Info from ZOS regarding AOE target cap

sean.plackerb14_ESO

AoE Target Cap Updates

Eric recognized the current meta of stacking in AoE and distributing damage throughout your group. This isn’t the gameplay ZOS wants, they want large groups of abilities to be vulnerable to AoE and afraid of AoE. Some important concerns to consider with increasing the AoE cap are:

• Effect on Ultimate generation
  
• Application of secondary effects (stuns, CCs)
  
• Additional server load
  
• Effects on PvE balance
  
• The solution ZOS is currently considering involves healing remaining capped at 6 targets, but AoE damage being unlimited in the number of targets it can affect, but subjecting that damage to a damage falloff effect where as an AoE hits more and more targets the damage dealt to additional targets decreases by some scaled percentage.

From the ESO guild summit.

tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit-day2/

Samadhi

Glad to read that they recognize that AoE caps are turning PvP gameplay into trash full of blobs.
Hoping the proposed changes will be sufficient to backpedal some of the damage that AoE caps have done to this game since they were announced.

Have to see how things pan out once the changes are actually implemented, but very good to know steps are being taken in the right direction. It is also very good to know that they acknowledge how real and damaging the effect of the curent AoE cap system is.

Make us proud ZOS.

ZOS_GinaBruno

sean.plackerb14_ESO wrote: »

*sigh* typo in title I know.

FIFY

Columba

So how will this fix impulse monkey spam?

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

The dps falloff was something suggested several weeks back but some of the purists kept bawling. Yes ESO skills involve spamming but there should be a flexible rotation. You should still be able to spam aoe and use other skills to whittle down the crowd as well as armor/shield effects for survival.

Cody

Glad to see they are at least attempting to fix it. That alone has restored much of my faith in them.

TheBull

Impressive work ZOS.

driosketch

Columba wrote: »

So how will this fix impulse monkey spam?

It nudges the meta just a little off balance. So other players would stand back and whittle the blob down from afar with range AoE. This has a psychological effect on the blob players. Where before they would either take no damage or recieve a heal instantly from the group healer, now they are constantly taking damage, and receiving no healing until they drop into the blob's bottom six. This makes them not want to stand in the AoE, so players start spreading out. Now the meta is to spread out more, so impulse is going to be less effective to use being a player based AoE without a turtling mechanic to roll over to enemy players.

Or that's my guess anyways. Players are clever, and something else unexpected and unintended may take it's place.

Zintair

Granted this is merely on paper. But there still seems to be the chance to foster this type of grouping because regardless the way to take the LEAST amount of damage is to have the MOST people around you.

It may however make them much more susceptible to being wiped.

My main fear is it is already a very fast TTK. This really increases that. I just don't think the solution is in AoE Caps. The combat system itself is a grouping of 95% instant cast abilities with no cooldowns.

Definitely hope these ideas improve things I just am not convinced yet.

synnerman

I want to know WHEN???? Not this is what we are considering .

Phinix1

Eh. I still think a much better solution would be to reduce the damage AOE does the more you stack it. That way you don't have to worry about ultimate generation or balancing problems as nothing changes under normal circumstances.

But if you rely on blobbing AOE to win, you end up doing next to no damage and certainly less than if you were to split it up with actual skilled and single-target combat.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Columba wrote: »

So how will this fix impulse monkey spam?

In another section they discussed weapon damage and stated that they were tuning most weapon abilities up to ones like Impulse. Their example was Cleave is going to get a damage buff to make it competitive with Impulse.

So we should be seeing more viable weapon abilities that are just as damaging to groups.

Found the quote from Tamrielfoundry on Cleave...
http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit-day2/

Two-Handed

Cleave – increased the damage and radius of Cleave to be more competitive with Impulse

Xsorus

Columba wrote: »

So how will this fix impulse monkey spam?

Well impulse it won't fix people using it on large stacks of people...because its an AoE and that's generally when ya want to use them..

It will however make stacking up and running in giant zerg balls a bloody death sentence and you'll see groups moving towards more sneaking up on large groups instead of just charging directly at them.

Sasky

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Eh. I still think a much better solution would be to reduce the damage AOE does the more you stack it. That way you don't have to worry about ultimate generation or balancing problems as nothing changes under normal circumstances.

Look at how much ultimate sorcs were able to get from streak when it was uncapped for ultimate generation. Now consider carve (2h) -- if you hit 20 people with that, not counting crits and damage you'll get 60 ultimate.

Look at drain power (either morph) -- cast that once in a blob and your weapon damage will be hardcapped. Now imagine a batswarm with no target limit based on hardcapped weapon damage.

The point is that he makes well is there's a lot of additional changes beyond just uncapping damage.

Xsorus

Sasky wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Eh. I still think a much better solution would be to reduce the damage AOE does the more you stack it. That way you don't have to worry about ultimate generation or balancing problems as nothing changes under normal circumstances.

Look at how much ultimate sorcs were able to get from streak when it was uncapped for ultimate generation. Now consider carve (2h) -- if you hit 20 people with that, not counting crits and damage you'll get 60 ultimate.

Look at drain power (either morph) -- cast that once in a blob and your weapon damage will be hardcapped. Now imagine a batswarm with no target limit based on hardcapped weapon damage.

The point is that he makes well is there's a lot of additional changes beyond just uncapping damage.

Abilities right now are suppose to be capped in the amount of ultimate they give.. so if ya hit 20 people with Carve or 6 you'd only get 15 Ultimate Total (which is suppose to be the max ya get)

eliisra

Happy they're working on a solution to stop the lame-trains and the hiding behind numbers. About time, really.

But of course, I'm also worried about the TTK or that heals cant keep up. Will we explode even faster now?

Issue number 2 is also a bit worrying, the extra load of CC that comes without target caps and without cool-downs. Talons spamming DK's with infinite targets...I would need 10k stamina to roll out of that lol.

Xsorus

eliisra wrote: »

Happy they're working on a solution to stop the lame-trains and the hiding behind numbers. About time, really.

But of course, I'm also worried about the TTK or that heals cant keep up. Will we explode even faster now?

Issue number 2 is also a bit worrying, the extra load of CC that comes without target caps and without cool-downs. Talons spamming DK's with infinite targets...I would need 10k stamina to roll out of that lol.

Technically no..Unless you're specifically stacking with more then 6 people or running in a zerg ball you wouldn't notice this change. Again if its 12 people AoEing on top of you..you're going to take all that damage right now, or if the cap was 100...That is not going to change.

All this change to the cap insures if 12 or 24 people are stacking...IF you decide to run in an AoE. you're not going to ignore half of them every time you AoE.

Huntler

Maybe this is because I'm a healer but if you change aoe caps it should be for both damage and heals... not just one... thats kinda silly.

Phinix1

Sasky wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Eh. I still think a much better solution would be to reduce the damage AOE does the more you stack it. That way you don't have to worry about ultimate generation or balancing problems as nothing changes under normal circumstances.

Look at how much ultimate sorcs were able to get from streak when it was uncapped for ultimate generation. Now consider carve (2h) -- if you hit 20 people with that, not counting crits and damage you'll get 60 ultimate.

Look at drain power (either morph) -- cast that once in a blob and your weapon damage will be hardcapped. Now imagine a batswarm with no target limit based on hardcapped weapon damage.

The point is that he makes well is there's a lot of additional changes beyond just uncapping damage.

I think you misread me, friend. I am NOT in favor of removing AOE caps.

What I was saying is that a better solution would be to make AOE do less damage the more you stack it. So, if 15 people are spamming Impulse, the damage of each in the overlap zone would be a fraction of what a single impulse by itself would do, so that the total effect of getting hit by 15 Impulses would be the damage of like maybe 2 or 3.

No more blobbing = problem solved.

æxæ

what's really funny about your game, zenimax, everyone is always complaining about skills when it's only a game after all. what are we doing here, turning this into a profession for us gamers to tell you how to design your game? strange company you have. must resist resubbing.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Finaly, this is a step in the right direction.
We'll see how it is implemented. BUT let's take this as a victory!

I just hope that the scalling isn't too steep. If it is, then we would just have a softcap instead of a hardcap and stacking would still be prevalent.
I'd rather not have any limitation, or if there are, be individualy tailored to the "lore" of each ability.
If it would take too much manpower for them, distance based drop off would be a better "blanket change" as it adds "linear skill tests" for aiming and dodging.

Did they ever touch on why they implemented a target cap in the first place?
I still don't understand why they are so timid regarding these abilities.

Nidwin

I'm against removing AOE caps as it brings more issues opposed to resolve the main problem.

Anyway.
If [snip] are so obsessed by removing the AOE cap, let's do it. Go for it ZOS. I'm always up for a good laugh. It's only a game after all.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

And what is the main problem according to you?
And what "issues" does it bring?

Removing aoe caps will not fix everything, immovable/annulement still need to be addressed for instance, but it is a definite step in the right direction.
It will remove a sizeable hindrance to the skill ceiling of this game

A lot of the current meta game is auxiliary to target caps and only exist because of them. It causes a lot of mandatory actions, such as stacking, but also reserved skill slots for otherwise mundane/situational abilities:
- Immovable, that I've mentionned earlier, is necessary because stacking is necessary, you don't want your group to be separated so CC immunity is more crucial than it should be.
- Same for impulse which has great synergie in moving as a ball, the leader doesn't need to ask for focus fire, he just walks there.
- Purge and barrier are also stronger due to being less situational, as they counter the counters of stacking.

I suspect that the meta game will revert to its "normal" state and see much more variety in abilities used. Or at the very least see people spread out and the various ability range work as designed. (melee/ranged/healer frontlines)

Not only that, but it will definitely improve prime time performances for the more popular campaigns.

Sanct16

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I think you misread me, friend. I am NOT in favor of removing AOE caps.

What I was saying is that a better solution would be to make AOE do less damage the more you stack it. So, if 15 people are spamming Impulse, the damage of each in the overlap zone would be a fraction of what a single impulse by itself would do, so that the total effect of getting hit by 15 Impulses would be the damage of like maybe 2 or 3.

No more blobbing = problem solved.

R.I.P. server performance.

Huntler wrote: »

Maybe this is because I'm a healer but if you change aoe caps it should be for both damage and heals... not just one... thats kinda silly.

If they would remove the cap for heals there wouldn't be any changes to aoe blobs because both, damage and heal would be increased to negate each other.

By only increasing the damage, stacking will be less effective. And thats, what the change is intended to do.

Lfehova

Sanct16 wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I think you misread me, friend. I am NOT in favor of removing AOE caps.

What I was saying is that a better solution would be to make AOE do less damage the more you stack it. So, if 15 people are spamming Impulse, the damage of each in the overlap zone would be a fraction of what a single impulse by itself would do, so that the total effect of getting hit by 15 Impulses would be the damage of like maybe 2 or 3.

No more blobbing = problem solved.

R.I.P. server performance.

Huntler wrote: »

Maybe this is because I'm a healer but if you change aoe caps it should be for both damage and heals... not just one... thats kinda silly.

If they would remove the cap for heals there wouldn't be any changes to aoe blobs because both, damage and heal would be increased to negate each other.

By only increasing the damage, stacking will be less effective. And thats, what the change is intended to do.

Gj sanct. You nailed it.

Removing aoe caps for dmg will inadvertently discourage AOE blobbing because the smaller group will be able to heal more efficiently since they have less people taking dmg. But the zerg will have way more people taking dmg, and their healers have an AOE cap on heals, will run out of magicka first. There's the issue of numbers, and the zerg having just a pure higher number of impulse rings coming out. That will also be solved, but I won't share how, because I'm hoping my guild and I can use that to our advantage if and when AOE caps are changed.

I fully support removing AOE caps and forcing smart group play and positioning.

Agrippa_Invisus

I, too, and most of my guild as well support removing AOE caps from this game.

Give us PVP more like DAoC and less like GW2.

One is remembered as a classic, with fond memories and deep nostalgia.

The other.... not so much.

Kosar

wow this is insulting.

that proposed AoE change assumes the PvP players stand in tight groups of 100 to get mowed down by the spammers.

we already DO have healers, casters, and archers stand at max range.
the melee and close combat heavies get closer and get mowed down 6 at time in sets of 6-20. then the AoE spammers don't have to do anything but chase down the range guys a few at a time.

good job listening to the big guilds that already abuse your mechanics and making it more friendly for them to kill the close combatants faster. now they can abuse your mechanics twice as fast once this is implemented.

Lfehova

effinshiddy wrote: »

wow this is insulting.

that proposed AoE change assumes the PvP players stand in tight groups of 100 to get mowed down by the spammers.

we already DO have healers, casters, and archers stand at max range.
the melee and close combat heavies get closer and get mowed down 6 at time in sets of 6-20. then the AoE spammers don't have to do anything but chase down the range guys a few at a time.

good job listening to the big guilds that already abuse your mechanics and making it more friendly for them to kill the close combatants faster. now they can abuse your mechanics twice as fast once this is implemented.

You do realize the reason you're so ineffective and breaking up the large guilds from range is because of AOE caps right?

Imagine if your one arrow volley, hit all 40 of them. It cost you 250 stamina. But it costs their one healer, healing all 40, like 6 casts to heal everyone, which is like 1200 Magicka. Extrapolate that to you and your 5 friends, vs their 6 healers.

You will drain out their Magicka before you run out of resources, giving you a chance to kill them. If you guys spread out and position well, they will have to impulse one person at a time, and they'll be drained of offensive Magicka as well.

removing AOE caps is a huge boost to smaller groups/fuilds. No Mercy fully supports this as a guild so we can wipe the Zerg blob guilds more efficiently.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Maybe this is because I'm a healer but if you change aoe caps it should be for both damage and heals... not just one... thats kinda silly.

If they would remove the cap for heals there wouldn't be any changes to aoe blobs because both, damage and heal would be increased to negate each other.

By only increasing the damage, stacking will be less effective. And thats, what the change is intended to do.

Well, honestly, I've run the numbers and even without caps, heals can neither sustain nor burst like damage abilities can.
So removing caps for everything would indeed remove the stacking.

But in the context of the proposed change, where stacking will offer damage mitigation rather than a dodge chance, I agree that heals may need to remain caped depending on how steep the fall off is.

I'd rather they just remove both caps though, as it is what would be the healthiest solution for the game.

Kosar

we are not ineffective but thanks.

2nd, the real guilds running the cohesive groupings all heal themselves (whether with main or 2nd bar heals) while running around and the cap of healing 6 means nothing when 6 of 6, 12 of 12, or 24 of 24 guys can all throw heals.

so when you can hit 6 guys for 2000 total or spread that 2000 to 20 guys and do the same amount of damage and all 6 or 20 of them toss their heals as they go... who do you think really comes out on top in that situation? do the math.

in theory this stuff sounds great and yet it never works out. so again, it will change nothing.

Agrippa_Invisus

effinshiddy wrote: »

we are not ineffective but thanks.

2nd, the real guilds running the cohesive groupings all heal themselves (whether with main or 2nd bar heals) while running around and the cap of healing 6 means nothing when 6 of 6, 12 of 12, or 24 of 24 guys can all throw heals.

so when you can hit 6 guys for 2000 total or spread that 2000 to 20 guys and do the same amount of damage and all 6 or 20 of them toss their heals as they go... who do you think really comes out on top in that situation? do the math.

in theory this stuff sounds great and yet it never works out. so again, it will change nothing.

You... never played DAoC did you? Or maybe Warhammer Online during the height of Bright Wizard power?