Clarification regarding experience gain within Veteran Ranks

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi everyone,

We’d like to offer some clarifications about the recent conversion of experience gain to replace Veteran Points. We’ve read your concerns about whether or not it’s worthwhile to continue playing your Veteran characters. The short answer is yes. It is still worth it to continue playing your Veteran characters. You will have no significant experience loss due to the identified issues, and you won’t be wasting your time.

To put it simply, the way you gain experience at the Veteran Rank level is identical to the way you gain experience for levels 1 to 50. We’ve normalized experience contribution so it’s the same no matter what level you are. A completed quest, a monster kill, or even an opened chest contribute as much to your Veteran Rank levels as they do prior to level 50. The Veteran Points system and experience system are difficult to compare side-by-side as different events garner different amounts of each. For example, the VP gains for completing an objective were relatively high in the VP system, but are somewhat lower in the XP system. However, there are more ways to gain XP than VP.

When we introduced the changes to Veteran Ranks in Update 5, the goal we had in mind was that a typical player could gain a level after approximately 12-15 hours of play, whereas the Veteran Ranks earned by VP had a goal of about 20 hours. The problem with any kind of advancement system is that different play styles will offer different rate gains. Some players were able to advance very fast with VP, while the majority of players advanced more slowly.

Due to the elimination of Veteran Points, you may need to rethink your leveling strategy a little from what you previously used to doing to gain a Veteran Rank. For example, the XP-per-kill ratio of a boss monster is not as good as the VP-per-kill ratio was before Update 5, but the amount of XP rewarded for that boss has not changed. Among other things, this change was necessary to make leveling a more predictable experience in preparation for the Champion System, and to prevent a wide split among players. We want to keep all the ways you gain experience equivalent, and not let a certain method become more worthwhile than others.

As reported earlier this week, we have identified a couple issues surrounding experience gain:

• Monsters that are well below your level give slightly less experience than intended. This will be fixed in our next incremental patch.
• The experience that you receive at the conclusion of a particularly difficult quest can reach a limit, and thus gets capped off. While the cap is there intentionally, it was set to level 50 values rather than VR values. This is being adjusted.

Note that experience gain buffs such as the Rings of Mara and normal grouping continue to give a bonus to your experience gain, and thus a faster rise within Veteran Ranks.

We hope this explanation helps a bit, but please don't hesitate to let us know if you have any remaining questions.

WraithAzraiel

So basically, somewhere on the line, the math got messed up?

So the cap inadvertently placed on quest XP is the reason why people are going into consecutive Veteran Zones underlevel?

Are we just seeing the typical leveling slow down that was evident after Lvl 30 but on a larger scale due to it being Veteran Levels?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

This is not good enough sorry. People have gone through VR1 zone and still only gained 1/3rd of the XP needed to get to VR2......

Something is really screwed up with your math and until its fixed you will permanently hurt your characters ability to progress if you try to level up a veteran character via quests.

phreatophile

"Clarification"
So a three pack of overworld mobs giving as much, usually more, xp as a delve boss is intended? Good to know.

So for a Cadwell's silver/gold main quest for zone should give what compared to now? It would need to be a whole lot more if the stated goal of slightly faster leveling is still operative.

timidobserver

Looks like grinding basically got nerfed because boss enemies were worth more VP than XP.

Maverick827

It's pretty clear that you want people to be able to level by means other than grinding Craglorn bosses. Which is great, because that's what I think everyone wants. However, when you say:

We expect this to reduce the amount of time it takes to gain a Veteran Rank.

Everyone reads that as "We're going to use the current speed of leveling via Craglorn bosses as a base point and buff other means of leveling to be equal to (or even better than) it."

However, it mathematically takes longer to gain Veteran levels now than it did before, in all facets of gameplay (even questing).

I, for one, will not be playing until this is no longer the case. Which is a shame, because I was really looking forward to finishing my character. So I hope this is fixed soon. It doesn't sound like you guys think the current rate of XP gain is as far off as the rest of us do, though, which is concerning.

NukeAllTheThings

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Due to the elimination of Veteran Points, you may need to rethink your leveling strategy a little from what you previously used to doing to gain a Veteran Rank. For example, the XP-per-kill ratio of a boss monster is not as good as the VP-per-kill ratio was before Update 5, but the amount of XP rewarded for that boss has not changed. Among other things, this change was necessary to make leveling a more predictable experience in preparation for the Champion System, and to prevent a wide split among players. We want to keep all the ways you gain experience equivalent, and not let a certain method become more worthwhile than others.

I appreciate the explanation and more insight on the changes. But, this is exactly what I feared. If I understand this correct, you have to level VR the same way you level pre-vet. So that means you have to complete virtually all quests in every zone, plus bosses. dolmen, every dungeon and maybe find a mob farm along the way. Now there is no real alternate way to level. Previously we could focus on Cadwell's Silver & Gold plus bosses, dolmen & dungeons. We could go to Craglorn and hit different grinds if we just hated grinding quests in another faction's zones.

I'm sorry, but this leaves me quite disappointed. I ran the quests all the way through the first time around. I ran most of them the 2nd time around just to see alternative choices. 3rd & 4th time it was core requirements for the most XP then finish off in a Crag grind. I have put in over 1700 hours into playing this game and I have enjoyed it the whole time. I want to level up all my available slots to max level because I want to experiment with different classes and races. But the thought of bringing up my lowbies running fetch quests till my eyes bleed makes me re-think the amount of time and effort I want to allocate to this game in the future.

I am not going anywhere any time soon and I am willing to give it a chance once you guys finally get your math right. But the unintended consequences of this change do not look good

akalabethb14_ESO

If it becomes a bigger hassle than before to level vet levels, I can't say whether I'll jump on that treadmill or not =/

Edit: I might as well wait to play until Champ System comes out, and actually feel rewarded by playing, instead of being force fed gameplay.

divinitywithinnub18_ESO

The experience that you receive at the conclusion of a particularly difficult quest can reach a limit, and thus gets capped off. While the cap is there intentionally, it was set to level 50 values rather than VR values. This is being adjusted.

When?

Maverick827

3rdwardhobocub18_ESO wrote: »

If I understand this correct, you have to level VR the same way you level pre-vet.

I actually wish this were the case. Grinding open-world mobs is extremely fast leveling pre-vet. It's really comical how much things slow down the minute you reach VR1.

NukeAllTheThings

Maverick827 wrote: »

3rdwardhobocub18_ESO wrote: »

If I understand this correct, you have to level VR the same way you level pre-vet.

I actually wish this were the case. Grinding open-world mobs is extremely fast leveling pre-vet. It's really comical how much things slow down the minute you reach VR1.

I didn't do much of it pre-vet so I can't say one way or the other. But if that is the case, then you highlight another problem that will arise. At least the Craglorn grinding was out of the way....kind of like grinders island lol. Now the regular veteran zones will be filled with me and others looking for the fastest ways to level. Of course that will lead to a lot people being mad at us because we are grinding right in the middle of their quest chains. It will get ugly

thorntk421

So, only gaining maybe half of a VR level after clearing a vet zone(quests,delves,dungeons,bosses,POI's) is going to be the norm now? Or is that part of the exp bug? Clearing a vet zone pre 1.5 gave at least a full VR level. How is this making vet leveling faster?

Cazic

thorntk421 wrote: »

So, only gaining maybe half of a VR rank after clearing a vet zone(quests,delves,dungeons,bosses,POI's) is going to be the norm now? Or is that part of the exp bug? Clearing a vet zone pre 1.5 gave at least a full VR rank. How is this making vet leveling faster?

This

Kaaldein

I've been trying to see it from both sides, and perhaps with no veteran levels, no veteran gear levels, or anything else, then I can see 1 hour spent killing bosses, dolmens and quests etc at V1 or V14 will give the same xp, same champ point, alls good, all relative.

But... we do still have veteran levels, gear, stats per level, and so while these are still in game it is a big nerf. It remains a big nerf until they are gone.

WraithAzraiel

Normalizing/Equalizing XP given down to the lowest common denominator is not a good idea.


Somewhere along the line, the math got botched and this is the result - Veteran levels now take LONGER to gain rather than the advertised promise of quicker leveling.

Robocles

So the fact that quests capped at lvl 50 xp rates is all you see wrong? That's precious. What a vacuous response.

Oh... and thanks for bothering to post in the thread you funneled us to, you know, to keep the conversation centralized.

Appren

Seriously? You claim leveling will be faster, and then nerf leveling speed into the ground, compared to the accepted baseline leveling time (Craglorn grinding). Now it will take how much longer per level? 5 times? 10 times? Is it possible to get a chargeback from Paypal, seeing that it is only like 5 days ago that I renewed my subscription via them? (no troll intended, because this is just beyond stupid nerf)

tengri

It's very considerate of you that you removed all the "grinding" alternatives and in the same pass screwed ppl over who want to group/play together but are not within a very narrow level range.
Well, we always had that during pre level 50 zones but at least after VR you were "freed" and could go and group/play/quest where you wanted without following a very narrow predefined tunnel.
Really happy that this same **** system now haunts us all the way up to VR14. Not.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

If the "many ways" of getting XP includes discovery XP forget it as that's the same as sub50 zones so discovering everything in a VR1 zone will get you, what, one percent of a level? Doing delves, dolmens and world bosses is pointless. Quests are awful. Combine them all together and it's... awful.

I read this announcement as "we don't want the gap getting any larger so we're making all XP minimal for any kind of content that most people actually want to do" and redirecting them to Vet zone questing. Of course the gap won't get any larger if there's no way to actually earn XP!

That's a dreadful way of doing it but, worse, it doesn't even pan out that way. As above, you get little XP from anything so questing in Vet zones (the thing people do least) is just as worthless as ever. The only thing that gives half-way decent XP is overland mob grinding. So we're back to launch-day zombie grinds. Way to evolve...

TL;DR: levelling Vet ranks is slower, by far, than ever which is the opposite of what ZOS intended and stated. Own up and admit the mistake please.

thorntk421

Kaaldein wrote: »

I've been trying to see it from both sides, and perhaps with no veteran levels, no veteran gear levels, or anything else, then I can see 1 hour spent killing bosses, dolmens and quests etc at V1 or V14 will give the same xp, same champ point, alls good, all relative.

But... we do still have veteran levels, gear, stats per level, and so while these are still in game it is a big nerf. It remains a big nerf until they are gone.

This..maybe when the Champ system kicks in fully this will all be meaningless. BUT, the champ system could still be months away.

I'm almost done with Cadwell's silver and will be VR5 by the time it's finished.
If quest exp rates continue like they are I doubt I'll be VR7 by the time I clear every zone in Cadwell's gold.

HomerSamson

I can't believe it took this long to come up with this half-a**ed excuse, and that it'll take even longer to 'rectify' it.

Opening a chest or discovering a location give around the same xp as a mob kill in the wild. This isn't sufficient compensation for the fraction of xp quests, that still take the same amount of time, now give.

This is NOT faster progression.

Appren

Please have my ticket 141107-001863 answered fast, I've had enough of this, I want my money back for my 6 month sub.

WraithAzraiel

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

For example, the XP-per-kill ratio of a boss monster is not as good as the VP-per-kill ratio was before Update 5, but the amount of XP rewarded for that boss has not changed.

I'm not really understanding this statement here. What do you mean?

Can we get some mathematical examples?

Some people noting the discrepancies have given numerical examples on how many quests you would have to complete if each quest granted equal XP and the answer was astronomically unreasonable.

Update 5 was supposed to make gaining Veteran Levels less of a hassle, it has in fact, done the opposite. And the majority of the statement by Mrs Bruno has, to me, said, "Hey it was intentional, but not all of it. We're working on the parts that weren't intentional."

So when those parts are rectified can we expect to be delivered what we were promised in regards to Veteran Leveling being less of a pain?

Before Update 5 I only did the requirements of Cadwell's Silver and Gold, participated in PvP fairly regularly and also participated briefly in grinding in Craglorn (normally only to push for the last bit of required VP for the next Vet Level). And I had no problem with that. When the changes were announced for Update 5, my wife and I quested our lowbies through the main story and each zone main storyline to get to V1.

After completing the questline for V1 Stone falls, we barely gained 2% of the required XP for V2. Now I may be wrong, but that doesn't sound right to me. That doesn't sound easier to me.

I was expecting to go into the next Veteran Zones OVERlevled, not underleveled as so many people are rightfully complaining about. I can only take them at their word and their posts but some of these people have completed everything there is to complete in a zone and it's not giving them adequate experience to be at the very least the same Veteran Level as the monsters and content of the next zone.

This screams wrong to me.

Maverick827

A large problem with this, for me, is that I grinded to VR10 from Craglorn bosses before I quit. Now, coming back, I'm hardly getting any XP doing the VR1 quests, and I don't have access to the next zone until I slog through dozens of Cadwell's Silver story quests.

Can you please unlock both veteran zones at the same time? Keep the second zone VR5 - VR10, just give us the option to go there if we want to and start the quests there.

Hazadus76

My remaining question is where is my xp refund for the effort I put in and lost? Will we be refunded for your error?

tordr86b16_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Looks like grinding basically got nerfed because boss enemies were worth more VP than XP.

they nerfed boss exp into the ground, making it totally pointless to grind em. they also completely made questing pointless. in fact, grinding spellscar mobs in craglorn is now the only way of leveling up and gaining experience for skills in a sane timeframe.

that's not exactly the intention they where going for. basically, you f'd up zos. man up to your mistake and compensate ppl with 50% xp boost for one week.

AriBoh

So glad I've canceled my sub.

DigitalHype

It's a decent explanation. Not want I'd hoped to hear. But, exactly what I expected. The rate of VR level progression has been throttled for a significant number of players who have been completing the quests in VR zones, in order to "level up". There is too much wordsmithing in this explanation.

VR level progression has intentionally been throttled, in an effort to promote balance between different play styles.

I don't do the "grind group" thing, and play through all of Cadwell's precious metals. Competing the quests, world bosses, dolmens, public dungeon, in each zone. This results in a "slower rate of level progression" for people completing the quests lines, as well as the grinders.

Meaning, the change is a throttle for all. Some more than others.

WraithAzraiel

DigitalHype wrote: »

It's a decent explanation. Not want I'd hoped to hear. But, exactly what I expected. The rate of VR level progression has been throttled for a significant number of players who have been completing the quests in VR zones, in order to "level up". There is too much wordsmithing in this explanation.

VR level progression has intentionally been throttled, in an effort to promote balance between different play styles.

I don't do the "grind group" thing, and play through all of Cadwell's precious metals. Competing the quests, world bosses, dolmens, public dungeon, in each zone. This results in a "slower rate of level progression" for people completing the quests lines, as well as the grinders.

Meaning, the change is a throttle for all. Some more than others.

This is unacceptable, being that it was advertised to make gaining Veteran Levels easier and more quickly.

Who cares if Johnny and Billy have more Champion Points than Suzy? Johnny and Billy have been playing longer and harder than Suzy, ergo they deserve more.

Communism never ends well.

kijima

TLDR version:

ZOS have used Craglorn grinding as the norm for normal progression and have nerfed XP/VP gain because of it. Knee jerk reaction!

thri11co11ector

3rdwardhobocub18_ESO wrote: »

I have put in over 1700 hours into playing this game...

After some real basic math you have spent almost one third of your last 6 months playing ESO. No judgement just...holy ***.