine

newtinmpls wrote: »

So was there any harassment? Was it dealt with appropriately?

If you read the original post you will know that there indeed was a specific instance of harassment that prompted this discussion. Sadly, it was of a roleplay event and so the powers that be have decided that this entire thread is somehow only about roleplaying. Hence the move to this section of the forums. Was it dealt with appropriately? No. Because a GM could not respond to the SEVERAL reports that were sent in as it was occurring until well over an hour after the event (that lasted at least an hour or more) itself was over. And since we cannot know if any punishment at all was meted out to the offenders there no way to know if any "justice" was eventually done. Since the only system in place for dealing with player harassment is to report it and HOPE a GM will show up and do something about it, and since they are clearly understaffed and cannot deal with these problems at all AS THEY ARE OCCURRING, it seems clear that this problem will just keep getting worse, not better.

MornaBaine

Saiden wrote: »

It is important to keep this about harassment and not roleplaying specifically. They will never get their own phases, locations, or anything of the sort. It is also a myth that they were explicitly promised those things.

Harassment, on the other hand, is something that impacts a great many people that are not roleplayers. More GMs and other issues of that sort are something we can push for without making it about roleplayers themselves. Because, frankly, roleplayer-specific concerns are virtually never catered to in games because they are a tiny minority of players. Attaching an issue like harassment to roleplaying will just make it less likely to be addressed.

So, in that respect, I agree with the original poster's edit regarding focusing the topic on harassment itself. The rest of it is a non-issue.

The fact that nothing will ever be done to support roleplay despite all the lip service paid to it by ZoS kind of makes me feel like ZOS is part of the problem. If I ever manage to find a game that ACTUALLY supports roleplay instead of just SAYING they do, I will play that game the rest of my life. It is a sad state of affairs indeed when I have to acknowledge that everything you say above is absolutely true.

But the really sad part seems to be that even though they know darned well this is not a "roleplayers only" problem they seem to have no interest in developing the tools to give EVERYONE who plays the game an enjoyable gameplay experience, free of trolls.

MornaBaine

I have posted the following in this thread: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142023/eso-live-ask-us-anything#latest

"Since player harassment of other players that goes beyond troll-like chat that can be ignored with the /ignore function, where players will follow other players around spamming spells and jumping up and down in their faces and essentially trying to disrupt or distract from their gameplay IS a problem is ESO, will you consider expanding the /ignore function so that when you use it on another player they are removed visually from your sight? This is actually a feature in some other games and should become the standard in AAA title MMOs so that GM's can focus on gameplay issues rather than behavioral problems of other players. Please comment."

Perhaps if those of us here who care about this issue will add their voices to that thread we might actually get some attention. Please chime in. Thank you.

Jeremy

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it to criminal behavior or liken it to a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

MornaBaine

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I think it's fairly obvious you and many of us here are simply not going to agree on this issue. While not bullying under any defined laws, I will contend that this sort of behavior is driven by the very same sort of personality maladjustment that causes bullying. It is an unfortunate fact that when placed in a situation where they know there will be no consequences for their actions a disappointingly large number of people will behave in pretty appalling ways towards other people. And that is what is happening here. So, one way or another, it needs to be addressed and stopped. My, and most others people's here, preferred method is the one that doesn't actually punish these people but simply makes it so we don't have to put up with them. So arguments about whether or not it's legally "bullying" are indeed moot. Therefore I will no longer engage with you over this difference of opinion as it is fairly obvious we are never going to agree on it. Have a nice day.

Jeremy

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I think it's fairly obvious you and many of us here are simply not going to agree on this issue. While not bullying under any defined laws, I will contend that this sort of behavior is driven by the very same sort of personality maladjustment that causes bullying. It is an unfortunate fact that when placed in a situation where they know there will be no consequences for their actions a disappointingly large number of people will behave in pretty appalling ways towards other people. And that is what is happening here. So, one way or another, it needs to be addressed and stopped. My, and most others people's here, preferred method is the one that doesn't actually punish these people but simply makes it so we don't have to put up with them. So arguments about whether or not it's legally "bullying" are indeed moot. Therefore I will no longer engage with you over this difference of opinion as it is fairly obvious we are never going to agree on it. Have a nice day.

Fair enough.

Though I should point out people act in pretty appalling ways toward each other in real life too: even when there are consequences.

So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.

helediron

I believe majority of non-RP people are actually RP-friendly. I am doing lot of farming and therefore put my nose to odd places. I meet sometimes RP groups in secluded locations. If they use /say i have occasionally thrown a greet and not to mind me while collecting wood. Sadly i have seen the naked dancers too.

Maybe in Cyrodiil you could be in touch with dueling guilds? They are cross-faction, know how to organize and behave and might lend few gankers to support an event. If ZOS does nothing, then maybe the answer lies in friendly network of players who are ready to lend a hand for support. As a grandfather i know social pressure IS effective if there is channel to use it. In my guilds i will snuff out any harassing behaviour.

Vikova

While I don't expect it to be implemented because they have other things of higher importance, I would fully support /ignore also making the ignored player's characters invisible.

I also think that any discussion of whether or not something is 'bullying' is harmful to the argument of those trying to get these issues handled. Referring to naked emotes as bullying will do nothing but get your argument and cause ignored by people that would otherwise support you. Whether it is or is not is irrelevant -- the goal here is to get certain things changed.

LariahHunding

seanvwolf wrote: »

wilsonirayb16_ESO wrote: »

Sure, most kids these days are made weak by nanny state big government welfare dependent parents. A good kick in the a$$ and a few mouthfuls of dirt would go a long ways to setting them straight. But whomever they are and wherever they are from, they still don't deserve unwarranted abuse.

Way to inject your totally unbiased statements in a harassment discussion. *sarcasm*
As of mid month, only 4.1% of the US population is currently on a welfare program. (Source: US Department of Health and Human Services, U.S. Department of Commerce, CATO Institute; April 13, 2015) Stereotyping and badmouthing a demographic ("most kids" and their parents) can be considered a form of harassment. Please continue with the rest of the discussion with a bit more class.

It's more likely the result of the "me" generation fallout of the eighties. "Me and mine" and the heck with every one else. Middle class and above handing everything to their kids on a silver platter who in turn expect everyone to kowtow to their every need.

On the issue at hand, it is nothing more than common courtesy, which there is a sore lack of today. If someone is ask politely to vacate an area or to stop doing something then they should show some manners and do it, unless they are trying to complete a quest or farming.

LariahHunding

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

istateres wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

farrier_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you had ever actually been physically bullied by someone before: you would know how ridiculous it is to try and compare that to watching a video game elf dance in their underwear. They aren't even in the same universe.

Thankfully, cyberbullying is now recognized in most states and civilized countries as a serious offense.

From a game-design point of view, the best place to start reading on in game harassment is probably Julian Dibell's "A *** in Cyberspace" (1993), which is a decently short article, quite famous in the game-design world, and considered one of the must-reads for both multiplayer game designers and community managers.

http://www.juliandibbell.com/articles/a-***-in-cyberspace/

Well worth reading even for players.

A video game character dancing in their underwear is not a good example of cyber bullying.

Most cases of prosecuted Cyber Bullying usually has some attachment to reality - where someone uses the internet to threaten or harass an individual that they know in real life. A judge would laugh this case out of court if it was attempted.

Sure, but we're not trying to prosecute anyone. We want to ban them from OUR world, to stop their visual harassment. This is just an extention of the chat ability, where you can prevenet comments for certain indivivuals from appearing in your chat. They and all their effects on the world would be invisible to us.

My comment was in reference to a poster who brought up laws against cyber bullying and suggested that was the case here. The point I was making is that an underwear dancing emote doesn't qualify as cyber bullying. I'm confident every court in America would back me up on that.

If you want to be able to ignore players visually that's fine. I don't have an issue with that. I just wish people would stop exaggerating this incident and comparing it criminal behavior or a bully beating someone up.

It's an emote on a video game for crying out loud.

The comparison does not come from the actions of the players but, rather, their intent. The intent of these actions, when done up in the faces of other characters and continued even when politely asked to stop, IS to "bully." The intent IS to upset and harass. When an action is taken solely in order to, in any way, hurt someone who is powerless to fight back, that IS bullying. Does it fit as an actionable offense under the law? No. But it's still bullying and ZOS HAS the means to put a stop to it. Therefore, they should.

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I think it's fairly obvious you and many of us here are simply not going to agree on this issue. While not bullying under any defined laws, I will contend that this sort of behavior is driven by the very same sort of personality maladjustment that causes bullying. It is an unfortunate fact that when placed in a situation where they know there will be no consequences for their actions a disappointingly large number of people will behave in pretty appalling ways towards other people. And that is what is happening here. So, one way or another, it needs to be addressed and stopped. My, and most others people's here, preferred method is the one that doesn't actually punish these people but simply makes it so we don't have to put up with them. So arguments about whether or not it's legally "bullying" are indeed moot. Therefore I will no longer engage with you over this difference of opinion as it is fairly obvious we are never going to agree on it. Have a nice day.

Fair enough.

Though I should point out people act in pretty appalling ways toward each other in real life too: even when there are consequences.

So I don't think having GMs start banning a lot of people would protect RPers from disparaging emotes. The best solution here I think is just not to let the emotes bother you.

Typical victim blaming. Victim is being too sensitive.

seanvwolf

Jeremy wrote: »

Video game emotes do not cause you any physical injuries (and shouldn't cause you any mental ones either). So I think the bullying comparison needs to stop. That's going too far and exaggerating what is taking place. It also makes light of actual bullying - which can be serious and very harmful - unlike video game emotes.

I don't have an issue with you describing it as a mild form of harassment if the player continuously follows you around doing the emote or something to that effect. But to dance naked at your role playing funeral - I would be wary to even call it that.

I also think expecting GMs to punish players on the basis of their intent behind the emotes they perform is a bit ridiculous. What's next? Hate crime legislation to protect RPers against emotes intended to make fun of them?

I understand what you are saying, @Jeremy and would tend to agree about the severity, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be less of a priority to address. How much longer will it be till the forms of harassment escalate when the pestering underwear-clad dancing fool decides it's too boring just to dance and would like to see what other way they can grief other players.

Understand that bullying also includes mild harassment if it is either repeated or has the potential to be repeated against a defenseless party (here the defenseless party is the one who has no tools to stop the harassment, save move to another location or log out - which if it happens is the aggressor coercing the defenseless party to take an action they don't want to take; i.e. also bullying.)