Snipe and it's implication on PvP, from a long time Bow user

Lava_Croft

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Jahosefat

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

RinaldoGandolphi

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

hahaha isn't that the truth! im a Destro/Resto Staff user all the way.

Thechemicals

You get wrecked at close range and call people impulse monkeys....now youre all getting wrecked at range distance...

I have given all the suggestions i can on this thread and even made a thread almost 2 weeks ago to prevent this kind of rampant complaint

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/139866/tiny-guide-to-reducing-snipe-and-gank-damage-and-all-damage-in-cyrodiil#latest

theres a reason that the thread that helps you learn has 3 responses and the thread that is just about moaning has over 20 responses. People rather moan than learn.

RinaldoGandolphi

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Agreed, im far too invested and don't have the time to level up Bow, besides i like my Destro and Resto Staff.

I will say this though, it would be trival to make a Sorc using a bow that would be akin to Talos in Tamriel....

you would have Snipe + Velicious Curse + Mages Wrath....

an execute like Mages Wrath to go with the Bow, and Power/Crit Surge for extra cheese.....it would equal ownage....

Not to mention you would also have Bolt Escape, and Boundless Storm giving you mobility that is unmatched, no one could even get close to you or even in in range to hit you unless you let them. you would have 100% control of every engagement. in the rare instance one does get close, Boundless Storm soft caps both Armor and Spell Resist, Damages anyone who is close, and would increase the bow users movement speed by 30%, and thats if he doesn't decide to Streak Stun you instead.

Then there is Daedric Mines he could surrond himself with...yup

Me and a former Emp were talking about this the other night, neither of us are going to do it(i don't think anyways), but i will tell you right now, a Sorc with a Bow will show the world just how OP bow is simply because NO ONE would be able to kill the Sorc because you could never get in range to hit him while he will have no problem Sniping you to death, and being the king of mobility with Streak and Boundless Storm, along with having a great execute in Mages Wrath, the healing debuff, delayed damage skills for filler, the ability to max his armor whenever he likes, the Surge ability to soft cap weapon damage, makes it trival to get you in execute range to die from a safe distance where you will never be able to hit him.

A well played Sorc with a Bow will have 100% control over the terms of every engagement, Streak assures he will never be in range to attack him, all while his range is greater then yours and he will be at a comfortable distance owning you.

Outside of DK scales, which can be countered with Curse, Channell attacks, and skillful kiting, the Bow Sorc will own eveyr other class with very little effort whatsoever...you can't kill what your never in range to attack, he can hit you, but you won't be able to hit him.

pretty cheesy eh? its the reason why im not doing it...because its OP beyond OP...only a DK with Scales has a chance, and a Lighting Staff in off hand + Daedric Mines + Curse and Mages Wrath and good use of Streak make that totally doable to get around.....everyone else will die while the Bow Sorc stays well out of range of any of your attacks, and there ill be little to nothing you can do about it. So OP

Lilarna

Thanks a lot DeanTheCat for your long, solid and rather objective argumentation.

DeanTheCat wrote: »

I headed up to Scroll Temple Ni-Mohk. There, with Lethal Arrow, Mass Hysteria, Healing Ward and Poison Injection, I managed to clear the scroll-less scroll temple of Ni-Mohk of ALL of it's temple guards. Think about it. A single lone Nightblade archer, managing to clear a SCROLL TEMPLE solo.

I quote this example which is the perfect illustration to highlight that Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim is currently broken, whether it be for PvP or for PvE actually.

The NPC defenses in Cyrodiil are a crucial part of the War, so it is important to know how keep defenses function on their own against a single or small group of players, it's a very valid test.

I hope we have news soon from @JessicaFolson, @GinaBruno or anybody on this subject, unless I have missed any announcements already made about Snipe.

Thechemicals

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Those were bugs and snipe is working as intended. The silver bolts was a bug....blazing shield was a very rare occurence bug. Bad players are always going to confuse a bug with whats working as intended.

A bug is something that shouldnt be happening under the games mechanics(silver bolts 50% proc on vamps)

An exploit is something that was overlooked and not expected (dragonleaping to steal scrolls)

Everything else is how the game works and as intended. If snipe has been overlooked on its mechanics it may be the possibility that its healing debuff is stacking with the disease debuff, but it hasnt been confirmed that that is a bug or an exploit. So just hot air and angry players right now.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

13 lols to op are those noob snipe monkeys hes talking about. Bunch of balance destroying noobs wanting some free ap. That's all bow is now.

Hes exactly right. The cost reduction to snipe was good, but the major cast time reduction and dead zone removal was not smart. Bring snipe back up to no lower than 1.5 seconds and reinstate the deadzone. It stops being a snipe if youre 1m from your target.

MiyaTheUnbroken

Thechemicals wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Those were bugs and snipe is working as intended. The silver bolts was a bug....blazing shield was a very rare occurence bug. Bad players are always going to confuse a bug with whats working as intended.

A bug is something that shouldnt be happening under the games mechanics(silver bolts 50% proc on vamps)

An exploit is something that was overlooked and not expected (dragonleaping to steal scrolls)

Everything else is how the game works and as intended. If snipe has been overlooked on its mechanics it may be the possibility that its healing debuff is stacking with the disease debuff, but it hasnt been confirmed that that is a bug or an exploit. So just hot air and angry players right now.

Snipe isn't working as intended though. I may have dreamed it, but I'm pretty sure somewhere someone from ZoS said that the heal debuff isn't supposed to stack and they will fix it eventually. Again, I might have made that up, but I think it happened. Regardless of whether or not it was admitted, that heal debuff is definitely not working as intended.

Kungfu

To the subject proposed in the OP:

Bring back dead zone - yes.
- This will fit with lore, a smidge of reality, and most other gaming systems out there.
- This will also bring a level of skill for the player, requiring bow users to know when to switch to HtH based on stuff like: "did I just hit a teleporting sorc?" "Is that guy running at me or someone else?" "Shall I sidestep and try one more or whip out my [insert implement of mass destruction here]"


Increase the cast time?
No. Snipe is now the bow user's "bread and butter" - just as ZOS said they wanted it. And why shouldn't it be? It takes a while to get to it when you're bringing your character up... shouldn't it be worth more than just a two-shot opener?
It's not OP - it's just popular.

Just ask Anyone with a build that is even remotely tanky. ESPECIALLY someone with a stamina build and a 1hand & shield loadout. They will tell you bows are worthless against them. I am a very successful sniper

And for those of you who are doing so, quit speaking like "me luv bow since beta so u opinion suk" - having used a bow since beta doesn't make you any better a judge of its current state than others. Making statements like that only detract from the validity of your arguments as it can also be construed as a nice way of saying that's all you've ever done.

Thechemicals

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Those were bugs and snipe is working as intended. The silver bolts was a bug....blazing shield was a very rare occurence bug. Bad players are always going to confuse a bug with whats working as intended.

A bug is something that shouldnt be happening under the games mechanics(silver bolts 50% proc on vamps)

An exploit is something that was overlooked and not expected (dragonleaping to steal scrolls)

Everything else is how the game works and as intended. If snipe has been overlooked on its mechanics it may be the possibility that its healing debuff is stacking with the disease debuff, but it hasnt been confirmed that that is a bug or an exploit. So just hot air and angry players right now.

Snipe isn't working as intended though. I may have dreamed it, but I'm pretty sure somewhere someone from ZoS said that the heal debuff isn't supposed to stack and they will fix it eventually. Again, I might have made that up, but I think it happened. Regardless of whether or not it was admitted, that heal debuff is definitely not working as intended.

Yeah thats what i said.

RinaldoGandolphi

Let see here:

Snipe has shorter cast time then Crystal Shards
Snipe has 35 meter range vs Crystal Shards 28 meter range
Snipe also applies a poison dot
Snipe applies a healing debuff that can stack.

and thats not OP in the slightest?...right....if thats not OP then I want my Bolt Escape Back, I want my 50% cost reduction removed, and i want my man regen penalty removed. Afterall Bolt Escape does not:

1. Do 1.2-1.5k worth of damage regularly
2. does not have an insane range of 38 meters
3. Does not apply a DOT
4. Does not apply a healing debuff


If Snipe isn't OP, then neither is pre-=nerf Bolt Escape, and I want it back and Snipe users have no ground to stand on to contest that because they are using an ability that is way more OP then Bolt Escape ever was and thats a fact! Bolt Escape has never been capable of killing and dolling out an insane amount of damage and healing debuffs at a 38 meter range like Snipe can.

the only ones arguing Snipe isn't OP are the ones directly benefiting from using it.

Bipolo

Solid write-up OP, tyvm

as many have suggested,

- Fix the Healing Debuff stacking (ASAP!)
- Bring back 6-10m dead zone (you shouldn't be able to "360 no scope" in melee range)

Test it out and see what happens. Then consider tweaking cast-time between 1.1 > 1.3sec

Jahosefat

Thechemicals wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Those were bugs and snipe is working as intended. The silver bolts was a bug....blazing shield was a very rare occurence bug. Bad players are always going to confuse a bug with whats working as intended.

A bug is something that shouldnt be happening under the games mechanics(silver bolts 50% proc on vamps)

An exploit is something that was overlooked and not expected (dragonleaping to steal scrolls)

Everything else is how the game works and as intended. If snipe has been overlooked on its mechanics it may be the possibility that its healing debuff is stacking with the disease debuff, but it hasnt been confirmed that that is a bug or an exploit. So just hot air and angry players right now.

ZOS has said that the healing debuff stacking twice IS a bug. So yes, snipe is bugged and every sniper is benefiting from that bug. What was your point again?

[Edit]: Before someone denies this, here is link to the post with ZOS reply http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/139780/stacking-lethal-arrows-from-any-one-player-100-healing-debuff/p1

And the ZOS comment if you are lazy: "Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that the stacking of Lethal Arrow is not intended, and we are looking into this. Thanks for the reports!" from gina.

Jahosefat

woodsro wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

if you have access or spare skillpoints to spare, there is no reason not to use a bow....

At this moment, not using a bow builds character. That amounts to something!

Every time I see a sniper I can't help but judge them as I crushing shock them down. I'm not terribly surprised by all the FOTM re-roll monkeys. Remember when silver bolts was bugged and was one-shotting vamps? The blazing shield bug... Bad players are going to cling to the most OP/exploitable ability at the time.

I'm amazed zos can work out a fix for the healing ward bug in less than a week, but leave in these 1-2 shot exploits for weeks-months.

Agreed, im far too invested and don't have the time to level up Bow, besides i like my Destro and Resto Staff.

I will say this though, it would be trival to make a Sorc using a bow that would be akin to Talos in Tamriel....

you would have Snipe + Velicious Curse + Mages Wrath....

an execute like Mages Wrath to go with the Bow, and Power/Crit Surge for extra cheese.....it would equal ownage....

Not to mention you would also have Bolt Escape, and Boundless Storm giving you mobility that is unmatched, no one could even get close to you or even in in range to hit you unless you let them. you would have 100% control of every engagement. in the rare instance one does get close, Boundless Storm soft caps both Armor and Spell Resist, Damages anyone who is close, and would increase the bow users movement speed by 30%, and thats if he doesn't decide to Streak Stun you instead.

Then there is Daedric Mines he could surrond himself with...yup

Me and a former Emp were talking about this the other night, neither of us are going to do it(i don't think anyways), but i will tell you right now, a Sorc with a Bow will show the world just how OP bow is simply because NO ONE would be able to kill the Sorc because you could never get in range to hit him while he will have no problem Sniping you to death, and being the king of mobility with Streak and Boundless Storm, along with having a great execute in Mages Wrath, the healing debuff, delayed damage skills for filler, the ability to max his armor whenever he likes, the Surge ability to soft cap weapon damage, makes it trival to get you in execute range to die from a safe distance where you will never be able to hit him.

A well played Sorc with a Bow will have 100% control over the terms of every engagement, Streak assures he will never be in range to attack him, all while his range is greater then yours and he will be at a comfortable distance owning you.

Outside of DK scales, which can be countered with Curse, Channell attacks, and skillful kiting, the Bow Sorc will own eveyr other class with very little effort whatsoever...you can't kill what your never in range to attack, he can hit you, but you won't be able to hit him.

pretty cheesy eh? its the reason why im not doing it...because its OP beyond OP...only a DK with Scales has a chance, and a Lighting Staff in off hand + Daedric Mines + Curse and Mages Wrath and good use of Streak make that totally doable to get around.....everyone else will die while the Bow Sorc stays well out of range of any of your attacks, and there ill be little to nothing you can do about it. So OP

Though interesting, I've found in the past that sorc builds relying on a stam ability for DPS either has: 1.) too low mag to use streak to the fullest 2.) low hp that you get 2-shot from anyone 3.) low stam so stam abilities don't hit very hard. I think the counter to this would be a high mag crushing shock sorc. You would never get away from him (much higher mag, a lot more streaks) and he would deny you the ability to cast snipe with crushing shock spam. I think it could be a good build, but would be vulnerable to other sorcs (particularly crushing shock builds).

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hi everyone,

We want you do know we've been keeping an eye on this thread since it started, and have read every post. We appreciate how thoughtful and mostly constructive the discussion has been. We're looking at Snipe with a very objective approach, taking both sides of the discussion in this thread into consideration.

One of the issues mentioned throughout--healing debuff stacking--is not intended and may the be change that's needed. We're aiming to roll out that fix in an incremental patch after 1.5.6. After that fix goes in, we'll be looking for your feedback on whether or not it's made Snipe feel more appropriately balanced.

LunaRae

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

One of the issues mentioned throughout--healing debuff stacking--is not intended and may the be change that's needed. We're aiming to roll out that fix in an incremental patch after 1.5.6. After that fix goes in, we'll be looking for your feedback on whether or not it's made Snipe feel more appropriately balanced.

can't wait for the healing debuff stacking to get fixed. This is honestly the only thing that bothers me in PvP w/ snipers.

Agrippa_Invisus

Fixing the heal debuff stacking is an important step to really finding out if Snipe is balanced currently. If things are fine after that, then I wouldn't expect many, if any, further changes.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We want you do know we've been keeping an eye on this thread since it started, and have read every post. We appreciate how thoughtful and mostly constructive the discussion has been. We're looking at Snipe with a very objective approach, taking both sides of the discussion in this thread into consideration.

One of the issues mentioned throughout--healing debuff stacking--is not intended and may the be change that's needed. We're aiming to roll out that fix in an incremental patch after 1.5.6. After that fix goes in, we'll be looking for your feedback on whether or not it's made Snipe feel more appropriately balanced.

I was liking all the changes you were making to 2h, but then I saw the changes to bow. The day snipes change hit PTS, many people voiced that it was a bad idea for the cast time to go so low. For me, its because it negated whatever you did to make 2h better. None of it may matter for PvE but when put in PvP you still can't use a sword without 50 people opening up on you with that bow.

Being against the change was without knowing that lethal arrow had the healing debuff bug. It only amplifies the imbalance created. All the people who picked up bow after the changes aren't going to put it down because that gets fixed. They picked it up because it became the next OP thing to jump on.

All you have to do is read the first 1.5 patch note thread on the PTS forum. its filled with a lot of "we told you so"s that actually had nothing to do with the bug that came along with that OP buff.

Lettigall

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We want you do know we've been keeping an eye on this thread since it started, and have read every post. We appreciate how thoughtful and mostly constructive the discussion has been. We're looking at Snipe with a very objective approach, taking both sides of the discussion in this thread into consideration.

One of the issues mentioned throughout--healing debuff stacking--is not intended and may the be change that's needed. We're aiming to roll out that fix in an incremental patch after 1.5.6. After that fix goes in, we'll be looking for your feedback on whether or not it's made Snipe feel more appropriately balanced.

I was liking all the changes you were making to 2h, but then I saw the changes to bow. The day snipes change hit PTS, many people voiced that it was a bad idea for the cast time to go so low. For me, its because it negated whatever you did to make 2h better. None of it may matter for PvE but when put in PvP you still can't use a sword without 50 people opening up on you with that bow.

Being against the change was without knowing that lethal arrow had the healing debuff bug. It only amplifies the imbalance created. All the people who picked up bow after the changes aren't going to put it down because that gets fixed. They picked it up because it became the next OP thing to jump on.

All you have to do is read the first 1.5 patch note thread on the PTS forum. its filled with a lot of "we told you so"s that actually had nothing to do with the bug that came along with that OP buff.

Agree, healing debuff was only cherry on top. I put bow on my templar: full clothe(seducer+ warlock). And even on magicka build it's the best single target ability available.

I wonder how it got through PTS? Ether people who plays there don't send reports or ZoS don't give a *** about them! Why the *** only now ZoS realize that this ability need to be tested?

kijima

Huh?

PTS is just a server dedicated to showcase what will be OP in the upcoming next update. Did you not get the memo from ZOS?

Hypertionb14_ESO

Deadzone return yes, however the dps is not something that can be removed. Stam builds have no other way to Ranged DPS atm..

untill those changes Stam builds that chose to fight at range were too much of a detrement...

they need to alter cast times seperately for PVP.. simple as that.

and fix the ****** stacking of Lethal Arrow... thats unexcuseable...

DovresMalven

the cast time could be a smidge longer tbh

Domander

The only thing a deadzone would add is frustration.

Francescolg

Lettigall wrote: »

Agree, healing debuff was only cherry on top. I put bow on my templar: full clothe(seducer+ warlock). And even on magicka build it's the best single target ability available.

Oh, I don't think so: it is just the first time you do "regular dmg" with your templar

Bushrat

OK... I am a long time bow user.. bla bla since launch etc. I love snipe and always have.

ZOS please do not remove the healing debuff (ofc fix the stacking error), maybe make the dead zone around 5m, and leave the cast time where it is. As a NB stamina user, we need all the help we can get. People don't forget reflective scales and other projectile blocking moves. We bow users need all the advantages we can get. And just because some people are now using it because its very a good weapon just means that ZOS got something right with the bow. I think it only needs minor tweaking.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

elausche_ESO wrote: »

Changes to attempt to balance Snipe and it's morphs.

-Fix Lethal Arrow, so that it does not stack with itself for the healing debuff.
-Increase cast time to 1.3 seconds to match other cast times in the game.
-Add a 6+ meter minimum range. If the enemy can melee you, they can't be sniped.

This is the best solution. 1.3 is crystal frags, dark flare and other spam spells.

Lava_Croft

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

elausche_ESO wrote: »

Changes to attempt to balance Snipe and it's morphs.

-Fix Lethal Arrow, so that it does not stack with itself for the healing debuff.
-Increase cast time to 1.3 seconds to match other cast times in the game.
-Add a 6+ meter minimum range. If the enemy can melee you, they can't be sniped.

This is the best solution. 1.3 is crystal frags, dark flare and other spam spells.

Every single spell and ability is one that you (can) spam.

Maulkin

It's rather frustrating having abilities that don't work at all suddenly when a player closes in. I think a better solution would be to make the damage scale more with distance, like double the dependence on the Long Shots passive or something.

Something like 450 base dmg in the range 0-8, 600 in the 8-16 range and 725 (current base) at anything beyond that. In that case using Snipe at point blank is possible but nowhere near as efficient.

As other people have said, as soon as the cost of death increased by having to ride back into action, people play more safe and range rather than engage. For range Snipe is the best ability, with more burst, DPS and less ways to be negated or mitigated than magicka abilities. It's how it is.

I think if Defensive Posture or other tools to negate some of the ranged damage worked on bows you would see far far less complains.

Let's start with fixing the debuff and then reassess a few weeks later.

eliisra

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think if Defensive Posture or other tools to negate some of the ranged damage worked on bows you would see far far less complains.

Let's start with fixing the debuff and then reassess a few weeks later.

I would love if one Defensive Posture morph mitigated bow dmg. Doesn't have to fully absorb or reflect it, but maybe reduce dmg taken, return stamina on hit or something. That way non-DK's would have a greater chance of surviving the archer horde for more than a few seconds.

But just like you say, if there where non-class skills that negated or mitigated bow dmg, you wouldn't see all these complains (and clusters of 100+ Legolas-wannabes all trying to fit on top the same tiny rock 45+ meters away from the fight for easy kills).

Fixing the debuff is a good start and preferably sooner than later. Not sure if it's enough, but I rather they do these things with caution, one step at a time, to make sure bow keeps it's edge.