Clarification regarding experience gain within Veteran Ranks

Vizier

thorntk421 wrote: »

So, only gaining maybe half of a VR level after clearing a vet zone(quests,delves,dungeons,bosses,POI's) is going to be the norm now? Or is that part of the exp bug? Clearing a vet zone pre 1.5 gave at least a full VR level. How is this making vet leveling faster?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ While I appreciate your explanation THIS is the question that needs to be answered. ZoS doesn't want folks grinding Bosses. I get it. But if what you say is true then...If working through a Cadwell's Silver Zone and completing everything in it previously gave approximately 1 Vet level HOW on Earth does ZoS consider doing 2 to 3 zones for 1 Vet Level faster?

Those leveling through Questing these zones were NOT grinding fast levels by taking advantage of the VP giving by Bosses and Boss Mobs. So those progressing through the other alliance story lines played as intended and progressed at the NORMAL rate. Will the fixes ZOS is planning put that play style back to or faster than previous rates of gain? When you say there is no significant loss in xp right now I have to wonder if we are even on the same page. It doesn't sound like it.

There needs to be a balance between the sense of progression and accomplishment. Especially in a game we pay for, for ENTERTAINMENT. It appears to be moving more in the direction of feeling like a job than a game with regard to XP and leveling.

Cazic

Yeah, I'm thinking once all is said and done the Champion System will be great and these issues will be a thing of the past. It's the journey there that's a concern.

Hopefully ZoS steps in and does a better job of communicating expectations during this transitional period.

Guppet

It's like they are saying levelng stops at 50, from then on its just an xp grind. Which when the champion system comes out will be true. But if they are doing that before the champion system, they need to lower the level needed for trials and DSA.

BergisMacBride

@‌ZOS_GinaBruno

I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this subject but find myself utterly confused by your clarification, especially when trying to reconcile it with ZOS’ previous statements regarding these changes in the 1.52 patch notes. If you could answer a couple of questions, perhaps this will allow me to better understand the Devs intent.

1. Do the Devs still stand by this statement in the 1.52 patch notes?:

“It takes 1,432,550 Experience Points to gain a Veteran Rank. We expect this to reduce the amount of time it takes to gain a Veteran Rank.”

I play the PvE part of the game mostly solo as a completionist. Pre 1.52, I would gain slight more than one VR per Caldwell’s Silver\Gold zone doing everything (quests, dungeons, world bosses, dolmens, etc). Since it takes the same amount of time to fully complete a zone pre and post 1.5, most of us assumed that fully completing a VR zone would net noticeably more than one VR level, since around one VR level was the standard levelling rate beforehand. With the adjustments to quest XP capping and mob XP in 1.53, can we expect this to be true? The adjustments will have to be pretty substantial as the reports from all over are that as of now, fully completing a VR zone nets about 1/3-1/2 a VR level, considerably less than before. Please clarify this again.


2. You speak about rethinking our levelling strategy post 1.53 to gain a VR level. I must admit I have no earthly idea what you and the Devs mean here and at which playstyle that statement was directed. Does this mean you are deemphasizing boss grinds in Craglorn? Exactly what is the vision of the Devs on how we should level VR ranks most efficiently post 1.5? Questing and zone completion? Group content? Regular mob grinding? Please clarify this again.


3. With the recent changes, what is the target VR level the Devs envision for completion of the 10 Caldwell’s VR zones? If the completion of Caldwell’s leaves a player far short of VR14, is Craglorn questing(lol) supposed to get them to VR14? What do primarily solo players do the rank up after Caldwell’s?


4. I know Champion levels are coming, VR is going away, VP is being changed to XP, etc…; however, I have yet to read a clearcut explanation from the Devs on what this means for players in terms of their current ranks\levels. Does everyone revert to level 50? What does this mean for current VR gear - does that go away or stay? What will this do to the difficulty level of mobs in current VR zones and Craglorn and how will those mob levels be differentiated? A clear and detailed description of these changes would probably go a long way to addressing concerns of the community, particularly during this transition period.

In the end, we players are a pretty straightforward group. We usually take things we are told by the Devs at face value, such as “We expect this to reduce the amount of time it takes to gain a Veteran Rank.” When it turns out to be not only untrue, but pretty much the exact opposite of what we are told and by a large amount, that is when we get upset. Now we get a “clarification” that only serves to confuse us even more. I hope you can understand our frustration, @ZOS_GinaBruno.

Valencer

I understand that you (Zenimax Online) want to equalize XP gain for different playstyles. That's all well and good. The originally envisioned 20-hours per veteran rank seems spot on to me, as I quested to VR10 through Cadwell's Silver and Gold which took about 180 hours (9 VRs to earn).

It's also very obvious that grinding in Craglorn was obviously greatly speeding that process up.

My main concern is that according to the clarification you've provided, it should now take about 12-16 hours per veteran rank, regardless of playstyle. I can't say if this is true for grinding, but for questing this is definitely not the case. I'm levelling a new character through the VR zones (VR5 now), which is basically still the exact same content as when I ran through it with my first character and I'm noticing a big decrease in levelling speed since update 1.5.

Many people in my guild have also confirmed that XP gains have greatly decreased for veteran questing.

Logically you'd expect less time per veteran rank = quicker, not slower levelling.
I'm assuming this is happening because of the quest XP cap bug you mentioned, and fixing this will indeed bring veteran levelling (through questing) down to 12-16 hours per veteran rank.

So if I understand this correctly, the quest XP bug will get fixed in 1.5.3, and veteran ranks will indeed take 12-16 hours across all playstyles? If not, what am I missing?

LegacyDM

Well, if your going to significantly reduce the xp gained from completing cyrodil pve quests, can you at least remove the daily limitation?

Bars

ffs what are they thinking ,who in their right mind thought this was /is a good idea . I will be back when they change this

thorntk421

Vizier wrote: »

thorntk421 wrote: »

So, only gaining maybe half of a VR level after clearing a vet zone(quests,delves,dungeons,bosses,POI's) is going to be the norm now? Or is that part of the exp bug? Clearing a vet zone pre 1.5 gave at least a full VR level. How is this making vet leveling faster?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ While I appreciate your explanation THIS is the question that needs to be answered. ZoS doesn't want folks grinding Bosses. I get it. But if what you say is true then...If working through a Cadwell's Silver Zone and completing everything in it previously gave approximately 1 Vet level HOW on Earth does ZoS consider doing 2 to 3 zones for 1 Vet Level faster?

Those leveling through Questing these zones were NOT grinding fast levels by taking advantage of the VP giving by Bosses and Boss Mobs. So those progressing through the other alliance story lines played as intended and progressed at the NORMAL rate. Will the fixes ZOS is planning put that play style back to or faster than previous rates of gain? When you say there is no significant loss in xp right now I have to wonder if we are even on the same page. It doesn't sound like it.

There needs to be a balance between the sense of progression and accomplishment. Especially in a game we pay for, for ENTERTAINMENT. It appears to be moving more in the direction of feeling like a job than a game with regard to XP and leveling.

I fully get/understand that after Champ system kicks in all of this VR lv. stuff will be pointless and not matter at all. BUT, I'm guessing that won't be for at least another 5-6 weeks..If we continue questing in VR zones like normal. As suggested by Gina(She's just the messenger by the way. See a lot of people yelling directly at her.) With the current exp rewards, I will more than likely be a VR5 trying to quest in a VR 7 or 8 zone..that's gonna hurt!

Hope the incoming exp fix will address this.

Grunim

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Well, if your going to significantly reduce the xp gained from completing cyrodil pve quests, can you at least remove the daily limitation?

Currently how much xp does a Cyrodiil PvE quest yield for a veteran player?

WraithAzraiel

Cazic wrote: »

Yeah, I'm thinking once all is said and done the Champion System will be great and these issues will be a thing of the past. It's the journey there that's a concern.

Hopefully ZoS steps in and does a better job of communicating expectations during this transitional period.

thorntk421 wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

thorntk421 wrote: »

So, only gaining maybe half of a VR level after clearing a vet zone(quests,delves,dungeons,bosses,POI's) is going to be the norm now? Or is that part of the exp bug? Clearing a vet zone pre 1.5 gave at least a full VR level. How is this making vet leveling faster?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ While I appreciate your explanation THIS is the question that needs to be answered. ZoS doesn't want folks grinding Bosses. I get it. But if what you say is true then...If working through a Cadwell's Silver Zone and completing everything in it previously gave approximately 1 Vet level HOW on Earth does ZoS consider doing 2 to 3 zones for 1 Vet Level faster?

Those leveling through Questing these zones were NOT grinding fast levels by taking advantage of the VP giving by Bosses and Boss Mobs. So those progressing through the other alliance story lines played as intended and progressed at the NORMAL rate. Will the fixes ZOS is planning put that play style back to or faster than previous rates of gain? When you say there is no significant loss in xp right now I have to wonder if we are even on the same page. It doesn't sound like it.

There needs to be a balance between the sense of progression and accomplishment. Especially in a game we pay for, for ENTERTAINMENT. It appears to be moving more in the direction of feeling like a job than a game with regard to XP and leveling.

I fully get/understand that after Champ system kicks in all of this VR lv. stuff will be pointless and not matter at all. BUT, I'm guessing that won't be for at least another 5-6 weeks..If we continue questing in VR zones like normal. As suggested by Gina(She's just the messenger by the way. See a lot of people yelling directly at her.) With the current exp rewards, I will more than likely be a VR5 trying to quest in a VR 7 or 8 zone..that's gonna hurt!

Hope the incoming exp fix will address this.

Once again, that's all well and good but the Champion System won't be rolled out til at least 1st quarter 2015. If this problem isn't fixed, they stand to lose a decent percentage of players and subscriptions due to their politicking and poor decisions.

What the hell are people supposed to do in the mean time? Wish in one hand, sh!# in the other and see which one fills up faster?

Vizier

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

I think that people are forgetting one basic thing. In a few months, the Veteran ranks will be gone. All that you are earning right now is xp towards the champion system. When the VR are removed, everyone that has been a veteran will be level 50 no matter where they are now. The only difference will be that they have more champion passives.

We are not forgetting this: XP is like currency toward the champion system and ZoS just put us low level vets on minimum wage. Now we'll see a larger gap between the rich and poor since those at the top can with best gear already have their way paved for them to keep raking in the most efficient rates of XP and so be Champion Point rich and richer.

I feel cheated that I tried to experience the game and concentrated on PvP after I reach Vet level. Now that I switched gears a bit and started leveling again because I discovered leveling through pvp is just too slow the whole system changes and I have to grind story line and quest and dailies which I can only take so much of. At a certain point I'd rather grind mobs and bosses than hear the same Bull Crap from the Same NPC Over and over and hear the same story over and over. You watch a movie or read a book or TV show Over and over and over and over again? I know I EFFING can't no matter how good it is.

VP is what we earned for leveling. Those high level vets had all their efficiently earned VP converted to XP and even the VP they earned beyond counts toward the champion system. It doesn't matter if we earned less xp because it was VP that was the standard and our time that was the barometer. That XP is roughly the same doesn't mean a rats ass because it is our time that has significantly increased to see a level change. So in the end we will basically work longer and harder for XP...Oh JOY.

WraithAzraiel

Champion System roll out is supposed to be 4 phases if I remember correctly. I believe Update 5 is only Phase 1, possibly 2 but definitely not 3. So we have at the very least about 2.5 months to wait until the Champion system is out.

Valen_Byte

" you may need to rethink your leveling strategy"

I can't believe you just told us to L2P lol

LegacyDM

Grunim wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Well, if your going to significantly reduce the xp gained from completing cyrodil pve quests, can you at least remove the daily limitation?

Currently how much xp does a Cyrodiil PvE quest yield for a veteran player?

Lol, in the old vr system it would scale with lvl. At vr 11 I was getting around 35k. Now at vr 12 I get around 4,900 xp per quest completion.

Valen_Byte

I'll just consider my 15 bucks a month a forum subscription fee until this is fixed.
At this point the forums are more entertaining anyway.

WraithAzraiel

Valencer wrote: »

I understand that you (Zenimax Online) want to equalize XP gain for different playstyles. That's all well and good. The originally envisioned 20-hours per veteran rank seems spot on to me, as I quested to VR10 through Cadwell's Silver and Gold which took about 180 hours (9 VRs to earn).

It's also very obvious that grinding in Craglorn was obviously greatly speeding that process up.

My main concern is that according to the clarification you've provided, it should now take about 12-16 hours per veteran rank, regardless of playstyle. I can't say if this is true for grinding, but for questing this is definitely not the case. I'm levelling a new character through the VR zones (VR5 now), which is basically still the exact same content as when I ran through it with my first character and I'm noticing a big decrease in levelling speed since update 1.5.

Many people in my guild have also confirmed that XP gains have greatly decreased for veteran questing.

Logically you'd expect less time per veteran rank = quicker, not slower levelling.
I'm assuming this is happening because of the quest XP cap bug you mentioned, and fixing this will indeed bring veteran levelling (through questing) down to 12-16 hours per veteran rank.

So if I understand this correctly, the quest XP bug will get fixed in 1.5.3, and veteran ranks will indeed take 12-16 hours across all playstyles? If not, what am I missing?

I think 12-16 hours per Veteran rank is pushing it. I think the time should be reduced. In my opinion you should be gaining 1 Vet level for completing a zone to the requirements of Cadwell's Silver/Gold. Not be forced to garner every single achievement and scrap of content in that zone. That's exhausting!

Completionism should be going the extra mile, not par for the course. It goes back to my previous statements, if you put more in, you should get more out. If you complete a zone in it's entirety you should be ahead of the curve for the next zone. Not "right on the dot".

I get it, this is a stop-gap to prevent people from running out of content too early and leaving them game but holy hell was it over done.

Most of us have been waiting for the new content and the new zones and the new shinies since the QuakeCon video. Waiting a bit longer isn't going to kill us, this handicap that's currently in place (if the leveling slowdown was indeed intentional) is unnecessary.

Valencer

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I think 12-16 hours per Veteran rank is pushing it. I think the time should be reduced. In my opinion you should be gaining 1 Vet level for completing a zone to the requirements of Cadwell's Silver/Gold. Not be forced to garner every single achievement and scrap of content in that zone. That's exhausting!

Completionism should be going the extra mile, not par for the course. It goes back to my previous statements, if you put more in, you should get more out. If you complete a zone in it's entirety you should be ahead of the curve for the next zone. Not "right on the dot".

I agree that completionism shouldn't be required. But considering I spent about 20 hours per veteran rank (as was envisioned by them), 12-16 looks pretty damn good to me. They haven't changed the actual questing content. It should leave room for skipping a significant part of a VR zone.

Of course, currently the exact opposite is happening, so we'll just have to wait and see what they're going to do about the situation. 2-3 zones per VR is just silly.

timidobserver

Has anyone tried mob grinding? That was the best way to level 1-50, so in theory, it should be good for veteran leveling now since we are back to XP.

Epsilon_Echo

I keep going back to read the OP. I'm still pretty much dumbfounded. Like really, I don't even... Can we maybe get some clarification or like a hint where we're supposed to get the missing 700000-900000 exp for each vet level? If it's a scavenger hunt or something can I just admit failure and buy a strategy guid at Walmart or something?

Somebody here is missing something so huge and I hope more than anything it's me?

thorntk421

timidobserver wrote: »

Has anyone tried mob grinding? That was the best way to level 1-50, so in theory, it should be good for veteran leveling now since we are back to XP.

As a v4 in Riften I was getting around 420-450 exp PER normal trash mob. Compare that to around 500-5000 exp per quest turn in...I'm sure you can do the math.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

Valen_Byte wrote: »

" you may need to rethink your leveling strategy"

I can't believe you just told us to L2P lol

It is.. cheeky.. to put it kindly. You shouldn't have to have a "levelling strategy" at all, especially if you're just questing Vet zones. If playing the game as was originally intended doesn't work then you really need to rethink your development strategy ZOS.

Even the fanboys are pretty quiet on this one. I really don't see a lot of disagreement on this issue. Around these parts that says a lot.

Epsilon_Echo

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

" you may need to rethink your leveling strategy"

I can't believe you just told us to L2P lol

It is.. cheeky.. to put it kindly. You shouldn't have to have a "levelling strategy" at all, especially if you're just questing Vet zones. If playing the game as was originally intended doesn't work then you really need to rethink your development strategy ZOS.

Even the fanboys are pretty quiet on this one. I really don't see a lot of disagreement on this issue. Around these parts that says a lot.

We are the fanboys. At least I am. Most of the other issues to date have been "game breakers" of personal preference despite what people say. 90% of those issues were fixed. This is a whole other beast. We say "there are x number of exp points needed for a level and we are there are y number of exp in the entire game. X < Y" zos says " figure it out".

...

WraithAzraiel

Oh I'm a fanboy of this game through and through, and I'm livid about this catastrophy of a decision/bug/whatever the hell it is.

Unbelievable.

Enodoc

Having just hit VR1 on my main I have no experience of the previous system, so I just want to reconcile in my head what has happened - you could previously get about 1 rank per zone? And now you need to do 2/3 zones to get one rank?

So basically this is too big: 1,432,550 XP per Veteran Rank. Lose the 1 and make it 432,550 XP instead.

WraithAzraiel

Long story short, yes - they botched the math and this is what we got. Whether it was intentional or otherwise has yet to be seen.

Could be as simple as someone moved a decimal point 1 place too many. Or this is an absolutely HORRID stop-gap measure to slow everyone's level progression until the Champion System comes out.

I hope it's not the latter, as their subscription base will (likely) plummet.

Doom.

Winnower

Unfortunately your numbers in this post don't make any sense. It took 2-5 hours maximum doing regular stuff to do a vet level before 1.5.

If you got a great Craglorn grind it was even faster for some levels.

If your numbers on based on the listed time period in the above post, then you have a disconnect of understanding and perception with your player base. Trust us, we know how long it takes to get a level. If you change things so that it is slower we know with horrible precision how much slower it is.

I have 2 VR14s, and a VR7 in a 3rd alliance that is now stranded - not able to level.

And if the current situation doesn't change *significantly* until the champion system comes out you're going to lose a large percentage of your player base between now and Christmas.

Frankly you have a choice to allow 50+ level toons to level a whole level in 2-5 hours, or risk losing vast numbers of current players.

This needs to get through to the powers that be, and something needs to be adjusted in a manner of days, not weeks.

You must, at the very least, allow people to gain 1 - 1.5 levels per zone in Silver and Gold from the basic questing, dolmens, delves, and dungeons (on a single pass). Anything less than this and you get to learn first hand the meaning of Exodus.

I'm a HUGE fan of this game; I own 2 pre-order Imperial editions of this game. Please listen.

HomerSamson

thorntk421 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Has anyone tried mob grinding? That was the best way to level 1-50, so in theory, it should be good for veteran leveling now since we are back to XP.

As a v4 in Riften I was getting around 420-450 exp PER normal trash mob. Compare that to around 500-5000 exp per quest turn in...I'm sure you can do the math.

As v7 in a v9 zone I was getting about the same.So...

1.4Mxp/lvl / 450 = 3200 mobs to get 1 current veteran level

3200/15(top end of hours ZOS estimates it to take to level now)=213 mob kills in an hour

213/60=3.5 mobs a minute, if you can find that great a concentration of them that respawn fast enough.

I have no idea if this is viable. I for one wish they would have just told us how they expect us to *edit do this.

Their low estimate of 10 hours=5.3 mobs/minute so maybe we should be grinding public dungeons?

Ysne58

thorntk421 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Has anyone tried mob grinding? That was the best way to level 1-50, so in theory, it should be good for veteran leveling now since we are back to XP.

As a v4 in Riften I was getting around 420-450 exp PER normal trash mob. Compare that to around 500-5000 exp per quest turn in...I'm sure you can do the math.

Exactly the same being Vr2 in Deshaan.

I had reached 1.5 in Stonefalls and when I completed it I was 1/3 of the way to vr 3. I'm about 1/3rd of the way through Deshaan and have not moved past 1/2 a rank.

This is most definitely not faster.

Bars

how about 1.5 hours x5 mobs x2 half assed deves 2 find a new game

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I can't believe this. To prepare for a change that is coming some time early next year, they are making Cadwell's Silver and Gold zones insufficient to level appropriately for the encounters in each zone by questing through them, even if you do all the quests and other content in each zone.

Should I now do repetitive, boring and time consuming daily chores, grinding and PvP just to be strong enough to face the mobs in the next VR zone? Or am I expected to enjoy facing packs of VR10 mobs in the last Gold zone with a VR4-5 character until you finally get your Champion system out? Can't you see how broken this is at the moment?

ZOS, please find a better way to do the transition than punishing those of us who are questing through VR zones instead of grinding to VR14 in Craglorn. We are playing the game the way you intended, but the XP and leveling balance of that type of gameplay was just broken something awful.