frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.
Cant agree with that too.
If the game is freaking good, it will make success regardless of business model.
Imho, if ESO manage to keep b2p like gw2, without greedy things on the cash shop, and at the same time being able to keep their subs happy, we will see it grow a lot.
You keep on refering to GW2, which is not a bad game, yet they are not managing to grow in revenue. There are no examples of cash shop oriented games growing in revenue and ESO won't be the exception.
Following the GW2 formula would just mean to lose revenue just as fast.
Other games can lose less fast by going p2w though, which is sort of mandatory after some point or the devs don't get paid.
By your logic, the only game doing fine is WoW. I guess we are screwed than
But the important is, even if ESO doesnt explode in dollars after being B2P, the important thing is that it needs to be better than its now with subs.
And subs will die, this is a fact. People day by day dont want to pay subs anymore, cause people dont want to play the same game for lots of years like in the old days.
Eve Online, FFXIV, Lineage, and others I'm unaware of.
Even UO still pulled not too long ago 90k subscription, that's as much revenue than the entire Funcom games group.
People never wanted to pay for susbcriptions. People never wanted to play games for years. The MMO market has always been a niche compared to the rest of the gaming world. That doesn't mean that the susbcription model is on its way out, it just means that companies are currently trying to address MMOs to non MMO players, and they are all failing.
But that kind of model actually drive away the actual core audience of MMOs and the non mmo players are naturally less commited, so f2p/b2p games are bound to fail.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.
After going F2P, lotro released Moria, Lothlorien, Rohan... you could not like it, but it was great for me, and too many others I know.
And ESO is not going F2P, it's B2P. Different things, regardless you think they are not.
My god, people are so used of being sucked (sub fee), that the fact that they dont need to keep paying that make them forget that they need to spend 60 bucks in the game.
Its almost masochistic oO
I said I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. I never said F2P and B2P was the same thing. So not sure what you are on about there.
I'm glad you enjoyed the new content in LOTRO but I sure didn't. It sucked compared to the Shadows of Angmar days when the quality and detail of the content was amazing. It was also supplemented by an excellent combat system that actually required intelligent and thought-provoking gameplay.
Now it's devolved into a simplistic button-mashing chore that a 2 year old could play by banging his hands on the keyboard. It's not even remotely the same game it was - and might as well be compared to a coloring book for toddlers.
And I'm not masochistic. I just rather pay a subscription to play an interesting game instead of not pay one to play a uninteresting game.
If the quality of gameplay in ESO improves as a result of it dropping subscriptions I'll be pleasantly surprised. But that's a big IF considering my past experiences.
The changes in LOTRO gameplay is not because of f2p, is a devs decision, this will happen even if they kept subs, unfortunatelly.
We really hope that ESO improves too, everyone that likes ESO trully wants this. Let's hope that you got surprised
GhostShadows wrote: »most of u dont realise it is already a pay to win after 1.6.
if u get power from champion points and if u get 10% extra exp for keep sub, u pay to win.
Maybe i m rong but i see it like that.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
GhostShadows wrote: »most of u dont realise it is already a pay to win after 1.6.
if u get power from champion points and if u get 10% extra exp for keep sub, u pay to win.
Maybe i m rong but i see it like that.
As long as it keep with the diminushing returns, I dont see it as a big problem.
Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.
After going F2P, lotro released Moria, Lothlorien, Rohan... you could not like it, but it was great for me, and too many others I know.
And ESO is not going F2P, it's B2P. Different things, regardless you think they are not.
My god, people are so used of being sucked (sub fee), that the fact that they dont need to keep paying that make them forget that they need to spend 60 bucks in the game.
Its almost masochistic oO
I said I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. I never said F2P and B2P was the same thing. So not sure what you are on about there.
I'm glad you enjoyed the new content in LOTRO but I sure didn't. It sucked compared to the Shadows of Angmar days when the quality and detail of the content was amazing. It was also supplemented by an excellent combat system that actually required intelligent and thought-provoking gameplay.
Now it's devolved into a simplistic button-mashing chore that a 2 year old could play by banging his hands on the keyboard. It's not even remotely the same game it was - and might as well be compared to a coloring book for toddlers.
And I'm not masochistic. I just rather pay a subscription to play an interesting game instead of not pay one to play a uninteresting game.
If the quality of gameplay in ESO improves as a result of it dropping subscriptions I'll be pleasantly surprised. But that's a big IF considering my past experiences.
The changes in LOTRO gameplay is not because of f2p, is a devs decision, this will happen even if they kept subs, unfortunatelly.
We really hope that ESO improves too, everyone that likes ESO trully wants this. Let's hope that you got surprised
ESO is a niche game. It appeals to old school RPGers who appreciate long term gameplay elements like complex character building and world exploration. Younger gamers don't care for this sort of thing and scorn it as grinding.
So If they abandon the current model to try and increase revenue by appealing to the B2P/F2P crowd they are going to alienate those who currently do play. Because that will take a huge adjustment to current gameplay. That's what I am saying and that's what LOTRO did.
I hope I'm surprised too.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
But the business model impacts how the game gets developed.
If you make your money on keeping people engaged with the game for years, then you'll develop the game towards that end.
If you make your money by selling items on the cash shop or DLCs, then that's what you'll be focused on.
The issue here is that one way is sustainable and geared towards the long term, the other is burning the candle by both ends.
A subscription is not a bad move towards the customers, quite the contrary.
It is offering a service for a fixed amount of money with no hidden costs. Ensure that you are providing quality and you won't be losing subscribers.
In a cash shop model, once a player has paid, he's no longer interesting.
GW2 is the same, they have no interest in keeping you around because they already have your money. It's actually more interesting for them if you buy the game and never actually log in.
You may feel that for you this move is interesting, that you'll be saving money, but the game will end up, at best, not being improved and you'll get bored of it.
The norm being the p2w and purposeful breaking of the game in order to increase revenue.
There is a reason why there aren't succesful f2p/b2p mmos, and that's because it doesn't work for mmorpgs.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
But the business model impacts how the game gets developed.
If you make your money on keeping people engaged with the game for years, then you'll develop the game towards that end.
If you make your money by selling items on the cash shop or DLCs, then that's what you'll be focused on.
The issue here is that one way is sustainable and geared towards the long term, the other is burning the candle by both ends.
A subscription is not a bad move towards the customers, quite the contrary.
It is offering a service for a fixed amount of money with no hidden costs. Ensure that you are providing quality and you won't be losing subscribers.
In a cash shop model, once a player has paid, he's no longer interesting.
GW2 is the same, they have no interest in keeping you around because they already have your money. It's actually more interesting for them if you buy the game and never actually log in.
You may feel that for you this move is interesting, that you'll be saving money, but the game will end up, at best, not being improved and you'll get bored of it.
The norm being the p2w and purposeful breaking of the game in order to increase revenue.
There is a reason why there aren't succesful f2p/b2p mmos, and that's because it doesn't work for mmorpgs.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
This is not new, people have always wanted stuff for free and they always will.
But on the other hand, they will always pay for what they find valuable.
Whether it is a costume in a cash shop or a susbcription for a game that lives up to it.
MMOs always were a niche, they are not only products but a service and there is demand for that. UO got to 250k, EQ got to 400k, Eve to 700k, Lineage 1M, FFXIV 2M and WoW 17M.
I've been posting this link a couple times this past few days, but it is a really insightful essay on what MMOs are and what hardships they are going through currently:
http://mud.co.uk/richard/The Decline of MMOs.pdf
The author is one of the most respected "researcher" in the field of MMOs, and I suggest paying attention to what he has to say.
"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
I get your points, I pay in euro myself so it is more for me too. But this is a self centered point of view.
An MMO is not only a game service, it is a game development service. You pay the devs for them to expand the game for it to be played for years.
The long term comes from that: the resources and the necessity to create a game people continue to play "forever".
As the game improves, it passes the bar for more and more players.
As long as a game is well managed, it continues to grow. f2p and b2p games canno be well managed as their business models are too agressive.
In the words of ZOS directors: a cash shop requires sacrifices.
@eisberg
No they don't need players to remain engaged. They need them to be engaged enough to have an impulse buy during the "honey moon" phase.
After that, once players have "finished" the game, they won't pay for anything any more, so they might as well log off.
Only games where other players are content have any interest in keeping people playing, but ESO is not geared like that.
On your second point: There has never been a succesful f2p/b2p title in the western market.
GW2 is what came the closest, and it is a commercial success, but seeing its free fall in revenue, it is not a successful MMO. Definitely not as successful as a subscription based one any way.
If yo uwant to call a10 years old game finally stoping to increase a failure, please go ahead.
About new games, all those switches are not failures but planned obsolescence.
It's easier to get a quick cash and then leave a project to rot rather than commit 10 years of your studio's life into only one project, even if it means losing money in the process. As long as investors get ROI and some bonus profit, they are happy to move on to the next project.
And again: where are you getting that statistic for FFXIV? Every other source on the net, even official ones, point at FFXIV being at 2M subscribers, some even 2.3M. I could find some saying that FF11 was at 600K at the launch of of FF14, so maybe your 1M stat is a of all MMOS except FF14 ?
http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2014_01en.pdfThree major MMO titles—“FINAL FANTASY XIV: A
REALM REBORN,” which began operation last August,
“DRAGON QUEST X,” which was launched in August
2012, and “FINAL FANTASY XI,” which has entered its
thirteenth year of operation—maintain nearly 1,000,000
paying subscribers all together, and have established a
solid revenue base
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
This is not new, people have always wanted stuff for free and they always will.
But on the other hand, they will always pay for what they find valuable.
Whether it is a costume in a cash shop or a susbcription for a game that lives up to it.
MMOs always were a niche, they are not only products but a service and there is demand for that. UO got to 250k, EQ got to 400k, Eve to 700k, Lineage 1M, FFXIV 2M and WoW 17M.
I've been posting this link a couple times this past few days, but it is a really insightful essay on what MMOs are and what hardships they are going through currently:
http://mud.co.uk/richard/The Decline of MMOs.pdf
The author is one of the most respected "researcher" in the field of MMOs, and I suggest paying attention to what he has to say.
I already read this article, but I dont agree with everything.
In the old days, the main reason for the mmo's success were not subscription, but the love of the devs to their work. You can see this even in arpgs, the difference between diablo 1 and 2 vs diablo 3 is brutal. The depth, the details, the complexity of systems.
Subscription was a thing cause of the lack of option. There was no options in the past if you wanted to play a MMO, but there is now.
I really think that if subs are a great thing, they will be very used till the present, and its not the case. Companies follow the market demands, so they do what people want them to do.
If subs costs were more fair, I would pay it gladly in order to have a good game. Something like PS+ (50 bucks an year) or 2-3 bucks/month, like I said before. 15$ a month is too much.
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
I get your points, I pay in euro myself so it is more for me too. But this is a self centered point of view.
An MMO is not only a game service, it is a game development service. You pay the devs for them to expand the game for it to be played for years.
The long term comes from that: the resources and the necessity to create a game people continue to play "forever".
As the game improves, it passes the bar for more and more players.
As long as a game is well managed, it continues to grow. f2p and b2p games canno be well managed as their business models are too agressive.
In the words of ZOS directors: a cash shop requires sacrifices.
@eisberg
No they don't need players to remain engaged. They need them to be engaged enough to have an impulse buy during the "honey moon" phase.
After that, once players have "finished" the game, they won't pay for anything any more, so they might as well log off.
Only games where other players are content have any interest in keeping people playing, but ESO is not geared like that.
On your second point: There has never been a succesful f2p/b2p title in the western market.
GW2 is what came the closest, and it is a commercial success, but seeing its free fall in revenue, it is not a successful MMO. Definitely not as successful as a subscription based one any way.
If yo uwant to call a10 years old game finally stoping to increase a failure, please go ahead.
About new games, all those switches are not failures but planned obsolescence.
It's easier to get a quick cash and then leave a project to rot rather than commit 10 years of your studio's life into only one project, even if it means losing money in the process. As long as investors get ROI and some bonus profit, they are happy to move on to the next project.
And again: where are you getting that statistic for FFXIV? Every other source on the net, even official ones, point at FFXIV being at 2M subscribers, some even 2.3M. I could find some saying that FF11 was at 600K at the launch of of FF14, so maybe your 1M stat is a of all MMOS except FF14 ?
From Square Enixhttp://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2014_01en.pdfThree major MMO titles—“FINAL FANTASY XIV: A
REALM REBORN,” which began operation last August,
“DRAGON QUEST X,” which was launched in August
2012, and “FINAL FANTASY XI,” which has entered its
thirteenth year of operation—maintain nearly 1,000,000
paying subscribers all together, and have established a
solid revenue base
Your 2 Million subscribers news is actually 2 million registered users, Registered Users =/= Subscribed Users.
Also, there is a ton of successful, F2P/B2P MMOs in the Market, otherwise they would still not be running today, they would still not be making new content, or doing update now. If they are being profitable, they are being successful. I have not seen any evidence of any MMO (subscription or not) that has actually increased in Revenue over their historic peak revenue for years now. Some of those MMOs have an increase in revenue over the quarter before it due to expansion being released, or a major update being released, but then they start falling again.
As for the "planned obsolescence", that is just an assumption coming from you, and I see no logic in where you are getting that. These MMOs that started off as subscription MMOs, they stated why they wanted to do that before they even released, but things changed. Logic dictates things changed, and they had to change their plans.
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Grunge
I get your points, I pay in euro myself so it is more for me too. But this is a self centered point of view.
An MMO is not only a game service, it is a game development service. You pay the devs for them to expand the game for it to be played for years.
The long term comes from that: the resources and the necessity to create a game people continue to play "forever".
As the game improves, it passes the bar for more and more players.
As long as a game is well managed, it continues to grow. f2p and b2p games canno be well managed as their business models are too agressive.
In the words of ZOS directors: a cash shop requires sacrifices.
@eisberg
No they don't need players to remain engaged. They need them to be engaged enough to have an impulse buy during the "honey moon" phase.
After that, once players have "finished" the game, they won't pay for anything any more, so they might as well log off.
Only games where other players are content have any interest in keeping people playing, but ESO is not geared like that.
On your second point: There has never been a succesful f2p/b2p title in the western market.
GW2 is what came the closest, and it is a commercial success, but seeing its free fall in revenue, it is not a successful MMO. Definitely not as successful as a subscription based one any way.
If yo uwant to call a10 years old game finally stoping to increase a failure, please go ahead.
About new games, all those switches are not failures but planned obsolescence.
It's easier to get a quick cash and then leave a project to rot rather than commit 10 years of your studio's life into only one project, even if it means losing money in the process. As long as investors get ROI and some bonus profit, they are happy to move on to the next project.
And again: where are you getting that statistic for FFXIV? Every other source on the net, even official ones, point at FFXIV being at 2M subscribers, some even 2.3M. I could find some saying that FF11 was at 600K at the launch of of FF14, so maybe your 1M stat is a of all MMOS except FF14 ?
From Square Enixhttp://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/pdf/ar_2014_01en.pdfThree major MMO titles—“FINAL FANTASY XIV: A
REALM REBORN,” which began operation last August,
“DRAGON QUEST X,” which was launched in August
2012, and “FINAL FANTASY XI,” which has entered its
thirteenth year of operation—maintain nearly 1,000,000
paying subscribers all together, and have established a
solid revenue base
Your 2 Million subscribers news is actually 2 million registered users, Registered Users =/= Subscribed Users.
Also, there is a ton of successful, F2P/B2P MMOs in the Market, otherwise they would still not be running today, they would still not be making new content, or doing update now. If they are being profitable, they are being successful. I have not seen any evidence of any MMO (subscription or not) that has actually increased in Revenue over their historic peak revenue for years now. Some of those MMOs have an increase in revenue over the quarter before it due to expansion being released, or a major update being released, but then they start falling again.
As for the "planned obsolescence", that is just an assumption coming from you, and I see no logic in where you are getting that. These MMOs that started off as subscription MMOs, they stated why they wanted to do that before they even released, but things changed. Logic dictates things changed, and they had to change their plans.
That's what I thought, you're operating on outdated information.
That financial report was written early 2014, we are now nearly a year later.
But it's an understandable mistake when even "profesionals" make it.
http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/2/7480177/square-enix-final-fantasy-14-final-fantasy-11-dragon-quest-10-subscribers
You have a couple articles online that cite that as a source but didn't bother to correct afterwards.
Not only that, but that document doesn't take into account the Chinese market.
In FFXIV's case, what they call registered users could actually be susbcribers due to how chinese players cannot be called susbcribers.(they pay hourly) I agree it is ambiguous, but that's just japanese people being japanese.
WoW has no issues calling those chinese players "susbcribers". Eve Online does too. (500k(west) + 200k(China) subs)
The point is that with the other numbers we have access to, at the latest news 750K daily active players excluding China, the 2M total "susbcriber" number doesn't seeem far fetched. Usually the amount of people online daily is around 1/5th of the playerbase. But you do have a point, it is ambiguous.
Let's wait for March 31 2015 to see how things really went for them.
Finaly, "planed obsolescence" is not the proper term but it should have conveyed the notion more easily as it is a more know term.
The proper term is "intertemporal price discrimination". And it's not an assumption, it's just how the gaming industry, among others, works.
In short, it is the same process a normal game goes through. It get released $60, then the price gets lowered until everyone buys it. It maximise sales for a product by targeting the value to the various categories on the spectrum of potential customers. It starts high for early adopters and ends up low for late adopters that would never buy it unless on sale.
Even if the price is much lower, it's money that would not have been earned otherwise.
Unfortunately, that model doesn't work for MMOs.
Or to be exact, it is not the best model for MMOs. MMOs are not products but services, they have ongoing costs, but more importantly, they can have ongoing revenue.
Sure they still make money by starting sub then switching to cash shop. The people only willing to pay $20 here and there would never have paid a sub. They get money faster and from a wider audience, but in total they gain less compared to the sustained revenue of a subscription.
Staying alive is not a measure of success. Growing is.
A company who's revenue is declining year after year is failing, even if it manages to keep the lights on.
Not many MMOs succeed, in part because it is hard to create a working MMO, partly because of the above illustrated principle. But of the few that have succeeded in the past, all were subscription based.
Until an f2p/b2p MMO manages to have 4 consecutive years of growth in his life cycle, like succesful sub MMOs, there are no examples of one being succesful.
Most can't even pull half a year of growth and their peak is at launch/switch.
kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »I would say the biggest reason ESO failed was because of their horrible customer service, WoW got it right, ESO, failed.
AshySamurai wrote: »Well, I did my best in defending ZOS's desigions. Time to grab my torch and join angry crowd.
Save a torch for me.
Was fun while it lasted. GG guys.
#Unsubbed
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@eisberg
You are exhausting.
I'm not making any assumption, I'm just explaining to you how the entertainment industry works. Movies, music, traditional games, they are all using the same marketing techniques.
Start the price high, then lower it until you've sold the product to the most people possible.
Except it doesn't work well for MMOs because they are not products but services. Whether it is done on purpose to gain as much cash as possible quickly then move on, or it is a genuine mistake due to lack of experience, it still is a loss in revenue over the long term.
Most MMO publishers still reduce their staff at launch, just like they would with a traditional game. Some of those people that have launched dozens of games are now incompetent at their new jobs.
WoW did not change the market, most WoW players are not MMO players, and when they quit WoW they do not join another MMO.
What WoW has changed is the perception of investors and what they expect from a game. That's why we've seen so many WoW clones and games being build to be profitable only with millions of players. They were doomed to fail.
On another hand, games with their own niche grew, even after 2004.
This is the period where Eve saw its growth despite being, according to you, "competing" over susbcribers with WoW.
Same for Dofus, its unique turn based system got it to grow tremendously over the same period and it is still running strong nowadays.
Some mismanaged games like Darkfall even managed to grow for a couple years before being run into the ground by bad decisions.
I'm sure there are others, but I don't need to look more into it because it is irelevant to my point: The only games that have ever been succesful were susbcription based. Be it now or before 2004.
If the f2p/b2p was such a better system, all the outliers should be f2p/b2p games. Except they aren't even close to become outliers, not even a single one.