Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
How do you feel about the B2P announcement
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BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveAlphashado wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »As for the polls accuracy: No poll in existance is 100% accurate.
Most are of 1000-2500 people to represent populations of millions.
That's good enough to get a good feeling of the general population and opinion trends. They don't need to be accurate.
What this poll here shows is the opinion of over 1000 people out of a population of a few hundred thousands. The sample is biased towards those that care enough about the game to have bought it and hang out on forums.
In short, this poll shows the opinion of those tgat matter for the long term survival of an mmo.
I don't doubt there may be 100ks people out there that want to see the game go b2p and millions that want it to be f2p, but their opinions don't matter.
Retention is more important than acquisition. Especially when dealing with fickle and greedy new players that just want to consume without giving back.
exactly. well put.
Yeah, I am sure that the opinion of a user base that was shrinking very fast is the best opinion to go with.
Most people (like you) assume that this B2P conversion was because the subscription wasn't bringing in enough revenue and the population was dwindling. It's only natural to think that way because every other MMO that dropped subscription did it for that reason.
HOWEVER. The gigantic difference between ESO and all those other games is that ESO is launching with console versions. That changes the scenario dramatically.
I've been playing this game since launch. I have seen the ebb and flow of the population. I recruit for a major trading guild. I have to recruit 5-10 people every day or so because we boot people after 10 days offline. Know what? That never changed. Never. It was a steady flow of 5-10 people leaving the game every single day from launch till right now. "Hah!" You say. "See! Look at all the people leaving in droves!"
Well here is the kicker. Every single day we are EASILY replacing those players with new players. Not once during the entire duration of this game since launch have we EVER struggled to replace those that left. There was in influx of new players every day that matched the numbers of those that left. After the CS was announced, the population actually increased drastically. Low level zones were overflowing with new players.
Then B2P was announced.
It wasn't because the population was low.
It was because ZoS couldn't come to a legal agreement with Xbox and PS in regards to charging a subscription for consoles.
So please stop with all the "the game was dying" nonsense. That may have applied to other MMOs, but the Console launch absolutely took a hot steaming dump on a loyal, robust subscription community. EVE and WoW are still going strong with a subscription and I am 100% positive that ESO could have as well if it weren't for consoles.
yet Final Fantasy 11 and 14, both on the consoles and have a subscription. So what does this game going to console have to do with anything? Obviously a subscription based game can be on the consoles.
Sony specifically waved the network connection fee for FFXIV, and 11 is on consoles that don't have network fees. However Microsoft was unwilling to wave the Xbox live fee (which is why Yoshida - Director of FFXIV - specifically said there would be no xbox one port, last I heard at least). A very likely B2P scenario is because Microsoft refused to wave the fee, and ZOS wanting to release to a console they had already developed a port to - made a decision.
Edit: I'll concede that FFXI for 360 I believe is the sole console that requires a sub in addition to the network fee (iirc) though PS2 and backwards compatible PS3 do not.Edited by BBSooner on February 2, 2015 8:10PM1 -
Dislike - otheranyone saying this poll is invalid because you have to pay to access it, doesn't understand the concept of corporate espionage.... the gaming industry is FAR more cut throat than it used to be in say, the NES days. everything is subject to a NDA in the company. i have been a paid tester, and i still can't talk about projects i worked on- some would be awesome to talk about, and some...... well, lets just say i was less than thrilled (gnashing teeth). also, this poll is more important than a mere open poll, this is the "investors" poll. if you *** off your investors and they pull financial support, you lose your company. the paying customer's opinion vastly out weighs the NON-paying customer's opinion, especially in this topic.
stop saying this poll is invalid and certainly stop saying this poll is based on a vocal minority. you need to focus on the answers it produced and not parse and split hairs to keep your perspective afloat. especially since its too late and there is nothing to actually debate about. if you are a f2p'er you win; if you are pro-sub you lose. i aint happy about it going to f2p, i will always have that stance, and i will tell ZoS they are idiots for it (for a multitude of reasons), and i will, with time, decide if/when i will pull my financial support.I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19183 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" abovefrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »That's how MMOs work. They start high at launch, then lose 80% of their players, then they improve and regain them back months after months by becoming worht their subs and more.
But for that to happen, the game has to actually improve.
I don't recall of succesful MMOs that went F2P after few months.
I don't recall of succesful MMOs that lost 80% of their player base in the first months.
I don't recall of MMOs that lost 80% of their players and then made it back up.
Some like GW2 started B2P, are succesfull but did not lose 80% of their players.
SWTOR is what comes closest to what you say, and it could do that only because Bioware and EA have so massively huge shoulders to be able and steer a failed AAA budget project into a decently succesful F2P game. Usually bad starting MMOs just drop to the dust, if they make to F2P they just slow down their fall.
You just didn't pay attention. It happenned to all of them because most MMO early adopters are just "3 monthers".
They buy games, rush it, then stop because they aren't interested in MMOs but are interested in novelty.
That's just the state of the industry nowadays and nothing to be alarmed about.
And switching to f2p is never going to stop the fall of a game, it's not the purpose of such switches. It actually accelerates the fall of an MMO, but at the same time provide a quick burst of cash.Alphashado wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »As for the polls accuracy: No poll in existance is 100% accurate.
Most are of 1000-2500 people to represent populations of millions.
That's good enough to get a good feeling of the general population and opinion trends. They don't need to be accurate.
What this poll here shows is the opinion of over 1000 people out of a population of a few hundred thousands. The sample is biased towards those that care enough about the game to have bought it and hang out on forums.
In short, this poll shows the opinion of those tgat matter for the long term survival of an mmo.
I don't doubt there may be 100ks people out there that want to see the game go b2p and millions that want it to be f2p, but their opinions don't matter.
Retention is more important than acquisition. Especially when dealing with fickle and greedy new players that just want to consume without giving back.
exactly. well put.
Yeah, I am sure that the opinion of a user base that was shrinking very fast is the best opinion to go with.
Most people (like you) assume that this B2P conversion was because the subscription wasn't bringing in enough revenue and the population was dwindling. It's only natural to think that way because every other MMO that dropped subscription did it for that reason.
HOWEVER. The gigantic difference between ESO and all those other games is that ESO is launching with console versions. That changes the scenario dramatically.
I've been playing this game since launch. I have seen the ebb and flow of the population. I recruit for a major trading guild. I have to recruit 5-10 people every day or so because we boot people after 10 days offline. Know what? That never changed. Never. It was a steady flow of 5-10 people leaving the game every single day from launch till right now. "Hah!" You say. "See! Look at all the people leaving in droves!"
Well here is the kicker. Every single day we are EASILY replacing those players with new players. Not once during the entire duration of this game since launch have we EVER struggled to replace those that left. There was in influx of new players every day that matched the numbers of those that left. After the CS was announced, the population actually increased drastically. Low level zones were overflowing with new players.
Then B2P was announced.
It wasn't because the population was low.
It was because ZoS couldn't come to a legal agreement with Xbox and PS in regards to charging a subscription for consoles.
So please stop with all the "the game was dying" nonsense. That may have applied to other MMOs, but the Console launch absolutely took a hot steaming dump on a loyal, robust subscription community. EVE and WoW are still going strong with a subscription and I am 100% positive that ESO could have as well if it weren't for consoles.
yet Final Fantasy 11 and 14, both on the consoles and have a subscription. So what does this game going to console have to do with anything? Obviously a subscription based game can be on the consoles.
Sony specifically waved the network connection fee for FFXIV, and 11 is on consoles that don't have network fees. However Microsoft was unwilling to wave the Xbox live fee (which is why Yoshida - Director of FFXIV - specifically said there would be no xbox one port, last I heard at least). A very likely B2P scenario is because Microsoft refused to wave the fee, and ZOS wanting to release to a console they had already developed a port to - made a decision.
Edit: I'll concede that FFXI for 360 I believe is the sole console that requires a sub in addition to the network fee (iirc) though PS2 and backwards compatible PS3 do not.
The consoles are a scapegoat, just as much as the "game was failing" is.
Console players interested in an MMO would already pay for the xbox live or psn subscriptions for other multiplayer games. They would just have to pay ESO's subscription to play, just like people on the PC.
They are liek every game in the world: ready to pay for quality.1 -
Lord DargothURSoul ShrivenLike - may draw in more population due to lack of monthly feesYep me too, it has been on the slow downfall for a while now. The B2P will do as you all have speculated we are not new to this, do not kid yourselves what the gut is telling you.I will join in the angry crowd, another torch please.0
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wraith808✭✭✭✭Dislike - fears of new content slowing downHoosierPappy wrote: »Wheres the "apprehensive" option? Im kinda in the wait and see mode, especially on the new subs. If the offerings for that are lame I will unsub, and perhaps even toss in the towel.
You really think this is a real, reasoned poll?
UPDATE: strange... it shows me as having voted when all I did was view results. Wasn't going to vote intentionally.Edited by wraith808 on February 4, 2015 5:57PMQuasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dislike - otherFun quote:
And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.1 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveFun quote:
And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.
Are we SURE "Jay Wilson" never worked for ZOS?
Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington0 -
IxeSoul ShrivenLike - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsI couldn't get any of my friends to join because of the monthly fee, and these aren't people who have little money, these are people who had all of their college paid for, have no debt, and are making roughly 90k per year not counting bonuses and benefits. As soon as the Buy to Play was announced almost all of them pre-ordered it or said they will buy it as soon as it is out. I bought a new subscription just because of this announcement.3
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JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dislike - otherI couldn't get any of my friends to join because of the monthly fee, and these aren't people who have little money, these are people who had all of their college paid for, have no debt, and are making roughly 90k per year not counting bonuses and benefits. As soon as the Buy to Play was announced almost all of them pre-ordered it or said they will buy it as soon as it is out. I bought a new subscription just because of this announcement.
Stop impersonating ZOS employee please.1 -
Athas24✭✭✭✭Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveI voted dislike although it's more of an unsure for me. I do however worry about the items listed in the dislike column more than I anticipate the items in the like column. I'm still subbed with a "wait and see" stance.0 -
Athas24✭✭✭✭Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveI couldn't get any of my friends to join because of the monthly fee, and these aren't people who have little money, these are people who had all of their college paid for, have no debt, and are making roughly 90k per year not counting bonuses and benefits. As soon as the Buy to Play was announced almost all of them pre-ordered it or said they will buy it as soon as it is out. I bought a new subscription just because of this announcement.
your friends sound like a bunch of tightwads. Either that or they don't care to game much and would rather spend time on their boats and motorcycles. .. or maybe in the adult entertainment clubs lol
2 -
serenity_painted✭✭✭Like - otherOh it's going B2P? Good, took them long enough. This along with the justice system i might bother acually playing the damn game.0 -
Iorail✭✭✭✭Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveWell, I said it before and I will say it again, this is the end for my sub and will not come back. B2P/F2P, never, they can take it and put it way in there....2 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There was no neutral choice .... I'm cautiously wary.
The only experience with free to play and an online store was Mafia Wars on Facebook (for a while the only reason I logged into facebook).
I went in from the start knowing I wasn't willing to spend money on it; and that meant that I was limited in what I could do. Some folks got really sucked into the whole "bit at a time" thing, and ended up spending way more than they intended or realized. Led to a lot of frustration.
This game, I went in with the "I'll pay for a subscription", really disliking the lack of "a disk" (and manual) for an ES game. Changing it mid-stream?.... I don't know.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭Dislike - fears of cash shop roadblocks on contentI couldn't get any of my friends to join because of the monthly fee, and these aren't people who have little money, these are people who had all of their college paid for, have no debt, and are making roughly 90k per year not counting bonuses and benefits. As soon as the Buy to Play was announced almost all of them pre-ordered it or said they will buy it as soon as it is out. I bought a new subscription just because of this announcement.
That's nice. It points to a positive effect of ESO going B2P. More players.
But, how long will they play it?0 -
stylepolice✭✭✭Like - otherP2W would be a strong dislike, but this change for me just means I am gonna save 15$ a month. otoh I only pvp.
Sidenote: I refuse to be forced into pve so i can stay competitive in pvp. This was what killed a lot of DAoC population way back when they introduced ToA and when I see some of the pve-bind-on-pick-up rewards I am getting suspicious.0 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsElitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.Edited by EölMPK on February 6, 2015 1:12PMEöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."0 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" aboveElitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.2 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsfrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.Edited by EölMPK on February 6, 2015 3:35PMEöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."1 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" abovefrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.0 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsfrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.Edited by EölMPK on February 6, 2015 4:07PMEöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."0 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" abovefrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.3 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsfrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.
Cant agree with that too.
If the game is freaking good, it will make success regardless of business model.
Imho, if ESO manage to keep b2p like gw2, without greedy things on the cash shop, and at the same time being able to keep their subs happy, we will see it grow a lot.
Eöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.Edited by Jeremy on February 6, 2015 4:50PM1 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" abovefrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.
Cant agree with that too.
If the game is freaking good, it will make success regardless of business model.
Imho, if ESO manage to keep b2p like gw2, without greedy things on the cash shop, and at the same time being able to keep their subs happy, we will see it grow a lot.
You keep on refering to GW2, which is not a bad game, yet they are not managing to grow in revenue. There are no examples of cash shop oriented games growing in revenue and ESO won't be the exception.
Following the GW2 formula would just mean to lose revenue just as fast.
Other games can lose less fast by going p2w though, which is sort of mandatory after some point or the devs don't get paid.1 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsHortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.
After going F2P, lotro released Moria, Lothlorien, Isengard, Rohan... you could not like it, but it was great for me, and too many others I know.
And ESO is not going F2P, it's B2P. Different things, regardless you think they are not.
There are good f2p/b2p games out there. Marvel Heroes, Archeage, Rift, GW2, Path of Exile, Diablo 3, Everquest 2 are examples. The fact that you dont like them, doesnt make them suck, just show that the problem is at your side.
My god, people are so used of being sucked (sub fee), that the fact that they dont need to keep paying that make them forget that they need to spend 60 bucks in the game.
Its almost masochistic oOEdited by EölMPK on February 6, 2015 5:05PMEöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."2 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsfrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.
Cant agree with that too.
If the game is freaking good, it will make success regardless of business model.
Imho, if ESO manage to keep b2p like gw2, without greedy things on the cash shop, and at the same time being able to keep their subs happy, we will see it grow a lot.
You keep on refering to GW2, which is not a bad game, yet they are not managing to grow in revenue. There are no examples of cash shop oriented games growing in revenue and ESO won't be the exception.
Following the GW2 formula would just mean to lose revenue just as fast.
Other games can lose less fast by going p2w though, which is sort of mandatory after some point or the devs don't get paid.
By your logic, the only game doing fine is WoW. I guess we are screwed than
But the important is, even if ESO doesnt explode in dollars after being B2P, the important thing is that it needs to be better than its now with subs.
And subs will die, this is a fact. People day by day dont want to pay subs anymore, cause people dont want to play the same game for lots of years like in the old days.
Eöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.
After going F2P, lotro released Moria, Lothlorien, Rohan... you could not like it, but it was great for me, and too many others I know.
And ESO is not going F2P, it's B2P. Different things, regardless you think they are not.
My god, people are so used of being sucked (sub fee), that the fact that they dont need to keep paying that make them forget that they need to spend 60 bucks in the game.
Its almost masochistic oO
I said I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. I never said F2P and B2P was the same thing. So not sure what you are on about there.
I'm glad you enjoyed the new content in LOTRO but I sure didn't. It sucked compared to the Shadows of Angmar days when the quality and detail of the content was amazing. It was also supplemented by an excellent combat system that actually required intelligent and thought-provoking gameplay.
Now it's devolved into a simplistic button-mashing chore that a 2 year old could play by banging his hands on the keyboard. It's not even remotely the same game it was - and might as well be compared to a coloring book for toddlers.
And I'm not masochistic. I just rather pay a subscription to play an interesting game instead of not pay one to play a uninteresting game.
If the quality of gameplay in ESO improves as a result of it dropping subscriptions I'll be pleasantly surprised. But that's a big IF considering my past experiences.Edited by Jeremy on February 6, 2015 5:32PM0 -
Dislike - all of the "dislikes" abovefrosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Elitism is strong here...
People seem to never heard about gw2.
B2P is totally fine.
http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-third-quarter-finances/
GW2 has called, it's not doing fine.
If not doing fine means being out there since 2012 with lots of players, and releasing a real expansion after lots of new content by patchs earlier, I'm ok with that.
GW2 will be there for many years if it stays not doing fine this way.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/announcing-the-first-guildwars2-expansion/
Can't see a company spending money with a game that gives no revenue.
It's not doing fine revenue wise, mainly because cash shops are not sustainable.
We have no idea how many active players they have as they don't release those numbers, but it probably got lower too.
They are just reverting to their old business model of releasing expansions.
They pretty much "invented" that model with Guild Wars 1, the only MMO I know to work that way, and it works well for them.
I don't have the links anymore, but there were two contradicting articles before the expansion anouncement. One of ArenaNet saying "we have no plans for an expansion", and one week later, one from NCsoft saying "yes they do".
I guess they got put back in their place by their higher ups.
GW2 is doing better than all f2p/b2p games, and better than some subscription based games, but it is not doing fine.
Thats because things are not being good in the world ($$$).
World's economy reflects mainly at hobbies (and things that are not essential to live), and mmo's are one of them.
There is something interesting in the chart you posted too, see Wildstar (sub) is not "doing good" too.
Never said subscription is a guaranteed success. Bad games die, as they should.
But subscription is the only model that allows for success.
Cant agree with that too.
If the game is freaking good, it will make success regardless of business model.
Imho, if ESO manage to keep b2p like gw2, without greedy things on the cash shop, and at the same time being able to keep their subs happy, we will see it grow a lot.
You keep on refering to GW2, which is not a bad game, yet they are not managing to grow in revenue. There are no examples of cash shop oriented games growing in revenue and ESO won't be the exception.
Following the GW2 formula would just mean to lose revenue just as fast.
Other games can lose less fast by going p2w though, which is sort of mandatory after some point or the devs don't get paid.
By your logic, the only game doing fine is WoW. I guess we are screwed than
But the important is, even if ESO doesnt explode in dollars after being B2P, the important thing is that it needs to be better than its now with subs.
And subs will die, this is a fact. People day by day dont want to pay subs anymore, cause people dont want to play the same game for lots of years like in the old days.
Eve Online, FFXIV, Lineage, and others I'm unaware of.
Even UO still pulled not too long ago 90k subscription, that's as much revenue than the entire Funcom games group.
People never wanted to pay for susbcriptions. People never wanted to play games for years. The MMO market has always been a niche compared to the rest of the gaming world. That doesn't mean that the susbcription model is on its way out, it just means that companies are currently trying to address MMOs to non MMO players, and they are all failing.
But that kind of model actually drive away the actual core audience of MMOs and the non mmo players are naturally less commited, so f2p/b2p games are bound to fail.0 -
EölMPK✭✭✭Like - may be positive like LoL's cash shop, with only vanity itemsHortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.Hortator Mopa wrote: »67% Don't like it.
29% Like it.
Yep they are "Doing it because the fans asked for it".
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Because a forum poll on a forum that you have to pay to get into is all that reliable? Umm, no.
Exactly what I was going to say!!!
The fans consist of the people who are in this forum, People who payed once to play oblivion and skyrim, and people who play other MMOs
So even if it was 100% yes, that's like 2/3 or more people who are unaccounted for.
You both pretending to be potato? or are you actually potato?
How do you think they will get money from people who dont pay sub to continue running when it goes b2p.If they dont want to pay a small $15 to play a month, then why would they pay money at all in the crown store lol.
Is logic hard or something?
<Looks at the hundreds of MMOs with no subscription> The one lacking in logic is yourself.
And they all suck.
I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. LOTRO is a good example. I used to love that game. Then it went F2P and the quality of the game went into a free fall.
I hope ESO is exception. But I doubt it.
After going F2P, lotro released Moria, Lothlorien, Rohan... you could not like it, but it was great for me, and too many others I know.
And ESO is not going F2P, it's B2P. Different things, regardless you think they are not.
My god, people are so used of being sucked (sub fee), that the fact that they dont need to keep paying that make them forget that they need to spend 60 bucks in the game.
Its almost masochistic oO
I said I've never seen a game improve after dropping subscriptions. I never said F2P and B2P was the same thing. So not sure what you are on about there.
I'm glad you enjoyed the new content in LOTRO but I sure didn't. It sucked compared to the Shadows of Angmar days when the quality and detail of the content was amazing. It was also supplemented by an excellent combat system that actually required intelligent and thought-provoking gameplay.
Now it's devolved into a simplistic button-mashing chore that a 2 year old could play by banging his hands on the keyboard. It's not even remotely the same game it was - and might as well be compared to a coloring book for toddlers.
And I'm not masochistic. I just rather pay a subscription to play an interesting game instead of not pay one to play a uninteresting game.
If the quality of gameplay in ESO improves as a result of it dropping subscriptions I'll be pleasantly surprised. But that's a big IF considering my past experiences.
The changes in LOTRO gameplay is not because of f2p, is a devs decision, this will happen even if they kept subs, unfortunatelly.
We really hope that ESO improves too, everyone that likes ESO trully wants this. Let's hope that you got surprised
Eöl[MPK]
PS4
Grungebr - Altmer magicka templar
Eölbr - Dunmer magicka necro
Drizztbr - Khajiit stamina nb"In my thoughts and in my dreams, they're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits, dwarves and men, and elves
Come close your eyes, you can see them too..."0
