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In case anyone is wondering why AoE Caps are being removed..Here is the video
-
Columba✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here is why they added the AOE cap welcome the return of the infinity tank!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gymCpN0Pcsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfy_z4DQ3xg
wow. ANyone who has allowed those to happen should never be allowed near an MMO ever again.
2 -
They didn't add them afterwise as a reaction to anything. Aoe caps were suposedly always there, except for some skills that were bugged.
We did not notice it because in "normal play", you don't hit many targets with aoes, 2 to 4 targets in average.
Removing target caps is just returning the game to a state of spreading out to avoid aoes, which in the end is effectively nerfing aoes.
In the current meta, if people didn't change behaviors, aoes would potentially hit 20+ targets at a time quite often, but players adapt to game mechanics.
You need to take that into account.
Being able to roll larger numbers isn't relevant to the discution, as this isn't about zergs and small groups nor it is about "how to deal with stacking groups".
Lag and server responsiveness is just a byproduct of aoe target caps, and aren't even the gravest issue they cause. More hardware and different implementation could in theory "fix" that aspect, but more resources cannot fix game design flaws.
The core of the issue is that even when you beat a stacking group, it's because they messed up someplace, but stacking was always the preferable move.
Positionning is removed of the equation for them, as survavibility only depends on being able to follow the crown rather than having contextual awareness.
This leads to a reduced breadth of possible tactics.
Either you use stacking, or you're using counters to stackings, but that's it.
It also reduces the skill ceiling. Either you know how to follow a crown, or you know how to do a focus fire on command, both actions that are amongst the easiest things you can ask to players.
Remove the target caps makes stacking 100% of the time non viable.
Which adds:
- dynamic regrouping for certain buffs/heals,
- Direct aoe avoidance rather than passive dodge chance,
- skrimage lines individual players and leaders alike need to have a feel for, and recognise when to fall back or push dynamicaly,
- rolling lines as damaged individual players need to recognise when to fall back to get healed,
- Flanking maneuvers, as healers will most likely stay in the back and would be vulnerable, or just forcing the group to reposition in general.
And this is most likely just the tip of the iceberg. With a more open meta gme, there will be a wider, yet linear, progression curve between good and bad groups.3 -
Thrymbauld✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: ».......n, but players adapt to game mechanics.
You need to take that into account.
This, right here, is the crux of all things.
Friendly fire is simply not an option. Not sure if you all play on the same internet as me, but.....on mine, some people are jerks. There is a reason that the realism of FF has been almost exclusively denied to players for over a decade.
Removing/changing abilities/making caps, etc, really isn't the answer until you have an "unlimited" ability to use the abilities in the first place. In the case of Impulse(a popular target of hate), it really ought not be changed until the AE cap is gone and you can see whether or not it actually works in its "native" form. Artificial caps only hide problems or cause knee jerk changes that ultimately don't fix the core problem.
All of this because the players WILL adapt the the mechanics. If the best way to avoid AE is to bunch up(which is counter intuitive and a sure sign that it isn't a good idea anyway, since "stand in the AE to avoid it" is just a dumb design), that's what people will do. If run in with a hundred people and AE the crap out of the joint is what works, that's what people will do, and so on down the line.
Artificial counters like AE caps need to go away before real ability changes(which may or may not be needed) can even happen because they cloud the reality of what abilities actually do, enhancing some and detracting from others.1 -
Dudis✭✭✭Here is why they added the AOE cap welcome the return of the infinity tank!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gymCpN0Pcskhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfy_z4DQ3xg
You do realize that AoE caps wouldn't have made a difference at all in those vids, right? The most he's fighting at a time is like 4-5 guys.Edited by Dudis on October 5, 2014 10:44AM3 -
Thudunblundur✭✭✭Question from a computing ignoramus: If one of the main reasons for lag is the number of calculations some bit of electronic machinery has to do, won't the removal of AoE caps massively increase the number of calculation required and so actually increase the lag, especially in breaches and on flags?
I'm sort of assuming this can't be the case, because so many computer savvy people can't have missed it can they? Anyway, I'm curious.
2 -
Thrymbauld✭✭✭It'll actually improve lag, because rather than having to calculate the number of people, their current proximity, and their constant moving proximity(complete with latency prediction, etc,etc), it'll just calculate damage versus spell resist/armor number-which it is already generating for every actual hit and depending upon code may very well be calculating even on immune targets.
Any lag created from spell effect generation and the like will be completely unaffected, but this isn't the server side lag being referred to.
A number of times I've actually been forcibly disconnected for "spamming", and the spam in question has actually been movement and spell key inputs that the server decided to receive all at once and say "whoa buster! simmer it down!". If the server wasn't so darn busy trying to decide if I was contributing to someone elses AE immunity, it might start believing that pushing the W and 1 key every few seconds(to be fair, it usually happens as I furiously hammer my non-functional weapon swap key, the first one to seem to go in a server lag) is a fairly normal play tactic.1 -
Thudunblundur✭✭✭Think I got that. Thanks
(You gain more for not having to calculate the cap than you lose for extra calculations on effect/resist (if they are even extra))0 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭I'm looking forward to aoe cap removal so I can watch krim's little AoE gang laughing in tears while they wreking the DC and EP zergs, now that they can AoE the *** down of EVERYONE at once.
You people are asking for it. I'm starting to feel like I'm witnessing a general insanity outbreak.
Erm, yes. That's the desired outcome. Rendering zergs and especially blobs ineffective and making multiple small groups and spreading out much more desirable.
Massive numbers still would bring an advantage, as long as people adapt to spreading out more (which I'm confident they will, doesn't take much to learn that), but they shouldn't provide near invulnerability."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"1 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭Nazon_Katts wrote: »The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that not only caps have to removed, but AOE altogether. Atleast nobrain spammable PBAOE. A single target centric pvp should be more aesthetically pleasing. If there's AOEs, they should be ranged, channeled or with considerable cast time and powerful in the moment, situational and evadable, not the goto source for sustainable damage.
I have no interest in joining what was just shown here.
I will agree to a point with this. I do not believe aoe should be ranged exactly. I do however think aoe needs a huge sweeping damage nerf however.
Jukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign0 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭The fact that all these people continue to stand there and spam impulse should tell you the mentality of the majority of people who play this style(i.e. the self proclaimed good guilds). It should also point to the fact that it takes no skill to blob up and spam. Not the contrary as the people who employ this tactic seem to believe or try to get people to believe.
I have had people use impulse on me in single combat and it does a good chunk of damage not only because the base damage is too high but the spell penetration is still bugged to hell and back. Fix the little things like that, that remove spell penetration and you'll be closer to this style of play being a worse decision.
Nothing in this game at the moment seems tof require high player skill. Best skill you can acquire in this game is log in and create a sorc if you like to troll or dk if you like to faceroll(no offense was meant to be given this is simply the state of the game we play as of right now).Edited by Luvsfuzzybunnies on October 5, 2014 6:41PMJukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign1 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭Frost.dark wrote:
This is not an endorsment of Forward Camps, I'd rather not have them in the game too, but you are bringing them up in the wrong context.
Camps don't even enter the equation.
That's the point of exploiting the target cap, those groups stacking either get wiped all at once, when their "tank breaks", or none of them die.
If you don't need respawns, you don't need camps.
Without target caps, people will die more often, which is an indirect nerf to camps and the frontline sustainability they provide.
It would at the very least increase the attrition aspect of maintaining such a front and make them more situational. Like saving up to capture the last keep for emperorship rather than using camps all the time.
It would also cause more people to be in the world in between objectives.
I think this is very good context to bring up camps. People already die at very high rates and these camps only reinforce the idea that there is no penalty for dieing in this game. The limiting people to respawn in the radius of the camp will have little effect at stopping blood ports people will simply have to stagger camps to create a line with overlapping edges to gain the same blood ports and at 7 AP for a camp this is hardly an issue. They have to make camp cost prohibitive or require people to be grouped to respawn at a tent or remove them all together to give death and actual down side. Even the grouping fix is not a fix as people can drop and invite for porting purposes. Why have a mount when you can teleport?
Jukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign0 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.Edited by Luvsfuzzybunnies on October 5, 2014 7:09PMJukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.
They were everywhere only thing might have opened your eyes to them is the amount of QQ the caps being implemented caused. In fact I bet we can look back and see just how much it upset people that their AoE train couldn't kill everyone in 3 impulses instead of having to spam it continuously to have the same effect.Edited by Luvsfuzzybunnies on October 5, 2014 8:21PMJukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.
They were everywhere only thing might have opened your eyes to them is the amount of QQ the caps being implemented caused.
I pvped pretty consistently back then..I don't recall seeing a single 1 the entire time..
Soon as they announced that some abilities weren't following the cap..People started asking questions and they announced "Oh yea we have cap" and within a month you started getting the zerg balls.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
krim✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuI-fl0fCbc
earlier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGf7wRLKzm0 Edited by krim on October 5, 2014 8:52PM0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here is why they added the AOE cap welcome the return of the infinity tank!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gymCpN0Pcsk
just watched this video - duringt the entire 13min he was not once effecting more than 4 players with his aoe´s so what exactly is your point again? (he once fought 5 npc guards)
Edited by Tankqull on October 5, 2014 9:09PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuI-fl0fCbc
earlier?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGf7wRLKzm0
I skimmed through the first video..and that's not really a zerg ball..That's just zerging.
and you know this.... so why exactly did you post this?
*edit*
K managed to skim through the second one.. That one has some stacking in some instances but most of it is near the ram (where its looking more like they just wanted to stay under the siege shield) and a few cases of just stacking to Pbae guards..since ER didn't know about the Caps back then (and they made a huge fuss over it) i'd say they weren't intentionally doing it (we use to do the same thing when dragging people around corners).
But you can see when they're moving in large groups throughout the video...They're spread out somewhat just because they don't wanna get hit. They certainly aren't moving in a zerg ball doing nothing but spamming impulse the whole time.
Edited by Xsorus on October 5, 2014 9:27PMhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
@Luvsfuzzybunnies
On forward camps:
There are other discusions for this.let's not muddy the waters here.
As I said initially, I agree with you on the issues of FCs, but it hasn't got any bearings on the discussion here. The core of the issue being that the target caps make people die less often than they should, so users of stacking barely get to use camps.
For example, last time I joined a group doing stacking, I only died once in an entire evening. When I play to have fun and go in spread out figths over objectives, I die more often, perhaps 7 to 10 times an evening.
About your comments on the subject at hand:
Are you sure we're talking about the same thing?
We're not talking about having large numbers or spamming aoes, we're talking about stacking players in the same physical space in order to reduce received damage. That's what is refered to as a "zerg ball".
This would even exist without damage aoes.
However, If you're indeed talking about that, did you really see that before it was revealed in one of the patch note?
If yes, then it is most likely beta testing guilds that kept that secret for themselves to have an advantage at release. Caps were alegedly in the game since the first public tests so it is entirely possible that people discovered it and shut up about it.
For the general public, it was unknown until it got publicly revealed in a patch note to "fix" 3 or 4 uncapped abilities and the subsequent clarification.
Before that, I haven't met a single stacking group, and many players share that same experience.
Once the cat got out of the bag though, we could witness the change over night as players adapted to this new information. It took a while longer to reach more casual campaigns or off hour times, but prime time stabilized around stacking nearly instantly.
You misinterpreted the outrage back then, and to call it QQ shows you in a bad light.
The players that were campaigning then are those that had previous encounters with target caps in other games and knew it would devolve in the stacking meta game we're experiencing now. Even players that haven't played GW2 or Shadowbane, could see how to exploit such a system.
And as we can see, this prediction was pretty spot on.
Many left gw2 and jumped on ESO expecting to play RvR without target caps just to end up being disapointed after a few weeks.
I love the game, and I'm satisfied with my purchase and ongoing sub for the PvE side, but the AvA was a bait and switch.
And finally, regarding your suggestion to lower aoe damage, this is what made me wonder if you were talking about the same problem than the rest of this thread.
It would cause players to stack more. There would be even less punishment for bunching up, and retain the advantage of being hard to target individuals in the blur and have access to aoe heals/buffs.
But on a side note, you almost have a point:Aoe and single target damage per mana aren't very well balanced. Aoes seem to become preferable at 2 targets, when the average targets hit by aoes are ranging from 2 to 4 depending on radius. (in a non stacking situation, otherwise it is guaranteed 6 targets)
In my opinion, cost per damage should become at the aoe's favor starting at 3, perhaps even 4 targets, increasing skill floor for efficient aoe usage.
But this doesn't mean reducing aoe damage, just adjusting their cost.
The case against target caps is already made at length.
What makes you still argue here against its removal?
What does the target cap bring to the game that warrants ignoring its glaring issues?1 -
Luvsfuzzybunnies✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Luvsfuzzybunnies
On forward camps:
There are other discusions for this.let's not muddy the waters here.
As I said initially, I agree with you on the issues of FCs, but it hasn't got any bearings on the discussion here. The core of the issue being that the target caps make people die less often than they should, so users of stacking barely get to use camps.
For example, last time I joined a group doing stacking, I only died once in an entire evening. When I play to have fun and go in spread out figths over objectives, I die more often, perhaps 7 to 10 times an evening.
About your comments on the subject at hand:
Are you sure we're talking about the same thing?
We're not talking about having large numbers or spamming aoes, we're talking about stacking players in the same physical space in order to reduce received damage. That's what is refered to as a "zerg ball".
This would even exist without damage aoes.
However, If you're indeed talking about that, did you really see that before it was revealed in one of the patch note?
If yes, then it is most likely beta testing guilds that kept that secret for themselves to have an advantage at release. Caps were alegedly in the game since the first public tests so it is entirely possible that people discovered it and shut up about it.
For the general public, it was unknown until it got publicly revealed in a patch note to "fix" 3 or 4 uncapped abilities and the subsequent clarification.
Before that, I haven't met a single stacking group, and many players share that same experience.
Once the cat got out of the bag though, we could witness the change over night as players adapted to this new information. It took a while longer to reach more casual campaigns or off hour times, but prime time stabilized around stacking nearly instantly.
You misinterpreted the outrage back then, and to call it QQ shows you in a bad light.
The players that were campaigning then are those that had previous encounters with target caps in other games and knew it would devolve in the stacking meta game we're experiencing now. Even players that haven't played GW2 or Shadowbane, could see how to exploit such a system.
And as we can see, this prediction was pretty spot on.
Many left gw2 and jumped on ESO expecting to play RvR without target caps just to end up being disapointed after a few weeks.
I love the game, and I'm satisfied with my purchase and ongoing sub for the PvE side, but the AvA was a bait and switch.
And finally, regarding your suggestion to lower aoe damage, this is what made me wonder if you were talking about the same problem than the rest of this thread.
It would cause players to stack more. There would be even less punishment for bunching up, and retain the advantage of being hard to target individuals in the blur and have access to aoe heals/buffs.
But on a side note, you almost have a point:Aoe and single target damage per mana aren't very well balanced. Aoes seem to become preferable at 2 targets, when the average targets hit by aoes are ranging from 2 to 4 depending on radius. (in a non stacking situation, otherwise it is guaranteed 6 targets)
In my opinion, cost per damage should become at the aoe's favor starting at 3, perhaps even 4 targets, increasing skill floor for efficient aoe usage.
But this doesn't mean reducing aoe damage, just adjusting their cost.
The case against target caps is already made at length.
What makes you still argue here against its removal?
What does the target cap bring to the game that warrants ignoring its glaring issues?
I do not always convey my ideas clearly it would seem. I appreciate your response and will focus on the parts which I may have not actually voiced my opinion on.
I was in fact speaking of zerging in general and understand the ball part would be dropped if caps were dropped. But the idea of AoE spam in the groups prior to caps was still to hit as many possible targets and people did congregate to spam theirs. The concept gained a name and became stronger with caps yes.
I am not for or against having aoe caps in this game necessarily. I support them as long as all aoe is capped not just healing. I did not play guild wars but I can most certainly avoid zerg balls or pick people off of them. If I do my job right and it seems I do they turn focus to me as I've had them ignore groups to focus me as a single player. Two zerg balls meet up it will be the same as two large zergs meeting up the first hit will win so I don't see the issue if people want to zerg it will happen and there are counter play options for impulse zergballs(ie disease and fire siege and spreading out just like regular zerg counterplay). Bat spam is an entirely different issue since you activate it, it does lots of damage and heals you while you move around with it and people can't move away from you and can spam other abilities. Has been discussed at length in other threads.
Increasing the cost of an AoE would in fact possibly decrease the spamability yes. We have however witnessed people with mana pools and regen high enough to maintain spam ability of high cost abilities. I should mention that I did in fact mean AoE damage should be reduced across the board regardless of caps or no caps. Now we can argue about mana cost or damage nerf it all boils down to less damage so we can agree to disagree on how we arrive at less damage.
Edited by Luvsfuzzybunnies on October 5, 2014 10:37PMJukette VR12 DC Nightblade 14 day campaign.
Kitten Kisser VR12 DC Sorcerer 14 day campaign2 -
krim✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »effinshiddy wrote: »what i see in that video is a fight lagged to death that 10 AD couldn't win against 50+ opponents.
what you are proposing is making it so the 10 AD CAN take a keep from 50 defenders. unreasonable and unrealistic.
This is not what this change will bring.
Those 10 may be able to wipe out the 50 in one shot, but this is only "potential" damage if the 50 are stacked on top of each other.
In reality, a focus fire will impact at most 2 to 6 targets due to how aoe are limited by a radius.
This require timing and ground targeted aiming.
On the other hand, the 50 can use instant cast no aiming single target skills at the 10 and come out on top by a large margin.
The 50+ may lose 10% of their group, which is the intent, to create attrition in larger groups, but they will never lose to 10.
Also, take into account that a keep is suposed to be the last stand, if those 50 are cornered in a keep by a group of 10, they have already lost, with or without getting one shotted.
And finaly, if yo uwant to talk about unreasonable and unrealistic, how about a supernova that spans the size of a room and that damages only 6 people in it?effinshiddy wrote: »99% of the reason nothing is taking damage in certain parts of that fight is BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SPAMMING AOE
causing lag and nothing to be hit.
so the proposed counter to this is
UNCAP AOE SO WE CAN ALL STAND AND SPAM MORE.
It is counter intuitive, but perfectly logical.
Aoe get spammed nowadays because there are only situations where aoes are needed. And those situation exist only because of the target cap.
Even when capped, using an aoe on a stacked group is a guaranteed 6 targets hit, which is far better than using single target abilities.
But with the way the smart healing work, groups have a much higher survavibility meaning that a lot of spam occurs on both ends, heals and damage.
If you remove that unnatural survavibility, the spamming is reduced.
People won't be stacked, so aoes have less viability and single targets, with their instant and auto aim abilities, become preferable.
In turn, groups take less absolute damage, and there is less healing required.
And in the case of a chokepoint, a timely reactio ncan ensure a swift victory, which obviously cuts down on the lagging.
But there are tools in game to mitigate that, like the retreating maneuver, or barriers, which really breaks down things to which group has the best coordination.effinshiddy wrote: »listen to yourselves and stop.
fix the servers and people will take damage and fights will work appropriately.
I recommend you follow your own suggestion and try to read up more on the issue.
You're obviously very new to the discussion and a lot of the misconception you show have been addressed many times over in the past few months.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made in favor of target caps, but I have yet to see one. Perhaps with a bit more knowledge, you'd be able to change that.
But as it stands, the caps are cause of the most important issues both gameplay wise and technical wise.
The spectrum of available tactics is reduced to a very narrow band, and these behaviors cause a server load that the game wasn't designed to handle.
So if I understand you correct you're saying there was no zerg balling before caps which is actually untrue. Zerg balls were very prevalent due to:
1.) Aoe healing being the only aoe with a 6 target cap.
2.) Aoe damage being much too high in its original and current iterations.
Decrease the amount of damage AoE's do and further decrease the amount that they do when hitting max targets and you will see these zerg ball groups dissipate quickly in favor of higher damaging single target abilities.
I don't recall seeing any zerg balls before it was announced there were actually caps in place.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuI-fl0fCbc
earlier?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGf7wRLKzm0
I skimmed through the first video..and that's not really a zerg ball..That's just zerging.
and you know this.... so why exactly did you post this?
*edit*
K managed to skim through the second one.. That one has some stacking in some instances but most of it is near the ram (where its looking more like they just wanted to stay under the siege shield) and a few cases of just stacking to Pbae guards..since ER didn't know about the Caps back then (and they made a huge fuss over it) i'd say they weren't intentionally doing it (we use to do the same thing when dragging people around corners).
But you can see when they're moving in large groups throughout the video...They're spread out somewhat just because they don't wanna get hit. They certainly aren't moving in a zerg ball doing nothing but spamming impulse the whole time.
Now i know zerging, and zerg balls are different.
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Blackthorn51✭✭✭Personally, I would rather see all the AOE in the game either completely removed with the sole exception of siege engines or limited to a specific area of effect where you must target the location you want to drop the AOE. No more of this 360 mash button kill everyone around you ***. Handle ALL AOE like Caltrops where you have to select the exact location that it will go off and must take the time think about how best to use it. Now -that- would bring out some skilled players. Obviously this will never happen but a guy can dream.Edited by Blackthorn51 on October 6, 2014 5:40AM2
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tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just ban the people crating these zerg balls? /sarcasm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FatIi1DlQqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI0E02NVcXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7FW0BK2fUo Edited by tordr86b16_ESO on October 8, 2014 12:33AM0 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Lets also blame the players using what the game has to offer for causing the lag.
impuse spammers + zerg balls grinds the server to an halt. especially when ALL sides does it. I've seen it and I really wish they just banned them.
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krim✭✭✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »
Lets also blame the players using what the game has to offer for causing the lag.
impuse spammers + zerg balls grinds the server to an halt. especially when ALL sides does it. I've seen it and I really wish they just banned them.
Im losing all faith.
0 -
Why ban them? Oo
They are just using a game mechanic. They are doing nothing wrong.
The game needs to be fixed and aoe caps removed.2
