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In case anyone is wondering why AoE Caps are being removed..Here is the video
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »So you thinking removing aoe caps will make people less likely to use aoe ?
Genuine question.
Yes.
I explained it in my previous post, and I assume that's what you were reacting too. Both on paper and through experience, this is the logical conclusion.
See, when a group is spread out, it has a much lesser player density so aoes with their limited radius can only hit a smaller subset of players, and require much more effort to aim.
Not having 6 guaranteed targets to hit really hinders the efficiency of AoE abilities.
In comparison, single target abilities are more sustainable and require much less effort to use. They also have a longer range when they are ranged.
They can be used more effectively by group leaders. Calling a focus fire on a character is easier that calling it on an area.
(Even though you could use characters as "markers")
Single damage abilities are also much more reliable when fighting against a spread out group as there are less chances that the targeting jumps to another character. A drastic change compared to nowadays blur.
These factors can also be observed in game.
If you're lucky enough to be in a large fight(40v40) where neither group are aware of the target cap, you'd witness my arguments in action.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
The game is otherwise well designed, I have been in battles where both sides didn't know about the caps, and it worked great. Without target caps, you can see other tactics appearing and getting used, natural line of skrimage and melee/range/healer lines forming organically.
I look forward to the future without caps.
The lowbie campaign has mostly non-blob fights when it is busy. Most people do not have the aoe to be capable to get a large enough group together so it turns into skirmishes etc. It actually is exceedingly fun and tends to work really well.
It used to be the same on backwaters campaigns like haderus.
Aoe availability isn't really a factor, but just general noobitude.
This is the best of what the game has to offer.
But why would I spread out without aoe caps ?
Why would I not simply add more healers to soak up the damage and make the lag even worse ?Edited by Rune_Relic on October 3, 2014 9:08PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »So you thinking removing aoe caps will make people less likely to use aoe ?
Genuine question.
Yes.
I explained it in my previous post, and I assume that's what you were reacting too. Both on paper and through experience, this is the logical conclusion.
See, when a group is spread out, it has a much lesser player density so aoes with their limited radius can only hit a smaller subset of players, and require much more effort to aim.
Not having 6 guaranteed targets to hit really hinders the efficiency of AoE abilities.
In comparison, single target abilities are more sustainable and require much less effort to use. They also have a longer range when they are ranged.
They can be used more effectively by group leaders. Calling a focus fire on a character is easier that calling it on an area.
(Even though you could use characters as "markers")
Single damage abilities are also much more reliable when fighting against a spread out group as there are less chances that the targeting jumps to another character. A drastic change compared to nowadays blur.
These factors can also be observed in game.
If you're lucky enough to be in a large fight(40v40) where neither group are aware of the target cap, you'd witness my arguments in action.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
The game is otherwise well designed, I have been in battles where both sides didn't know about the caps, and it worked great. Without target caps, you can see other tactics appearing and getting used, natural line of skrimage and melee/range/healer lines forming organically.
I look forward to the future without caps.
The lowbie campaign has mostly non-blob fights when it is busy. Most people do not have the aoe to be capable to get a large enough group together so it turns into skirmishes etc. It actually is exceedingly fun and tends to work really well.
It used to be the same on backwaters campaigns like haderus.
Aoe availability isn't really a factor, but just general noobitude.
This is the best of what the game has to offer.
But why would I spread out without aoe caps ?
Why would I not simply add more healers to soak up the damage and make the lag even worse ?
Because there is no way in hell you're going to be able to heal that much damage no matter how many healers ya got... you get 1 or 2 meatballs right now, even with aoe caps and you hurt stacks pretty heavilyhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Rune_Relic wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »So you thinking removing aoe caps will make people less likely to use aoe ?
Genuine question.
Yes.
I explained it in my previous post, and I assume that's what you were reacting too. Both on paper and through experience, this is the logical conclusion.
See, when a group is spread out, it has a much lesser player density so aoes with their limited radius can only hit a smaller subset of players, and require much more effort to aim.
Not having 6 guaranteed targets to hit really hinders the efficiency of AoE abilities.
In comparison, single target abilities are more sustainable and require much less effort to use. They also have a longer range when they are ranged.
They can be used more effectively by group leaders. Calling a focus fire on a character is easier that calling it on an area.
(Even though you could use characters as "markers")
Single damage abilities are also much more reliable when fighting against a spread out group as there are less chances that the targeting jumps to another character. A drastic change compared to nowadays blur.
These factors can also be observed in game.
If you're lucky enough to be in a large fight(40v40) where neither group are aware of the target cap, you'd witness my arguments in action.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
The game is otherwise well designed, I have been in battles where both sides didn't know about the caps, and it worked great. Without target caps, you can see other tactics appearing and getting used, natural line of skrimage and melee/range/healer lines forming organically.
I look forward to the future without caps.
The lowbie campaign has mostly non-blob fights when it is busy. Most people do not have the aoe to be capable to get a large enough group together so it turns into skirmishes etc. It actually is exceedingly fun and tends to work really well.
It used to be the same on backwaters campaigns like haderus.
Aoe availability isn't really a factor, but just general noobitude.
This is the best of what the game has to offer.
But why would I spread out without aoe caps ?
Why would I not simply add more healers to soak up the damage and make the lag even worse ?
First, because with no aoe caps, you can get one shotted by only 10 people.
In that context, no healer can be used to soak up the damage, they wouldn't even have the time to react.
Second, as the previous poster said, heals don't have he sustainability nor the dps of damage abilities.
I'm a stamina and weapon damage based sorc healer, and my damage aoes based of magicka still do more dps for less resources than my equivalent healing spells.
If yo ucheck all aoes on esohead, or other resource site, yo ushould notice this is a trend. Healing are designed to be preparatory or reactive, but not sustained.
And that's considering that you'd have equal sized groups with the whole group being on healing duty. If you have a normal spread of roles, then it isn't even a close call.
Maybe you'll situationally want to group up, to pop a barrier or a chargeing maneuver before doing a push, but you wouldn't want to be stacked 100% of the time. And you would do this at the cost of communiccation, organization and at the risk of having enemies abel to react and focus fire your now easy to target group.1 -
synnerman✭✭✭✭I'm an old cynic and I too was glad to see the information coming out about AoE caps etc . But I want to know when, not "we are considering".
According to Brain Wheeler discussions about this were taking place 6 weeks ago within the combat team .
ZoS look at this video and watch it all the way through and tell us why we (PvP endgamers) should carry on paying a sub for this??
I think you seriously misjudge just how many people are sick and tired of playing in cyrodiil with blobbing zergballs and will move back/ to other MMOs.
WHEN is the new AoE solution going to be introduced because if its not the next update then I fear you will see a mass exodus . Just my humble opinion.3 -
GwaynLoki✭✭✭Going to reserve my judgement on this for when/if it goes live. My fear is though that in bottlenecks, a group of devouring swarm users will be extremely powerful and NB's Sap Essence - alone or in combination with it - will get empowered as well if they don't rebalance it or keep the current target cap. I don't think it is a co-incidence they also debated the rebalance of ultimate gains. This change would otherwise break skills like Elemental Ring - the ultimate gain by DoTs on such a high number of people would be insane. A lot depends on the implementation of the cap itself and whether there are changes to existing skills due to it. Still, my best guess is that we will see another long time of frustrating mechanics 'abuse'.1 -
Dudis✭✭✭david271749 wrote: »I can understand lag, but why would aoe caps cause this?
More players hit, more animations, damage calculations etc...
However, assuming people figure this stuff out and spread out, it might even have a positive effect on lag
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supernico✭✭✭this video proves that AoE will be the only solution in the open world of Cyrodiil and efectivelly encouraged to use, and the faction with more AoE spammers will win the game. Simple as that. AoE cap removal makes life easier for group play vs. zerg. Because don't fool yourself, Zergs will continue to form and PvP will continue to happen in the same form as right now.
AoE cap removed is suicide.Edited by supernico on October 4, 2014 11:44AMSupernico - VR14 DragonKnight - Daggerfall Covenant - Former EmperorMy name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.2 -
Dudis✭✭✭Zergs will keep forming, this is targeted at the blobs and I think i speak for most people when i say i ver mych hope they go away.0
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 wrote: »NadiusMaximus wrote: »Turn friendly fire on. Problem solved, case closed, "Dishes are done, Man"
Not going to happen - STUPID idea. So if we pursue this a little just a little and humor the poster of this idea just imagine what our TS, Vent, Mumble, etc. groups will now sound like. Watch out that PuG just dropped talons by us, oh crap watch out our DK just Dragon Leaped towards your group, Nova crap that is our Nova, "my Negate" oh wait it affects all of us but the caster, etc. You open up one nasty can of worms if we begin asking the developers to "friendly fire" certain attacks. What will be next, another perceived OP skill will begin hearing the "friendly fire" chant till the developers cave in and make it a "friendly fire" affect. Moreover most of the skills in ESO are intended to benefit allies in some way shape or form. Yes it would add one heck of a new dynamic to PvP in Cyrodiil but where would it end. Once you cross this bridge do we then make skills also affect allies in a dungeon in PvE? As a war veteran I completely understand what "friendly fire" means but this is not the real world this is Tamriel. I kind of doubt even the late Gary Gygax would have ever considered making his Wizard's Fireball or Cone of Cold do friendly fire in DnD. Just saying.
On a side not keep these videos coming because maybe then the developers can see the mess they have on their hands. And I am not at all opposed to AoE capping as it seems very necessary at this point but there is still many issues to consider.
Friendly fire could happen in DnD. Things like that depended on your GM, there was nothing in the rules that said it could not happen.0 -
zhevon✭✭✭✭Well, this did open my eyes - thanks for the video and explanations.
They really need to add cooldowns; how the heck can this spamfest be fun?0 -
krim✭✭✭✭✭this video proves that AoE will be the only solution in the open world of Cyrodiil and efectivelly encouraged to use, and the faction with more AoE spammers will win the game. Simple as that. AoE cap removal makes life easier for group play vs. zerg. Because don't fool yourself, Zergs will continue to form and PvP will continue to happen in the same form as right now.
AoE cap removed is suicide.
Its frustrating right when currently with the AoE caps its still possible to take out large numbers with a small force. But people dont want to build or play their character a certain way. They want to call it cheesy, lame, exploiting, cheating, and just throw out game mechanics.
Just ask the 20+ red that got wiped trying to cross alessia bridge by Turben(Nymeroz), Huntlar, and I with no oils or siege just straight up pushed through.
Or ask the blue at brindle keep when Turben, pixy, kaghei, and I were in the keep just us four laying the smack down on so many it had to be 30+ easy plus guards.
Now ask yourself this do we need aoe cap removal or do people need to start running better builds that can make you effective in a wider range of situations.6 -
Komma✭✭✭✭✭
Sorry. I didn't mean everyone. Most don't actually that Ive seen.
Kohma Kozzy-cr160-Stamblade
Komma-cr160-Magicblade
Komma the Great-cr160-Stam DK
Kommah-cr160-Mag DK
Komma Kozzy-cr160-Mag Templar
Kommuh Kozzy-cr160-Stam Templar
Komma the White-cr160-Mag Sorc
The Tazmanian Devil-cr160-Stamsorc
OTG0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭this video proves that AoE will be the only solution in the open world of Cyrodiil and efectivelly encouraged to use, and the faction with more AoE spammers will win the game. Simple as that. AoE cap removal makes life easier for group play vs. zerg. Because don't fool yourself, Zergs will continue to form and PvP will continue to happen in the same form as right now.
AoE cap removed is suicide.
Its frustrating right when currently with the AoE caps its still possible to take out large numbers with a small force. But people dont want to build or play their character a certain way. They want to call it cheesy, lame, exploiting, cheating, and just throw out game mechanics.
Just ask the 20+ red that got wiped trying to cross alessia bridge by Turben(Nymeroz), Huntlar, and I with no oils or siege just straight up pushed through.
Or ask the blue at brindle keep when Turben, pixy, kaghei, and I were in the keep just us four laying the smack down on so many it had to be 30+ easy plus guards.
Now ask yourself this do we need aoe cap removal or do people need to start running better builds that can make you effective in a wider range of situations.
lag is so fun to deal with... I really enjoy my abilities having to be activated 10 times to activate..... I also enjoy not being able to damage anyone when these huge blobs show up.... I also enjoy none of my siege working...
when these huge groups show up, and start their spamfest, it almost looks like the game is being run with a Powerpoint format.
its not about people getting mad about being killed. it really does ruin all the fun of PvP.
Now, if that does not bother you.... fine, but just know its not just about people getting beat.Edited by Cody on October 4, 2014 4:48PM1 -
supernico✭✭✭I'm looking forward to aoe cap removal so I can watch krim's little AoE gang laughing in tears while they wreking the DC and EP zergs, now that they can AoE the *** down of EVERYONE at once.
You people are asking for it. I'm starting to feel like I'm witnessing a general insanity outbreak.
Supernico - VR14 DragonKnight - Daggerfall Covenant - Former EmperorMy name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.4 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Real talk only time i lag is when there is a huge amount of players around one keep. I have been part of huge battles where im not lagging...
How many excuses can you guys come up with?
its not an excuse.... there is proof of the lag that these zerg/impulse blobs cause, right in front of your face, in this very thread, via video.
nor do I think you understand what we all are talking about... when all those players bunch up into a blob like that, spamming impulse and batswarm and all that other ridiculous crap, it causes Immense lag, HOWEVER, if its a huge battle, but this kind of huge blob is not happening, it will not cause lag.
we are saying that zerg/impulse blob causes lag and skill delay(as well as crashes), we are not saying huge battles do. iv been in many huge battles in blackwater blade, and many of them I did not lag once. I go into thornblade, where this blobing up is common.... the lag is downright atrocious.
you can defend it however you want.
thankfully ZOS is finally starting to try to fix this crap. Will be glad when they get it straightened out
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Acemcfly101✭✭Awesome awesome video. Would be funny if in the Death Recap Hints it said "-Try posting repeatedly on the official forums about AoE caps.""-Complaints about AoE caps may often take several months to invoke a proper reaction. Stay persistent and hold your blocks."Edited by Acemcfly101 on October 5, 2014 4:30AM2 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have to wonder if ZOS is too late with this though.
When they first implemented AoE caps there was a huge uproar on the forums. People were threatening to quit over this issue alone.
They should have changed it the day after they announced it.
How many subs were lost because of this? How many of those do you think are never coming back?
ZOS needs to start reacting about 1,000x more quickly to feedback.
1. Agreed, as much as I love ESO, it was clearly a bad decision right from the word go (though, by all accounts, it was there at launch, it just took time for us to notice). We should not have been in a situation where we're only talking about fixing it 6 months later.
2. Good to see you still around NJ!
They claim it was always around. I believe there were videos from Beta demonstrating otherwise. Either way, bad decision.
And ya, I'm here. Took a bit of time off due to real life and frustrations with the game, but I still love it. Good to see you around too.
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Cysapper✭✭Here is why they added the AOE cap welcome the return of the infinity tank!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gymCpN0Pcsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfy_z4DQ3xg Edited by Cysapper on October 5, 2014 5:11AM1 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »the most efficient way to take a flag is to stand in one spot and spam fire ring.
the most efficient way to siege a keep is to stand in one spot and spam fire ring.
the most efficient way to PvP in cyrodiil is to stand in one spot and spam fire ring.
No, no and.. No?
No.0
