How do you feel about the B2P announcement

JamilaRaj

Dislike - other

Morshire wrote: »

The real issue, to offer a B2P model that appeals to your type of game play means that my type of game play suffers, and vice versa. The question really, to me anyway, is why should we have to give up this game and the payment model we prefer, so that some one else can gain access? You won't see me going to a F2P or B2P game community and demanding that they refocus their game and payment method to suit my style. What makes it right for anyone to come here and do the same? (Just a generalized question, not meant or directed at anyone in particular.)

But you should try it someday. There are people in P2W games that know nothing else, it's our duty to come and reveal the truth, that there were and can be games witch actual game mechanic, not just all pervasive corruption in its place. To be to them what Morpheus was to Neo, with pills and such.

Anyway, as for P2W people coming here...Obviously they were in part always here, but were kept in line by ZOS's then commitment to P2P, so their threads "can we have X for cash" were sporadic and pointless. Now ZOS is going to give them whatever they want, as long as they pay, so they are becoming more vocal in their demands.
More importantly, though, a game that has just gone P2W is very attractive to them; the game is P2W but still good, because it had not time to deteriorate substantially as a result of business model yet, and has sizeable community of players, unwilling to participate in corruption, over which advantage can be bought. After some time of decline gameplay-wise and with players either leaving or giving way and paying for advantages too, the game will be far less attractive even for whales, which I think brings us back to staple topic of long term viability (or rather lack of it) of P2W games.

eisberg

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

eisberg wrote: »

List some subscription only MMOs that have released since 2005 that had growth to at the very least 2010 and still running today, and any MMO released after 2010 to have growth past shortly after releasing and still running today. Cite sources for subscriber numbers.

I state that "only susbcription MMOs ever were succesful" and that's your answer? Yes, please, keep on moving the goal post in a ridiculous fashion.

Does being released in 2003 made Eve Online exist in a vacuum and not have to compete against the rest of the market?
Does my answer to your question would change my initialy stated fact?
No on both counts.

I'll indulge you, though, and I hope that in return you'll answer my much simpler question:
Give me a list of f2p/b2p MMOs, including those that switched, that grew in revenue for more than 12 months in a row.

1. Dofus:
Released in France in September 2004, more like a beta, then September 2005 worldwide. It is still up and running and while competing with WoW when WoW was at its strongest.
Dofus grew to 1.5M susbcribers in late
2009. http://www.develop-online.net/news/ankama-celebrates-ten-million-dofus-players/0103554
In 2010 it was at 3.5M subscribers:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/mmo-dofus-has-30-million-users
The game is the first occurence I've can remember of an urestricted trial/demo, something WoW has added later on.
http://www.dofus.com/en/mmorpg/why-subscribe
For more context, the trial zone is about as large as Stros Mkai in ESO.
I recommend to check out this game. Loads of great concepts.

2. Dragon Quest X:
This one is mainly Japan and asian market, so it may not applyif you decide to change your "standards" again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Quest_X#Sales_and_subscriptions
Game released in 2012, started off with 400k susbcribers at launch.
http://nintendoeverything.com/dragon-quest-x-played-300000-people-day/
In 2014 has 300k actives per day. I don't know if it counts "kid's time" players though, pretty much 2h per day per account for free. Mostly japanese resources don't help here.
It shows an actual growth in the playerbase, susbcriber base if it doesn't count kid time. (remember how Dofus had 1M a day with 3.5M subs)

3. Darkfall Online:
This one released in February 2009, had a rocky launch and was very niche.
It grew for at least over a year:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/259666/DarkFall-Counts-for-both-Servers.html
it set up a $1 paid trial for the game which actually was quite succesful, and then switched it to a 14 days free trial.
It went on to shut down for a few months at the end of 2012 and get rebranded for a relaunch in early 2013. This costed a lot of susbcribers due to mismanagement.
Yet, it currently is still running at 20k subscribers.
http://mmofallout.com/darkfall-unholy-wars-short-on-subscribers/
The rebrand wasn't a success, but the game is still alive 6 years later.
I recommend you try this game too. I can't stand it due to having played the superior first version, but it still an impressive game in its own right and in many ways more advanced and more accomplished than ESO.

4. Wurm Online:
Initialy released in 2006, it got a complete overhaul/re-release in december of 2012 and seem to have been growing ever since. It also has an unlimited trial with a cool "plex" like system.
http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/99534-premium-population-graph-for-all-servers-updated-92014/

I sincerely think this list should include other games that were released before and managed to grow despite WoW. They prove the point that WoW did not impact the market the way you think it did just as much as your constraints.
Eve Online: 500k
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Subscribers
Great article on Serenity(Eve in China)
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/05/16/big-trouble-in-eve-china/
FFXI:Release 2002, 500k subs in 2008 and still running.
http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16794
I expect FFXIV to eventually make the list too, I can't wait for March 31 and their release of revenue info.

I think there is a pattern to notice here.All those games have a trial. WoW too has a sort of trial system limited in level. I guess that the barrier of entry of a subscription and box price is lifted whenever players get to try the game.

Actually, thank you for making me make this list.
You made me make a shopping list.

I never moved the goal post. I have said multiple times that MMOs released in 2004 or before saw increase in population for some years, but any MMO released after WoW, not so much. WoW did change the whole industry, to say it hasn't is completely naive. After 2004 is when it started that MMOs when released peak out very early after release, and then go down from there. In 2010 looks to be when growth stopped for all MMOs, minus Eve which held on a for a few more years before it started to fall as well.

1- Released in 2004
2- We'll have to wait and see. Going by information from Square Enix about actual subscriber numbers, we only have information from last year, and they said less then 1 million subscribers for all 3 of their MMOs. This points to decreasing soon after launching.
3 and 4- Looks like both games have ~50K subscribers or less. Ok, I'll concede that any MMO can probably keep at least around that number for subscribers. But for AAA MMOs, I highly doubt they would be happy with ~50K subscribers.

How many AAA MMOs have we seen released from 2005 through 2009, only to get shut down after a couple of years? How many of those would still be here today if they would have done the switch to F2P/B2P?

Also, I am not the one that is saying in order to be a success they have to have growth for a long period. They need to be profitable, and something can still be profitable despite having less revenue then a period before. So I will not look for B2P/F2P games that have/had growth, the fact the games are still running and making new content shows they are being successful.

Morshire

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

@JamilaRaj - While it may "teach" them something, I do not feel that it is a good "moral" decision on my part. And honestly, given that mentality on other games, I am not sure the lesson would reach any good conclusion.

I do however agree that P2W is the last nail in the coffin for my gaming preference. The deterioration of the overall quality, in relation to what attracts me to a game, is in direct relation to the payment method. And you will not hear me argue that it is anything but. I personally do think that this marks the beginning of the end for me in this game. I am not disillusioned into thinking that ESO will be any different, or that I can expect different from ZOS. And even if the B2P transition brings in 5m users and 1 billion dollars a month, I am willing to bet that the overall gaming experience, for me, will still classify this game as a failure. Why, cause it did not deliver on the type of gaming that I signed up for.

So like it, or hate it, whether this game is "successful" or a "flop", is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Seraphyel

Morshire wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Have you even been reading this thread?
Facts after facts have been linked that f2p/b2p games do not work out revenue wise.

The thing is:

ESO wouldn't have lasted long as P2P. The revenue would have been - FOR SURE - less than with the model transition.

You have to realize this.

They are going B2P because it is NEEDED not because they are so generous. If they would have had enough subscribers, they wouldn't abandon P2P, not even for consoles.

I prefer ESO for 5 years with DLCs as B2P instead of ESO for 2 years with literally no content and P2P.

There is no chance for ESO to grow to the point that makes P2P financial successful for them (again?) - the PC playerbase (where P2P is targetted for) has suffered a year of beta testing and no content. Who the hell would pay for this fo another year? The console playerbase is not meant to pay a sub and could likely be bigger than the PC playerbase, but I really doubt it for the long term.

Sure they will have sales when console launch happens, but I highly doubt they will get anywhere near the point where they acknowledge their product to be a financial success.

I am not sure that this statement can be taken as fact.

I am sure about it.

There were NO news about ESOs success after launch. NOTHING. No official statement, no official numbers, no developer mentioning, nothing.

That's the best proof we can get. Silence - especially for US companies - only has to do with failures or not reaching the goals they wanted to reach.

I repeat myself but: the model change is good (and was necessary).

zeuseason

Dislike - other

Dislike because it changes the approach from a developer's standpoint and invites a poor community into the game.

This could EASILY be a sub game, forever, but still needs a few things to rope players in like a better LFG system or a better AH system.

FrostixX

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

EQBallzz

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

FrostixX

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

JamilaRaj

Dislike - other

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

FrostixX

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

JamilaRaj wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

Thanks for your answer mate. I disagree with you on one point : What makes you say that ZoS will make the cash-shop become P2W ? Do you have any sources of this "evidence" that makes you think that B2P is just the veiled face of an eventual P2W model ? ZoS has always been close to its community and costumers. They listen to them and apply their wishes. They are aware that people don't want the game to go P2W and it is not one of their objectives. They even answered some questions about this case in ESO Livestreams on Twitch.

The game is just going to adopt GW2's B2P model in order to get more players since a lot of the players don't want to monthly pay to play. P2P is nowadays dead, and WoW will be the next in a few years. Mark my words.

JamilaRaj

Dislike - other

Pretty much nobody is going to pay for no difference, to be on same level as people that do not pay, have no advantage over them. Therefore, working cash shop is inherently P2W.

MercyKilling

Sky Chancellor

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

I put dislike for all of the above reasons. I don't think going B2W is going to sustain this game for the long run. It will likely head to P2W at some point, to keep the game going (and to generate more money). I am not interested in buying mounts or items from the Crown store. I hope for the sake of this game people really love guar mounts and the costumes. The future of this game hinges on it, at this point. Also, I hope the future DLC's are outstanding or otherwise people will not even think about buying them.

Also, I think there is a good reason to doubt the SUPPORT for this game (taking out bugs etc.) and keeping up the servers (as this has already been an issue up to this point).

Morshire

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

FrostixX wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

Thanks for your answer mate. I disagree with you on one point : What makes you say that ZoS will make the cash-shop become P2W ? Do you have any sources of this "evidence" that makes you think that B2P is just the veiled face of an eventual P2W model ? ZoS has always been close to its community and costumers. They listen to them and apply their wishes. They are aware that people don't want the game to go P2W and it is not one of their objectives. They even answered some questions about this case in ESO Livestreams on Twitch.

The game is just going to adopt GW2's B2P model in order to get more players since a lot of the players don't want to monthly pay to play. P2P is nowadays dead, and WoW will be the next in a few years. Mark my words.

Well no one has "proof" that any of this will happen...unless people have developed psychic abilities. But you cannot be that naïve. On ESO and whatever other media source you'd like to name, they said this game would stay P2P or they would turn the servers off. (It changed) The "community" they are so close to screamed for them not to change the P2P to B2P. (It changed) They have said that there will be no P2W items in the cash shop. (Arguably, some see XP boosts as P2W) Truth is that they may have every intention of not going farther down this P2W rabbit hole with the cash shop (right now anyway), but all games are driven by $$$$$, no company is going to continue to develop and maintain a game for free. If the time comes that revenue takes a downward turn, ZOS will, without a doubt, change the game in whatever way they can, to generate $$$$. P2W cash shop items are the fastest and easiest means of achieving that.

Now we can all speculate on the integrity of the company, or lack there of, or even speculate on what may or may not happen in the future. But no one can "prove" that ZOS will or won't do in the future. You can't "prove" ZOS won't do it anymore than anyone else can "prove" ZOS will. People are basing their statements on past experience from other games. Those "facts" you can google yourself and form your own opinions about.

@FrostixX - If you need more "proof" about how things work here, take some time and go back over older threads in these forums. ZOS has a pretty consistent track record of going backwards on things. Good or bad is open for debate, but history will show you a glimpse of the future if you look closely enough.

cubbyhomesb14_ESO

Like - all of the "likes" above

It'll be good for the population.

FrostixX

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

Morshire wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

Thanks for your answer mate. I disagree with you on one point : What makes you say that ZoS will make the cash-shop become P2W ? Do you have any sources of this "evidence" that makes you think that B2P is just the veiled face of an eventual P2W model ? ZoS has always been close to its community and costumers. They listen to them and apply their wishes. They are aware that people don't want the game to go P2W and it is not one of their objectives. They even answered some questions about this case in ESO Livestreams on Twitch.

The game is just going to adopt GW2's B2P model in order to get more players since a lot of the players don't want to monthly pay to play. P2P is nowadays dead, and WoW will be the next in a few years. Mark my words.

Well no one has "proof" that any of this will happen...unless people have developed psychic abilities. But you cannot be that naïve. On ESO and whatever other media source you'd like to name, they said this game would stay P2P or they would turn the servers off. (It changed) The "community" they are so close to screamed for them not to change the P2P to B2P. (It changed) They have said that there will be no P2W items in the cash shop. (Arguably, some see XP boosts as P2W) Truth is that they may have every intention of not going farther down this P2W rabbit hole with the cash shop (right now anyway), but all games are driven by $$$$$, no company is going to continue to develop and maintain a game for free. If the time comes that revenue takes a downward turn, ZOS will, without a doubt, change the game in whatever way they can, to generate $$$$. P2W cash shop items are the fastest and easiest means of achieving that.

Now we can all speculate on the integrity of the company, or lack there of, or even speculate on what may or may not happen in the future. But no one can "prove" that ZOS will or won't do in the future. You can't "prove" ZOS won't do it anymore than anyone else can "prove" ZOS will. People are basing their statements on past experience from other games. Those "facts" you can google yourself and form your own opinions about.

@FrostixX - If you need more "proof" about how things work here, take some time and go back over older threads in these forums. ZOS has a pretty consistent track record of going backwards on things. Good or bad is open for debate, but history will show you a glimpse of the future if you look closely enough.

Hey mate, thanks for your answer.
First I'm going to start with the xp potions. IMO, they are not P2W items. Why ? Because it's just experience points, nothing that special. A regular player who does not use the cash-shop will still be able to play as normal and even get more xp than those xp potions if he knows good xp spots. Will xp potions screw pvp ? No, it's just xp, there is no impact on the character's power. Its just a fast way for people who re-rolled a character to xp without loosing any time. Now about ZoS. The game is going B2P, that means that you gotta buy the game in order to play it. => this is a revenue, a big one since the game will go up to its original retail price which is 59.99$. A lot of players are going to come play this game because the monthly fees are over. Most of the players will use the cash shop for cosmetics and mounts => revenue. They will still add cosmetics and mounts throughout the years => cosmetics. Why will they add P2W items if their goal is to make the B2P model a REAL ONE. You pay the game, you play. You pay more, you get DLC's (like on COD, Battlefields, or AC). Aren't WoW's extensions DLC's ? Yes they are, people pay them and don't complain. Is there a cash shop in WoW ? Yes, but only for cosmetics.

So please guys, stop being so pessimistic about the B2P model, it's the best thing you can have for this game, especially for people who don't want to monthly pay. P2P => dead, WoW will be the next, trust me.

cubbyhomesb14_ESO

Like - all of the "likes" above

FrostixX wrote: »

-snip-

So please guys, stop being so pessimistic about the B2P model, it's the best thing you can have for this game, especially for people who don't want to monthly pay. P2P => dead, WoW will be the next, trust me.

They're raging because casuals, console gamers, and former beta-players like us who haven't played since... well... beta get to stroll right in here and get the game for peanuts after they spent the last year essentially paying to test the game for us.

It's gold.

So, let's thank them for all their hard work and money spent. Thank you guys.

Morshire

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

FrostixX wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

Thanks for your answer mate. I disagree with you on one point : What makes you say that ZoS will make the cash-shop become P2W ? Do you have any sources of this "evidence" that makes you think that B2P is just the veiled face of an eventual P2W model ? ZoS has always been close to its community and costumers. They listen to them and apply their wishes. They are aware that people don't want the game to go P2W and it is not one of their objectives. They even answered some questions about this case in ESO Livestreams on Twitch.

The game is just going to adopt GW2's B2P model in order to get more players since a lot of the players don't want to monthly pay to play. P2P is nowadays dead, and WoW will be the next in a few years. Mark my words.

Well no one has "proof" that any of this will happen...unless people have developed psychic abilities. But you cannot be that naïve. On ESO and whatever other media source you'd like to name, they said this game would stay P2P or they would turn the servers off. (It changed) The "community" they are so close to screamed for them not to change the P2P to B2P. (It changed) They have said that there will be no P2W items in the cash shop. (Arguably, some see XP boosts as P2W) Truth is that they may have every intention of not going farther down this P2W rabbit hole with the cash shop (right now anyway), but all games are driven by $$$$$, no company is going to continue to develop and maintain a game for free. If the time comes that revenue takes a downward turn, ZOS will, without a doubt, change the game in whatever way they can, to generate $$$$. P2W cash shop items are the fastest and easiest means of achieving that.

Now we can all speculate on the integrity of the company, or lack there of, or even speculate on what may or may not happen in the future. But no one can "prove" that ZOS will or won't do in the future. You can't "prove" ZOS won't do it anymore than anyone else can "prove" ZOS will. People are basing their statements on past experience from other games. Those "facts" you can google yourself and form your own opinions about.

@FrostixX - If you need more "proof" about how things work here, take some time and go back over older threads in these forums. ZOS has a pretty consistent track record of going backwards on things. Good or bad is open for debate, but history will show you a glimpse of the future if you look closely enough.

Hey mate, thanks for your answer.
First I'm going to start with the xp potions. IMO, they are not P2W items. Why ? Because it's just experience points, nothing that special. A regular player who does not use the cash-shop will still be able to play as normal and even get more xp than those xp potions if he knows good xp spots. Will xp potions screw pvp ? No, it's just xp, there is no impact on the character's power. Its just a fast way for people who re-rolled a character to xp without loosing any time. Now about ZoS. The game is going B2P, that means that you gotta buy the game in order to play it. => this is a revenue, a big one since the game will go up to its original retail price which is 59.99$. A lot of players are going to come play this game because the monthly fees are over. Most of the players will use the cash shop for cosmetics and mounts => revenue. They will still add cosmetics and mounts throughout the years => cosmetics. Why will they add P2W items if their goal is to make the B2P model a REAL ONE. You pay the game, you play. You pay more, you get DLC's (like on COD, Battlefields, or AC). Aren't WoW's extensions DLC's ? Yes they are, people pay them and don't complain. Is there a cash shop in WoW ? Yes, but only for cosmetics.

So please guys, stop being so pessimistic about the B2P model, it's the best thing you can have for this game, especially for people who don't want to monthly pay. P2P => dead, WoW will be the next, trust me.

Wait, what? WOW is just cosmetics? I thought you could buy a level capped character? Even if not, comparing this to what someone else did is not the best way to make the point. (Especially since WOW is P2P still, not B2P like ESO will become) 2 different companies, 2 different games, 2 different visions, 2 different management teams and devs, etc. I am not going to argue the definitions of P2W items either. That will vary too much by player.

And your revenue assessment I can accept, but you do not account for the future in which DLC comes 1-2 a year, or not having enough people who want mounts and pretty dresses. Box sales are the "quick" cash, not long term sustainable revenue I was discussing. And not all the "new" people will be spending $$$ on mounts, etc. Long term, you do not account for continuing $$$$ flow.

And for the bold part: There is no way you can "prove" that B2P is what is best for this game. It being "best" for people who don't want to pay a sub is not true either. F2P is "best" for people who don't want to pay money. P2P is "best" for me. Your argument is that I should like this because it is better for others. So I should forgo my wants from a game for what is "best" for you. That makes no sense to me. Why should I have to give up what I want from a game so that you, and others, can be happy?

All the rest of your comments require me to respond with speculation or personal opinions. I will ignore them as arguing the merits of my beliefs and opinions is not going to accomplish anything for me. I can appreciate your opinion. Heck, I will even welcome you to the game. But there is no way I will concede that B2P is best for this game or that the future is "bright" in relation to what the future of ESO...I mean Tamriel Unlimited....and its "cash shop" items may hold.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which you are approaching this conversation. Thanks for that.

FrostixX

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

Morshire wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

FrostixX wrote: »

Now that all of you guys know what is the content of the cash shop, are you going to reconsider your answers (especially for those who chose negative answers) ?

No. It's not uncommon or unexpected that the initial cash shop offering will be innocuous. The real test will be over time. As the initial B2P/console sales die off and cash shop purchases flat-line will they start adding more and more valuable things that cross the line. They have already stated XP boosters will be included and to some that already crosses the line.

Nah don't worry mate, the game won't go P2W. Their goal is to make it go B2P in order to get more players into the game. They added the cash shop to get a slight bonus of revenues. As for now, the cash shop only features COSMETICS. The potions they added are way more weaker than the ones you can craft ingame and soul gems are really easy to get or drop. 10% more XP, gold and inspiration is a bit of a problem but don't worry, it will not have a big impact on the progression of the players. This won't change the fact that you can go lvl 1-50 in 24h by grinding or killing mobs => the progression itself is already too easy so no big impact here.

That's all I had to say, feel free to quote me and answer

The guy you quote already told you...Stuff in cash shop may change/expand over time, which makes arguments like cash shop has only X as of now, therefore Y can't happen, invalid. And not only may change, but will have to when box sales drop; from that point on, revenue will come only from cash shop and DLC (while subs are, aside from couple of associated P2W elements, only as good as cash shop and DLC) and ZOS will have to add desirable (P2W for short) items either to cash shop or DLC zones to make people spend. Of these two sources, cash shop is far easier to "develop" and milk.
"No big impact" is fallacy too. Big impact, indisputable P2W items, obvious even to people most determined to not to see, won't appear in cash shop (at least not until ESO enters terminal phase), because that would drive away from game people not buying them and people buying them as well, as these would like to think they are winning through skill, not skill with credit card. Instead, there will be number of individually low impact items that will have big impact as a whole, in order to fool the former and please the latter. Little gold saved on gems, on potions, on repairs, on mounts, here and there, can be a lot of gold in total. Same with time or exp, same with stacking of advantages from different areas.

Thanks for your answer mate. I disagree with you on one point : What makes you say that ZoS will make the cash-shop become P2W ? Do you have any sources of this "evidence" that makes you think that B2P is just the veiled face of an eventual P2W model ? ZoS has always been close to its community and costumers. They listen to them and apply their wishes. They are aware that people don't want the game to go P2W and it is not one of their objectives. They even answered some questions about this case in ESO Livestreams on Twitch.

The game is just going to adopt GW2's B2P model in order to get more players since a lot of the players don't want to monthly pay to play. P2P is nowadays dead, and WoW will be the next in a few years. Mark my words.

Well no one has "proof" that any of this will happen...unless people have developed psychic abilities. But you cannot be that naïve. On ESO and whatever other media source you'd like to name, they said this game would stay P2P or they would turn the servers off. (It changed) The "community" they are so close to screamed for them not to change the P2P to B2P. (It changed) They have said that there will be no P2W items in the cash shop. (Arguably, some see XP boosts as P2W) Truth is that they may have every intention of not going farther down this P2W rabbit hole with the cash shop (right now anyway), but all games are driven by $$$$$, no company is going to continue to develop and maintain a game for free. If the time comes that revenue takes a downward turn, ZOS will, without a doubt, change the game in whatever way they can, to generate $$$$. P2W cash shop items are the fastest and easiest means of achieving that.

Now we can all speculate on the integrity of the company, or lack there of, or even speculate on what may or may not happen in the future. But no one can "prove" that ZOS will or won't do in the future. You can't "prove" ZOS won't do it anymore than anyone else can "prove" ZOS will. People are basing their statements on past experience from other games. Those "facts" you can google yourself and form your own opinions about.

@FrostixX - If you need more "proof" about how things work here, take some time and go back over older threads in these forums. ZOS has a pretty consistent track record of going backwards on things. Good or bad is open for debate, but history will show you a glimpse of the future if you look closely enough.

Hey mate, thanks for your answer.
First I'm going to start with the xp potions. IMO, they are not P2W items. Why ? Because it's just experience points, nothing that special. A regular player who does not use the cash-shop will still be able to play as normal and even get more xp than those xp potions if he knows good xp spots. Will xp potions screw pvp ? No, it's just xp, there is no impact on the character's power. Its just a fast way for people who re-rolled a character to xp without loosing any time. Now about ZoS. The game is going B2P, that means that you gotta buy the game in order to play it. => this is a revenue, a big one since the game will go up to its original retail price which is 59.99$. A lot of players are going to come play this game because the monthly fees are over. Most of the players will use the cash shop for cosmetics and mounts => revenue. They will still add cosmetics and mounts throughout the years => cosmetics. Why will they add P2W items if their goal is to make the B2P model a REAL ONE. You pay the game, you play. You pay more, you get DLC's (like on COD, Battlefields, or AC). Aren't WoW's extensions DLC's ? Yes they are, people pay them and don't complain. Is there a cash shop in WoW ? Yes, but only for cosmetics.

So please guys, stop being so pessimistic about the B2P model, it's the best thing you can have for this game, especially for people who don't want to monthly pay. P2P => dead, WoW will be the next, trust me.

Wait, what? WOW is just cosmetics? I thought you could buy a level capped character? Even if not, comparing this to what someone else did is not the best way to make the point. (Especially since WOW is P2P still, not B2P like ESO will become) 2 different companies, 2 different games, 2 different visions, 2 different management teams and devs, etc. I am not going to argue the definitions of P2W items either. That will vary too much by player.

And your revenue assessment I can accept, but you do not account for the future in which DLC comes 1-2 a year, or not having enough people who want mounts and pretty dresses. Box sales are the "quick" cash, not long term sustainable revenue I was discussing. And not all the "new" people will be spending $$$ on mounts, etc. Long term, you do not account for continuing $$$$ flow.

And for the bold part: There is no way you can "prove" that B2P is what is best for this game. It being "best" for people who don't want to pay a sub is not true either. F2P is "best" for people who don't want to pay money. P2P is "best" for me. Your argument is that I should like this because it is better for others. So I should forgo my wants from a game for what is "best" for you. That makes no sense to me. Why should I have to give up what I want from a game so that you, and others, can be happy?

All the rest of your comments require me to respond with speculation or personal opinions. I will ignore them as arguing the merits of my beliefs and opinions is not going to accomplish anything for me. I can appreciate your opinion. Heck, I will even welcome you to the game. But there is no way I will concede that B2P is best for this game or that the future is "bright" in relation to what the future of ESO...I mean Tamriel Unlimited....and its "cash shop" items may hold.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which you are approaching this conversation. Thanks for that.

Thanks again for your answer. I've just realized that this case is more about personal opinion than anything else. I just wanted to point something out. Would you prefer, paying the game once (in other terms B2P) and play it freely without any restrictions (as Tamriel Unlimited is made for) or to buy the game and then monthly pay 14$ to keep the content updated. Do you think that if the game goes B2P, there will be no content update ? That is immoral since the goal of an MMO is to constantly have updates and new content. Except the P2W issue (that in my opinion is not going to happen), what do you fear the most that makes you so pessimistic about the game going B2P (which imo, is the best game plan an MMO can have. => buy the game => play it => enjoy) ?

Thanks for your eventual answer

Morshire

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

@FrostixX - Okay, now that we have gotten the "opinions" part of this put to rest, let me address the questions.

I personally would rather pay the monthly sub, even after purchasing the game. Why, well two fold actually (maybe more). First and foremost, a game has to make money to pay devs, etc. If they can count on my sub, and 500K more from others, the bills get paid and the devs can focus on content more because IMO they can count on X amount of $$$. If we use the B2P, or worse F2P, models, there is always going to be large ups and downs with the revenue. So let's say that at the launch they get 250M from box sales. Then they get another 80M from cash shop items. That money would be good for a time. But, after say month 6 or 9, where is the revenue? Sure, we could assume that the cash shop gave a steady 80M a month, that is still a far cry from the 320M they made at launch. After 6 or 9 months, they launch the first DLC and they see another spike in revenue (80M cash shop and another 250M from the DLC). Great again. But notice the low months in between launch and DLC? So let's just say it cost 500M to make the game, and DLC cost 250M. Even with those great returns at launch and from the DLC, the game isn't making a ton of money. But if the spend 20M for "convenient" cash shop items, they could see a monthly spike of 20M from the cash shop. It soon becomes apparent that they could spend less in development and see greater returns monthly. So from the business stand point, would you gamble on blowing out what you hope will be a badass DLC that people will come back and shell out another 250M in overall sales? What if just one DLC doesn't deliver and they actually lose money? Less risk with greater gains in offering those items in the cash shop.

The point I am making is that the company weighs risk versus reward. It is obvious that the least risk with the best returns comes from cash shop items. So the DLC gets spread out to 12 months rather than 6, but the cash shop items grow and grow. They have to offer more "convenient" items to keep people going to the cash shop. Sooner or later, they can only spin so many cosmetic/mounts. 10% XP soon becomes 25%, etc. It doesn't happen over night, but the more the company spends, the more they expect to make. 2-3 down the road, we will be offered max level characters or best gear/weapons. Those require no $$$$ to develop, as they already exist in the game, and $$$ comes in as people pay for the "convenience" of buying items that make them competitive, rather than spend the 2-3 months to grind them out. If people don't have to pay for a game anymore, B2P model, where does the cash come from to drive development? That uncertainty, IMO, leads to bad choices.

P2P, they can count on say 75% of current players being around the next month. There may be variances in revenue from the 25%, but not much. And how do you keep people subbing, keep developing content they want to keep playing. Rather simple business model, and it is straight forward for the returns. New DLC to occupy players, subs stay steady.

Sure, from a player's financial point of view, B2P makes sense. But you have to realize, this isn't a box game you buy and go home to play. All the content is in your hands immediately after purchase. Online games require servers, developers, etc to keep the lights on. Box games are sold, the company makes $$$$. Done deal. If the sales were good, they make a sequel or expansion, and make some more $$$. If it is a flop, they just move on. Online doesn't work that way.

TLDR - This is all as short and as simple as I could make it. Sorry it was so long, and I am not sure that I even explained myself good. The point I was trying to make: IMO, P2P allows the devs and the company flexibility and some stability in that they can continue to focus on the game and keeping us subbing. B2P is less certain and the focus is more on how to get or maintain cash flow. I am not saying one is bad, or good, better or worse. I am saying that I prefer the straight forward approach of P2P. Devs offer me a game, I offer them $15 a month for access. If they want to keep the $$$$, then they try to keep me entertained.

All the $$$ numbers are fake as heck, so please don't hold them for any reason other than the example they are meant to represent. My figures were pulled straight out of my arse and hold no, zero, nada in the way of factual amounts.

crislevin

It's great, I have been paying for a game with no new content for far too long. It's about time they make new content and try to attract me, rather than taking me for granted, taking sub money month after month while producing nothing for me.

Morshire

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

crislevin wrote: »

It's great, I have been paying for a game with no new content for far too long. It's about time they make new content and try to attract me, rather than taking me for granted, taking sub money month after month while producing nothing for me.

I agree, I never meant to imply that ZOS was doing anything right with the P2P model. But considering what they offered for the sub price, there is even less hope of better when they took away that revenue. This is why I am being "pessimistic" about the future.

Majic

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

The Final Word

Morshire wrote: »

The question really, to me anyway, is why should we have to give up this game and the payment model we prefer, so that some one else can gain access?

I think the more pertinent question is why ZOS would give up the subscription model if they thought it was better than the buy-to-play model.

The short answer: because they don't consider it better.

The longer answer is that there are several factors that influenced their decision, ranging from potential problems with console players, to the cataclysmic wave of subscription cancellations shortly after launch, to noting how many other MMOs are moving to or already using the model successfully.

Using the best information available to them (including a lot more proprietary data than any of us can even begin to know), ZOS made what they consider to be the best decision for the game and the success of their business.

Before continuing, I would like to point that while I favor the B2P model, I'm not in any way knocking anyone's preference for the subscription model. Many players have argued, some quite passionately, that it is better, given their reasons why, and I very much respect where they're coming from.

Subcription fans, my heart is with you and I hope you won't find the B2P model as intolerable as so many players have found the subscription model to be. While some concerns are reasonable, many are nothing more than FUD that just aren't supported by reality and will never come to pass after March 17.

My previous point about the sampling for this poll stands: the current ESO community consists entirely of players who pay for a subscription. The problem with only asking current subscribers is that a much, much larger pool of potential players is inherently excluded, rendering the question specious while simultaneously illustrating one of the problems with the model.

What renders it utterly moot, however, is that the most important opinion of all has already been expressed: ESO is dropping the subscription model, and nothing any of us have to say here will change that.

That train has sailed.

RainfeatherUK

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

It is disappointing for sure.

I see a few faces pop up who are looking forward to the new model and dont understand the whine. You simply represent the demographic shift. From loyal oldie, to regular b2p/f2p gamer. If you find happiness in dressing up characters and playing the same things over and over for years then nobody is saying thats wrong. Just that we dont want to be a part of it. (and that shockingly slow/lack of content that b2p is known for.)

Games seem to be heading towards short stay parks, with no desire to build lengthy communities. Perhaps I should retire from games too at this point! (rollseyes)

So I'd say to the naysayers overall; yes the game will transition into mediocrity. The proof is in the many other games that have followed that path. The proof that isnt anywhere good enough for those of us who loved ESO? - is this thread.

maderschramm_ESO

Like - other

This is great!

Big Elder Scrolls fan for over a decade. Was really excited for a multiplayer version of the games I love.

Participated in the beta, it was...disappointing. I assume it has been ironed out since then, but I refused to pay a monthly sub, that's not what Elder Scrolls is about. I made sure to mention that in my beta responses, unfortunately my voice was unheard, and a paid subscription was implemented, so I didn't buy the game.

Now this will go buy to play, exactly like I suggested over a year ago!

I'm hopefully optimistic, I won't buy right away, as I'm afraid (since I saw a shop in the beta) that there will be pay to win elements, but once it's been B2P a few months I'll jump right in once these suspicions are dispelled.

Zenimax, remove the shop and we're good! Really excited to play an Elder Scrolls game with my friends!

Valanos

Dislike - all of the "dislikes" above

B2P for this game im skeptical.

I have checked out champion and justice system, i greatly disapprove that the justice system just grabs ur Money With no jailtime at all, we will be at zero gold With this, we should give a choice between gold , jail and and to flee from justice.
I do not like the New weapon animations, the old ones were better than the New ones.
I do not like that the cash shop will sell motifs eventually not matter what the devs say now, that will change With time.
The pleasure of playing this game has been taken from me, i wanted to give it a chance, but as it is now, its a no go for me.
Im really disappointed


From this moment i have unsubbed, and i wont Return unless Things do change.

Bye

Danikat

Like - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly fees

I'm happy about it.

I've been a fan of TES since Morrowind, so I signed up for the betas as soon as I heard about it, but I'm not a fan of subscription games so that pretty much killed my interest. I can see the advantages of the model for some people but for me the negatives far out-weigh the positives.

Mainly because I have a pretty erratic schedule. I can easily afford to pay the subscription, but if I pay and then don't have much time to play I'd resent paying for time I'm not using. And it's rare for me to get 4 weeks in a row when I do have time and impossible to predict that 3-4 weeks in advance when I'd have to pay the sub for the month. People often compare paying a sub for a game to buying a few cups of (IMO over-priced) coffee, as an example of how easily affordable it is for most people. Which is true, but for me it'd be like buying 2 cups of coffee and only finishing 1/2 of one and 1/4 of the next. The first time I might shrug it off, but if it keeps happening I'm not going to keep buying coffee.

But also if I'm paying for the time whether I use it or not I end up feeling like I have to play to make use of it. And then, even if I'd actually be playing either way, I feel like I'm just doing it because I have to and it makes it less enjoyable, which seems to defeat the point a bit.

I admit I'm a bit sceptical about what will be in the crown store, but I do think it's possible for a B2P game to avoid being P2W. I think GW2 (and GW1) pulls it off. The exact details depend on a lot of factors (for example they do sell boosters, some of which look unfair at first, like +50% XP from kills, but the mechanics of the game negate that - levelling is pretty fast anyway and you have to go out of your way to make the booster worthwhile, so it doesn't have much of an impact) but it can be done and so far ESO seems to be going about it the right way.

Naor_Sarethi

Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity items

Just don't make the Crown Store P2W and erase that "catching up" idea from your mind as quickly as you can. Nobody wants that. Alts are one story, new players are a whole different thing.

And for the devs.... the way you're going to make this transition now will either keep this game alive for years or kill it really really fast.
So don't be fooled by a quick rise in players, because if you can't satisfy the people who have payed for an entire year for a very bugged game in the beginning at least and still do until now, then exchanging that loyalty for a quick influx of a terrible community is NOT worth it.

Butterdtoast

Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity items

I like the change, could bring more people into the game and also bring old players like myself, back.. I'm just happy that the game is making progress. I was there for beta.......(the pvp lag was real). But yeah, game just feels better now, maybe it's the justice system.....idk. I can honestly say I am impressed so far. Wish they would have released it, with this much polish, so that they would not have lost so many of those initial free 30 day subs that vanished, due to bugs, lag, broken classes, ect. I'm telling you all this (being someone who never writes reviews) because I WANT this game to succeed, I love the lore of TES universe. Some may even call me a "fan boy". But can you blame me? Morrowind? Yeah, that's what I thought.