State of the Game -- A Former PVP Guild Lead's Commentary

xylena

Grim13 wrote: »

I agree, Sunshine... Purge is far too powerful. It's one of the cornerstones of the Zergball craze. If it didn't negate siege we'd start to have a valuable tool to combat Zergs with.

lol yep i've really enjoyed being able to counter the heal/purge blobs that try to flip flags without killing anyone, even if it's an unintended (?) bug... part of me wishes siege was un-purgeable so countering it would force the enemy to engage in a fight by shooting/burning siege engines themselves or murdering the operator(s)

Sypher

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Will we be able to bash/interrupt heavy attacks in 1.6?!?! I don't care about anything else.

Xsorus

Well some of the zerg ball problems is the fact that ZOS made Oil Catapults snare able to be purge...For a while Zerg Balls weren't effective unless capping towers because if you were moving and got hit by that Oil Catapult while stacked you were pretty much toast as every other siege had zero issue hitting you.

Spangla

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

Xsorus

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

Tankqull

Sypher wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Will we be able to bash/interrupt heavy attacks in 1.6?!?! I don't care about anything else.

why should they change that? beside haven´t seen a hint in that direction anyway - may you link some statement in regarding that?

Xsorus

Tankqull wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Will we be able to bash/interrupt heavy attacks in 1.6?!?! I don't care about anything else.

why should they change that? beside haven´t seen a hint in that direction anyway - may you link some statement in regarding that?

Because its resulted in some really bad 1v1 fights.

Domander

Rylana wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

The moment 1.6 hits I am going to my closet, getting out the roll of duct tape, cutting off a small square, and taping my right mouse button down permanently.

You're gonna have a hard time generating ultimate if you do that...

Ill just bash everything to death, old school. Im literally at the point of just building a supertank and calling it good. Screw trying to do damage to anyone anymore.

All you need is a taunt that works in pvp.. that would be interesting.

That projectile sucker is close though...

miahq

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Domander

Darlgon wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Do you believe 1 man on a siege weapon should be killing a group of organized players running specific counters to protect themselves from such? Because I sure as hell don't.

Perhaps you should go back & re-read @Tripwyr's comment where he said, "a single siege placed facing a flag is already devastating." That is what @Darlgon responded to.

Somewhere.. a LONG time ago, AvA was sold as.. our guards and ONE PLAYER can hold out an army for quite some time, until reinforcements arrive from across the map..Now, the only way that can happen is siege. Right now, one person is pretty much on their own, as the guards get mowed under in seconds.

I disagree, a fully leveled keep is pretty tough.

Huntler

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Because it is bad game design in a competetive game to have basically an insta kill outcome where the opposing side under reasonable circumstances (considering solid builds, scenario, etc.) has no chance of reverse kill/defending.

/Answered

Joy_Division

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

It's not that an insta-kill button is "illegitimate," it's just bad game design.

Darlgon

Domander wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Do you believe 1 man on a siege weapon should be killing a group of organized players running specific counters to protect themselves from such? Because I sure as hell don't.

Perhaps you should go back & re-read @Tripwyr's comment where he said, "a single siege placed facing a flag is already devastating." That is what @Darlgon responded to.

Somewhere.. a LONG time ago, AvA was sold as.. our guards and ONE PLAYER can hold out an army for quite some time, until reinforcements arrive from across the map..Now, the only way that can happen is siege. Right now, one person is pretty much on their own, as the guards get mowed under in seconds.

I disagree, a fully leveled keep is pretty tough.

Lol.. 8 people can take a keep in 2;30.

miahq

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Because it is bad game design in a competetive game to have basically an insta kill outcome where the opposing side under reasonable circumstances (considering solid builds, scenario, etc.) has no chance of reverse kill/defending.

/Answered

Actually that's opinion, and really carries no more weight than someone who believes that a stealthed critical attack should do a lot of damage. One isn't any more valid just because you agree with it. Nor does sarcasm really detract from the idea that if a character class designed around stealth attacks has to take 5-10 hits to kill anyone-- only the first of which will actually be stealthed-- that yes, it kind of makes the whole thing pointless. Especially because those builds tend to be glass cannons.

Nor do is see how being able to survive until you're personally satisfied you've had enough time to kill the other person is simply bad game design, mostly because by "solid build," I'm assuming you don't mean a solid tank with tons of armor, but just whatever build you're currently using.

So not answered.

liquid_wolf

I thank you for taking the time to write this, and though I don't agree with a lot of the balance issues you discuss, I can agree on the lag/performance issues.

I really do want much of this tackled as soon as possible.

Darlgon

Domander wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

The moment 1.6 hits I am going to my closet, getting out the roll of duct tape, cutting off a small square, and taping my right mouse button down permanently.

You're gonna have a hard time generating ultimate if you do that...

Ill just bash everything to death, old school. Im literally at the point of just building a supertank and calling it good. Screw trying to do damage to anyone anymore.

All you need is a taunt that works in pvp.. that would be interesting.

That projectile sucker is close though...

Taunt that works in AVA... Thats something I have thought of before, alot in other games... but.. ultimately, to a force a player to attack me is not really right, as the other player has a choice to attack or not. Taunts should stay in PVE world.

Huntler

miahq wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Because it is bad game design in a competetive game to have basically an insta kill outcome where the opposing side under reasonable circumstances (considering solid builds, scenario, etc.) has no chance of reverse kill/defending.

/Answered

Actually that's opinion, and really carries no more weight than someone who believes that a stealthed critical attack should do a lot of damage. One isn't any more valid just because you agree with it. Nor does sarcasm really detract from the idea that if a character class designed around stealth attacks has to take 5-10 hits to kill anyone-- only the first of which will actually be stealthed-- that yes, it kind of makes the whole thing pointless. Especially because those builds tend to be glass cannons.

Nor do is see how being able to survive until you're personally satisfied you've had enough time to kill the other person is simply bad game design, mostly because by "solid build," I'm assuming you don't mean a solid tank with tons of armor, but just whatever build you're currently using.

So not answered.

No its not opinion, its fact. A competetive game has to be fair, one character that can insta gib another in a fair circumstance is bad game design. Stealth characters have always been meant to have an advantage from stealth, not an IWIN scenario because you are stealthed, if you can't see why thats bad game design.... no one will convince you.


Regardless, if you think nightblades are a rogue class entirely and can only be successful from stealth..... then you have no idea how to play a nightblade.

Huntler

Darlgon wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

The moment 1.6 hits I am going to my closet, getting out the roll of duct tape, cutting off a small square, and taping my right mouse button down permanently.

You're gonna have a hard time generating ultimate if you do that...

Ill just bash everything to death, old school. Im literally at the point of just building a supertank and calling it good. Screw trying to do damage to anyone anymore.

All you need is a taunt that works in pvp.. that would be interesting.

That projectile sucker is close though...

Taunt that works in AVA... Thats something I have thought of before, alot in other games... but.. ultimately, to a force a player to attack me is not really right, as the other player has a choice to attack or not. Taunts should stay in PVE world.

In some games, I'm thinking WAR here, taunts/detaunts in PvP worked differently and wouldn't "force" the player, but it would debuff damage. For example, if a tank taunted an enemy player, that enemy play would do less damage to other players (but wouldn't be debuffed against the tank) same went for detaunt, if a player detaunted a certain player they would take less damage from that player (unless they attacked that player then it would dispel immediately).

I always liked this system, gave a very interesting/dynamic mechanic for tanks to play a very strong role as well as all players able to actively have a role in identifying the biggest threats and helping to deal with them.

Xexpo

Tripwyr wrote: »

...
Despite the widespread resentment, in my experience AD are the only faction that actually have support builds and team players instead of large groups of individuals. The number of selfish players on Blue and Red sides is astronomical.
...

hahaha "play like me or you're selfish" bwahahaha
In fairness, we wanted more pompous and self-righteous players but, AD took them all.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Well, my time in these forums grows very short. I may not even get a chance to reply much to this thread, so I'll post my thoughts about what I'll be looking for in 1.6 and what I feel currently needs to change.

I feel ESO had an amazing foundation to build off of. The core mechanics of how combat worked were amazing and felt so very fluid for an MMO.

Then the players got their hands on it, balance issues started to come to the forefront, and the devs started tinkering with the game engine itself. That's when it all went to Hell.

The number one concern that needs to be addressed for 1.6 is lag and client performance. This game runs poorly -- very poorly. It runs worse than it did in patches 1.1 and 1.2 with 1.3 being a major culprit in the downfall of the game's performance. We have been putting up with these issues for months and they have only ever gotten worse with the exception of a 1am emergency patch to 'mitigate' some of the FPS issues caused by the lighting patch.

If these latency issues are not fixed, there is nothing on this Earth that will allow this game to maintain any semblance of a healthy player base.

The second most important thing from a PVP perspective is balance issues. This game has some very, very, very bad class and skill balance issues. There are builds that simply obliterate their opposition, not just in skilled hands, but in any hands. There are certain armor and weapon types where everything else is simply subpar. This is simply unacceptable in a game where it was advertised 'play as you like'... so long as it wears Light Armor and has some form of staff as a weapon.

This has improved, mildly, to allow bow users to creep into the meta as a force in their own right. Ultimately, though, it's changed too slow and been the way it is for far too long.

The things I feel that need to be looked at most, in regards to game balance, are as follows:

1. Armor types and their effectiveness -- LA needs a durability nerf the size of Tamriel, HA needs love in a severe way.
2. Blockcasting -- This, combined with the LA sustainability/durability balance issues, is what leads to the 'Ubertank DK' that is so universally loathed. ZOS, you're smart, figure out a way around this mechanic.
3. Stamina vs Magicka AEs -- There is no good reason that Steel Tornado is blockable while Impulse/Blockade aren't. This alone prevents Stamina from standing in the same place damage-wise in group situations. The same with Brawler and other 2H area abilities. Either both stamina and magicka AEs should be blockable or neither should be. I lean towards both should be.
4. AE Damage Scaling -- AE abilities should never substitute for single target abilities for damage. There's zero reason that Impulse should even approach skills like Crushing Shock or Lava Whip for single target damage. AEs make their DPS back by hitting multiple targets (and then some) for their cost. I don't care one whit if this requires PvE re-balancing, it's an imbalance in the current system.
5. Block Cost in LA -- Take the block cost reduction from the 1h/Shield line and stack it into the HA line so that HA + Shield = 1.5 block cost, while LA + Shield = terrible blocking. This has impact on both points 1 and 2.
6. Stacking Ground Effects -- They're invisible half the time due to spell effect culling, they contribute hugely to the lag, and frankly are being used in silly ways (blockade of fire through the grate of an inner ring keep over front door anyone?). Make it so, universally, any ground effect erases the previous cast and replaces it -- much akin to how Cinder Storm or Caltrops work. It's time for things like this to start behaving in the same manner.
7. Siege Damage -- Siege Weapons need to hit players way, way harder than they do. It needs to be very dangerous to be within range of a siege line's artillery. As it currently is, it's easier than ever to mitigate and heal through siege damage, even when storming a breach. As long as you don't linger, you'll make it through fine, and it is players who are far more dangerous.
8. Keep Wall / Door HP and Siege Times -- It is way, way too fast to slam down an empty keep. Even at rank 5, with 245K walls and 195K doors, I've dropped an empty keep in 2:30 (two minutes, 30 seconds) from first siege dropped to flags flipped to Ebonheart. There's very little time to react to this, especially if it's an outlying keep like Drakelowe, Brindle, or Dragonclaw. I think it's time to up the HPs of keeps or reduce the damage siege does to them -- whichever is easier to code. More fights, more sieges, less ninja flipping.
9. The Nikel Corridor -- Make this a more interesting place to fight. Add some cottages, huts, a village or two (easily destroyed and forgotten by Oblivion's time period), anything to make it so that area is as lively as other areas of the map.
10. Buff Servers -- Kill buffs outside of the PVP zone. It's time for Buff servers to die the death they deserve.

And that's it. I'm sure there's stuff I've overlooked, but ultimately this is the primary list of issues that I've personally had issues with my time in game. Some of it's petty, some of it's universal. I don't know if I'll get to reply much to this thread going forward, but I will be reading it.

You'll see me around after 1.6 is live.

ZOS, hire this guy please.

eventide03b14a_ESO

thodoris1008 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

I 100% agree. Only the strongest shield should stay active even if multiple are cast. I wouldn't think that would be a very difficult thing to implement. Then again, I also didn't think a spell that causes invisibility would be a difficult thing either.

Darlgon

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

thodoris1008 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

I 100% agree. Only the strongest shield should stay active even if multiple are cast. I wouldn't think that would be a very difficult thing to implement. Then again, I also didn't think a spell that causes invisibility would be a difficult thing either.

Umm.. you guys DO know that ZoS already said shield stacking would be gone with update 1.6? It would fall under the "only one major/minor buff per type" that was already announced...

AbraXuSeXile

If history is anything to go by. Brace yourselves for 1.6

eventide03b14a_ESO

Darlgon wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

thodoris1008 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

I 100% agree. Only the strongest shield should stay active even if multiple are cast. I wouldn't think that would be a very difficult thing to implement. Then again, I also didn't think a spell that causes invisibility would be a difficult thing either.

Umm.. you guys DO know that ZoS already said shield stacking would be gone with update 1.6? It would fall under the "only one major/minor buff per type" that was already announced...

Umm...That doesn't mean I can't agree with the guy.

thodoris1008

Darlgon wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

thodoris1008 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

I 100% agree. Only the strongest shield should stay active even if multiple are cast. I wouldn't think that would be a very difficult thing to implement. Then again, I also didn't think a spell that causes invisibility would be a difficult thing either.

Umm.. you guys DO know that ZoS already said shield stacking would be gone with update 1.6? It would fall under the "only one major/minor buff per type" that was already announced...

Honestly i didn't know about that.If that's the case,then thanks for letting me know.

ToRelax

Darlgon wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

thodoris1008 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you OP,you certainly know what are you talking about.However,I would like to add something that I feel is missing from your post.That is the removal of shield stacking.I personally believe that effectively doubling your HP with damage shields in a game that has no cooldowns and pretty much no cost for doing so (thanks to the warlock/seducer combo) is just too much.From what I have noticed there are a lot of people that think this is ok,however from my perspective it's as bad as blockcasting for the overall game balance.

I 100% agree. Only the strongest shield should stay active even if multiple are cast. I wouldn't think that would be a very difficult thing to implement. Then again, I also didn't think a spell that causes invisibility would be a difficult thing either.

Umm.. you guys DO know that ZoS already said shield stacking would be gone with update 1.6? It would fall under the "only one major/minor buff per type" that was already announced...

Do you have a link or something, last thing I knew was that especially shields are not part of the major/minor buff system.


Edit:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're gathering a few more questions from this thread to get answers and/or clarification on. In the meantime, know we are still keeping an eye on it.

In that case I'd just like to make sure my first question was not overseen

ToRelax wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

3. Stamina vs Magicka AEs -- There is no good reason that Steel Tornado is blockable while Impulse/Blockade aren't. This alone prevents Stamina from standing in the same place damage-wise in group situations. The same with Brawler and other 2H area abilities. Either both stamina and magicka AEs should be blockable or neither should be. I lean towards both should be.

In Update 6, we're making magicka-based area-of-effect abilities blockable.

Does this also effect the new Magicka Bomb skill?

In that case the skill would seem pretty useless to me from what I know yet, as it has a cast time. That would be a risk without reward if the skill is blocked.

miahq

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Because it is bad game design in a competetive game to have basically an insta kill outcome where the opposing side under reasonable circumstances (considering solid builds, scenario, etc.) has no chance of reverse kill/defending.

/Answered

Actually that's opinion, and really carries no more weight than someone who believes that a stealthed critical attack should do a lot of damage. One isn't any more valid just because you agree with it. Nor does sarcasm really detract from the idea that if a character class designed around stealth attacks has to take 5-10 hits to kill anyone-- only the first of which will actually be stealthed-- that yes, it kind of makes the whole thing pointless. Especially because those builds tend to be glass cannons.

Nor do is see how being able to survive until you're personally satisfied you've had enough time to kill the other person is simply bad game design, mostly because by "solid build," I'm assuming you don't mean a solid tank with tons of armor, but just whatever build you're currently using.

So not answered.

No its not opinion, its fact. A competetive game has to be fair, one character that can insta gib another in a fair circumstance is bad game design. Stealth characters have always been meant to have an advantage from stealth, not an IWIN scenario because you are stealthed, if you can't see why thats bad game design.... no one will convince you.


Regardless, if you think nightblades are a rogue class entirely and can only be successful from stealth..... then you have no idea how to play a nightblade.

Just because not all of their skills are pure rogue doesn't mean that's not where many of them are oriented towards. And many of their skills are oriented towards it, between stealth skills and skills that boost damage while stealthed or from crits (which are usually from stealthed attacks). So yeah, there are other ways to play a NB, that doesn't change the fact the class is pretty obviously tilted towards rogue.

And as far as your comment, "if you can't see why thats bad game design.... no one will convince you," those kinds of arguments are usually just a cop out for not having an argument. No ones talking about some roving death machine here. You're talking about a build that can maybe snag one out of a group before they've to run. Maybe they can get two. And there are plenty of ways to counter those players as well, the usually response is just, 'why should I have to change my build to defend against someone else's? That's not fair!'

Regardless, just insisting something is a fact isn't going to change reality. What makes good game design often comes down to personal preference and opinion. And even if it's the majority opinion that X is bad design, that still doesn't magically make it fact. It's still just an opinion.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

We're gathering a few more questions from this thread to get answers and/or clarification on. In the meantime, know we are still keeping an eye on it.

frozywozy

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Eglath wrote: »

Unfortunately right now, if you don't block or have 1k shield on you, you are dead in no time. Players shouldn't be able to kill each other in 3sec, we need more passive dmg mitigation.
Yes I agree with blocking being nice way, but it's only way atm. As a sorc I have 1 unblockable skill, curse, and very often it's only skill that's actually doing dmg against perma-blockers. So what you've said is correct, it is a problem. And therefore ZOS needs to adress it and give us more survivability outisde of block, especially for ppl without S&B.

Yes they should be able to kill quickly - otherwise remove nb skill tree assasnation and rename it pointless.... like the class

I've always loved this type of mindset that "rogue" players have that they should be able to instant kill people in a video game because reasons.

And I always loved the mindset of people who complain like hell that it's not fair they can be insta killed by something until it's taken away or nerfed. Because reasons, I guess. Apparently only one of those is a legitimate view point, though.

Because it is bad game design in a competetive game to have basically an insta kill outcome where the opposing side under reasonable circumstances (considering solid builds, scenario, etc.) has no chance of reverse kill/defending.

/Answered

Actually that's opinion, and really carries no more weight than someone who believes that a stealthed critical attack should do a lot of damage. One isn't any more valid just because you agree with it. Nor does sarcasm really detract from the idea that if a character class designed around stealth attacks has to take 5-10 hits to kill anyone-- only the first of which will actually be stealthed-- that yes, it kind of makes the whole thing pointless. Especially because those builds tend to be glass cannons.

Nor do is see how being able to survive until you're personally satisfied you've had enough time to kill the other person is simply bad game design, mostly because by "solid build," I'm assuming you don't mean a solid tank with tons of armor, but just whatever build you're currently using.

So not answered.

No its not opinion, its fact. A competetive game has to be fair, one character that can insta gib another in a fair circumstance is bad game design. Stealth characters have always been meant to have an advantage from stealth, not an IWIN scenario because you are stealthed, if you can't see why thats bad game design.... no one will convince you.


Regardless, if you think nightblades are a rogue class entirely and can only be successful from stealth..... then you have no idea how to play a nightblade.

Not to forget that in WoW, a rogue has a cooldown to Vanish and he has to be VERY wise about using it at the right moment.

In this game, you can stealth as much as you can and you can also roll before or teleport to your image to help you out about not getting reveal instantly by aoe damage.

This being said, nightblades has a huge advantage in this game compared to other mmos regarding survivability. I don't think their damage should ALSO be better so they can insta-kill someone.

david.haypreub18_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're gathering a few more questions from this thread to get answers and/or clarification on. In the meantime, know we are still keeping an eye on it.

Good to know. I'd like to know, if all Magicka-based AoEs will be blockable, if the Nightblade's Aspect of Terror will be blockable. Because if so, block casting is just going to be getting better and better in 1.6.