[Screenshot] 50% "Experience Booster" - ZOS, can we get a confirmation or further details?

Grao

Enodoc wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Unfortunately the fact it was data mined as displayed in the picture means that is what ZoS intended to release.

It doesn't really, it just means that is what ZOS have been experimenting with at the moment. It's possible to datamine a really early version of the Main Quest as well, as well as the original 5-professions crafting system. Just because they're there, it doesn't mean ZOS ever plan to release those.

Zenimax doesn't really test things up, they implement it to check for bugs and toss it to live hoping it ticks. Why do you think we have so many roll backs on changes implemented with patches? Because Zenimax didn't test the changes or even spent time thinking about how the players would use those changes.

The only reason this EXp potions are not already in the Crown Store is because people had issues with the other potions they released and second, because people data mined that picture and this forum storm is making they hesitate.

liquid_wolf

Money = Time
CP = Levels & Gear

These are the concepts being argued here. ZOS did put this game out there to make money. You really have to keep that in mind no matter what your side of the argument is.

The frustration seems to be that XP gains in many areas of the game were reduced. Some areas have shown improvement, but overall the xp gains seem very small compared to the goal.

Right now that goal is Champion Points. All the champion points.

Players are treating CP like levels, and feel that ANY XP boosts is somehow the same as buying levels.

But I doubt that was the goal of the Champion Point System at all. Having more champion points isn't supposed to be synonymous with having more levels.

If I have 2000 champion points spread in 12 different areas, I shouldn't be more powerful than someone with 200 champion points spread in 3 areas... simply more versatile and flexible. Champion Points were designed to augment and enhance player skill and their build... not simply replace levels and gear.

But people seem very afraid that is exactly what they do. That so long as I have 1000 champion points and only played half the time as someone who has 500 champion points... I have cheated or done something considered wrong.

But if Champion Points are only supposed to augment player skill and make builds more flexible... why does it matter?

If, however, Champion Points are the same as having more levels and gear, then it seems champion points need to be changed.

I believe it is the people that are mistaken, but changing people is usually more trouble than it is worth. They view the current CP system the same as having more levels and gear, so the only real thing that can be done is to change the CP system... or at least how it looks.

There are probably other paths that could be taken... other avenues of character development that could alleviate the player frustration.

But so long as they see Champion Points = Levels and Gear - they will have a problem with any purchasable items that give a player and advantage towards obtaining them.

1. Ignore the complaints, as everyone can buy the potions
2. Change the CP System to try to break that CP = Levels and Gear perception
3. Don't sell xp boosts... sell something else that makes money and causes a different ruckus.
4. Setup a free/alternative method of obtaining XP boosts - ala XP Chains in Final Fantasy 14 - kill mobs in rapid succession to get a boost to the xp they grant.

I'm not sure 3 and 4 will really stop the fear that Credit Card Warriors exist and they are out to ruin our gaming experience. They won't stop the belief that if someone killed me in PvP then he must have payed for his stuff.

But that is the price of F2P/B2P. It really makes a mess of things because it makes it more difficult to listen to your players. You have to make money, and you know players will buy X... even if they don't like X. They would still use it to help themselves if they got it.

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think I explained fairly well why it would fail. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

Guildwars 2. They do not sell gear, however they do sell experience boosters, and in PVP it's highly competitive, separate from PVE, and bracketed.

Alternatively, Path of Exile style short and long seasons of competitive PVE play.

I'm not saying ESO needs to copy those systems directly, only that there are examples of tiered competitive play in an MMO working for both PVP and PVE. I don't see any reason why similar systems couldn't be adapted and applied to ESO.

Yes, GW2 sells XP Boosters. However, GW2 does not feature an infinite leveling process (similar to Champion System), does it? Might be the reason why it's still competitive...

And I might now understand what you meant by brackets. Do you perhaps mean it like a matchmaking system?

Sorry, but I still don't fancy the idea of people having to pay to play in "upper leagues", that'd be just another way of saying "Want to be number one? Pay more than others!".

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I fail to see how they'd create the difficult PvE end game content for all "Weight classes" & allow people of different "weight classes" play together in PvE/PvP (without there being P2W or "grind2win" players on the other side).

As said, I just don't feel it's feasible that's all.

Your failure to see it doesn't make it impossible. I understand it's the basis for your arguments, but be open to the possibility that trained and experienced game designers might be able to come up with something.

Granted, anything is possible, thus the word "feasible".

The trick is how to make it appealing to players, and I'm not sold on that

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You admit it yourself with your reasoning, you create disparity with $$$. Isn't that exactly P2W?

There is no insurmountable barrier that can only be overcome by paying! There are games like that, and there's a significant difference between those and what's being discussed for ESO.

Said every P2W player ever. That is the most common argument coming from P2W players: "well, you could just play a bit better and then beat me!".
Also, what XP Boosters grant in terms of power is actually more than I've seen in some of the worst P2W games.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

Yes there is a temporary disparity created by paying for boosters. But it is not a permanent one, nor an insurmountable one. That's the fundamental difference, and why it's not outright "pay to win".

Oh, but it is. I would agree with you, if it was a simple leveling progress we were talking about. However, Champion System takes 9-10 years to maximize as mentioned earlier, which means you getting ahead of someone else is outside your hands, unless you use XP Boosters. It would require the P2W warriors to stop playing until you catch up to them.

Sadly, there's no way you or me can force it, but maybe you could convince them to do so?

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also, just straight out purchasing it (whether that is with gold, or $$$) you bypass the challenge & effort other people went through, essentially undermining their sense of achievement.

Someone else's sense of achievement should be based on what THEY are doing, not what someone else is. You should feel proud for overcoming adversity and challenge without resorting to shortcuts. If you want to get jealous because someone else did something, then you need to re-examine your approach to life.

Regardless, that's an intangible, and should have no bearing on game balance or the discussion at hand.

My sense of an achievement:

achievement
noun achieve·ment \ə-ˈchēv-mənt\
: something that has been done or achieved through effort : a result of hard work

If it does not take effort & dedication, it is not an achievement anymore. If you have a shortcut to it (often referred to as cheating), it undermines that achievement.

I have to think we all play video games for a reason. For a big part of the community, that is to gain recognition, to be somebody, to feel like you should keep playing to achieve your goals (and even having those goals).

If you take that feeling away from people by making everyone get them based on their account balance, you will quickly find them quitting the game. There is enough oppression in the real life already.

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

There is a difference between having a good team, and having the best team.

The game isn't balanced around only the best team. Even the best players don't play in a vacuum.

You don't have to balance a game around the best team, no one has said that.

But to be in the best team, you need to be one of the best players. To be one of the best players, you need the best gear/CPs. If this process involves you throwing thousands of $$$ at the game, then something is wrong & no competitive environment can exist.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Eliteseraph

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, GW2 sells XP Boosters. However, GW2 does not feature an infinite leveling process (similar to Champion System), does it? Might be the reason why it's still competitive...

And I might now understand what you meant by brackets. Do you perhaps mean it like a matchmaking system?

For PVP, yes, some form of matchmaking system would be workable, although it would probably require some form of small-scale matches such as arena. GW2 actually does this VERY well. I know there is a growing movement in the game asking for Arena style pvp, although I don't personally care for such forms of pvp.

And I'm honestly not sure how it could work in open world PVP. But Open world PVP contains so many different levels of players that I don't think it's really necessary.

But with the leaderboards in PVE it seems easy enough to separate scores based on ranges of total CP or soemthing like that.

DDuke wrote: »

Sorry, but I still don't fancy the idea of people having to pay to play in "upper leagues", that'd be just another way of saying "Want to be number one? Pay more than others!".

You're still stuck on that. You keep assuming that anyone who pays for an XP boost automatically becomes a better player, or gets into the highest levels, and that someone who doesn't pay can't reach those same levels. This is the heart of what I'm trying to get through to you about why it's NOT P2W.

Like someone above said "Time = Money". If you don't have the money, then put in the time.

DDuke wrote: »

Said every P2W player ever.

I have not ever bought a booster in any game outside of what comes with a normal subscription.

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, but it is. I would agree with you, if it was a simple leveling progress we were talking about. However, Champion System takes 9-10 years to maximize as mentioned earlier, which means you getting ahead of someone else is outside your hands, unless you use XP Boosters. It would require the P2W warriors to stop playing until you catch up to them.

Sadly, there's no way you or me can force it, but maybe you could convince them to do so?

Like I said before, if you don't have, or want to spend, the money then put in the time. Once again I point to the simple fact that the XP boost isn't giving you something that you can't obtain without it. What happens when you're up against player s who have just put in more time than you? Do you call that unfair as well? Should we limit players to only being able to play the same exact amount of time each day?

DDuke wrote: »

If it does not take effort & dedication, it is not an achievement anymore. If you have a shortcut to it (often referred to as cheating), it undermines that achievement.

I have to think we all play video games for a reason. For a big part of the community, that is to gain recognition, to be somebody, to feel like you should keep playing to achieve your goals (and even having those goals).

If you take that feeling away from people by making everyone get them based on their account balance, you will quickly find them quitting the game. There is enough oppression in the real life already.

Like I said, if you spend all your time focusing on what other people are doing, then you need to re-examine your approach on life. Someone already climbed Mt Everest first. Did people stop doing it? Someone already got a gold medal in the olympics. Did we stop competing?

If your enjoyment of videogames is disappears when someone else accomplishes something, then I humbly suggest you stop buying videogames and spend more time watching other people play on twitch or youtube.

DDuke

Eliteseraph wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sorry, but I still don't fancy the idea of people having to pay to play in "upper leagues", that'd be just another way of saying "Want to be number one? Pay more than others!".

You're still stuck on that. You keep assuming that anyone who pays for an XP boost automatically becomes a better player, or gets into the highest levels, and that someone who doesn't pay can't reach those same levels. This is the heart of what I'm trying to get through to you about why it's NOT P2W.

Like someone above said "Time = Money". If you don't have the money, then put in the time.

Since this seems to be the main focus of your argument, I'll just focus on it (and leave alone all suggestions on how I spend my time and how I enjoy video games).


What I would like you to do is explain to me what prevents someone from putting in both time and money, and how you'd catch up such a player that plays just as much as you, and gains 50% more XP while doing so.

Note: this is where the "it's not P2W" arguments fail.

There are players playing 14 hours a day, at which point you'd have to play 21 hours/day (not possible over long term) to keep up if they used boosters.

If someone played 16+ hours a day and purchased boosters (yes, there are such people), it'd in fact be a mathematical impossibility to keep up with the player (even if you had someone else playing your account while you slept, which is against TOS).

BigM

Blah who cares as long as the game survives. It has so much potential I just want to see it get there.

Iluvrien

BigM wrote: »

Blah who cares as long as the game survives. It has so much potential I just want to see it get there.

Some of us care about what form it survives in.

Ysne58

With the dubious ethics they have shown thus far, I don't have much hope that it will survive more than a year or so at this rate.

Ley

I'm gonna laugh when they add exp boosters to the game and certain people who have been campaigning against it and threatening to quit over it, don't quit. It would probably make the forums a bit more peaceful if they did quit but I'm not getting my hopes up.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Mr.Hmm

50%.... *checks eyes* nope... still 50%... I thought it was 10%...

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

People are gaining 3-4 CP a day RIGHT NOW, w/out any XP boosts at all besides Mara ring and sub bonus. 4 CP a day nets you 1400+ CP in a year. Speed that up by 50% and that is 8 months to hit 1500 CP, which is realistically about all you need for a build. 3600 is just overkill.

And I have looked at the bonuses for spending points, as well as the parses between 0, 70, and 3600 CP. There's plenty of screenshots and math floating around showing exactly how much the difference between 0 and 3600 CP is in terms of DPS.

When you can link me a set... ANY SET that can boost your DPS by 14k, I will concede that faster CP gain is somehow less P2W than putting the best sets in the game on the Crown Store.

I'll wait.

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

750CP vs 500CP:

• -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
• +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +5.9% Armour Penetration
• +1.2% Spell Resistance
• -6.9% DoT damage taken
• -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

Show me a gear piece in-game that grants as much power over other regular gear, I dare you

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

750CP vs 500CP:

• -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
• +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +5.9% Armour Penetration
• +1.2% Spell Resistance
• -6.9% DoT damage taken
• -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

Show me a gear piece in-game that grants as much power over other regular gear, I dare you

Ya those whole 5% and getting more loot from chests will be awesome in pvp lol.

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

750CP vs 500CP:

• -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
• +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +5.9% Armour Penetration
• +1.2% Spell Resistance
• -6.9% DoT damage taken
• -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

Show me a gear piece in-game that grants as much power over other regular gear, I dare you

Ya those whole 5% and getting more loot from chests will be awesome in pvp lol.

-5.3% stamina costs & +4.5% stamina regeneration alone are more than worth a 5-set bonus of any gear, and allow you to allocate your jewelry enchantments differently (or keep them as cost reduction/regen, and maintain insane sustain).
+9% Physical Crit Damage, again something you'd see as a 5-set bonus. Makes about 7-8% difference in DPS (as stamina NB with optimal gear)
5% Damage taken from almost every source, again something you'd see as a set bonus.


So, basicly this is like having your regular gear with the normal set bonuses, and then 3-4 additional 5-set bonuses.

All provided to you by $$$.

You still didn't answer my question. You claim you can get bigger advantage with gear, yet provide no proof of it.

Evidence to the contrary appears, and all you come up with is a strawman. C'mon, you can do better than that

You have to understand that people can't take "it's not P2W" arguments seriously when you fail to logically explain them.

What I expect from people is cold hard evidence that supports their claims, which is what I always try to provide and it'd be respectful of others to do the same (if only for the sake of having a functional argument).

liquid_wolf

DDuke wrote: »

So, basicly this is like having your regular gear with the normal set bonuses, and then 3-4 additional 5-set bonuses.

All provided to you by $$$.

That is incorrect.

It is still only provided by a time investment, but with greater rewards for time invested. The benefit can be gained by everyone, so isn't exclusive in any way.

Your concerns, however... are how overpowered Champion Points are.

Really - the only solution that fixes that is to nerf the champion points so that the difference between 500 and 750 isn't so great... otherwise someone with more free time becomes more powerful than someone who is actually giving money to the company.

Which in its own way, simply isn't fair. But that is just a perspective... You want people who put more time in to be rewarded more than those who don't... but your example shows people who put in the same amount of time, but one is getting greater rewards.

The problem isn't with the XP potions, but with the potential difference in power everyone could obtain... which also happens if you remove the xp potions and simply play the game more than others.

All your examples and evidence say one thing - the champion point system needs to be dialed down a bit.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

750CP vs 500CP:

• -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
• +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +5.9% Armour Penetration
• +1.2% Spell Resistance
• -6.9% DoT damage taken
• -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

Show me a gear piece in-game that grants as much power over other regular gear, I dare you

Ya those whole 5% and getting more loot from chests will be awesome in pvp lol.

-5.3% stamina costs & +4.5% stamina regeneration alone are more than worth a 5-set bonus of any gear, and allow you to allocate your jewelry enchantments differently (or keep them as cost reduction/regen, and maintain insane sustain).
+9% Physical Crit Damage, again something you'd see as a 5-set bonus. Makes about 7-8% difference in DPS (as stamina NB with optimal gear)
5% Damage taken from almost every source, again something you'd see as a set bonus.


So, basicly this is like having your regular gear with the normal set bonuses, and then 3-4 additional 5-set bonuses.

All provided to you by $$$.

You still didn't answer my question. You claim you can get bigger advantage with gear, yet provide no proof of it.

Evidence to the contrary appears, and all you come up with is a strawman. C'mon, you can do better than that

You have to understand that people can't take "it's not P2W" arguments seriously when you fail to logically explain them.

What I expect from people is cold hard evidence that supports their claims, which is what I always try to provide and it'd be respectful of others to do the same (if only for the sake of having a functional argument).

Its not all provided to you by money. You have to go out and earn the XP. 750 cp and thats all you get for all that work? People are complaining they should complain that the bonuses for having alot of CP is next to nothing. Also you assume they will buy xp potions for every hour of every minute they play. Again I doubt this happens but even if it does the advantage is negligible at best. Compared with say a vr14 weapon you can actually use to kill someone or armor which protects you and gives you way more regen than a few minor percentage points.

DDuke

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Guys XP boosts are not pay to win. Pay to win is where you can buy something another player cannot earn in the game. You can earn xp in the game.

By your argument:
"Powerful end game gear isn't P2W, you can find it in game".

Getting 50% more XP than someone else in a MMO with infinite level cap is P2W.

I play 10 hours/day, Average Joe plays 8 hours/day, but chugs XP boosters at CD.

Average Joe now earns 20% more CP than I do, despite me playing more.

XP->CP=Power=P2W

And no, you won't "eventually" be equal with the player using boosters, because there is no real cap on CP (current ones take 9-10 years on average to maximize).


I'm not sure in how many ways you can explain this, but I must be close to having exhausted all options.

As @Varicite said...

Varicite wrote: »

This thread seems to be inundated w/ droves of people who have no idea how endgame PvE works, have no idea how endgame PvP works, and have no idea how CP effects both.

And they seem pretty adamant on telling everyone how things they don't even begin to understand will be okay, because they said so.

Not the same thing as you have to earn xp same as you have to earn the gear. This game also has no infinite cap. The max you can get is 3600 cp. Even tho you dont need half of that on a character since alot of it is useless. For example for me putting points into shield bash, heavy armor etc would be silly on my nightblade sneaky stealthy guy. So buying gear is not the same as getting some extra xp.

Getting extra XP is actually leaps and bounds better than anything gear can possibly get you in this game.

XP > Gear.

Putting the top endgame sets in the game on the Crown Store would be less detrimental than these XP potions, progression-wise.

If you think this is true try any dungeon or pvp quest etc with no armor or weapons. You will quickly see xp is not > gear.

You can craft some pretty decent gear on the cheap, and anyone can do this.

Take somebody w/ a crafted set w/ 1500 CP, and then somebody in the best endgame gear in the game w/ 100 CP and just who do you think will come out on top?

Your argument is deliberately misleading, as putting the best gear on the Crown Store doesn't suddenly eliminate all other gear from the game and cause players to have to fight naked. Likewise, somebody gaining CP faster doesn't suddenly eliminate the CP that you've gained somehow.

What it does do, however, is give one player a statistical advantage over another through the use of cash money. And as I said, when it comes to advantages, CP will give a player a much higher advantage than obtaining the best gear ever will.

1500 cp would take literally a year at minimum to do. XP boosts are not comparable to them selling end game gear. Also you havent looked at the bonuses for spending points either. In no way does CP boosts trump having good gear.

750CP vs 500CP:

• -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
• +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +5.9% Armour Penetration
• +1.2% Spell Resistance
• -6.9% DoT damage taken
• -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

Show me a gear piece in-game that grants as much power over other regular gear, I dare you

Ya those whole 5% and getting more loot from chests will be awesome in pvp lol.

-5.3% stamina costs & +4.5% stamina regeneration alone are more than worth a 5-set bonus of any gear, and allow you to allocate your jewelry enchantments differently (or keep them as cost reduction/regen, and maintain insane sustain).
+9% Physical Crit Damage, again something you'd see as a 5-set bonus. Makes about 7-8% difference in DPS (as stamina NB with optimal gear)
5% Damage taken from almost every source, again something you'd see as a set bonus.


So, basicly this is like having your regular gear with the normal set bonuses, and then 3-4 additional 5-set bonuses.

All provided to you by $$$.

You still didn't answer my question. You claim you can get bigger advantage with gear, yet provide no proof of it.

Evidence to the contrary appears, and all you come up with is a strawman. C'mon, you can do better than that

You have to understand that people can't take "it's not P2W" arguments seriously when you fail to logically explain them.

What I expect from people is cold hard evidence that supports their claims, which is what I always try to provide and it'd be respectful of others to do the same (if only for the sake of having a functional argument).

Its not all provided to you by money. You have to go out and earn the XP. 750 cp and thats all you get for all that work? People are complaining they should complain that the bonuses for having alot of CP is next to nothing. Also you assume they will buy xp potions for every hour of every minute they play. Again I doubt this happens but even if it does the advantage is negligible at best. Compared with say a vr14 weapon you can actually use to kill someone or armor which protects you and gives you way more regen than a few minor percentage points.

But it is.

That is the difference between 500 & 750 (50% XP boost), the part your money buys you, not the whole difference CPs make.

For the overall benefit of 750 CPs, it'd be this (for a stamina build):

• -15.8% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
• +19% Stamina Regeneration
• +5.1% more Healing Reduction
• +4% Heavy Attack Stamina/Magicka return
• +10.1% more Healing Reduction
• -10% Break Free/Roll Dodge cost
• +10.8% Light/Heavy Attack damage
• +25% Physical Critical Strike damage
• +25% Physical damage
• +8.1% Armour Penetration
• +2.5% Armour with Medium Armour
• +8.1% Spell Resistance
• -9.5% Critical Strike damage taken
• -16.9% DoT damage taken
• -19.5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
• -19.5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken

• +33% chance on Bash to reduce enemy Movement Speed by 20% for 3 seconds
• +20% Inspiration Gains
• +10% Chance for double yields on resource nodes
• +2 Ultimate every time you activate a synergy
• +50% gold from Treasure Chests
• -10% Repair Costs
• +30% Damage on next Physical Attack after blocking a Heavy Attack
• +15% Damage on next Physical Attack after interrupting
• +12% Weapon Critical
• +10% Damage against off balance enemies
• Major Heroism after falling below 20% Health, +3 Ultimate every 1,5 seconds for 8 second duration. Can only occur every 30 seconds
• +20% Chance to restore X health when Bashing an enemy
• After Roll Dodging, gain X Armour & Spell Resistance
• Restore X Magicka when taking Flame, Frost, Shock, Magic, Earth, or Oblivion Damage equivalent to 30% of your maximum Health. Can only occur every 10 seconds.
• Restore X Health when you are hit by a Critical Attack
• After Critically striking an opponent, restore X health, 5 second cooldown
• -80% Stamina Costs after Break Free for 3 seconds
• When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
• 50% reduced Gathering times
• Better items from Treasure Chests
• 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

My point was, that the advantage that 50% more XP (than the player who plays equal amounts of time as you) grants is not negligible, as it is equal to a gear piece that had multiple strong 5-set bonuses.

...even if it was only the +9% crit damage difference someone gained over me, I'd consider that P2W.
Pretty much every second fight ends with me getting the target to 20% with stealth burst, and target healing up. That crit damage bonus would make me win those fights.

liquid_wolf wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So, basicly this is like having your regular gear with the normal set bonuses, and then 3-4 additional 5-set bonuses.

All provided to you by $$$.

That is incorrect.

It is still only provided by a time investment, but with greater rewards for time invested. The benefit can be gained by everyone, so isn't exclusive in any way.

Your concerns, however... are how overpowered Champion Points are.

Really - the only solution that fixes that is to nerf the champion points so that the difference between 500 and 750 isn't so great... otherwise someone with more free time becomes more powerful than someone who is actually giving money to the company.

Which in its own way, simply isn't fair. But that is your perspective... You want people who put more time in to be rewarded more than those who don't... but your example shows people who put in the same amount of time, but one is getting greater rewards.

The problem isn't with the XP potions, but with the potential difference in power everyone could obtain... which also happens if you remove the xp potions and simply play the game more than others.

All your examples and evidence say one thing - the champion point system needs to be dialed down a bit.

Yes, it is a time investment. Let's assume both players play the same amount of time (fair, right?). Player with more $$$ gains the above mentioned bonuses (500 vs 750).

Also, we are all paying for the game, some of us even subscribing to support the company. They do not need to extort us to get money (in fact, that is likely, in my opinion, going to have the opposite effect over long term).

But don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of "grind2win" either (though if I had to choose, I'd choose it 10 times out of 10 over P2W), which is why I've made several proposals across threads on how to improve the Champion System and have the rewarding content be the difficult one (PvE raids & competitive PvP BGs/Arenas), essentially rewarding player skill (not strictly time spent).

One way to do this would be turning the Champion System into a Horizontal system, with easily reached maximum cap for allocatable points and points beyond that unlocking more passives where you can choose to allocate points (as long as maximum cap hasn't been reached). Kind of like a talent tree.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I think it is unreasonable to ask them to change the entire champion system. In the end only people who dont have alot of time to play will use these to catch up. I see no issue with it.

DogFaceInBananaPatch

I disapprove of all you humans discussing this subject any further.

Rune_Relic

Shehriazad wrote: »

I still fail to see how 50% XP potions are pay to win.

Grinding XP faster =/= Turning you into a winner


Sure...if the person spams those pots until he reaches 3600 CP...he will get there faster than a non paying person...but let's be real...you are still looking at hundreds to thousands of hours of playtime, aye?

Not to mention CPs have diminishing returns. The difference between someone with 2400 CP vs someone with 3600 is pretty much 0 in a battle situation.

Since at some point you will have to skill CPs that are useless to you and don't actually make you stronger in battle. So what's the point?

Yes...someone spending a few hundred $ a month will be at the new insane CP cap faster than you...but does he get something youc an't get? No.

Will he be way stronger in battle than you? Hell no.


I'd say after like 1000 CP or so the BATTLE stat difference for ANY given build should be somewhere between 0-1%.

And what of the stamina/health/magicka you also gain from CP points ?
This is a dynamic resource game at the end of the day.
You know when you hit 1000 points you have 48% more magicka stamina then 0 points ?
At 500 points you get 33% gain...that's a 15% raw increase on resources + passive bonuses that scale off it.

There are plenty of people earning CP at 2x the rate the minimum.
Many are grinding at leats 4x the rate and 250 point is only 22%. So that's a 26% increase on all resoruces over them...with power and passives scaled on top.

maryriv

Exp potions are P2W and zos is not happy you are pointing that out.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Shehriazad wrote: »

I still fail to see how 50% XP potions are pay to win.

Grinding XP faster =/= Turning you into a winner


Sure...if the person spams those pots until he reaches 3600 CP...he will get there faster than a non paying person...but let's be real...you are still looking at hundreds to thousands of hours of playtime, aye?

Not to mention CPs have diminishing returns. The difference between someone with 2400 CP vs someone with 3600 is pretty much 0 in a battle situation.

Since at some point you will have to skill CPs that are useless to you and don't actually make you stronger in battle. So what's the point?

Yes...someone spending a few hundred $ a month will be at the new insane CP cap faster than you...but does he get something youc an't get? No.

Will he be way stronger in battle than you? Hell no.


I'd say after like 1000 CP or so the BATTLE stat difference for ANY given build should be somewhere between 0-1%.

And what of the stamina/health/magicka you also gain from CP points ?
This is a dynamic resource game at the end of the day.
You know when you hit 1000 points you have 48% more magicka stamina then 0 points ?

Where do you get stamina from in the CP tree? I only see stamina regen.

Rune_Relic

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Shehriazad wrote: »

I still fail to see how 50% XP potions are pay to win.

Grinding XP faster =/= Turning you into a winner


Sure...if the person spams those pots until he reaches 3600 CP...he will get there faster than a non paying person...but let's be real...you are still looking at hundreds to thousands of hours of playtime, aye?

Not to mention CPs have diminishing returns. The difference between someone with 2400 CP vs someone with 3600 is pretty much 0 in a battle situation.

Since at some point you will have to skill CPs that are useless to you and don't actually make you stronger in battle. So what's the point?

Yes...someone spending a few hundred $ a month will be at the new insane CP cap faster than you...but does he get something youc an't get? No.

Will he be way stronger in battle than you? Hell no.


I'd say after like 1000 CP or so the BATTLE stat difference for ANY given build should be somewhere between 0-1%.

And what of the stamina/health/magicka you also gain from CP points ?
This is a dynamic resource game at the end of the day.
You know when you hit 1000 points you have 48% more magicka stamina then 0 points ?

Where do you get stamina from in the CP tree? I only see stamina regen.

http://asolutionaday.com/elder-scrolls-calculators/elder-scrolls-online-stamina-calculator-tower-tree-champion/
Base Max stamina/magicka/health increase for every point allotted into CS.

1.0x 0 stamina multipyer
1.2238928501x 250 stamina multiplyer
1.3307654297x 500 stamina multiplyer
1.4155846435x 750 stamina multiplyer
1.4886523593x 1000 stamina multiplyer