In case anyone is wondering why AoE Caps are being removed..Here is the video

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

smacx250 wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@smacx250‌
If you had paid attention to the thread and discussions, perhaps you wouldn't be so haughty and would know what we mean by "target caps cause lag".
<snip>

I don't believe anything I said was "haughty" - I'm sorry if it came across that way. There have been many posts where people have suggested the complexity of the target cap and/or damage calculations themselves are a cause of lag, and I don't believe that to be the case. I do admit that the "madness" resulting from AoE caps may very well be a cause of lag:

I am NOT saying all this madness isn't responsible for lag - but it certainly isn't the computational complexity of determining the caps that is at issue.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Or was your reply to my post an opportunity to rehash what you posted earlier, and really had nothing to do with what I was saying?

My post was me disagreeing directly with what you were saying.
It wasn't a rehash, I actually went in more details than I ever did on the technical aspect of the issue. (for me, the lag is secundary to the bad gameplay it causes)

While you aren't wrong that calculating the caps isn't heavy in a vacuum, it is an order of complexity higher than not having them. (n to n x n)
See the part on the sorting necessary for smart healing.

It also needs to be a single process in order to get accurate results.
If there were no caps, you could treat targets as they are getting discovered rather than wait for a complete list to be formed.
And each of those individual targets would be locked individually and treated faster than if the entire list had to be locked, sorted and treated before getting released.
See the part on the deadlock.

Those two are reasons why the cap themselves are a source of lag.

Of course, perhaps the issue here is smart healing rather than target caps. But the game's only sustainably spammable heal is an aoe that is capped like damage aoes are, and wouldn't be smart if it wasn't for the target caps.

In any case, the cap impacts player behavior, which is also a matter of engineering in my opinion. It is the context in which the software has to be developped and any solution has to take that into account.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Note that if what you surmise is true, we should expect lag to increase when ZOS implements their proposed AoE target cap "removal", as for large numbers of targets it will actually increase the calculations that are required (count all targets as they are found, calculate damage modifier, apply modified damage to all the targets) over what the AoE target cap does now (RNG weight each target as it is found, keep pointers to the six top weight targets, and apply damage to only those six targets).

Also note that there is no need for sorting to process smart healing - all one needs to do is keep track of the "X" lowest health players as the targets are traversed, which is much less compute intensive than a true sort.

Agreed on the first point. That's why I'm against that change.

Their considered solution is a small step in the right direction, but it doesn't change much. It isn't really a removal of the caps.
Gameplay wise, it just changes a hard cap for a soft cap and there may still be an incentive to stack depending on how steep the fall off is.
And it doesn't really improve anything on the computation side.

On the sorting ,you're correct. There is no need to sort the entire list. Your proposed implementation would only have a small overhead for assignations, but nothing drastic.
It's still slightly higher than no caps, but it isn't a valid argument anymore.
Thanks for pointing that out.

There is still noticeable lag increased by the usage of this tactic.
Do you think it can be attributed a bit to concurency issues (since it ends up in a deadlock) or to player behavior only?

While you do have a valid point about individual calculations being lightweight, the "madness" this mechanic causes is a source of lag the servers can't handle.
It is interesting to discuss why it happens but, as I said bebore, the gameplay is the primary issue.

Your deadlock theory is an interesting one - though I wonder if it is more rightly a livelock issue. If there are multiple threads going after a common set of lockable resources, deadlock avoidance mechanisms in the code (e.g., not holding one lock while waiting for another) can actually lead to livelock. Livelock can manifest itself much in the way the video shows - long periods of time where seemingly no progress (damage) is made, but once in a while some progress (damage) occurs, and then things stop again. Basically, a number of threads are spinning around each other trying to get access to common resources, but only rarely (or never) can any one thread get all the resources it needs, as some resources are almost always held by other threads. It also tends to be harder to debug than deadlock (deadlock is usually a hard fail). But without any clue of how the server implements any of this stuff - it's pretty wild speculation!

That's actually what I meant by deadlock.
Never heard the use of livelock before, but only deadlock for issues of this kind, but it could be something "lost in translation" as english never was my primary training language.
After reading up a bit on it, it will come in handy if I ever get to communicate that to someone.

In this case, it could be both a live or a deadlock really.
Those "progress" we witness could just be from players not yet in any target list entering the zone rather than from some kind of recovery attempt.

Either ways, it is indeed just a theory, but this is the best interpretation I could make of what is hapening.

If it is that, an acceptable fix, in my opinion, is to allow a margin of error in the smart healing results by healing those that were at lowest life at cast time, even if the resolution occurs after some other damage.
Players wouldn't notice, and the server threads wouldn't need to wait on each other.

maxilaub17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxXjYjgSIc

*grin*

WRONG!!!! THAT'S NOT AN AOE CAP ISSUE, server side you are not where your client is showing and the players on your screen are out of sync with your client too. What a bunch of BS.

The only thing I feel about AOE caps is these zerg ball AOE spams have to go period they ruin real skill based PvP.

you realize i'm standing in the same spot for a good portion of the video right?

Yes, I've been in the exact same situation many times that's why I know it's a server client synch issue, and my short ranged attacks won't hit someone supposedly right next to me on my screen.

maxilaub17_ESO

CoolsHisHands wrote: »

maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »

WRONG!!!! THAT'S NOT AN AOE CAP ISSUE, server side you are not where your client is showing and the players on your screen are out of sync with your client too. What a bunch of BS.

The video is 12 minutes long of him just wandering around 50 baddies spamming impulse... Are you saying he was 12 minutes out of sync? :headscratch:

I've been in that situation for as long as the Zerg lasted and the only way to get synched again was to quite and relog back, it happened to me again just yesterday for about 7 minutes till I forced quit and relogged.

maxilaub17_ESO

maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »

CoolsHisHands wrote: »

maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »

WRONG!!!! THAT'S NOT AN AOE CAP ISSUE, server side you are not where your client is showing and the players on your screen are out of sync with your client too. What a bunch of BS.

The video is 12 minutes long of him just wandering around 50 baddies spamming impulse... Are you saying he was 12 minutes out of sync? :headscratch:

I've been in that situation for as long as the Zerg lasted and the only way to get synch'd again was to quite and relog back, it happened to me again just yesterday for about 7 minutes till I forced quit and re-logged. The length of the video is irrelevant to the problem of a server client de-synch.

DisgracefulMind

Ahhh seems to be a nightly thing. I remember yesterday at a keep a whole zerg of AD got stuck inside the magically repaired keep walls (whoever pulled off the repairs in this severe lag where nothing worked at all is amazing), and we watched them attempt to ram their way out of the keep they were stuck in. I think quite a few of us DC just stood there in awe at how hilarious the situation was. Eventually, those who could use their oil pots were able to richly farm this AD zerg into oblivion, as the rest of us still stood on the keep walls in admiration. It was so beautiful a scene it may have brought tears to some of our eyes.

But on a serious note, the night before WE got locked into a damn keep, and that wasn't so much fun LOL

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

Thrymbauld

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

I'm saying the AE already exists, but it would actually do something. If the cap was gone you already couldn't move a force en-masse through the amount of it that coats the singular breach that it usually used to move an entire army into a castle and that, if we saw the actual result of it, the different tactics it'd require to get around it would be a significant point in handling the issue.

Columba

would prefer nerfing all aoe

Wreuntzylla

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Never heard the use of livelock before, but only deadlock for issues of this kind, but it could be something "lost in translation" as english never was my primary training language.

If I understand you correctly, English is not your first language, and you do not consider yourself particularly adept with English.

If that's correct, kudos, your English is better than 99% of Americans.

Formatting, on the other hand...

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

The thing is, it won't be more spam since it will do actual damage and people will avoid those locations or die quickly in it.
The issue now, with the cap, is that depsite spamming, the survavibility of groups enable them to keep fighting without moving from their stacked up location.

Removing the caps removes the situations where spamming occur, hence reducing the spam and lag.

@Wreuntzylla‌ Haha thanks. And I try to format by logical argument spread out in paragraphs. The way I would pause in between sentences by voice.

Rune_Relic

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

The thing is, it won't be more spam since it will do actual damage and people will avoid those locations or die quickly in it.
The issue now, with the cap, is that depsite spamming, the survavibility of groups enable them to keep fighting without moving from their stacked up location.

Removing the caps removes the situations where spamming occur, hence reducing the spam and lag.

@Wreuntzylla‌ Haha thanks. And I try to format by logical argument spread out in paragraphs. The way I would pause in between sentences by voice.

Makes no sense to me....sure the fight might not last as long... but that's only because there will be far more aoe affecting far more people in action (rather than the limited people it affects now).

So maybe the lag (fight) wont last as long but IMHO that lag will be much worse. We'll see soon enough. And if the server locks up/rollbacks and crashes more often..who wins ?

And if they die quicker...well...who cares....that's what spawn camps are for right ?

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

The thing is, it won't be more spam since it will do actual damage and people will avoid those locations or die quickly in it.
The issue now, with the cap, is that depsite spamming, the survavibility of groups enable them to keep fighting without moving from their stacked up location.

Removing the caps removes the situations where spamming occur, hence reducing the spam and lag.

@Wreuntzylla‌ Haha thanks. And I try to format by logical argument spread out in paragraphs. The way I would pause in between sentences by voice.

Makes no sense to me....sure the fight might not last as long... but that's only because there will be far more aoe affecting far more people in action (rather than the limited people it affects now).

So maybe the lag (fight) wont last as long but IMHO that lag will be much worse. We'll see soon enough. And if the server locks up/rollbacks and crashes more often..who wins ?

And if they die quicker...well...who cares....that's what spawn camps are for right ?

First, there will be less aoe spam in general gameplay because there won't be stacks of people. Aoes will impact less people than now. Rather than having 6 guaranteed targets, you'd get an average of 2 to 4 at best.
If you don't have the appropriate target for an ability, then you don't use it.

Second, when people stack for lack of other alternatives, pushing through a bridge for instance, the spam will greatly be reduced.
If 10 aoes are enough where 100 would be necessary with the cap, then you have 10 times less spamming.
Even this spike of focus fire is lower than the current "normal state" with caps.

It's all fairly simple and I don't see how to phrase it so it can make sense to you.

Rune_Relic

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

The thing is, it won't be more spam since it will do actual damage and people will avoid those locations or die quickly in it.
The issue now, with the cap, is that depsite spamming, the survavibility of groups enable them to keep fighting without moving from their stacked up location.

Removing the caps removes the situations where spamming occur, hence reducing the spam and lag.

@Wreuntzylla‌ Haha thanks. And I try to format by logical argument spread out in paragraphs. The way I would pause in between sentences by voice.

Makes no sense to me....sure the fight might not last as long... but that's only because there will be far more aoe affecting far more people in action (rather than the limited people it affects now).

So maybe the lag (fight) wont last as long but IMHO that lag will be much worse. We'll see soon enough. And if the server locks up/rollbacks and crashes more often..who wins ?

And if they die quicker...well...who cares....that's what spawn camps are for right ?

First, there will be less aoe spam in general gameplay because there won't be stacks of people. Aoes will impact less people than now. Rather than having 6 guaranteed targets, you'd get an average of 2 to 4 at best.
If you don't have the appropriate target for an ability, then you don't use it.

You assume the herd mentality players will spread out instead of follow the norm. Same way they are told not to spam attack reflective scales and carry on regardless

Second, when people stack for lack of other alternatives, pushing through a bridge for instance, the spam will greatly be reduced.
If 10 aoes are enough where 100 would be necessary with the cap, then you have 10 times less spamming.
Even this spike of focus fire is lower than the current "normal state" with caps.

You assume the players are going to communicate and say "hey, stop spamming aoe we don't need so much". Reality is everyone who has aoe is going to spam the aoe on that crunch point.

It's all fairly simple and I don't see how to phrase it so it can make sense to you.

So yes... fairly simple is 100% assumption and guesswork in reality. Like I said. I will wait and see.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Honestly, the most simple solution to spamming AOE's really is removing the cap, long before looking at any actual "fix" to the abilities themselves.

The current "best" survival tactic for an AE is to be IN it, with fifty of your best friends. So fifty people, all spamming abilities, all trying to survive, and all trying to move, in the same space the size of an office cubicle. As if that isn't enough, out of that clump of fifty the game has to figure out who is gonna get hit with the AE and who isn't---and a cursory examination suggests that it isn't an entirely random choice amongst the people in that area. Some can go without being hit through the whole salvo, others get blasted to death.

Remove the cap and, yes, AE just got a whole lot badder, because instead of wiping out 1% of your little army, it's capable of wiping out the whole thing if you actually choose to stand in it. Enough so, in fact, that you intensely DO NOT want to be in an area the size of a cubicle with fifty of your best friends. This suddenly means that all those localized calculations are spread out, the timing of them is spread out, and the targets are spread out. Fights become more granular and "manageable", at least on a server and individual player level.

What DOES become more difficult is a keep take. Odds are good that a single breach isn't going to be the norm anymore because a single breach can simply be coated in AE's and pinned down. In the cases of an enormous defense force, it's conceivable that half the wall will have to come down before actual entry can be made to happen, rather than pounding away at a singular breach until the blob "blobs up" enough to soak the AE into nonexistence. Sounds like fun, to be honest.

So if what I read is what you meant then you're saying even more aoe will be existing in one place(the area of a keep) so removing the aoe caps and causing more peopleasant to spam them at breaches is gonna reduce the lag how? The calculations obviously grind the server to a halt as is so increasing them as rune_relic pointed out will only magnify the problem. Yes zerg balling is an issue no removing aoe caps is not going to be a magical fix all that most people seem to think it will be.

The thing is, it won't be more spam since it will do actual damage and people will avoid those locations or die quickly in it.
The issue now, with the cap, is that depsite spamming, the survavibility of groups enable them to keep fighting without moving from their stacked up location.

Removing the caps removes the situations where spamming occur, hence reducing the spam and lag.

@Wreuntzylla‌ Haha thanks. And I try to format by logical argument spread out in paragraphs. The way I would pause in between sentences by voice.

Makes no sense to me....sure the fight might not last as long... but that's only because there will be far more aoe affecting far more people in action (rather than the limited people it affects now).

So maybe the lag (fight) wont last as long but IMHO that lag will be much worse. We'll see soon enough. And if the server locks up/rollbacks and crashes more often..who wins ?

And if they die quicker...well...who cares....that's what spawn camps are for right ?

First, there will be less aoe spam in general gameplay because there won't be stacks of people. Aoes will impact less people than now. Rather than having 6 guaranteed targets, you'd get an average of 2 to 4 at best.
If you don't have the appropriate target for an ability, then you don't use it.

You assume the herd mentality players will spread out instead of follow the norm. Same way they are told not to spam attack reflective scales and carry on regardless

Second, when people stack for lack of other alternatives, pushing through a bridge for instance, the spam will greatly be reduced.
If 10 aoes are enough where 100 would be necessary with the cap, then you have 10 times less spamming.
Even this spike of focus fire is lower than the current "normal state" with caps.

You assume the players are going to communicate and say "hey, stop spamming aoe we don't need so much". Reality is everyone who has aoe is going to spam the aoe on that crunch point.

It's all fairly simple and I don't see how to phrase it so it can make sense to you.

So yes... fairly simple is 100% assumption and guesswork in reality. Like I said. I will wait and see.

Wait and see all you want, it isn't guess work at all.

First, we've seen the game "without" aoe target caps. Either from launch before the reveal or from backwater campaigns where players didn't start stacking until much later.
We already know how it will turn out.
There are in this very thread videos from launch that illustrate how the game was played.

Second, even if we had not witnessed the player behaviors without caps, it is easy to anticipate with logical reasoning and basic math.

For instance, the average hits to kill a character is around 10. Without caps, a group needs 10 hits no matter how large it is.
With caps it takes 10 x size / cap
So a standard group of 24 takes at best 40 aoe attacks rather than 10. Possibly more as this would be the "luckiest" situation where each aoe hits the same previous 6 targets.
Add smart healing to the mix and you get an even higher number.
That's how caps cause spam and how removing them reduces it.

Then, as to why aoe attacks become less desirable.
Now, you have 6 guaranteed targets because you are aiming from one stack to another.
But in spread out fights, player density and the radius of abilities become relevant again.
A fairly large fight could see up to 40 players in a 20m radius, and ranged aoes go from 3m to 6m.
That means 2 target to 3.6 targets.
And that's the high end, results obtained in a target rich environment.
Aoes simply don't hit many targets when the game is played without caps, so single target abilities become much more dedirable and frequent.

In short, no, aoes won't be "many more" and they won't be hitting "many more" targets.
The exact opposite of what you said a couple comments back, which prompted my responses.

Rune_Relic

The only way you are going to kill them quicker is by more hits per second.
You cant kill more people quicker without hitting more people and doing more calcs (That is after all the whole point of removing the cap so you can hit more than 6 people which means more than 6 calcs and all the code that goes with it).
ie more lag. Especially if the server is struggling now.

Like I said ....I will wait and see.

Lord_Draevan

I'm confused by the title of the thread, I was under the impression ZOS said they weren't going to remove AoE caps... did I miss an announcement or something?

Davadin

They're removing it.

Lord_Draevan

Davadin wrote: »

They're removing it.

Source? I really want this to be true...

smacx250

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

They're removing it.

Source? I really want this to be true...

Check the OP of this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134382/info-from-zos-regarding-aoe-target-cap

The solution ZOS is currently considering involves healing remaining capped at 6 targets, but AoE damage being unlimited in the number of targets it can affect, but subjecting that damage to a damage falloff effect where as an AoE hits more and more targets the damage dealt to additional targets decreases by some scaled percentage.

Lord_Draevan

smacx250 wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

They're removing it.

Source? I really want this to be true...

Check the OP of this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134382/info-from-zos-regarding-aoe-target-cap

The solution ZOS is currently considering involves healing remaining capped at 6 targets, but AoE damage being unlimited in the number of targets it can affect, but subjecting that damage to a damage falloff effect where as an AoE hits more and more targets the damage dealt to additional targets decreases by some scaled percentage.

That sounds like a practical solution. I hope it gets implemented soon. The healing part will definitely ruin the impulse-zergs too.

Rune_Relic

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

They're removing it.

Source? I really want this to be true...

Check the OP of this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134382/info-from-zos-regarding-aoe-target-cap

The solution ZOS is currently considering involves healing remaining capped at 6 targets, but AoE damage being unlimited in the number of targets it can affect, but subjecting that damage to a damage falloff effect where as an AoE hits more and more targets the damage dealt to additional targets decreases by some scaled percentage.

That sounds like a practical solution. I hope it gets implemented soon. The healing part will definitely ruin the impulse-zergs too.

There is no penalty for death. Camps make TTK irrelevant. Just means you will have more and more people rezzing and building ultimate as soon as they get out the gate.

What is the actual penalty to zerg balls for dying quicker ?

Flluffy bunny already took the AD campaign which was only possible because he knew that would come en-masse. So limiting AP to the opposition isnt exactly on the not to do list. Many players absolutely bank on it and build for it.

[Yes...I am playing devils advocate]

Turelus

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i dont understand how zenimax can consider this type of spamming that happens constantly in cryodiil with the fire staffs and all the area of effect spamming to be considered fun and pvp at all.

Didn't you know? Those trains of Impulse spam ARE the ZOS members, it's the only way to could beat us at their own game. :P *dons his tinfoil hat*

Cherryblossom

Komma wrote: »

I see people saying its the most efficient way to win...That didn't look efficient at all. It looked like a bunch of clowns who cause the lag and complain to zenimax that there is lag. If there were no lag I could see the argument for aoe caps being removed. They don't force you to fight pvp like you fight pve. That is your choice and when they remove aoe caps folks will find the next non skill way of playing.

Firstly, there is AOE in the game, if your attacking a large group of people you would have to be a moron to not use it!
Lag is a Zenimax issue, the lag we get in PVP is not purely from AOE, this can happen in normal 1v1.
If the AOE Cap was removed then this would simply be a battle of numbers, if oneside has more people they will always win. With the current CAP even large groups can be wiped by a small intelligent group.
The actual issue in PVP is LAG, if Zenimax cure this there will be better fights. And yes there will always be Zergs as we can group up.

Cherryblossom

For instance, the average hits to kill a character is around 10. Without caps, a group needs 10 hits no matter how large it is.
With caps it takes 10 x size / cap
So a standard group of 24 takes at best 40 aoe attacks rather than 10. Possibly more as this would be the "luckiest" situation where each aoe hits the same previous 6 targets.
.

So with the change every one can be wiped by just a group of 10 who use the same attack at the same time, I can see BOT trains coming back!

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Rune_Relic‌
Do you even read what people take time to type to you?
I addressed your answer in my post just above yours.

Even in the rare case where a group is stacked, the spike of one focus fire is inferior to the ongoing sustained activity of the stacking spam we have currently. The real killer is smart healing spamming, and the longer you survive, the more you spam it.
But this will be a rare case as most fights don't occur in choke points.
In a spread out formation you barely hit 4 targets which is less than the caps.
it will both remove most situations where you would spam, and make those that remain cost less than with caps.

Now on to your comment about ttk and camps:
I'm not sure you realize the survivability an individual in a stacking group has compared to what it should have. You either get wiped or you don't lose many members.
It's not just about ttk, but about attrition. If you have members respawning more regulary, then you increase the need for camps.
Removing the stacking also reduces by a lot the Ap gains of larger groups, which in the end also reduces their ability to maintain camps.
This is a two pronged indirect nerf to forward camps usage.

@Cherryblossom‌
Your two consecutive comments contradict each other.
How can it be a numbers game and at the same time you fear that 10 people can wipe an other group in one attack?

Truth is, what we have now is a number game. The more you are, the more you benefit from stacking. In addition, stacking makes it easy to coordinate larger groups and using very limited tactics: follow crown, spam impulse and grand healing. This is bot train material right here.

Remove aoe caps, and stacking is non viable. Larger groups risk more than smaller ones but still have the advantage in damage output and regen.
Smaller groups will still loose but they'll have a chance to make an impact rather than just fight against the target cap. Causing attrition and forcing the large group to weaken over time.
If you dislike number games, you should be in favor of the target cap removal.

And finally, no, large groups will never get wiped by only 10 attacks.
Unless they are incredibly stupid, groups won't stack anymore so focus fires, while strong, won't end a fight instantly.
Also, the focus fire tools will be ranged attacks, and those cannot be botted and require a higher level of skill and coordination than pbaoes or instant cast single target.

Cherryblossom

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Cherryblossom‌
Your two consecutive comments contradict each other.
How can it be a numbers game and at the same time you fear that 10 people can wipe an other group in one attack?

Truth is, what we have now is a number game. The more you are, the more you benefit from stacking. In addition, stacking makes it easy to coordinate larger groups and using very limited tactics: follow crown, spam impulse and grand healing. This is bot train material right here.

I do not believe I contradicted myself, I argued that whilst we had the CAP a Smaller well organised group can currently wipe a larger group (especially the train you describe). With no AOE CAP the Larger group will always win!
My second comment was based on someones assessment that it takes 10 impulse to kill someone, so theoretically 10 similultaneous impulses is an automatic kill of all in range! It doesn't take a bot that was me being sarcastic, but a large group will put out enough damage that they can still keep grouped as everything they come in contact with, will die before they can make any dent.

With the extra changes to Oil as well, stoping a large group will be nigh on impossible

Xsorus

Cherryblossom wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Cherryblossom‌
Your two consecutive comments contradict each other.
How can it be a numbers game and at the same time you fear that 10 people can wipe an other group in one attack?

Truth is, what we have now is a number game. The more you are, the more you benefit from stacking. In addition, stacking makes it easy to coordinate larger groups and using very limited tactics: follow crown, spam impulse and grand healing. This is bot train material right here.

I do not believe I contradicted myself, I argued that whilst we had the CAP a Smaller well organised group can currently wipe a larger group (especially the train you describe). With no AOE CAP the Larger group will always win!
My second comment was based on someones assessment that it takes 10 impulse to kill someone, so theoretically 10 similultaneous impulses is an automatic kill of all in range! It doesn't take a bot that was me being sarcastic, but a large group will put out enough damage that they can still keep grouped as everything they come in contact with, will die before they can make any dent.

With the extra changes to Oil as well, stoping a large group will be nigh on impossible

How have you not been laughed off the forum yet?

You realize we have countless games that show this to be the exact opposite?

With no AOE cap in place the larger group will not always win..It'll be which ever group gets the first strike usually.

Cherryblossom

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

How have you not been laughed off the forum yet?

You realize we have countless games that show this to be the exact opposite?

With no AOE cap in place the larger group will not always win..It'll be which ever group gets the first strike usually.

O my, a group of 11 people can kill a group of 24 because they cast the same spell at the exact time, it's unlikely they will as they will probably have a least 2 healers so dropping to this to 9 attacking. They are also unlikely to cast all at the same time but be staggered. Where as the group of 24 will have about 5 healers and while their attacks will also be staggered they are more likely to have more people casting at the same time and also have more heals!

Currently I have been in PVP with a group of normally about12 and we successfully wipe much larger Zergs sometime 3 times the size, due to better tactics. Currently IMO removing the AOE Cap or adding diminishing returns favours the Larger Groups.
I fully understand the issue of the random nature of the current AOE damage distribution, but I do not believe removing the AOE Cap will solve the Large Zerg issue

And truly what games have 50 a side battles?

I will assume you were laughing at yourself!

Rune_Relic

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Rune_Relic‌
Do you even read what people take time to type to you?
I addressed your answer in my post just above yours.

Even in the rare case where a group is stacked, the spike of one focus fire is inferior to the ongoing sustained activity of the stacking spam we have currently. The real killer is smart healing spamming, and the longer you survive, the more you spam it.
But this will be a rare case as most fights don't occur in choke points.
In a spread out formation you barely hit 4 targets which is less than the caps.
it will both remove most situations where you would spam, and make those that remain cost less than with caps.

Now on to your comment about ttk and camps:
I'm not sure you realize the survivability an individual in a stacking group has compared to what it should have. You either get wiped or you don't lose many members.
It's not just about ttk, but about attrition. If you have members respawning more regulary, then you increase the need for camps.
Removing the stacking also reduces by a lot the Ap gains of larger groups, which in the end also reduces their ability to maintain camps.
This is a two pronged indirect nerf to forward camps usage.

I read what you said. I just disagree with it. Simple as that.
That's why there was no point replying directly to you as we will just go around in circles.
We will have to agree to disagree.

1. This is not any other game. This is ESO with unique code. It is not WOW DAoC LoTRO GW2 so saying these games blah blah is pointless and a strawman. Even using BETA is irrelevant as the caps were in place...regardless of whether you believe this impacted on zergballs or not (conjecture). The customer base has also probably changed a great deal since then. Make a poll asking zergballers if they give a crap about the cap changes and prove your point.

2. No one has access to ESO source code to make an accurate assessment of the likely results. So saying this is how the code behaves and putting that forward as an argument is nothing more than a guess. Show me the ESO source code and I will listen.

3. No one knows how people will react in the future....you don't have a crystal ball and if you did I would be even less likely to listen. Time travel still isn't viable yet either.

4. You put out as fact your personal opinion when it is not a given fact....merely an opinion that is plausible to you. Your own truth if you like.

And likewise I have put out my own version of what I think is likely to happen. You disagree... that's fine.

Lfehova

I just briefly read over this thread.

Has the logical cause and solution been discussed? Or did I just miss it.

The reason the server goofs up like it does when tons of people are spamming skills in one area, is the calculations of which 6 people the skill is going to hit.

For example, if you do some testing, there are many skills that do not get locked up.

The obvious solution is removing aoe caps completely so it removes all those calculations. The calculations are not heavy when it simply decides, ok, you're within the area of aoe damage, you lose 400 health. It gets heavy when it says ok, there's 80 people next to you, now let's calculate your chance of getting hit compared to others, and decide who gets hit. Or even worse in terms of smart heals, let's compare your health to all of your 80 allies, and take the lowest health to be hit by the heal in addition to rng picking who takes damage. If aoe caps were removed, it would bring the server speeds back to where they were before they implemented these PoS aoe caps.