Snipe and it's implication on PvP, from a long time Bow user

Cathexis

I hate the snipe changes as well, although I don't think using snipe now makes you a noob. I think the snipe changes have just made a lot of builds significantly less useful. I know the only reason I use snipe now is because mass snipe spam has made swordboard/resto staff in zergs useless. Survival in combat has just shifted to extreme long range now with the exception of a few tank builds, which if you think about it, is a logical shift for buffing snipe.

The problem I think, is that there are bigger implications about what this means about build versatility across all classes. For example, my viability as a sorc zerg tank went from pretty good to absolutely impossible in one patch. Why can't I tank as a sorc if I want to in pvp? Why is tanking only relegated to the heavy classes?

Jahosefat

I'm fine with them leaving the damage and cast time as it sits currently IF they add a thick green stink cloud (easily visible) that trails the projectile making the caster location more obvious.

Bow needed a buff, and I don't personally have trouble with snipers but I think it is probably steering many new players away from PVP (which I think is bad). Anecdotally I know of three new players who gave PVP a shot for a few days this past week but thought it was no fun because they just kept dying from snipe spam. It's just not fun to be blown up by someone you never saw. Add a cloud of some-sort that follows the projectile, more obviously revealing the location of the sniper and the dps/cast time would not be that OP.

Valymer

My friend crits 1600 with bow heavy attack, is Snipe actually overrated?

OK, heavy attack is 1.5 s cast time, but still. It actually returns stamina and frees up a skill slot on your bar.

Jahosefat

Valymer wrote: »

My friend crits 1600 with bow heavy attack, is Snipe actually overrated?

OK, heavy attack is 1.5 s cast time, but still. It actually returns stamina and frees up a skill slot on your bar.

I think it is the healing debuff from snipe stacking twice that is the biggest problem ATM. And this occurs when snipe is being spammed on a target.

Thechemicals

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

3 Dk's can capture a keep as well. So can 2 Dk's and 1 Templar. 1 Dk can already capture a resource by himself. Again, the point is just bad.

Are you trolling or just not realizing that this thread is about Snipe, from the weapon skill line called Bow. It's not about classes.

Your point is indeed just that, bad.

No i am not trolling. The op made the same point that he can take a keep on pts with 2 snipers+ a healer. So what is he saying? That 2 snipers and a healer are overpowered? I was making a point about it by being satirical. Again, his keep capturing point is terrible.

The real issue that keeps going over some peoples heads is that snipe is a choice weapon and a popular one becuase forward camps dont exist anymore and having 38+ meter range to keep you in the fight is better than actually being in the melee and possibly dying to a zerg ball. Snipe was popular before but now its a necessity for survivability....not some silly Op damage and min range. It seems op because the battles are delicate now and death is really not an option anymore.

If you cant see that then you cant grasp the underlying problem. I dont want forward camps back but say they did....you honestly believe everyone is going to be playing range wars if they can respawn where they died? Itll all return to people charging into groups with bolt escapes, batswarms, blockspam dk standards, and undying impulse groups. Save your breath about snipe and go moan about death penalties. This isnt the angle you want and this is a much needed addition to the weapons that arent destro and resto....something everyone seems to ignore, are still the most used weapon in cyrodiil.

Cathexis

Thechemicals wrote: »

The real issue that keeps going over some peoples heads is that snipe is a choice weapon and a popular one becuase forward camps dont exist anymore and having 38+ meter range to keep you in the fight is better than actually being in the melee and possibly dying to a zerg ball.

...


Snipe still does, however, have a lot of issues, namely that it does an absurd amount of damage and severely gimps healing. The problem with the rest of your argument @thechemicals is that now instead of melee zergs you have ultra long range zergs that do stupid amounts of damage from stealth and don't need to be concentrated into one area.

Essentially it is a sideways shift in combat tactics, and all it has done is render good close range survival builds useless. I agree with you that the non destro/resto builds need to be buffed up, but the issue with snipe is that it was buffed up so far that it is, as you said, a choice build. So much so, that most players are forced to go bow on one switch, and that takes away from the diversity and openness of gameplay builds.

Suru

I just want that 20m deadzone, or a higher one than the one in place now. Point Blank snipes shouldnt happen and have a ton of damage still packed. At least let my character actually seem stunned than just standing there for a few seconds. Some reason i cannot always CC break it.

Cathexis

20m deadzone is too high.
(1) It needs a severe damage nerf (full armor resto staff orc full health build in epic gear should not be able to be two shot before you can make a move)
(2) It needs like a 5m minimum, similar to the charge abilities.
(3) Siege bubbles in the support line need a serious mana cost decrease. That s*** needs to be popping all the time.

Thechemicals

Cathexis wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

The real issue that keeps going over some peoples heads is that snipe is a choice weapon and a popular one becuase forward camps dont exist anymore and having 38+ meter range to keep you in the fight is better than actually being in the melee and possibly dying to a zerg ball.

...


Snipe still does, however, have a lot of issues, namely that it does an absurd amount of damage and severely gimps healing. The problem with the rest of your argument @thechemicals is that now instead of melee zergs you have ultra long range zergs that do stupid amounts of damage from stealth and don't need to be concentrated into one area.

Essentially it is a sideways shift in combat tactics, and all it has done is render good close range survival builds useless. I agree with you that the non destro/resto builds need to be buffed up, but the issue with snipe is that it was buffed up so far that it is, as you said, a choice build. So much so, that most players are forced to go bow on one switch, and that takes away from the diversity and openness of gameplay builds.

Im here to help before crying nerf. Heres my guide thread to sniping and ganking prevention/mitigation/avoidance.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/139866/tiny-guide-to-reducing-snipe-and-gank-damage-and-all-damage-in-cyrodiil#latest

Also have other guides to other moans like
1. List of spells Reflective scales cant reflect
2. Templar guides and builds
3. etc. etc.

Im here to help....nerfing should be a final option and its a bit too early for screaming for a nerf hammer.

Cathexis

@thechemicals that's a great resource for beating snipe. But there are a lot of issues with them. Most of those options put you at disadvantage in a fight because they consume resources.

Typically if I have to resort to blocks/dodges/potions/purges they cost resources, and as a result are used for evacuation and survival. I almost never go into a fight after a defensive counter unless my side has the advantage, because if it comes down to player resource vs resource you are at a disadvantage and will lose the fight. This doesn't work well against snipe because you are always getting bombed from 35m+ away, so you are always being either forced into or out of combat (in that you either have to run immediately upon engaging or go all in because odds are you wont make it out).

Also, any build that relies on gear or potions costs money/ap and not all players have access to an endless supply. Essential combat mechanics shouldn't hinge on fiscal cost to the player.

Furthermore, radiant magelight is only good for stealth sweeps or accidental finds, and if you aren't a dragon knight, scales isn't an option.

Bolt escape is not a viable option for all mages, especially since stamina builds have become the combat standard. Stamina and health mages can't just port away infinitely.

I already use a lot of your options, and yes they work. They are really good suggestions. But at the same time, even exploiting all those tactics snipe is still competitive. I don't want to nerf snipe either, although I do think that at the very least

(a) it needs a minimum range of like 5m, or have descending damage as range decreases (this makes sense, it does more damage than either charge and has a morph that causes healing redux).
(b) the mana cost of siege bubbles needs to come down to 1/3 of its current cost.

JamilaRaj

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Other then the stacking healing debuff I honestly don't see how you guys are having so much issue with lethal arrow. I can get comparable damage to it on non sneak attacks by spamming poison injection plus light attack. If anything the patch has removed my ability to open with 1.7k lethal arrow crits plus heavy/pi/light attack combo that instant killed most people. Against other archers I simply wreck them left and right

Aside from stacking debuff, damage at that range presents an issue, because with many other skills, one has to go much closer or outright at point blank range, to deliver less, exposing himself to more possible attackers.

Cathexis

@xsorusb14 Getting similar damage isn't the problem its as @JamilaRaj says, close range is more hazardous, has lower potential damage, and offers little or no tactical advantage.

MiyaTheUnbroken

Suru wrote: »

I just want that 20m deadzone, or a higher one than the one in place now. Point Blank snipes shouldnt happen and have a ton of damage still packed. At least let my character actually seem stunned than just standing there for a few seconds. Some reason i cannot always CC break it.

That is absolutely a terrible idea. A 20 meter deadzone would make snipe extremely situational in PvE, almost to the point of being useless. It would definitely be useless in dungeons and caves since it'd be nearly impossible to snipe anyone.

Deadzone should be 6 meters.

eliisra

Cathexis wrote: »

This doesn't work well against snipe because you are always getting bombed from 35m+ away, so you are always being either forced into or out of combat (in that you either have to run immediately upon engaging or go all in because odds are you wont make it out).

My Snipe has 48+ meters range in PvP. Not using the pact set, but I'm guessing that would push it to 51 meters (unless there's a cap I never heard of).

It's a bit problematic considering your average gap closer is 24-27+ meters. You need to locate where the arrows are coming from, than cover a lot of ground. Eat loads of dmg and spam purge for the 0% healing, before close enough to actually touch the spammer. If it's more than 2 snipers, you pretty much need to play DK and have scales. No other class has tools to deal with it.

Mele's gets screwed patch after patch. Screwed by Immortal vampires stacking x5 swarms early days of ESO, screwed by monkey Impulse blobs for months, screwed again by max ranged huntard combat. If it's not sticks, it's snipes.

Tintinabula

sure Ill snipe someone standing next to me..if they've thrown up a negate bubble preventing me from CHANGING WEAPONS!!!

Davadin

TL;DR = Crystal Shard and Snipe are dominating EVERYTHING in PvP. They are inbalanced. Nerf both.


(buff melee skills).


Thank you.

(specially 2H, where unlike DW, we only get 1 bonus from 1 weapon...)

Thejollygreenone

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

one problem i have is the point blank spam. due to the low cost time, interrupting snipe with venom arrow/bash is almost impossible, and people can spam it at point blank without any kind of strategic thought.

the only thing i want changed is the cast time. NOT back to 3 seconds. heck no. That will make the ability completly useless. Nor back to 2 seconds. a 1.5-1.8 second cast time will suit it just fine, while still forcing the user to have to plan instead of spam.

If it's being spammed all you have to do is throw multiple interrupts out and one of them will go through. If melee and simply using bash, that's not very expensive.

I just want to point out it's not everyone that is having trouble interrupting someone spamming Snipe. I for one get it done just fine.

EDIT: Granted, I am speaking from experience in 1v1 situations, not large group siege combat.
I mainly PvP via duels and the occasional getting caught/catching someone en route between keeps.

i have bashed several people using snipe and it fails to interrupt them 75% of the time. i have more luck with venom arrow, but even then it only works out half the time. and i dont have multiple interrupts. i have venom arrow, bash, and pure damage/ survivalbility abilties.

I meant multiple of the same interrupt, i.e. bash a few times in a row, which is really inexpensive. You have Venom Arrow you mentioned, if you light attack weave with Venom Arrow over and over (which the ability excels at) some interrupts are bound to land.

If interrupts are successfully going off, the sniper will be shut down if he's being stunned every 3 seconds from said interrupts. I don't feel the need to employ such repetitive tactics, normally one or two bashes gets the first stun off and is enough to turn the fight in my favor.

Although if people are having real trouble interrupting for whatever reason, spam right back at them, match Snipe spam with interrupt spam. However I do want to assert one more time that I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself here, just that if one person has no issues interrupting why should anyone else.

EDIT: There's a reason Wrecking Blow isn't used back to back in PvP, being in melee range and using a cast time is a huge defensive disadvantage with the susceptibility to really any form of hard cc, let alone the ever inexpensive interrupt function.

In theory, Interrupts seem like the natural counter to snipe spam. However, in practice, due to the constant lag (ZoS, you still need to improve your netcode you know) and the cornucopia of effects and abilites firing off in a siege environment, as well as the fact that Archers are normally standing behind a front line of close ranged fighters, often firing from a height advantage, makes interrupts often not possible.

Therefore, in such an environment, Snipe becomes extremely powerful and potent, further exacerbated by the sheer rate of fire at which it can be shot. Even if you manage to sneak up or somehow close the gap to the Archers, it's an almost certain thing that you will be shot multiple times by snipe, at melee range. I have seen with my own eyes Archers of all factions using Snipe at close melee range, often as the poor sod who has managed to get past the line of close ranged defenders to reach the Archer line get shot down by 4-5 Snipes which connected while he is using a gap closer.

You may argue that this is a siege, and this is a natural course of things. However, this "Snipe at point blank range and go trollolololol" phenomenon is applying to gankers as well. I know Nightblades who Snipes, then uses Ambush to get close, then snipes again at point blank to get the Ambush damage bonus, often killing the poor victim. Do you think this is honestly "right"?

The whole idea of the weapon feat "Snipe" is that a skilled marksman stops to carefully aim an arrow at a gap in the opponent's armor, thereby dealing massive damage with a single arrow. If I gave you a bow in a real life combat situation, would you have the presence of mind to take aim for 1.1 seconds to aim at a weak point in your opponent's armor, all the while being slashed/burnt/shocked/frozen/stabbed/crushed by your opponent in melee range? I highly doubt it.

EDIT: Apparently the word "[snip]" is censored, so I have replaced it with the less fanciful term "Gap"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I get your point, and acknowledge its importance in thread, however...

I did state a few posts earlier on that particular tangent of discussion that I was speaking from a 1v1 standpoint purely

I don't have the background knowledge to debate Snipe's role in siege combat, since I nearly never do it.

I just wanted to bring the other side of the story to the table, where if you're a snipe spammer trying to, for instance, do some dueling, you'll get wrecked. It's plain and simple a bad tactic in 1v1 and easily counterable.
(Unless of course you attack from stealth like in the separate scenario you mentioned, and the enemy is completely oblivious to your existence and/or experiencing the unbreakable cc bug. Otherwise I don't see the spamming of snipe as effective.)

Maybe not so much in large group content, as you discuss, but that wasn't my point

elausche_ESO

eliisra wrote: »

My Snipe has 48+ meters range in PvP. Not using the pact set, but I'm guessing that would push it to 51 meters (unless there's a cap I never heard of).

How?

Tintinabula

reflective shield plus other bonuses.
oh and always remember If I shoot "snipe" and THEN you run away or hide or bolt..you still get hit...but not if you dodge.

Cathexis

Tintinabula wrote: »

reflective shield plus other bonuses.
oh and always remember If I shoot "snipe" and THEN you run away or hide or bolt..you still get hit...but not if you dodge.

Whether or not you dodge before running away doesn't change the fact that its not a viable counter and if you mean reflective armor that's a class skill.

Tintinabula

no, they asked about range increase I was assuming..reflective shield which is a morph of siege shield adds a few meters to increased range.

Ive shot at many a sorc who bolt escaped out of range of snipe but because they didn't BE "before" I hit snipe..it still lands..even with them out of range.

DeanTheCat

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

one problem i have is the point blank spam. due to the low cost time, interrupting snipe with venom arrow/bash is almost impossible, and people can spam it at point blank without any kind of strategic thought.

the only thing i want changed is the cast time. NOT back to 3 seconds. heck no. That will make the ability completly useless. Nor back to 2 seconds. a 1.5-1.8 second cast time will suit it just fine, while still forcing the user to have to plan instead of spam.

If it's being spammed all you have to do is throw multiple interrupts out and one of them will go through. If melee and simply using bash, that's not very expensive.

I just want to point out it's not everyone that is having trouble interrupting someone spamming Snipe. I for one get it done just fine.

EDIT: Granted, I am speaking from experience in 1v1 situations, not large group siege combat.
I mainly PvP via duels and the occasional getting caught/catching someone en route between keeps.

i have bashed several people using snipe and it fails to interrupt them 75% of the time. i have more luck with venom arrow, but even then it only works out half the time. and i dont have multiple interrupts. i have venom arrow, bash, and pure damage/ survivalbility abilties.

I meant multiple of the same interrupt, i.e. bash a few times in a row, which is really inexpensive. You have Venom Arrow you mentioned, if you light attack weave with Venom Arrow over and over (which the ability excels at) some interrupts are bound to land.

If interrupts are successfully going off, the sniper will be shut down if he's being stunned every 3 seconds from said interrupts. I don't feel the need to employ such repetitive tactics, normally one or two bashes gets the first stun off and is enough to turn the fight in my favor.

Although if people are having real trouble interrupting for whatever reason, spam right back at them, match Snipe spam with interrupt spam. However I do want to assert one more time that I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself here, just that if one person has no issues interrupting why should anyone else.

EDIT: There's a reason Wrecking Blow isn't used back to back in PvP, being in melee range and using a cast time is a huge defensive disadvantage with the susceptibility to really any form of hard cc, let alone the ever inexpensive interrupt function.

In theory, Interrupts seem like the natural counter to snipe spam. However, in practice, due to the constant lag (ZoS, you still need to improve your netcode you know) and the cornucopia of effects and abilites firing off in a siege environment, as well as the fact that Archers are normally standing behind a front line of close ranged fighters, often firing from a height advantage, makes interrupts often not possible.

Therefore, in such an environment, Snipe becomes extremely powerful and potent, further exacerbated by the sheer rate of fire at which it can be shot. Even if you manage to sneak up or somehow close the gap to the Archers, it's an almost certain thing that you will be shot multiple times by snipe, at melee range. I have seen with my own eyes Archers of all factions using Snipe at close melee range, often as the poor sod who has managed to get past the line of close ranged defenders to reach the Archer line get shot down by 4-5 Snipes which connected while he is using a gap closer.

You may argue that this is a siege, and this is a natural course of things. However, this "Snipe at point blank range and go trollolololol" phenomenon is applying to gankers as well. I know Nightblades who Snipes, then uses Ambush to get close, then snipes again at point blank to get the Ambush damage bonus, often killing the poor victim. Do you think this is honestly "right"?

The whole idea of the weapon feat "Snipe" is that a skilled marksman stops to carefully aim an arrow at a gap in the opponent's armor, thereby dealing massive damage with a single arrow. If I gave you a bow in a real life combat situation, would you have the presence of mind to take aim for 1.1 seconds to aim at a weak point in your opponent's armor, all the while being slashed/burnt/shocked/frozen/stabbed/crushed by your opponent in melee range? I highly doubt it.

EDIT: Apparently the word "[snip]" is censored, so I have replaced it with the less fanciful term "Gap"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I get your point, and acknowledge its importance in thread, however...

I did state a few posts earlier on that particular tangent of discussion that I was speaking from a 1v1 standpoint purely

I don't have the background knowledge to debate Snipe's role in siege combat, since I nearly never do it.

I just wanted to bring the other side of the story to the table, where if you're a snipe spammer trying to, for instance, do some dueling, you'll get wrecked. It's plain and simple a bad tactic in 1v1 and easily counterable.
(Unless of course you attack from stealth like in the separate scenario you mentioned, and the enemy is completely oblivious to your existence and/or experiencing the unbreakable cc bug. Otherwise I don't see the spamming of snipe as effective.)

Maybe not so much in large group content, as you discuss, but that wasn't my point

If you want to mention Snipe in duels, try talking to Cpt-Capslock on the EU Megaserver. He manages to destroy some of the best players I know with Snipe in a duel setting. But yes, Cpt-Capslock is the minority, rather then the norm.

Still, it's worth noting that Zenimax seems to be balancing the game round large scale siege combat rather then small scale duels, hence I thought it more appropriate to take the stance of looking at it from a large scale point of view. I however, hold a lot of respect for honor dueling, and am myself a member of the EU cross-faction dueling guild "Arena".

No matter what, I would like to say that I respect and thank you for keeping a calm and civil discussion, unlike some posters in this thread who shall not be named.

Domander

Cathexis wrote: »

I hate the snipe changes as well, although I don't think using snipe now makes you a noob. I think the snipe changes have just made a lot of builds significantly less useful. I know the only reason I use snipe now is because mass snipe spam has made swordboard/resto staff in zergs useless. Survival in combat has just shifted to extreme long range now with the exception of a few tank builds, which if you think about it, is a logical shift for buffing snipe.

The problem I think, is that there are bigger implications about what this means about build versatility across all classes. For example, my viability as a sorc zerg tank went from pretty good to absolutely impossible in one patch. Why can't I tank as a sorc if I want to in pvp? Why is tanking only relegated to the heavy classes?

1h and shield is as useful in a "zerg" as it always has been, also blocking with a 1h and shield makes snipe damage laughable. (as it should, it is a shield after all)

This thread is so full of crap.

Valymer

Davadin wrote: »

TL;DR = Crystal Shard and Snipe are dominating EVERYTHING in PvP. They are inbalanced. Nerf both.


(buff melee skills).


Thank you.

(specially 2H, where unlike DW, we only get 1 bonus from 1 weapon...)

Haha, you must be joking.

Durham

I have to agree in pvp this is a huge issue now stacking healing debuff makes melee pointless.. I started using bow tonight i only have snipe at the moment but im hitting over 1k not in stealth ... I see healers flinging their arms and health not even moving... i see them purge only to fall 3 seconds later... i see melee based toon melt like butter when they charge in or just standing in front.... This combined with lag balling aoe spam is killing pvp ... 8/10 people are complaining constantly in mumble and zone chat leathal arrow is now always on death recaps... I died 12 times tonight it was on every single recap ..

I know pvp is a low priority in this games but i hope they fix it soon....

Durham

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Other then the stacking healing debuff I honestly don't see how you guys are having so much issue with lethal arrow. I can get comparable damage to it on non sneak attacks by spamming poison injection plus light attack. If anything the patch has removed my ability to open with 1.7k lethal arrow crits plus heavy/pi/light attack combo that instant killed most people. Against other archers I simply wreck them left and right

My problem is range damage vs melee that is out of whack... running bow vs twohander bow is killing it in dps ...

Xsorus

Durham wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Other then the stacking healing debuff I honestly don't see how you guys are having so much issue with lethal arrow. I can get comparable damage to it on non sneak attacks by spamming poison injection plus light attack. If anything the patch has removed my ability to open with 1.7k lethal arrow crits plus heavy/pi/light attack combo that instant killed most people. Against other archers I simply wreck them left and right

My problem is range damage vs melee that is out of whack... running bow vs twohander bow is killing it in dps ...

That depends, if you try and snipe me point blank I'm going to kill you every time. Now using magnum shot then doing critical Rush is actually a good combo right now. Either way I don't recall the last time I've lost to any archer in a 1v1, and this is playing a build right now that's designed around not blocking at all and instead spamming pierce armor (179 stamina regen) get me low and I'll give myself almost 2k in shielding. But yea the only time lethal arrow is dangerous is when you get knocked off your horse or if you are getting Zerged. If you are getting killed in a 1v1 right now by an archer its you, not the bow

Thejollygreenone

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

one problem i have is the point blank spam. due to the low cost time, interrupting snipe with venom arrow/bash is almost impossible, and people can spam it at point blank without any kind of strategic thought.

the only thing i want changed is the cast time. NOT back to 3 seconds. heck no. That will make the ability completly useless. Nor back to 2 seconds. a 1.5-1.8 second cast time will suit it just fine, while still forcing the user to have to plan instead of spam.

If it's being spammed all you have to do is throw multiple interrupts out and one of them will go through. If melee and simply using bash, that's not very expensive.

I just want to point out it's not everyone that is having trouble interrupting someone spamming Snipe. I for one get it done just fine.

EDIT: Granted, I am speaking from experience in 1v1 situations, not large group siege combat.
I mainly PvP via duels and the occasional getting caught/catching someone en route between keeps.

i have bashed several people using snipe and it fails to interrupt them 75% of the time. i have more luck with venom arrow, but even then it only works out half the time. and i dont have multiple interrupts. i have venom arrow, bash, and pure damage/ survivalbility abilties.

I meant multiple of the same interrupt, i.e. bash a few times in a row, which is really inexpensive. You have Venom Arrow you mentioned, if you light attack weave with Venom Arrow over and over (which the ability excels at) some interrupts are bound to land.

If interrupts are successfully going off, the sniper will be shut down if he's being stunned every 3 seconds from said interrupts. I don't feel the need to employ such repetitive tactics, normally one or two bashes gets the first stun off and is enough to turn the fight in my favor.

Although if people are having real trouble interrupting for whatever reason, spam right back at them, match Snipe spam with interrupt spam. However I do want to assert one more time that I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself here, just that if one person has no issues interrupting why should anyone else.

EDIT: There's a reason Wrecking Blow isn't used back to back in PvP, being in melee range and using a cast time is a huge defensive disadvantage with the susceptibility to really any form of hard cc, let alone the ever inexpensive interrupt function.

In theory, Interrupts seem like the natural counter to snipe spam. However, in practice, due to the constant lag (ZoS, you still need to improve your netcode you know) and the cornucopia of effects and abilites firing off in a siege environment, as well as the fact that Archers are normally standing behind a front line of close ranged fighters, often firing from a height advantage, makes interrupts often not possible.

Therefore, in such an environment, Snipe becomes extremely powerful and potent, further exacerbated by the sheer rate of fire at which it can be shot. Even if you manage to sneak up or somehow close the gap to the Archers, it's an almost certain thing that you will be shot multiple times by snipe, at melee range. I have seen with my own eyes Archers of all factions using Snipe at close melee range, often as the poor sod who has managed to get past the line of close ranged defenders to reach the Archer line get shot down by 4-5 Snipes which connected while he is using a gap closer.

You may argue that this is a siege, and this is a natural course of things. However, this "Snipe at point blank range and go trollolololol" phenomenon is applying to gankers as well. I know Nightblades who Snipes, then uses Ambush to get close, then snipes again at point blank to get the Ambush damage bonus, often killing the poor victim. Do you think this is honestly "right"?

The whole idea of the weapon feat "Snipe" is that a skilled marksman stops to carefully aim an arrow at a gap in the opponent's armor, thereby dealing massive damage with a single arrow. If I gave you a bow in a real life combat situation, would you have the presence of mind to take aim for 1.1 seconds to aim at a weak point in your opponent's armor, all the while being slashed/burnt/shocked/frozen/stabbed/crushed by your opponent in melee range? I highly doubt it.

EDIT: Apparently the word "[snip]" is censored, so I have replaced it with the less fanciful term "Gap"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I get your point, and acknowledge its importance in thread, however...

I did state a few posts earlier on that particular tangent of discussion that I was speaking from a 1v1 standpoint purely

I don't have the background knowledge to debate Snipe's role in siege combat, since I nearly never do it.

I just wanted to bring the other side of the story to the table, where if you're a snipe spammer trying to, for instance, do some dueling, you'll get wrecked. It's plain and simple a bad tactic in 1v1 and easily counterable.
(Unless of course you attack from stealth like in the separate scenario you mentioned, and the enemy is completely oblivious to your existence and/or experiencing the unbreakable cc bug. Otherwise I don't see the spamming of snipe as effective.)

Maybe not so much in large group content, as you discuss, but that wasn't my point

If you want to mention Snipe in duels, try talking to Cpt-Capslock on the EU Megaserver. He manages to destroy some of the best players I know with Snipe in a duel setting. But yes, Cpt-Capslock is the minority, rather then the norm.

Still, it's worth noting that Zenimax seems to be balancing the game round large scale siege combat rather then small scale duels, hence I thought it more appropriate to take the stance of looking at it from a large scale point of view. I however, hold a lot of respect for honor dueling, and am myself a member of the EU cross-faction dueling guild "Arena".

No matter what, I would like to say that I respect and thank you for keeping a calm and civil discussion, unlike some posters in this thread who shall not be named.

As I'm on NA servers, speaking with your mentioned dueling sniper may be a bit difficult. ^.^

Tangent on snipe in duels:

However I am curious, do you mean he is someone who relies on back to back spamming and makes it work in duels? Or just someone who uses a bow and snipe in duels successfully in general?

The former would be cause for some surprise to me, while the latter, while quite respectable, is not as surprising since I myself, while not destroying the best duelers I know, hold my own against them (at least some, heh).

In duels I run my good-old 2h/bow build that I've been running since launch, and Lethal Arrow is on my bar, but I never get the opportunity to use it more than once at a time and few and far between.

Normally someone is in my face ready to CC or interrupt me after one
So if you're indeed telling me this dueler employs back to back sniping (what one could call snipe-spam) in duels successfully, indeed I should try talking to him, I'm sure I could learn quite a bit ^.^

Furthermore, it's quite fair for you, and others, to assume the perspective of large-group PvP, through the majority appeal and lack of in-game mechanics promoting smaller scale and 1v1 combat, this is a valid route to take on the issue.

However I think it's still worth it to bring up how the ability in question behaves in all walks of PvP, as well as the less popular line of discussion that is how any changes could affect Bow builds in PvE, which is largely what the Bow changes in 1.5 were aiming to resolve it seems.

And indeed I also appreciate the civil manner this particular area of discussion has taken, it's always a pleasure when constructive discussions can be had free of overly negative influences, cheers

DeanTheCat

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

one problem i have is the point blank spam. due to the low cost time, interrupting snipe with venom arrow/bash is almost impossible, and people can spam it at point blank without any kind of strategic thought.

the only thing i want changed is the cast time. NOT back to 3 seconds. heck no. That will make the ability completly useless. Nor back to 2 seconds. a 1.5-1.8 second cast time will suit it just fine, while still forcing the user to have to plan instead of spam.

If it's being spammed all you have to do is throw multiple interrupts out and one of them will go through. If melee and simply using bash, that's not very expensive.

I just want to point out it's not everyone that is having trouble interrupting someone spamming Snipe. I for one get it done just fine.

EDIT: Granted, I am speaking from experience in 1v1 situations, not large group siege combat.
I mainly PvP via duels and the occasional getting caught/catching someone en route between keeps.

i have bashed several people using snipe and it fails to interrupt them 75% of the time. i have more luck with venom arrow, but even then it only works out half the time. and i dont have multiple interrupts. i have venom arrow, bash, and pure damage/ survivalbility abilties.

I meant multiple of the same interrupt, i.e. bash a few times in a row, which is really inexpensive. You have Venom Arrow you mentioned, if you light attack weave with Venom Arrow over and over (which the ability excels at) some interrupts are bound to land.

If interrupts are successfully going off, the sniper will be shut down if he's being stunned every 3 seconds from said interrupts. I don't feel the need to employ such repetitive tactics, normally one or two bashes gets the first stun off and is enough to turn the fight in my favor.

Although if people are having real trouble interrupting for whatever reason, spam right back at them, match Snipe spam with interrupt spam. However I do want to assert one more time that I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself here, just that if one person has no issues interrupting why should anyone else.

EDIT: There's a reason Wrecking Blow isn't used back to back in PvP, being in melee range and using a cast time is a huge defensive disadvantage with the susceptibility to really any form of hard cc, let alone the ever inexpensive interrupt function.

In theory, Interrupts seem like the natural counter to snipe spam. However, in practice, due to the constant lag (ZoS, you still need to improve your netcode you know) and the cornucopia of effects and abilites firing off in a siege environment, as well as the fact that Archers are normally standing behind a front line of close ranged fighters, often firing from a height advantage, makes interrupts often not possible.

Therefore, in such an environment, Snipe becomes extremely powerful and potent, further exacerbated by the sheer rate of fire at which it can be shot. Even if you manage to sneak up or somehow close the gap to the Archers, it's an almost certain thing that you will be shot multiple times by snipe, at melee range. I have seen with my own eyes Archers of all factions using Snipe at close melee range, often as the poor sod who has managed to get past the line of close ranged defenders to reach the Archer line get shot down by 4-5 Snipes which connected while he is using a gap closer.

You may argue that this is a siege, and this is a natural course of things. However, this "Snipe at point blank range and go trollolololol" phenomenon is applying to gankers as well. I know Nightblades who Snipes, then uses Ambush to get close, then snipes again at point blank to get the Ambush damage bonus, often killing the poor victim. Do you think this is honestly "right"?

The whole idea of the weapon feat "Snipe" is that a skilled marksman stops to carefully aim an arrow at a gap in the opponent's armor, thereby dealing massive damage with a single arrow. If I gave you a bow in a real life combat situation, would you have the presence of mind to take aim for 1.1 seconds to aim at a weak point in your opponent's armor, all the while being slashed/burnt/shocked/frozen/stabbed/crushed by your opponent in melee range? I highly doubt it.

EDIT: Apparently the word "[snip]" is censored, so I have replaced it with the less fanciful term "Gap"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

I get your point, and acknowledge its importance in thread, however...

I did state a few posts earlier on that particular tangent of discussion that I was speaking from a 1v1 standpoint purely

I don't have the background knowledge to debate Snipe's role in siege combat, since I nearly never do it.

I just wanted to bring the other side of the story to the table, where if you're a snipe spammer trying to, for instance, do some dueling, you'll get wrecked. It's plain and simple a bad tactic in 1v1 and easily counterable.
(Unless of course you attack from stealth like in the separate scenario you mentioned, and the enemy is completely oblivious to your existence and/or experiencing the unbreakable cc bug. Otherwise I don't see the spamming of snipe as effective.)

Maybe not so much in large group content, as you discuss, but that wasn't my point

If you want to mention Snipe in duels, try talking to Cpt-Capslock on the EU Megaserver. He manages to destroy some of the best players I know with Snipe in a duel setting. But yes, Cpt-Capslock is the minority, rather then the norm.

Still, it's worth noting that Zenimax seems to be balancing the game round large scale siege combat rather then small scale duels, hence I thought it more appropriate to take the stance of looking at it from a large scale point of view. I however, hold a lot of respect for honor dueling, and am myself a member of the EU cross-faction dueling guild "Arena".

No matter what, I would like to say that I respect and thank you for keeping a calm and civil discussion, unlike some posters in this thread who shall not be named.

As I'm on NA servers, speaking with your mentioned dueling sniper may be a bit difficult. ^.^

Tangent on snipe in duels:

However I am curious, do you mean he is someone who relies on back to back spamming and makes it work in duels? Or just someone who uses a bow and snipe in duels successfully in general?

The former would be cause for some surprise to me, while the latter, while quite respectable, is not as surprising since I myself, while not destroying the best duelers I know, hold my own against them (at least some, heh).

In duels I run my good-old 2h/bow build that I've been running since launch, and Lethal Arrow is on my bar, but I never get the opportunity to use it more than once at a time and few and far between.

Normally someone is in my face ready to CC or interrupt me after one
So if you're indeed telling me this dueler employs back to back sniping (what one could call snipe-spam) in duels successfully, indeed I should try talking to him, I'm sure I could learn quite a bit ^.^

Furthermore, it's quite fair for you, and others, to assume the perspective of large-group PvP, through the majority appeal and lack of in-game mechanics promoting smaller scale and 1v1 combat, this is a valid route to take on the issue.

However I think it's still worth it to bring up how the ability in question behaves in all walks of PvP, as well as the less popular line of discussion that is how any changes could affect Bow builds in PvE, which is largely what the Bow changes in 1.5 were aiming to resolve it seems.

And indeed I also appreciate the civil manner this particular area of discussion has taken, it's always a pleasure when constructive discussions can be had free of overly negative influences, cheers

Cpt-Capslock does indeed use snipe back to back in duels, but there is more then just snipe involved. It's best if you speak to him yourself. Snipe can be used back to back in duels, it's all about creating an opening for you to use and exploit.

Also, Poison Arrow also received a buff in 1.5, which with light attack weave and the new Undaunted sets will bring high DPS to the table (Infiltrator is awesome btw). It's just that Snipe got way overtuned in 1.5, and therefore we have today's situation. Snipe just doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all skill it is at the moment, for a skill that has a much higher power level then the other bow skills should not come with zero downsides.

RinaldoGandolphi

Honestly, whomever thought these changes to snipe was a good idea oh boy i shudder at the future of this game...This may be the most epic fail in making something OP i have ever seen in a game.

Snipe is essentially a faceroll. Snipe right now is way more OP then Bolt Escape ever was. Bolt Escape never allowed me to do near 2k worth of damage to someone in a single hit, poison them, and giving a healing debuff that is stackable. All Bolt Escape did it did was allow me to run away, yet it was OP and Snipe isn't? You have got to be joking, if your not joking, i pity you....

Snipe might as well be akin to giving a bow user a .243 and expecting Middle Age armies to actually have a chance against it.

To counter Snipe, a user has to make a significant investment, one has to:

1.Craft Impenetrable Armor
2.Must use Radiant Magelight in 2 ability slots.
3.Purge/Cleanse is pretty much required.

So pretty much 3 ability slots and 7 Impenetrable crafted armor is required to counter 1 skill, anyone who thinks that's not OP is simply burying their heads in the sand. Snipe was already borderline OP and very good before this patch, there was no reason to push the changes to it they did.

I have no problems killing bow users most of the time, but that don't mean the skill isn't OP as all be.Most bow users i run into seem to be not very good. (there are a few really good bow users, but they are very few) the rest, if they run into someone they can't one or two shot, they die in short order.

I actually jump for joy now when i see a DK, a Templar, or anyone not using a bow for that matter (which is getting rarer), last night, i was on very briefly , got 20 kills, 2 deaths, all 20 kills were bow users...i never saw a single enemy that wasn't using a bow, and the 6 or so friendly with me were using bows too...i promptly hit the logout button...what a waste.

Right now, PVP is The Elder Bows Online, 7 out of 10 players are using bows. Snipe has the longest reach, no min range, does more damage then Crystal Shards, has less of a cast time, applies a healing and poison debuff....why would you use anything else?

Snipe was really good before this patch, they need to return it to how it was...it was still able to destroy people and do a ton of damage, in its niche which was at range...now its just OP, and if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....