[Screenshot] 50% "Experience Booster" - ZOS, can we get a confirmation or further details?

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

xryanvb16_ESO wrote: »

In PVE the competition does come from progressing the fastest..... maybe if they are going to implement Boosts of this kind there could also be more systems introduced that allowed for different ways to compete in PVE Based on skills.

You may choose to compete with other players to see who can get the most levels the fastest, but there is no tangible difference for progressing faster than anyone else except MAYBE some achievement that no one cares about except 1% of the playerbase.

Again, it's your choice to view PVE as a competition, but that doesn't mean the game has to support it as well. Just because you're getting things before someone else doesn't mean other people can't also get them too!

So you're basicly arguing that P2W should exist, because competitive gaming (in PvE) doesn't/shouldn't exist, and thus there being no "winning"?


Something to watch before making that kind of claims: https://youtu.be/wRURln6ijC8

It's a long watch, but definitely worth it.


Lastly, by your argument of "getting things before someone else"... let's just put all the powerful gear in Cash Shop too, because hey, you can get them also by playing the game.

In this case, XP Boosters are even more P2W because once you finally get to X points, the other player will have Y points & still be stronger than you.
When there's a virtually infinite leveling progress, it is no longer about getting to something before someone else, it's about purchasing power (P2W).

Also... this:

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

RainfeatherUK

DDuke wrote: »

because competitive gaming (in PvE) shouldn't exist?

PvE should always have a competitive aspect. Just as with PvP, it might not be for everyone - but it gives solid meaning to those people who do enjoy it. Progressive, challenging PvE should always be there. No question in my mind.

Slurg

Varicite wrote: »

PvE is a competition because ZOS designed it exactly that way, w/ timed trials and leaderboards. That is PvE endgame, period.

What you're talking about is just leveling up, and nobody cares about that at all.

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

I think you're right on track here. I don't think anyone who has concerns over the XP potions really gives a flip whether someone uses them to level their character faster. I know I don't care about that. It's all about the CP gain and the ever widening gaps that will be prohibitive to participation in both PVE and PVP end game for those who don't choose to buy the potions. People who think all they will need is a V14 to win in Cyrodiil and get invited to all the trial groups are going to be in for a rude awakening if this goes live as proposed.

Also the argument that some people are presenting that this is the best way ZOS can make money on the crown store is preposterous. There are tons of requests from players who want to throw cash at ZOS for various features such as bag space, bank space, character appearance, name changes, research boosts, extra stable training, and other things that do not give anyone a competitive advantage over other players. XP boosters are not the only way to get people to open their wallets.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Problem is stuff like extra char slots are a one off deal. XP pots they can sell 100s of them to the same people.

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Problem is stuff like extra char slots are a one off deal. XP pots they can sell 100s of them to the same people.

To make enough money to create content (assuming B2P brought in more players), they'd have to make roughly 10-15$ per person (principal being that subscription costs could cover game development & maintenance).

They do not need to make the top 1% spend thousands a month to P2W at the expense of the other 99%. What they need to do is roll out interesting DLCs every month to encourage subscribing or purchasing them.
Along with costumes & consumables ("weaker" potions & soul gems), extra character slots etc, this is more than enough.

P2W isn't the answer to keep the game afloat & content rolling, P2W is simply submitting to a short term cash grab, lack of ethics & corporate greed.

It is not something they "have to" do, and it certainly isn't something they should do.

Ley

Here's a problem I see with exp potions. Some players are so opposed to them, that they stay on the forums for hours at a time arguing with anyone who isn't opposed to them. In the meantime those who don't care spend those hours grinding CP. This will cause there to be an ever growing gap between those who are strongly oppose exp pots and those who don't care.

If you spend 2 hours on forums complaining that's 2*X cp you're not gaining. Over a week that's 7(2*X), a month 30(2*X). For some people it's more than 2 hours, just imagine the gap!

You clearly see the problem, this has the potential to affect more than just the exp pot nay sayers. What if they introduce more bank space and some people consider that's p2w, they will now be at a cp disadvantage as well!

I propose we make it mandatory for everyone to spend 2 hours on the forums, before they're allowed to log into the game. If you don't care enough about the game to voice your opinion in the community, then you're gaining an unfair advantage over those who do.

[/sarcasm]

Saturn

Fast tracking the leveling process isn't a bad thing. However, if we are talking about a 50% increase to xp I think it should not affect your champion point progression as that would essentially be paying to make your character stronger.

DDuke

Ley wrote: »

Here's a problem I see with exp potions. Some players are so opposed to them, that they stay on the forums for hours at a time arguing with anyone who isn't opposed to them. In the meantime those who don't care spend those hours grinding CP. This will cause there to be an ever growing gap between those who are strongly oppose exp pots and those who don't care.

If you spend 2 hours on forums complaining that's 2*X cp you're not gaining. Over a week that's 7(2*X), a month 30(2*X). For some people it's more than 2 hours, just imagine the gap!

You clearly see the problem, this has the potential to affect more than just the exp pot nay sayers. What if they introduce more bank space and some people consider that's p2w, they will now be at a cp disadvantage as well!

I propose we make it mandatory for everyone to spend 2 hours on the forums, before they're allowed to log into the game. If you don't care enough about the game to voice your opinion in the community, then you're gaining an unfair advantage over those who do.

[/sarcasm]

Why would I spend time grinding in game, if I was going to quit the game because of P2W crowd got their wish fulfilled? Better make sure this doesn't happen, and then catch up to people that have gotten ahead of me since I spent 2 hours (out of 12-14) at the forums.

No need for sarcasm, that's fairly valid argument.

If I was interested in a short term experience with this game, of course I'd be grinding CPs right now instead of writing this post.

Francescolg

It seems they made the CP-gain just so slow because of money, this really hurts.
As it hurts when they nurf legit grind spots. They literally dictate you the way you have to play this game.
CP gain in PvP for the casual player / small team still needs to be improved. As you can see, with this little patch they increased PvP-xp by 50%, much more is needed in my opinion to stay interesting.

DeathDealer19

Saturn wrote: »

Fast tracking the leveling process isn't a bad thing. However, if we are talking about a 50% increase to xp I think it should not affect your champion point progression as that would essentially be paying to make your character stronger.

exactly. if this comes out and the boost increases enlightenment, then that is the end of this game and me spending 15$ a month on a sub. Paying to make your character better is the very definition of pay to win. Which ZOS said they were against with a passion.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Eliteseraph wrote: »

I read 10 pages before skipping to the current page, and I'm not at all surprised to see the exact same arguments being made. There seems to be some fairly common misconceptions about what actually constitutes P2W.

For PVE it literally doesn't matter if one person reaches higher level sooner than another person. Raids don't lock up because someone else got there first. Monsters, gathering nodes, and instances reset. Quests don't disappear because someone beat you to it.

There's not even the pressure of getting done what you want before your subscription runs out in ESO.

Someone getting champion points faster or slower doesn't equate to winning or losing in pve because the competition in PVE that everyone keeps referencing is an illusion created out of envy and jealously of someone else's accomplishments.

It's really that simple, even if people don't like it.

In PVP however, there's an argument to be made. Especially if the highest bracket includes the top end where everyone is pooling CP, and it isn't limited in any way. In other words: Everyone is thrown into the same pool without any consideration.

That should be easy to fix. Simply make more brackets to contain higher amounts of CP totals, or some other system to ensure relatively fair competition. Alternatively, make the benefits of CP not create such a huge impact on the power levels of a character.

People might complain about a 5% difference, but that much can just as easily be made up with skillful play, a better computer, practice, better connection, or friends.

But really there's an easier solution: PvP should be separate from PvE so it can be balanced across the board, free from problems that progression-based PvE creates for it.

Why MMOs insist on mixing the two is beyond me.

But you're wrong. You do compete for limited spots in raids, and even groups sometimes. All else being equal you will lose a spot to someone of a higher level or better gear or even more CP. The only way you don't compete with other people in an MMO is if you solo the entire game or simply don't mind random PUGs that can either go smoothly or be a disaster.

DHale

How about we let the ppl who play a lot in PVP and PVE pull far ahead of those of us who do not dedicate time into progressing our toons. I am mad that Bill Gates has more money than me I should be to get his money that he worked hard for and I did not. Sarcasm folks!!! You should not catch up or be able to catch up... ever. You must put in the time and effort. I do not have engine guardian becuse I have not put in the effort and time to farm the drops. So I think they should put it in th Crown Store...sarcasm folks!!!

Eliteseraph

Eliteseraph wrote: »

But you're wrong. You do compete for limited spots in raids, and even groups sometimes. All else being equal you will lose a spot to someone of a higher level or better gear or even more CP. The only way you don't compete with other people in an MMO is if you solo the entire game or simply don't mind random PUGs that can either go smoothly or be a disaster.

STRONGLY disagree. You might lose a spot in a single raid group full of elitist players(edited) who are willing to ruthlessly sacrifice fun and friendship for progression. Even if that kind of group matters to you, OTHER raid groups don't close down because you didn't get in that one. The raid isn't shut off for you, you can still do it! It doesn't go away. You don't lose the ability to raid.

Slurg wrote: »

I think you're right on track here. I don't think anyone who has concerns over the XP potions really gives a flip whether someone uses them to level their character faster. I know I don't care about that. It's all about the CP gain and the ever widening gaps that will be prohibitive to participation in both PVE and PVP end game for those who don't choose to buy the potions. People who think all they will need is a V14 to win in Cyrodiil and get invited to all the trial groups are going to be in for a rude awakening if this goes live as proposed.

Let me go ahead and ask, because I want to be sure we're discussing the same thing.

Is there, or has there ever been, any evidence to suggest that XP pots will affect CP gain? Does the 10% for being a subscriber affect CP gains? If so, where do you guys draw the line at fair vs unfair?

DDuke wrote: »

Lastly, by your argument of "getting things before someone else"... let's just put all the powerful gear in Cash Shop too, because hey, you can get them also by playing the game.

In this case, XP Boosters are even more P2W because once you finally get to X points, the other player will have Y points & still be stronger than you.
When there's a virtually infinite leveling progress, it is no longer about getting to something before someone else, it's about purchasing power (P2W).

Also... this:

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

In absolute terms, yes, putting all the best gear in the cash shop wouldn't be P2W as long as it was also available through normal gameplay. If a person wanted to completely spoil the game for themselves, that's up to them. I personally think it would be a terrible mistake to use such a system because people would quickly become bored with the game and leave.

EVE online has players like that, who swipe their credit card and buy the most expensive gear. They quickly get pwned and mocked, and leave the game in frustration because their money didn't equate to skill or success. Granted, EVE online is based far more on player skill than any other game on the market, but it's an example of how it can be done and not be P2W.

But ultimately it all falls back to my previous post about PVP. A solution to the 'infinite progression' problem is to create brackets for various stages of CP. That way people can't simply 'win' by having more points than anyone else. That not only solves the problem of EXP pots, but also people who are simply willing to grind more than anyone else.

The problem doesn't lie with EXP pots being P2W, it lies with the context in which those pots are being used. I would hope that Zenimax is smart enough to create a context that doesn't result in game-breaking problems.

YourNameHere

Dazin93 wrote: »

Going pay to win is the only way for new players and casual players to keep up and remain competitive in the current system. If they are willing to pay or hardcore/vet players are willing to pay to maintain their advantage, then I say more power to them.

So .. then it all matters in PvP? Cause I don't see how this potion would affect me with other players in PvE/grouping setting where I explore and RP.

Takhistis

So ZOS said that earning 3600 champ points, with enlightenment should atlas take over a year, yes? Now let's see who's actually willing to spend possible insane amounts of €€€ on these boosts to max out their cp in a few months

eventide03b14a_ESO

Takhistis wrote: »

So ZOS said that earning 3600 champ points, with enlightenment should atlas take over a year, yes? Now let's see who's actually willing to spend possible insane amounts of €€€ on these boosts to max out their cp in a few months

I'm pretty sure that's what they are hoping for.

DHale

Yeah I usually earn a CP a day enlightened and a subscriber. So that is lterally in 10 years I will be max level. XP pots... I say bottoms up, how many crowns for that??? glub glub glub

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

DHale wrote: »

Yeah I usually earn a CP a day enlightened and a subscriber. So that is lterally in 10 years I will be max level. XP pots... I say bottoms up, how many crowns for that??? glub glub glub

Thing is you cant spend all those points on stuff you use anyways. Youd have to spend a bunch on heavy armor and blocking even tho you never use heavy armor or block. So you really dont need anywhere near 3600 points.

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Eliteseraph wrote: »

But you're wrong. You do compete for limited spots in raids, and even groups sometimes. All else being equal you will lose a spot to someone of a higher level or better gear or even more CP. The only way you don't compete with other people in an MMO is if you solo the entire game or simply don't mind random PUGs that can either go smoothly or be a disaster.

STRONGLY disagree. You might lose a spot in a single raid group full of elitist a-holes who are willing to sacrifice fun and friendship for progression. Even if that kind of group matters to you, OTHER raid groups don't close down because you didn't get in that one. The raid isn't shut off for you, you can still do it! It doesn't go away. You don't lose the ability to raid.

Oh, they must feel so sad for sacrificing "fun and friendship" with people like you who call them "elitist a-holes".

If you look at the video I linked above, it goes into detail to describe how these competitive players are actually about teamplay & friendship. That they decide to play the game competitively with like-minded people doesn't make them any better/worse people.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I think you're right on track here. I don't think anyone who has concerns over the XP potions really gives a flip whether someone uses them to level their character faster. I know I don't care about that. It's all about the CP gain and the ever widening gaps that will be prohibitive to participation in both PVE and PVP end game for those who don't choose to buy the potions. People who think all they will need is a V14 to win in Cyrodiil and get invited to all the trial groups are going to be in for a rude awakening if this goes live as proposed.

Let me go ahead and ask, because I want to be sure we're discussing the same thing.

Is there, or has there ever been, any evidence to suggest that XP pots will affect CP gain? Does the 10% for being a subscriber affect CP gains? If so, where do you guys draw the line at fair vs unfair?

XP Boosters boost XP gain, CP=400k XP. Of course they'd affect CP gain.

Not only that, but it has been confirmed that all XP buffs stack as well.

And no, I'm not fine with 10% bonus to subscribers either, though it's not that bad given that you get it by simply subscribing (doing what you did before). It's not spending thousands on potions and seeing who has the deepest wallet. Still, even subscriber XP bonus shouldn't affect CPs (and I'm a subscriber).

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lastly, by your argument of "getting things before someone else"... let's just put all the powerful gear in Cash Shop too, because hey, you can get them also by playing the game.

In this case, XP Boosters are even more P2W because once you finally get to X points, the other player will have Y points & still be stronger than you.
When there's a virtually infinite leveling progress, it is no longer about getting to something before someone else, it's about purchasing power (P2W).

Also... this:

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

In absolute terms, yes, putting all the best gear in the cash shop wouldn't be P2W -snip-

...and that's where you lost your credibility.

Eliteseraph

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, they must feel so sad for sacrificing "fun and friendship" with people like you who call them "elitist a-holes".

If you look at the video I linked above, it goes into detail to describe how these competitive players are actually about teamplay & friendship. That they decide to play the game competitively with like-minded people doesn't make them any better/worse people.

If someone is willing to completely ditch their friends at the drop of a hat simply because some random person has a handfull more CP than them, then yes, they are acting in a reprehensible way. (edited)

DDuke wrote: »

XP Boosters boost XP gain, CP=400k XP. Of course they'd affect CP gain.

Not only that, but it has been confirmed that all XP buffs stack as well.

And no, I'm not fine with 10% bonus to subscribers either, though it's not that bad given that you get it by simply subscribing (doing what you did before). It's not spending thousands on potions and seeing who has the deepest wallet. Still, even subscriber XP bonus shouldn't affect CPs (and I'm a subscriber).

So where does the line get drawn? It sounds more and more like you should be agreeing with my suggestion of tiered brackets for competitive gameplay.

DDuke wrote: »

...and that's where you lost your credibility.

Take everything out of context and of course it loses credibility. You need to read the rest of what I posted after that. We're talking about a theoretical situation here. If you can't expand you mind to consider the situation in all it's aspects, then why are you even in the discussion? Just dismiss everyone who disagrees with you and go about your way.

All I'm saying is that there are ways to make it so that EXP pots don't equate to outright advantage. The same thing applies to buying equipment. If someone buys all the best gear, it doesn't automatically make them good at the game. Someone who IS good at the game might take longer to get the gear, but once they have it they'll smoke the weaker player.

I suppose that means I'm admitting that things like EXP pots and buying gear would be P2W, but only on the short term. In the long-run, the better player will come out on top as long as the 'P2W' stuff can be attained through normal gameplay.

Ley

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Take everything out of context and of course it loses credibility. You need to read the rest of what I posted after that. We're talking about a theoretical situation here. If you can't expand you mind to consider the situation in all it's aspects, then why are you even in the discussion? Just dismiss everyone who disagrees with you and go about your way.

It's what he does, but somehow he seems oblivious to it.

No matter what you say you will not convince him that it is ok for you to have an opinion that differs from his. The best you might hope for is that the people who read the forums may be a bit more open minded and at least consider both sides of the argument. Only reason I bother discussing this with him and other like him, is because I don't want their opinion to run rampant and unopposed through the forums.

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, they must feel so sad for sacrificing "fun and friendship" with people like you who call them "elitist a-holes".

If you look at the video I linked above, it goes into detail to describe how these competitive players are actually about teamplay & friendship. That they decide to play the game competitively with like-minded people doesn't make them any better/worse people.

If someone is willing to completely ditch their friends at the drop of a hat simply because some random person has a handfull more CP than them, then yes, they are a-holes.

*edited to avoid moderation*

Some people might find it offensive, you calling them a-holes (sigh... where are the moderators when you need them?). I fail to see how this weird perception of competitive players you have provides anything constructive.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

XP Boosters boost XP gain, CP=400k XP. Of course they'd affect CP gain.

Not only that, but it has been confirmed that all XP buffs stack as well.

And no, I'm not fine with 10% bonus to subscribers either, though it's not that bad given that you get it by simply subscribing (doing what you did before). It's not spending thousands on potions and seeing who has the deepest wallet. Still, even subscriber XP bonus shouldn't affect CPs (and I'm a subscriber).

So where does the line get drawn? It sounds more and more like you should be agreeing with my suggestion of tiered brackets for competitive gameplay.

No, I don't agree with separating player base into different "brackets". Not only does that go against the fundamentals of what MMOs are, nor would it help when people of different power levels want to play together.

Also, you would have to create an unique solution for PvE, which would undoubtedly include level scaling to the highest CP, which in turn would enforce guilds to require their players to have as much or close to as much CP as the highest Credit Card Hero. This, as you might imagine, would only serve to increase the amount of "elitism" in the game" by actually forcing it to happen.

Nope, not feasible.

Much more feasible to me seems keeping P2W out altogether.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...and that's where you lost your credibility.

Take everything out of context and of course it loses credibility. You need to read the rest of what I posted after that. We're talking about a theoretical situation here. If you can't expand you mind to consider the situation in all it's aspects, then why are you even in the discussion? Just dismiss everyone who disagrees with you and go about your way.

All I'm saying is that there are ways to make it so that EXP pots don't equate to outright advantage. The same thing applies to buying equipment. If someone buys all the best gear, it doesn't automatically make them good at the game. Someone who IS good at the game might take longer to get the gear, but once they have it they'll smoke the weaker player.

I suppose that means I'm admitting that things like EXP pots and buying gear would be P2W, but only on the short term. In the long-run, the better player will come out on top as long as the 'P2W' stuff can be attained through normal gameplay.

If someone who is good at the game buys the best gear, that makes him better than someone who's good at the game but doesn't have the best gear.

It's that simple really, and the difference which makes it P2W. Two players who were equal before, no longer equal because of $$$. Short term you say? It might be, or it might not be. If the player on the receiving end of P2W abuse gets repeatedly & unjustly smashed by the Credit Card Hero, he might get frustrated, quit the game & never arrive at that point.

In case of Champion System, I doubt we can talk about short term when it takes 9-10 years to maximize on average (assuming they don't add more CPs, which they will because that would mean more XP Booster sales).

Also, being good in the game isn't always enough. You also need good gear & a good team to tackle end game content, which makes it a much more complicated matter.
To get into a good team, you obviously need good gear, and if Mr. Credit Card (who may also be a good player) has that gear, he gets into the team, not you. What begins "short term" as you say may suddenly also have long term implications.

farrier_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Personally, I'm reasonably sure only the designers (who will have made number-crunching spreadsheets for this stuff) know how endgame CP works yet, and until either someone hits that level, or there is a public graph or spreadsheet showing max-xp-boosted values vs regular values, nobody else will.

Once the first person legitimately reaches the max CP cap, any CP boost, even a scroll-of-a-hundred-CP in the store, stops being P2W, it just becomes pay-to-catch-up, and this whole thing becomes a non-issue to anyone, because all it does is level the playing field faster for new players. Which is why nobody's grumbling about XP boosts - only CP boosts.

There are no hard stats. There is no table, or graph. Without facts and analysis, everyone is talking hot air. Far as I can tell, I'm the only one who's even *begun* to make an effort to calculate the actual difference it would make.

If this stuff matters to you, then think like a game designer, and get out your spreadsheet, and prove your point. Prove that a one-off (but infinitely renewable) 50% boost is somehow magically significantly "more P2W" than the *permanent* 10% boost from the rings of Mara, or the 10% from subbing.

Eliteseraph

DDuke wrote: »

*edited to avoid moderation*

Some people might find it offensive, you calling them a-holes (sigh... where are the moderators when you need them?). I fail to see how this weird perception of competitive players you have provides anything constructive.

You are correct. I apologize and I'll edit my previous posts to reflect a less offensive way to describe such actions.

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't agree with separating player base into different "brackets". Not only does that go against the fundamentals of what MMOs are, nor would it help when people of different power levels want to play together.

Also, you would have to create an unique solution for PvE, which would undoubtedly include level scaling to the highest CP, which in turn would enforce guilds to require their players to have as much or close to as much CP as the highest Credit Card Hero. This, as you might imagine, would only serve to increase the amount of "elitism" in the game" by actually forcing it to happen.

Nope, not feasible.

Much more feasible to me seems keeping P2W out altogether.

I'm not following your logic at all. Basically what I'm suggesting are ranges of CP point totals. Sort of like Weight classes in boxing. I'm not sure why you would assume that it would automatically fail or that there isn't a solution professional game designers could come up with that would work while still allowing for the sale of EXP pots.

DDuke wrote: »

If someone who is good at the game buys the best gear, that makes him better than someone who's good at the game but doesn't have the best gear.

Until the person who doesn't buy the gear gains it through other means, then it's back to parity. The point is that the gain is temporary, and available to everyone. Buying EXP pots(or items, in this theoretical situation) only results in saving time. It doesn't result in an advantage that can't be overcome.

DDuke wrote: »

It's that simple really, and the difference which makes it P2W. Two players who were equal before, no longer equal because of $$$. Short term you say? It might be, or it might not be. If the player on the receiving end of P2W abuse gets repeatedly & unjustly smashed by the Credit Card Hero, he might get frustrated, quit the game & never arrive at that point.

And the person with little amounts of time might just as easily get frustrated by the grind and quit the game as well. Legitimately good players might come to the game late, take one look at the incredible gulf of time they have to attempt to overcome in order to catch up to the cutting edge, and just leave.

There are many scenarios that can be brought up to support any side of the discussion, and I don't think they should be used as conclusive proof.

DDuke wrote: »

Also, being good in the game isn't always enough. You also need good gear & a good team to tackle end game content, which makes it a much more complicated matter.
To get into a good team, you obviously need good gear, and if Mr. Credit Card (who may also be a good player) has that gear, he gets into the team, not you. What begins "short term" as you say may suddenly also have long term implications.

Again you're focusing on very specific and limited scope examples. You seem to be assuming that there's only a single good team, and that only good players who are willing to use EXP pots or other crown store items are the ones getting on to good teams. There are more types of high-end and competitive players than just those who are willing to treat their teammates like a number on a character sheet.

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

*edited to avoid moderation*

Some people might find it offensive, you calling them a-holes (sigh... where are the moderators when you need them?). I fail to see how this weird perception of competitive players you have provides anything constructive.

You are correct. I apologize and I'll edit my previous posts to reflect a less offensive way to describe such actions.

DDuke wrote: »

No, I don't agree with separating player base into different "brackets". Not only does that go against the fundamentals of what MMOs are, nor would it help when people of different power levels want to play together.

Also, you would have to create an unique solution for PvE, which would undoubtedly include level scaling to the highest CP, which in turn would enforce guilds to require their players to have as much or close to as much CP as the highest Credit Card Hero. This, as you might imagine, would only serve to increase the amount of "elitism" in the game" by actually forcing it to happen.

Nope, not feasible.

Much more feasible to me seems keeping P2W out altogether.

I'm not following your logic at all. Basically what I'm suggesting are ranges of CP point totals. Sort of like Weight classes in boxing. I'm not sure why you would assume that it would automatically fail or that there isn't a solution professional game designers could come up with that would work while still allowing for the sale of EXP pots.

I think I explained fairly well why it would fail. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

I fail to see how they'd create the difficult PvE end game content for all "Weight classes" & allow people of different "weight classes" play together in PvE/PvP (without there being P2W or "grind2win" players on the other side).

As said, I just don't feel it's feasible that's all.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If someone who is good at the game buys the best gear, that makes him better than someone who's good at the game but doesn't have the best gear.

Until the person who doesn't buy the gear gains it through other means, then it's back to parity. The point is that the gain is temporary, and available to everyone. Buying EXP pots(or items, in this theoretical situation) only results in saving time. It doesn't result in an advantage that can't be overcome.

Except in succesfull MMOs, this is usually when another tier of gear is already released, nor is everyone is able to get that gear by normal means (which makes it desirable), both points meaning parity doesn't exist.

You admit it yourself with your reasoning, you create disparity with $$$. Isn't that exactly P2W?

Also, just straight out purchasing it (whether that is with gold, or $$$) you bypass the challenge & effort other people went through, essentially undermining their sense of achievement.

You get gear by winning in the game, not by winning in the Cash Shop. Atleast in good MMOs.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

It's that simple really, and the difference which makes it P2W. Two players who were equal before, no longer equal because of $$$. Short term you say? It might be, or it might not be. If the player on the receiving end of P2W abuse gets repeatedly & unjustly smashed by the Credit Card Hero, he might get frustrated, quit the game & never arrive at that point.

And the person with little amounts of time might just as easily get frustrated by the grind and quit the game as well. Legitimately good players might come to the game late, take one look at the incredible gulf of time they have to attempt to overcome in order to catch up to the cutting edge, and just leave.

There are many scenarios that can be brought up to support any side of the discussion, and I don't think they should be used as conclusive proof.

Look, I'm not in favour of the Champion Grind either. I believe players should be rewarded primarily based on skill, not on how many hours they grind. Your criticism would be much better directed at the Champion System & its nature.

I would even venture a guess that the very reason Champion System was made as a XP based "hamster wheel" (infinite progress), is to sell XP boosters.

Nor will those XP Boosters help those players that arrive later catch up either, that is only an illusion created to milk some money. They would help the player catch up, if only he/she used the boosters.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also, being good in the game isn't always enough. You also need good gear & a good team to tackle end game content, which makes it a much more complicated matter.
To get into a good team, you obviously need good gear, and if Mr. Credit Card (who may also be a good player) has that gear, he gets into the team, not you. What begins "short term" as you say may suddenly also have long term implications.

Again you're focusing on very specific and limited scope examples. You seem to be assuming that there's only a single good team, and that only good players who are willing to use EXP pots or other crown store items are the ones getting on to good teams. There are more types of high-end and competitive players than just those who are willing to treat their teammates like a number on a character sheet.

There is a difference between having a good team, and having the best team.


If you want an insight into the competitive scene of MMOs, I'd highly encourage you to check out the documentary I linked above.

Razzak

Ley wrote: »

Here's a problem I see with exp potions. Some players are so opposed to them, that they stay on the forums for hours at a time arguing with anyone who isn't opposed to them. In the meantime those who don't care spend those hours grinding CP. This will cause there to be an ever growing gap between those who are strongly oppose exp pots and those who don't care.

If you spend 2 hours on forums complaining that's 2*X cp you're not gaining. Over a week that's 7(2*X), a month 30(2*X). For some people it's more than 2 hours, just imagine the gap!

You clearly see the problem, this has the potential to affect more than just the exp pot nay sayers. What if they introduce more bank space and some people consider that's p2w, they will now be at a cp disadvantage as well!

I propose we make it mandatory for everyone to spend 2 hours on the forums, before they're allowed to log into the game. If you don't care enough about the game to voice your opinion in the community, then you're gaining an unfair advantage over those who do.

[/sarcasm]

Unless, of course, people write in forum at the time when they can't play the game. Shocking, I know. Or, there might be people out there, that do not see their day divided into time when they play and the time when they use this forum. Meaning, they just might use this forum at the time when they didn't even intend to play.

Varicite

Razzak wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Here's a problem I see with exp potions. Some players are so opposed to them, that they stay on the forums for hours at a time arguing with anyone who isn't opposed to them. In the meantime those who don't care spend those hours grinding CP. This will cause there to be an ever growing gap between those who are strongly oppose exp pots and those who don't care.

If you spend 2 hours on forums complaining that's 2*X cp you're not gaining. Over a week that's 7(2*X), a month 30(2*X). For some people it's more than 2 hours, just imagine the gap!

You clearly see the problem, this has the potential to affect more than just the exp pot nay sayers. What if they introduce more bank space and some people consider that's p2w, they will now be at a cp disadvantage as well!

I propose we make it mandatory for everyone to spend 2 hours on the forums, before they're allowed to log into the game. If you don't care enough about the game to voice your opinion in the community, then you're gaining an unfair advantage over those who do.

[/sarcasm]

Unless, of course, people write in forum at the time when they can't play the game. Shocking, I know. Or, there might be people out there, that do not see their day divided into time when they play and the time when they use this forum. Meaning, they just might use this forum at the time when they didn't even intend to play.

Some of us have multiple monitors and can type quickly.

/shrug

Genomic

I don't think technically XP potions are P2W, but with the extremely drawn out CP system and the nerfing of grind sports, it seems like those are part of a hard sales pitch for them as cash shop items.

Ley

Varicite wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Here's a problem I see with exp potions. Some players are so opposed to them, that they stay on the forums for hours at a time arguing with anyone who isn't opposed to them. In the meantime those who don't care spend those hours grinding CP. This will cause there to be an ever growing gap between those who are strongly oppose exp pots and those who don't care.

If you spend 2 hours on forums complaining that's 2*X cp you're not gaining. Over a week that's 7(2*X), a month 30(2*X). For some people it's more than 2 hours, just imagine the gap!

You clearly see the problem, this has the potential to affect more than just the exp pot nay sayers. What if they introduce more bank space and some people consider that's p2w, they will now be at a cp disadvantage as well!

I propose we make it mandatory for everyone to spend 2 hours on the forums, before they're allowed to log into the game. If you don't care enough about the game to voice your opinion in the community, then you're gaining an unfair advantage over those who do.

[/sarcasm]

Unless, of course, people write in forum at the time when they can't play the game. Shocking, I know. Or, there might be people out there, that do not see their day divided into time when they play and the time when they use this forum. Meaning, they just might use this forum at the time when they didn't even intend to play.

Some of us have multiple monitors and can type quickly.

/shrug

You guys saw the [/sarcasm] right?

Eliteseraph

DDuke wrote: »

I think I explained fairly well why it would fail. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

Guildwars 2. They do not sell gear, however they do sell experience boosters, and in PVP it's highly competitive, separate from PVE, and bracketed.

Alternatively, Path of Exile style short and long seasons of competitive PVE play.

I'm not saying ESO needs to copy those systems directly, only that there are examples of tiered competitive play in an MMO working for both PVP and PVE. I don't see any reason why similar systems couldn't be adapted and applied to ESO.

DDuke wrote: »

I fail to see how they'd create the difficult PvE end game content for all "Weight classes" & allow people of different "weight classes" play together in PvE/PvP (without there being P2W or "grind2win" players on the other side).

As said, I just don't feel it's feasible that's all.

Your failure to see it doesn't make it impossible. I understand it's the basis for your arguments, but be open to the possibility that trained and experienced game designers might be able to come up with something.

DDuke wrote: »

You admit it yourself with your reasoning, you create disparity with $$$. Isn't that exactly P2W?

There is no insurmountable barrier that can only be overcome by paying! There are games like that, and there's a significant difference between those and what's being discussed for ESO.

Yes there is a temporary disparity created by paying for boosters. But it is not a permanent one, nor an insurmountable one. That's the fundamental difference, and why it's not outright "pay to win".

DDuke wrote: »

Also, just straight out purchasing it (whether that is with gold, or $$$) you bypass the challenge & effort other people went through, essentially undermining their sense of achievement.

Someone else's sense of achievement should be based on what THEY are doing, not what someone else is. You should feel proud for overcoming adversity and challenge without resorting to shortcuts. If you want to get jealous because someone else did something, then you need to re-examine your approach to life.

Regardless, that's an intangible, and should have no bearing on game balance or the discussion at hand.

DDuke wrote: »

There is a difference between having a good team, and having the best team.

The game isn't balanced around only the best team. Even the best players don't play in a vacuum.