No End Game = No MMO
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How is that a personal attack? You don't represent the average ESO player, and you do play this game as if it were a full time job.
ESO has been out for about 6 months, which is approximately 180 days. You've stated you've played 1000+ hours in Cyrodiil, and you also spend a great deal of time doing PvE. So conservatively based on your own words we can guess at 2000 hours played, but lets pretend you've exaggerated a bit and it's really only 1500 hours total played. 1500 hours divided up into 8 hour working days equals 187.5 work days.
So, unless you've been lying to us the fact is since ESO launched in April you've played in excess of an 8 hour working day 7 days a week, every week until this point. You can be proud of that you can be ashamed of that, for the point I'm making it's irrelevant. The fact is that due to your extreme hours played you are not remotely representative of the vast majority of ESO players. That's not a personal attack it's a fact.
That sure sounds like personal attack. This thread isn't about my personal life (which I can assure you is nothing out of the ordinary).
Also playing 8 hours a day is nothing special, there are a lot of gamers playing as much, I see them online every day (even when I log out). These are the players who populate MMOs & make them feel alive. You don't want to drive them away.Here's one more fact for you, your $15 month isn't any more valuable than some casual player who plays a couple of hours a week and never comes to this forum. Actually a good argument could be made that your $15 is worth less than theirs, because from a development standpoint you are way more work to please than that casual player.
Of course not. I think this game has done a terrific job at pleasing casuals with its splendid leveling experience & relative easy level of dungeons.
However, as someone stated earlier in the thread, while casuals may create the numbers, hardcore players create the excitement.As for the rest of your comments, you're just repeating the same old stuff, frequently without really addressing what I'm saying and often also distorting what I'm saying. There's no point to me responding to it further, I stand by what I've already said.
I've always addressed what you're saying, like I'm doing with this separate paragraph specifically aimed towards the quoted part of your argument.
You say gear progression would "spoil" the game for people who don't care about gear (if they don't care, how does it even matter? There's a dilemma there). I respond with reasons why it wouldn't "spoil" anything and I address both PvP & PvE separately.
Then you run out of arguments & resort to personal attacks.
...Next.Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2014 1:21AM4 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Gear progression=better itemization. Currently you can craft the best gear in 5 minutes with little to no effort, or you can go do PvE/PvP for days/weeks to get subpar gear. This ultimately only makes PvE/PvP not worth doing over & over again.
I hope you've got the idea now.
As to how to fix it, it's simple. Reward players who spent more effort & do harder content (whether it's PvE or PvP) with better loot than people who do not. You can keep crafting relevant by adding "special" crafting materials as drops from Trial bosses/PvP reward bags, which craft gear equal to PvE/PvP gear. Trick is not making the high end gear too strong, while making it still matter (say, around 10-20% more powerful).
I think we got your idea.
It's extremely understandable. It's a classic.
Yet ESO is not "classic", progress does not necessarily imply better gear rewards.
However ESO HAS to do something to support it's not "classic" position, because gear rewards are easy to understand (that's why the most famous MMO does it) whereas ESO position about rewards is not.
Basically, whereas one could object to your opinion about gear rewards being the solution, ESO has itself yet to provide one. ESO is ambiguous and just does not reply to several important players expectations including motivating people into keep playing (and paying) the same content.
Gear rewards are the easy way out, a grindy carrot with the promise to "own" at something else. ESO's rewards so far are clearly NOT planned being gear (otherwise the drops would not suck and craftables would not be as good as best drops) yet at the moment it's not delivering any kind of rewards at all.
At least, traditional raiding would take so long that defeating the last boss would be it's own achievement. In ESO it's just the umpteenth 8 minutes boring replay.
ZoS silence in this respect is deafening.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Well, good job at getting to VR14, unlike most of the people who comment here about end game. Now, since you're still having fun on clearing AA/Hel Ra & challenging DSA (normal mode I assume), can you say you're happy with the thrash loot you are getting? I'm not. My guild mates are not. Practically no other people I've talked to are happy with the drops (Aether set being the only one equal with some crafted sets).
There you go assuming again, you know what they say about assuming, it makes an ass of U, my DSA experience is in vet mode, and I don't know but maybe you and I have different methods to why we do things, but the challenged provided in the arena is exactly what players on this forum have been asking for, this fact alone keeps me interested. The difficulty of the content, the fun, the feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience for me, loot and achievements are icing on the cake. This is something I believe that the older MMO crowd will relate to. If it's fun it has replay value it's as simple as that.
Mind elaborating on how character progression happens in VR levels? How do our characters progress exactly? ...Didn't think so.
Also, this champion system will force me to level 8 alts to VR14 in case I want to truly maximize my character's Champion Points.
And I will do so, without complaining. Still doesn't prevent gear from being another factor (this would in fact balance the game, as people who spend more time getting gear have less time leveling alts & Champion Points).
I like how you answered your own question there speaking for me, just classic
I explained in my original post how the current system supports horizontal progression. Skill points are the life blood of the system, if you really have completed cadwells silver and gold you should know how much stronger, simply by the vast amount of skill points acquired your character becomes through the addition of more passives, the ability fill other roles, change play style through the use of different armor and weapon types this is horizontal progression. And it will only continue to grow as more skills lines are add / expanded (Ex. Dark brotherhood and thieves guild) this is horizontal progression, something I already knew but thanks for the links anyways
Sorry, but if you want to play competitively, you will have to play with the most efficient build. I do that in PvE, only because it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the team if they had to carry me.
No one is forcing you to play competitively, that's is your choice, that is the way YOU like to play. Just because you don't use the cookie cutter
build does not mean the rest of the raid is carrying you either.
In PvP I play a stamina build, not only because I enjoy it more, but because I find it more challenging (not an option in group PvP/PvE, where others depend on your performance).
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You always have an option, I have plenty of NB friends who play stamina builds in PVP and in no way shape or form do they hinder the group.
Let's stop right here. AA & Hel Ra normal modes stopped being relevant when they raised VR to 14 & raised soft caps. Even some of the worse pugs can do it. Next, try doing them on hardmode (not too difficult either, but you will not do it if people don't have optimized builds & gear). I've seen a couple of pugs wipe at Varlariel also, when they have too many 500DPS guys in the raid.
Hmm so your saying there is a form of progression in the game already. From normal to hard modes, how interesting....I thought you said we had no progression, hmm and what about when they add new trials with ever increasing difficulty, is that not also a form of progression ? From easier trials to the more difficult ones ?
Good luck at VR Arena (or even normal) & Sanctum Ophidia without optimized builds. I'm fine with these 2 first Trials being easily accessible to people, it would make the gear progression work even better when people could get decent gear from dungeons they can clear.
Went to vet DSA with a sorc healer and NB Stam dps, nuff said.
I'm not assuming, most of these people have actually stated they are not VR14, which I don't find surprising at all.
You did assume, you did it to me twice already, not to mention the other number of times you have in this epic thread[quote="Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO;13
01766"]
Also stop trying to convince people that there is no character progression post 50 because there is, I am not going to post it again here for a third time, you can scroll back to page 9 and read all about this thing called horizontal progression.
Something tells me you're not quite aware what horizontal progression means.
Horizontal Progression implies expanding the amount of attributes or skills available to your character & building the most efficient combos with them. Now, can you tell me what new attributes/skills do you get access to after reaching VR14? Especially after grinding out all the skill points (side note: I'd much rather "grind" gear than attributes/skills)
Here's a link if you need to read up on it: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/ (written by someone who prefers Horizontal Progression)
Don't worry I know what horizontal progression is I outlined it pretty well in my original post on page 9. A system that allows character expansion through the addition of skills and passives. So from VR1 to VR14 I acquired a ton more skill points allowing me to advance my character horizontally, you see now ? I don't know how to write it any easier
They are making leveling faster, because the game is extremely large already
If that is a concern for you, ZOS might as well stop making new zones & areas entirely. Since, you know, that creates this gap called content to these new players. Can't have that!
Here is where you are mistaken, again
new zones / areas do not create a problem if the progression system is horizontal, because unlike the vertical progression your preaching about it does not create a gear gap thus enabling new and veteran users to enjoy new content simultaneously Edited by Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO on October 3, 2014 2:23AM2 -
Aeratus✭✭✭✭✭For me, what is missing from the endgame is sandbox pvp. I would prefer a game where the dynamics of pvp can be more driven by specific player factions, where ownership of property really mattered to the specific player groups and where players drive their own wars between guilds. Instead, what we have is rather than just have 3 big factions zerg it out in a lagfest. While grand at first, it gets old quickly.
Personally, I hate gear grind, including doing trials to grind for gear. It's all just an illusion, and I'm not fooled by it. In fact, your level 4 character is, in relative terms, stronger than your v14 is. You can see this iin that at level 4, one cast of biting jabs basically kills any mob, whereas such is not true at v14.3 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭To everyone other than DDuke:
While I'm sure both DDuke and I have added some different perspectives to this discussion I also think it's very clear neither of us should be the ones leading the direction of this discussion. The reason being neither DDuke or I are going to be representative of the real ESO playerbase. Lets be honest here on one hand you have DDuke a guy that's been playing ESO like a full time job since launch and that basically wants the game to statistically reward/pay him for his massive expenditure of free time. If ESO actually did that in the way he wants the result would be that DDuke would be 'god like' compared to the average player, and the game would become such that the majority of players would be like 3rd class citizens of Tamriel. Then you have me who obviously isn't interested in any form of PvE endgame which Zenimax is clearly focused on being a big part of their game whether I like it or not. Also like a lot of older MMO gamers I'm still waiting for the 'holly grail' the next UO, which ESO will never be. Zenimax does need to carefully balance different forms of gameplay, but in truth neither DDuke or I are the best voices to help guide them on that path.
Ok I'm done writing essays.
Edited for format
Nice post sir! Any post that is interesting and have some sort of reality view is what forums are for.
It is very refreshing to see "new" users post here, with different views on ESO.
Those who are complaining without any sort of facts other then what they think the world should look like, are not interested in ESO. They want a post talking about THEM.
Notice how some almost gets annoyed when anyone speaks of details in ESO? "Eh.....WHAT? Stop talking about the game. Talk about ME!!!"
I played pretty much daily since 5 days early access. I play a main char only (just 1 alt I play when time permits). My "/played" says 53 days.
I am Vet 7 and I have not had ONE second of boredom or even run into any problems for that matter. Biggest problem was Cyrodiil/Dungeons groups 5FPS bug in July. But that was pretty much the "last" big bug after a VERY good launch.
There are a lot of users in this thread to discuss with. Not only the ones who post the same thing over and over. Who seams almost immune to any sort of facts or even consider to put up any sort of reasons for their view.
I play TONS. I always have something to do, find new things and having fun every day. Even making good friends.
Turn your attention to those who enjoy the game.
Zenimax has proven over and over again to listen to their player base. They also have been quite forward who their player base is. It's not only on these forums....
I have been looking for a new Everquest for over a decade. Still no luck.
ESO isn't Everquest. But it IS the new long-term game.
Anyone who claims "free-to-play", dont have a clue.
Any player who claims to play the game and can not see the increase in population.....can not possible play the game.
Not only is ESO outstanding and Zenimax doing a great work, which they planned to do this way. We got so much to look forward, with a proven plan, and several teams who doing a great balancing job.
Players who just look at their view.....they can not see this.
Most players are to happy in the game to even come here.
Thats the truth.Edited by Cogo on October 3, 2014 3:54AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"3 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's one more fact for you, your $15 month isn't any more valuable than some casual player who plays a couple of hours a week and never comes to this forum. Actually a good argument could be made that your $15 is worth less than theirs, because from a development standpoint you are way more work to please than that casual player.
As for the rest of your comments, you're just repeating the same old stuff, frequently without really addressing what I'm saying and often also distorting what I'm saying. There's no point to me responding to it further, I stand by what I've already said.
I learned this the hard way. They do not want to listen! If what you say is true...."their way" is not....and some people dont live like that.
No flaming or name calling is needed.
Reply to others in this, quite good thread and we can keep up expanding our view, which Zenimax IS looking at. Lets them hear from the players who really PLAYs ESO.Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, good job at getting to VR14, unlike most of the people who comment here about end game. Now, since you're still having fun on clearing AA/Hel Ra & challenging DSA (normal mode I assume), can you say you're happy with the thrash loot you are getting? I'm not. My guild mates are not. Practically no other people I've talked to are happy with the drops (Aether set being the only one equal with some crafted sets).
Since you are a Jedi master Vet 14 and I am just Vet 7. Am i allowed to talk about what groups lower then Vet 14 have done? Or is the limit to speak,"rank 14"?
This one seeks to humbly inform Master Vet 14, that in phase 3 of the Champion system, will remove your Vet rank and replace it with a base starting Champion points. Phase 2 replaces Vet points with regular exp.
Don't worry master Vet 14! You are still level 50 and woun't loose any level.
Your champion points are account wide and there are over 1000s points to spend in the CURRENT 9 "trees". Since this is a copy of EQ AA system. More passives and "trees" will be added.
Any char on your account, will be able to use the points not allocated by your level 5o chars. They do have to be level 50 to use them for obvious reasons.
No one will have all the points. So no worry about "overpower"!Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »So stop assuming just because people disagree with you that they are not VR14.DDuke:
I'm not assuming, most of these people have actually stated they are not VR14, which I don't find surprising at all.
Master Vet 14 still claims only players who reach this vet rank are allowed to speak? Does master don't want to know others experiences?
I am much glad at master vet 14, who tells me what I can and not can do. Phew! Master Vet 14 have enlighten me to not repeat events and encounters I have cleared! I wish master would have told me this one sooner.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »Also stop trying to convince people that there is no character progression post 50 because there is, I am not going to post it again here for a third time, you can scroll back to page 9 and read all about this thing called horizontal progression.DDuke:
Something tells me you're not quite aware what horizontal progression means. Especially after grinding out all the skill points (side note: I'd much rather "grind" gear than attributes/skills)
Here's a link if you need to read up on it: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/ (written by someone who prefers Horizontal Progression)
Very good master Vet 14! A link! Could you link to the joystick best MMO 2014 where ESO is in top 3?
I am happy to read in your post that you realize that Zenimax had balanced in mind 2012, 2 years before launch:Matt Firor:
In Camelot though we had 47 classes that were all different, and after a while it was much more difficult to balance than it should have been – so if we've learned anything in the 11 years since it's:
"Let the players create the characters they want, and we balance from there."
Elder Scrolls Online lets any player, regardless of class or race, use any piece of equipment. "So it's symmetrical in the sense that everyone has the same options, but of course not everyone's going to choose the same ones."
That raises the prospect of homogenisation; players rapidly deciding which weapons are optimised, and then hundreds of them running around waving the same sword.
"As game designers you have to solve those problems no matter what class or character system you have," laughs Firor. "In a true class-based system you run the risk everyone rolls the same class, but in a more open one the players will very much from the beginning try to find the most powerful build, and it's our job to ensure that there are many viable builds.
Clear as day! Good balance, player skill and more content, advancements for ALL players is coming on a regular bases.
If you believe this humble, low rank player, who enjoy every second in game. Maybe Master Vet 14 will enjoy ESO as well?Edited by Cogo on October 3, 2014 4:29AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"2 -
Helwyr✭✭
There are a lot of users in this thread to discuss with. Not only the ones who post the same thing over and over. Who seams almost immune to any sort of facts or even consider to put up any sort of reasons for their view.
I play TONS. I always have something to do, find new things and having fun every day. Even making good friends.
Turn your attention to those who enjoy the game.
Thank you for your kind comments Cogo. Although I think the best way to return that courtesy would be to bow out of this discussion after this post. I've made my point and stand by what I've said, and the only person to really take issue with it didn't want to have a reasoned fact based argument. However, I've also conceded that ESO just isn't a long term game for a player such as myself, so admitting that and arguing about a game I no longer want to actually play is a bit of an indulgence (sorry for that
).
Also I wouldn't want to give the impression I didn't enjoy ESO at all, there was some good story telling, exploration, character development in the early stages of the game, and Zenimax put more effort into immersion than most MMO developers which I appreciate (although Cadwell's Silver and Gold being a huge horrible exception of this). It was mostly post 50 where my expectations were really failed to be met, and there's no signs that will change.
Perhaps I'll be back if things change in a way I like, but more likely you'll see me in a game like Camelot Unchained should it make it to release. And yeah I'll be on the forums arguing against some guy that wants to turn the game into a massive gear grind fest, because there's at least one in every MMO forum out there, even MMOFPS type games... if nothing else they're persistent.
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Zubba✭✭✭I look at things from a different Point of view...
Why do we stop levelling? Level cap? Or, why do we have levels to start with?
If you get confused, have a look at eve online with its way of progress.
edit: To me PvP is the starting Point, the journey, and the end game.Edited by Zubba on October 3, 2014 8:19AMAdd PvP loot drops for some risk/reward in this game.
Captain Morgan Society
Zub
How'd ya feel like scraping the barncles off me rudder.. Matey..1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
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Thank you! Was looking for something funny to screenshot for our homepage news update.
https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1919/kw/max level
The level cap link is obviously useless, it doesn't give any estimate of timescale(its far too vague).
Also the bigger problem with it, is it was written before they implemented the VR system. You can tell by the fact they bang on about level 50, which does not exist, due to going 49 to VR1.
I have fed this back to them though.1 -
Osira✭✭
I didn't talked about GW2 for a very specific reason : this game is terrible and boring.And yet it was a B2P title, just like its follow-up GW2. The kind of game that has you playing until you're done with the story, after which you rapidly dump it until it releases another story, which you complete in 2 days.
ESO is a subscription based MMO, which rely on giving people reason to play 30 days a month as well as keeping people after max level satisfied.
Something tells me you are not max. level.
And you are very wrong about Guild Wars 1, there were many things to do in PvE not only going through the missions until the last one. But I guess you know that since you played the game, right?
And yes, I'm a brand new player (actually played the beta but who cares), doesn't mean I have no opinion about this topic. Indeed I have one both as customer and player... Like anyone else. Keep that in mind.
MMO market is indeed in decline at the moment, that's even more true for MMOs with the sub-model. That's facts, just get some infos out there you'll see. But I'm surprised you act like you know nothing of it.MMO market failing? Just where do you come up with this stuff... There are more MMOs at the moment than ever before.
Just to make this clear, I love sandbox games. But there is no reason why you can't have both gear progression & sandbox elements. Some people actually find the "fun" in making their characters more powerfull in contrast to others.
There are plenty of MMO and? They just all tries to get some of the cake of WoW's playerbase. It never works. A MMO is released, great, few months later you don't even hear about it anymore. Wildstar, ArcheAge... It's all the same. Been there, done that.As to doing the same dungeon 100 times and not getting a piece of gear... that's called bad luck (or lack of DKP), it exists already. Get over it.
Although I agree that there should be other avenues of getting equally powerful gear, such as PvP (in case you don't like doing a dungeon 100 times).
In case you didn't noticed, that was an exageration. You admit it's something possible though, I myself know it's possible. But never got through that kind of stuff 'cause it bores me to death. And I bet I'm not the one these days.
So? Just because it's not the same genre means you don't have to take the good ideas from them? If you were leading a company it wouldn't go far with that kind of mindset. Way to go for innovation.You stated it yourself. I don't complain about the lack of gear in those games when playing them (all of which I've played btw).
By the way, Minecraft actually does have gear progression (albeit a short one).
Minecraft does have gear progression, but once you have the last tier armor/ressources there's no treadmill anymore. And that's a good thing if you ask me.If you don't want to "grind", don't "grind". Do PvP & be happy, get gear along the way. What is the problem? If people were sick of "these kind of games", I'm sure they wouldn't have 7+ million subscribers and be the standard for subscription MMOs (which require replayability).
7M is an old number, despite the next expansion coming you still think they have that kind of number? Of course not. The majority of the playerbase is from China, where players do enjoy grinding games.
Last time I played WoW (few months ago), old servers that used to be full of people are now almost like deserts. There are quite a good pack of topics asking for servers transfer/fusions.
You just read a number that is dated from like 1 2 or 3 years ago and think it's gonna last forever? WoW is in decline, even with that next expansion.It is actually doing the opposite, which you'll find out once reaching VR14. Less & less people online, Cyrodiil campaigns emptying, harder to find groups, guilds dying one by one etc.
I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, just a realist. I've had multiple guilds already quit the game because of the unrewarding gameplay.
Like I said, game hasn't have 1 year old, content will come. I do however understand that people can get bored and unsub, it happens in every game. That's why it's good to play not one game only but others too.
And there are better ways to reward players other than gear progression. It's just a matter of knowing how to entertain. To be honest, people played the gear progression thing in WoW for years, and it's getting boring even in new games.Yet another game that has nothing to do with MMOs.
Have you been paying a subscription for that game 1,5 years? I didn't think so.
Yes, because all MMOs (especially now) are P2P ? Yes?
Well the majority are F2P. Just look up a MMO list and you'll see. Times change.
You totally missed the point anyway : a game that I enjoy to play, entertains me, and still do so yet with very little things. You should come by sometime.
If it was a sub based game, it would have way more updates and contents though. But I'd gladly pay for that.What makes this MMO so "untypical" in your opinion?
Also, since a big part of the playerbase actually cares about the gear their character is wearing, would you suggest them to "go play another MMO" as well? Third question: are you one of the people who wanted ESO to be F2P? Because that's what it sounds like.
Why I think this game is different?
- TES setting
- Meaningful crafting
- Build theorycrafting that is truly lacking in games nowadays (Hi to GW1 & Path of Exile though)
- Redguard women
- Various environments, Skyrim, Hammerfell etc.
- Combat is not like the usual MMO, you need to target and keep at it.
- Blocking, Riposte, Dodge.
- And surely other things I've not seen yet.
A big part of the playerbase you say? Why in the Guild Summit they didn't like the Seasonal Gear idea? Why many people are here arguing that this idea is silly ?
Oh let me guess... You think a few others and especially YOU represent the majority right?
Bad news : you don't, neither do I.
You read badly if you think I want this game to be F2P, liking B2P games doesn't mean I want ESO to be F2P.
Going from P2P to F2P means one thing for sure : less content, less updates, less customer support. Look at Age of Conan or LOTRO.
Question for you though : have you ever played a The Elder Scrolls game, finished it but kept playing? Why? Because of mods adding extra content?
Remember how people were dissapointed when Bethesda told that there would be no more DLCs for Skyrim?
Can't remember any of these games having a silly gear grind by the way. Funny how you can play a game for such a long time without that cheap method don't you think?
And I have like 2.000 hours in this game, yet I'm still looking forward to play it again once I get my SSD.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
There you go assuming again, you know what they say about assuming, it makes an ass of U, my DSA experience is in vet mode, and I don't know but maybe you and I have different methods to why we do things, but the challenged provided in the arena is exactly what players on this forum have been asking for, this fact alone keeps me interested. The difficulty of the content, the fun, the feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience for me, loot and achievements are icing on the cake. This is something I believe that the older MMO crowd will relate to. If it's fun it has replay value it's as simple as that.
You talk about having fun in AA & Hel Ra and next claim the difficulty, fun & feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience? Sorry, but if any average pug can clear AA/Hel Ra, how is that difficult in any way? And are you still getting a "feeling of accomplishment" after clearing those for 571th time?
As for the icing on your cake, achievements are one time only and loot no one in their right mind would wear. So yeah, about that icing...
You should know these things, are you new to the end game?Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
I like how you answered your own question there speaking for me, just classic I explained in my original post how the current system supports horizontal progression. Skill points are the life blood of the system, if you really have completed cadwells silver and gold you should know how much stronger, simply by the vast amount of skill points acquired your character becomes through the addition of more passives, the ability fill other roles, change play style through the use of different armor and weapon types this is horizontal progression. And it will only continue to grow as more skills lines are add / expanded (Ex. Dark brotherhood and thieves guild) this is horizontal progression, something I already knew but thanks for the links anyways
Skill points are the life blood of the system? Are we playing the same game?
How many skill points do you get by running end game Trials/dungeons?
Most people I know have been capped with skill points forever (apart from some you can get from PvP ranks). I have 273 Skill Points, while requiring only about a 100 (which you should have by level 50) to max. all relevant passives & skills.
For reference, this is how many skill points you roughly need for both PvE & PvP builds using different armour & weapon types: http://tinyurl.com/n4wyk73
Also, you can easily respec your skills (or morphs) at any point.
If you think skill points are what keeps end game focused people around, you are delusional.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
No one is forcing you to play competitively, that's is your choice, that is the way YOU like to play. Just because you don't use the cookie cutter
build does not mean the rest of the raid is carrying you either.
Yes it does. If you deal less DPS than others on a DPS check boss, rest of the raid has to deal more DPS to prevent a wipe. How is this not obvious to you?
If you are playing without group synergy, like heals from Funnel Health, it puts more pressure on the healers.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
You always have an option, I have plenty of NB friends who play stamina builds in PVP and in no way shape or form do they hinder the group.
That's because they aren't playing group PvP (zerg trains). There you need AoE like Sap Essence & Veil and preferably some healing skills as well in order to complement your group.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
Hmm so your saying there is a form of progression in the game already. From normal to hard modes, how interesting....I thought you said we had no progression, hmm and what about when they add new trials with ever increasing difficulty, is that not also a form of progression ? From easier trials to the more difficult ones ?
Yes, there is a form of progression in terms of content difficulty, but content difficulty is not a synonym for character progression when it doesn't affect your character in any form. (In case you were wondering)Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
Went to vet DSA with a sorc healer and NB Stam dps, nuff said.
And you wiped
nuff said indeed. Did you get past Stage 2? No matter, let's not derail this topic.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
You did assume, you did it to me twice already, not to mention the other number of times you have in this epic thread
Do you feel special right now? You shouldCervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
Don't worry I know what horizontal progression is I outlined it pretty well in my original post on page 9. A system that allows character expansion through the addition of skills and passives. So from VR1 to VR14 I acquired a ton more skill points allowing me to advance my character horizontally, you see now ? I don't know how to write it any easier
Ehh... and what happens when you've got all the passives & skills you could ever need, like most of the people at max. level? I'll answer, don't worry. The "Horizontal Progression" of yours stops progressing. Woops... what went wrong there? I thought we had a perfect system
I had 12 skills for my bar & all passives bought at around VR4-5, without having even reached the end game.
Also as explained above, you can respec at any time if you want to try something different (just like in other games).Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
Here is where you are mistaken, again new zones / areas do not create a problem if the progression system is horizontal, because unlike the vertical progression your preaching about it does not create a gear gap thus enabling new and veteran users to enjoy new content simultaneously
Are you saying people don't need to go through Level 1 -> VR14? Because I'm quite sure you are mistaken
If you are talking about the upcoming Champion System, people will still have to do those zones in order to get Champion Points, in fact, them being account wide means people will have to go through that content not only once, but 8 times (with alts) in order to maximize their character.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I didn't talked about GW2 for a very specific reason : this game is terrible and boring.
And you are very wrong about Guild Wars 1, there were many things to do in PvE not only going through the missions until the last one. But I guess you know that since you played the game, right?
And yes, I'm a brand new player (actually played the beta but who cares), doesn't mean I have no opinion about this topic. Indeed I have one both as customer and player... Like anyone else. Keep that in mind.
Yes, you clearly have an opinion about this topic. Yet is it an educated opinion?
No, because you haven't reached end game in this game yet to know what it needs (according to me & most of the max. level people I've talked to in game).
You might have played other games with gear progression and disliked it, but it is a necessary "evil" to keep those players who like it playing the game.MMO market is indeed in decline at the moment, that's even more true for MMOs with the sub-model. That's facts, just get some infos out there you'll see. But I'm surprised you act like you know nothing of it.
There are plenty of MMO and? They just all tries to get some of the cake of WoW's playerbase. It never works. A MMO is released, great, few months later you don't even hear about it anymore. Wildstar, ArcheAge... It's all the same. Been there, done that.
I think the order was: ESO, WildStar, ArcheAge...
The fact that these games keep coming out means that the MMO market is not declining, rather that there's too much competition out there, spreading the player base all over the place.
Unless, of course, you know better than the market research analysts in payroll of these companies. In that case, accept my humblest apologies.
In case you didn't noticed, that was an exageration. You admit it's something possible though, I myself know it's possible. But never got through that kind of stuff 'cause it bores me to death. And I bet I'm not the one these days.
So raids/dungeons bore you to death? Then don't do them. Problem solved.So? Just because it's not the same genre means you don't have to take the good ideas from them? If you were leading a company it wouldn't go far with that kind of mindset. Way to go for innovation.
Minecraft does have gear progression, but once you have the last tier armor/ressources there's no treadmill anymore. And that's a good thing if you ask me.
Yeah, is lack of gear a "good idea" though? For some games. Not for RPGs. In fact, even those other games are starting to take ideas from MMO industry. The biggest FPS title to release in recent years, Destiny, incorporated a really gear focused end game.
By the way, I stopped playing Minecraft exactly when I ran out of meaningful things to do (full diamond armour & epic castle built etc), so yeah... different players with different tastes I guess.
However, would it somehow "ruin" Minecraft if there were gear tiers after diamond, which you could find by digging ever deeper into the ground & fighting progressively more dangerous opponents? IMO that would be pretty fun, but this topic isn't about Minecraft.
7M is an old number, despite the next expansion coming you still think they have that kind of number? Of course not. The majority of the playerbase is from China, where players do enjoy grinding games.
Last time I played WoW (few months ago), old servers that used to be full of people are now almost like deserts. There are quite a good pack of topics asking for servers transfer/fusions.
You just read a number that is dated from like 1 2 or 3 years ago and think it's gonna last forever? WoW is in decline, even with that next expansion.
Here we go with the ever so popular WoW bashing... that game is still cool to hate, huh? And is there something wrong with Chinese, if they enjoy "grinding games"? (Quite a generalization)
Of course an MMO that is running on outdated (10 years) old tech & systems is facing a decline, to claim otherwise would be ludicrous. Still, 7 million+ players play it to date (possibly more after the expansion hits), and that is more than any other MMO out there. So I guess by your logic that means more people enjoy "grinding games" than other games.
Like I said, game hasn't have 1 year old, content will come. I do however understand that people can get bored and unsub, it happens in every game. That's why it's good to play not one game only but others too.
Driving people to try other products is hardly good for business, don't you think?
Since you brought the topic up, WoW actually managed to keep people playing and didn't drive them to try other games, just by having epic end game content with gear progression. Could you imagine just running Molten Core once and then being done with it? Also it would've been cleared a lot faster, like 2-3 weeks instead of 5 months, without the gear checks that it had.And there are better ways to reward players other than gear progression. It's just a matter of knowing how to entertain. To be honest, people played the gear progression thing in WoW for years, and it's getting boring even in new games.
Yet most games (especially P2P, which rely on keeping people entertained for months) release with gear progression. Why? Because it is a working formula.
If you think it's getting boring, then don't focus on the gear. Let it come automatically (like it does at the moment, except you have no reasons to use it). Let people who enjoy epic loot, enjoy epic loot. Problem solved.
Also, you can have both horizontal and vertical progression (they are not mutually exclusive), which many people seem to forget.
Yes, because all MMOs (especially now) are P2P ? Yes?
No. Is ESO a P2P MMO? Yes (whether you like it or not).Well the majority are F2P. Just look up a MMO list and you'll see. Times change.
You commented about the MMO market being on decline earlier. I agree on one part, it is in decline in terms of quality.You totally missed the point anyway : a game that I enjoy to play, entertains me, and still do so yet with very little things. You should come by sometime.
If it was a sub based game, it would have way more updates and contents though. But I'd gladly pay for that.
Oh, I play a lot of games from time to time. Are they sub based? No, I would never sub to a game I play from "time to time" only.
Also, if your game became sub based, it would have to create systems in place that kept people logging in (such as gear progression), and somehow I doubt it'd do well (else the smart people employed by the company would already be making a sub based game around that).
Why I think this game is different?
- TES setting
- Meaningful crafting
- Build theorycrafting that is truly lacking in games nowadays (Hi to GW1 & Path of Exile though)
- Redguard women
- Various environments, Skyrim, Hammerfell etc.
- Combat is not like the usual MMO, you need to target and keep at it.
- Blocking, Riposte, Dodge.
- And surely other things I've not seen yet.
All of these things (apart from Redguard women & TES setting) have been done in other games (the only two which you seem to be aware of being GW1 & PoE). Try harder next time.A big part of the playerbase you say? Why in the Guild Summit they didn't like the Seasonal Gear idea?
Link please?Why many people are here arguing that this idea is silly ?
Oh let me guess... You think a few others and especially YOU represent the majority right?
Bad news : you don't, neither do I.
I think most of the people who have reached VR14 would like some incentives for running VR Dungeons/Trials, yes. Of course the majority in this game is still probably leveling, since the people hitting VR14 usually end up quitting.
The most of the opposition seems to come from really casual players who are still leveling and don't know what they're talking about.You read badly if you think I want this game to be F2P, liking B2P games doesn't mean I want ESO to be F2P.
Going from P2P to F2P means one thing for sure : less content, less updates, less customer support. Look at Age of Conan or LOTRO.
Something we agree on
However, to keep the more serious gamers playing your P2P game, you have to give them incentives for doing content, else it lacks replayability (I wonder how many times I've said this already...)Question for you though : have you ever played a The Elder Scrolls game, finished it but kept playing? Why? Because of mods adding extra content?
Remember how people were dissapointed when Bethesda told that there would be no more DLCs for Skyrim?
I didn't care about no more DLCs for Skyrim, modders do a fine job by themselves and it's better to have the studio focus on Fallout 4 or TES 6 (and hopefully bring a better game than Skyrim).Can't remember any of these games having a silly gear grind by the way. Funny how you can play a game for such a long time without that cheap method don't you think?
In all of the TES games, you've been able to get powerful artifacts (stronger than other items in the game) from dungeons or Daedric Princes, so in a way they've had more gear progression than ESO (when have you last upgraded your crafted item with quest/dungeon loot? Oh right.. Never.)
This was especially the case in Morrowind, where Daedric armour was really hard to find and dungeons weren't scaled to your level (so you needed to level/gear up before doing a certain part of the game).And I have like 2.000 hours in this game, yet I'm still looking forward to play it again once I get my SSD.
Good that Elder Scrolls games can keep you entertained. I still play Morrowind from time to time myself (with mods like Tamriel Rebuilt etc).2 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭Trying to find a few points we can all agree on:
1. ESO has a lot of (great) one-time content.
2. There are few "meaningful" things left to do in PvE once you have completed all that one-time content (PvP being another story).
3. Developpers can't add new one-time content as fast as the majority of players can complete it.
4. Right now, a minority of the playerbase has completed all or most one-time PvE content.
5. At some point (in a few months or half a year maybe), a majority of the player-base will have completed most or all one-time PvE content.
6. At that point people who don't like PvP will have nothing meaningful left to do in ESO.
I see a problem here that needs to be addressed sooner or later.2 -
coryevans_3b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Define character progression in your eyes ?
Have you mastered every single skill line in weapons and armour for your toon ?
Is your toon as comfortable with heavy armour 2h as he is light with staff or have you just maxed the toon for a single purpose ?
Have you obtained every achievement ?
Have you gone from quest A to quest B or have you closed the map and just gone exploring off the beaten track in every area and zone just looking for anomalies that aren't in the books ?
Have you been to public dungeons and helped the lower level people on their journey ?
Have your multifaction guilds organised battles vs opposing factions....or do you just go where the action is in PVP ?
lol...cuz all of that sounds sooooo fun.....no it doesn't.0 -
Vendersleigh✭✭✭m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »Trying to find a few points we can all agree on:
1. ESO has a lot of (great) one-time content.
2. There are few "meaningful" things left to do in PvE once you have completed all that one-time content (PvP being another story).
3. Developpers can't add new one-time content as fast as the majority of players can complete it.
4. Right now, a minority of the playerbase has completed all or most one-time PvE content.
5. At some point (in a few months or half a year maybe), a majority of the player-base will have completed most or all one-time PvE content.
6. At that point people who don't like PvP will have nothing meaningful left to do in ESO.
I see a problem here that needs to be addressed sooner or later.
These points are why I press for re-usable content and player-created content.
Housing, racing, gambling, props to write and play out our own quests.
If Raph Koster is free, hire him! 0 -
Osira✭✭DDduke, you like to twist what I say to suit your argument... Sad thing.
Anyway, nobody needs to be max level to notice the issues about the game. Both informations and the experience I have with games are sufficient to know what to expect. You really think that in the majority of MMOs people have played they reached max level? Nope. If the game is terribad they leave during the very first month and/or during leveling.
Not saying this game is perfect, but it's not bad either, they just need to add content which will come.
By the way, I didn't say I don't like to do dungeons/raids. Just like someone said, you like to assume things and come up with wrong conclusions.
If you knew how to read carefully, you would have realised I was trying to tell you that farming the same dungeon over and over for that little piece is boring. Not the dungeon itself. It's the gear-hunt that gets boring quickly.
Bringing gear progression will only make this game have more of silly elitists , "hey you don't have this? Ok you're out Bob." "Hey don't have X achievement? Ok you're out". "Don't have that piece of gear? OMG Bob you noob! Get out!"
I know how it ends up, and that's with a segregated population. Which isn't fun at all, after all don't we all pay for the same content and game? Why a virtual piece of gear/numbers have to prevent me to do any content? I just find this stupid and too old school.
At any rate, it's silly to add this kind of vertical progression. Even if it's a MMO, it's not what TES is about.
SP TES are not about gear progression, your gear get better but there's a time when you get the best of the best and it does not go further. Yet, it doesn't prevent any player to have reasons to play more. It should be the same here. Like I said, if you want people to have reasons to play, they just need to add more various activities and avoid as much as possible the copy/pasta that plagues MMOs nowadays.
To be honest, if there will be a gear progression it should be crafted with a reasonnable amount of ressources. I wouldn't mind that, but not that rng crap again in some dark cave.Edited by Osira on October 3, 2014 5:34PM1 -
Xeres14✭✭✭I'll argue against the "what TES is about" thing. What TES has been about until now was single player games with various expansion packs and mods. Every few years a new game is released and people are happy.
If that really is the model for ESO (note the emphasis on O) then this game won't last very long.2 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭
I agree. There's no reason why 2 games that take place in the same universe need to be the same kind of game. It's like if the producers of Lord of the Rings Online had said: "Ok, so in the past we've had a few popular single-player games that took place in Tolkien's universe. Let's design our MMOG exactly like those single-player games even though it makes absolutely no sense in an online multiplayer environment."I'll argue against the "what TES is about" thing. What TES has been about until now was single player games with various expansion packs and mods. Every few years a new game is released and people are happy.
If that really is the model for ESO (note the emphasis on O) then this game won't last very long.Edited by GaldorP on October 3, 2014 6:10PM0 -
GnatB✭✭✭✭I'm disagreeing that there's a problem that needs solution.m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »What some of the people who are not VR 10+ yet seem to ignore is:
There are interesting and varied dungeons in the game now (Upper Craglorn delves, Skyreach dungeons, Trials, Arena, VR 10 Veteran Dungeons, Crypt of Hearts) but the game itself offers very little incentive to do these many times (or even more than once for the Skyreach dungeons and Craglorn delves). The rewards are not really worth the effort (especially for the Dragonstar Arena) and you could get items worth more gold by just doing something solo in the same time (farming mats or even just farming a Public dungeon or normal VR monsters). Your character doesn't progress in any way if you do these dungeons again (exception: There's achievements for veteran dungeons and trials that can reward you with some extra dye colours).
Are some people here really suggesting that the game's design should be: complete everything once and then "game over"?
Yep.
Here's the thing that people who ARE VR 10+ seem to ignore:
Many (most? pretty sure WoW stats support that most players don't do end game content) people aren't in a race to reach the end. They're taking their time, playing a mix of other games, not playing as often, etc. They aren't in a race to "reach the end". They fully expect that more content will come out before they actually reach the end such that they never actually *will* reach the end.
Achievements Suck1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DDduke, you like to twist what I say to suit your argument... Sad thing.
So when something doesn't fit in your cloud castle and you find fault in your own logic, it must be twisted? Talk about sad things...Anyway, nobody needs to be max level to notice the issues about the game. Both informations and the experience I have with games are sufficient to know what to expect. You really think that in the majority of MMOs people have played they reached max level? Nope. If the game is terribad they leave during the very first month and/or during leveling.
Not saying this game is perfect, but it's not bad either, they just need to add content which will come.
People leave MMOs early if they don't like the setting, graphics, combat system, animations etc
People leave MMOs at end game if they don't like the end game.
To notice end game problems, you would have to be doing end game content (duh) or listen to people who are doing end game content (me, OP, multiple others who have posted here).
I couldn't put it more simple.By the way, I didn't say I don't like to do dungeons/raids. Just like someone said, you like to assume things and come up with wrong conclusions.
If you knew how to read carefully, you would have realised I was trying to tell you that farming the same dungeon over and over for that little piece is boring. Not the dungeon itself. It's the gear-hunt that gets boring quickly.
Let's see what you said...Gear progression is an old model and gets really boring (you really enjoy doing the same freaking dungeon 100 times and not getting a piece of gear
Sorry, but the fact is that dungeons don't get any better when they lack rewards at all (not in ESO and not in singleplayer games either).
Second fact: there is a large player base that enjoys getting that sweet, sweet loot.Bringing gear progression will only make this game have more of silly elitists , "hey you don't have this? Ok you're out Bob." "Hey don't have X achievement? Ok you're out". "Don't have that piece of gear? OMG Bob you noob! Get out!"
I know how it ends up, and that's with a segregated population. Which isn't fun at all, after all don't we all pay for the same content and game? Why a virtual piece of gear/numbers have to prevent me to do any content? I just find this stupid and too old school.
Another reason why you shouldn't post on end game problems without having reached end game. There are already people asking for "Trial completed" achievements before inviting you to a group.
Second point is, what you may lack in gear, you can compensate with skill. I know for certain that less skilled players will never be able complete VR Arena, simply because of the personal skill required (focus, fast reflexes, perfect timing, coordination, etc).
Getting good gear from lower tier dungeons would only help players be able to tackle the higher end content, since they'd have some previous experience from group play.At any rate, it's silly to add this kind of vertical progression. Even if it's a MMO, it's not what TES is about.
SP TES are not about gear progression, your gear get better but there's a time when you get the best of the best and it does not go further.
TES games are singleplayer games, not MMOs. Of course the gear progression comes to an end at some point (unless you download mods), since more content isn't made. This is usually close to the point when you finish the game, when on the other hand MMOs do not end.Yet, it doesn't prevent any player to have reasons to play more. It should be the same here. Like I said, if you want people to have reasons to play, they just need to add more various activities and avoid as much as possible the copy/pasta that plagues MMOs nowadays.
There's a reason MMOs do that "copy/pasta" stuff. The reason is that it works. Nothing prevents the game from adding more various activities in addition to the stuff that works.To be honest, if there will be a gear progression it should be crafted with a reasonnable amount of ressources. I wouldn't mind that, but not that rng crap again in some dark cave.
There should be multiple avenues for getting the best gear, be that PvE, PvP or Crafting.
How to make it so that you don't immediately craft the very best gear?
Simple, have PvE raids & PvP blue reward bags rarely award special crafting materials, which in turn would be BoE and marketed to the crafters. The trick there is making them rare enough that they don't overflow the market.
Also, to make it so that crafters aren't completely dependant on PvE/PvP (altho they'd likely be doing either of those two...), you could make crafting require a lot more effort (increase normal material requirements by 10x, so each piece of gear would require significant amount of harvesting etc).Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2014 6:43PM2 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭
Personally, I'm convinced that at some point a majority will have completed most one-time content in ESO. For someone who plays an average of 1 hour per day (I wouldn't call that exactly a race), it takes about 5-6 months. All the people I know who have been playing since launch and haven't quit yet have reached VR 10 on at least one character a long time ago (even the most casual players).Yep.
Here's the thing that people who ARE VR 10+ seem to ignore:
Many (most? pretty sure WoW stats support that most players don't do end game content) people aren't in a race to reach the end. They're taking their time, playing a mix of other games, not playing as often, etc. They aren't in a race to "reach the end". They fully expect that more content will come out before they actually reach the end such that they never actually *will* reach the end.
Playing slower than new one-time content is released would currently mean that someone plays less than 20 minutes per day/that's 2 hours and 20 minutes per week (a new update is released about once every ~1.5 months; ~15 hours to complete all new one-time content added in Update 4 excluding the Serpent Trial and the hard mode Arena which casual players won't be able to complete).
Who knows maybe I'm wrong and a vast majority is happy with just the one-time content and plays this game very casually. At least I'm not the only one who's wrong thenSo - most of you - or a lot of you - have played through the first two chapters [of Craglorn]. And those focused in on the Mage and the Warrior Celestial.
But they're adding some replayability in Update 5 (hopefully coming soon) anyway, so that's good Edited by GaldorP on October 3, 2014 8:30PM0 -
Osira✭✭
I have no problem in agreeing to disagree, but when someone tries to make his point by assuming stuff, saying things I've never said.. well it leads to (always) wrong conclusions. So yes, I find it kinda sad, especially knowing that I'm not the one saying this to you on this thread.So when something doesn't fit in your cloud castle and you find fault in your own logic, it must be twisted? Talk about sad things...
Reminds me of how I played the beta a few hours because I couldn't stand the melee slow light/heavy attack animations.People leave MMOs early if they don't like the setting, graphics, combat system, animations etcPeople leave MMOs at end game if they don't like the end game.
To notice end game problems, you would have to be doing end game content (duh) or listen to people who are doing end game content (me, OP, multiple others who have posted here).
You don't need to do endgame content to know what it's about ( like I said in my previous post and of course you didn't read it : informations. And you still wonder why I tell you you read too fast/not carefully? I'll admit, reading and replying to essays is tedious work lol).
Yes, there may be few activities for now, but it will come in time. By the way, you're not the only "endgame player" here. I see some people have no issue about it. Maybe like another poster said, is that because you play too much? And if you don't switch games from time to time, of course you'll get bored.Sorry, but the fact is that dungeons don't get any better when they lack rewards at all (not in ESO and not in singleplayer games either).
So like someone else said here, you don't get pleasure by playing content but because of a virtual reward/gear? Don't you see the paradox here? You ask for more content but all you want is a bone to make you feel good.
You know that real "pros" that you praise so much and wanna be part of, don't even care about the gear hunt? It's the difficulty and challenge that keeps them. Reward is just bonus.
You can get various levels of difficulty without adding some silly gear gap with tiers, and just with horizontal progression. It's doable, but asks more brains and ideas than copy/pasting the same mobs/bosses with same mechanics but with buffed stats.
Why do you think people are more looking for games that reward skill and offer challenges over games with "who got the better gear" that do 80% of the job as in WoW ?
I may be low level/new player, but you seem to forget essential things about what makes a game great, you're just too focused on gear progression because you think it will keep you and your friends longer in the game.
But it won't, since you think it is needed to keep players, it just means they have issues with the game, and that won't change even if they added such vertical progression.
Have you ever played a game with no vertical progression for years? I did. And I got my best experiences with them as a gamer.
Source? Oh sorry, let me guess... You and and few others that complains on this topic? Well that is indeed large.Second fact: there is a large player base that enjoys getting that sweet, sweet loot.
I knew you spoke for the majority !
Yup rng and farming years for the same stuff is so enjoyable. Sweet sweet and shiny.
Another reason why you shouldn't post on end game problems without having reached end game. There are already people asking for "Trial completed" achievements before inviting you to a group.
Second point is, what you may lack in gear, you can compensate with skill. I know for certain that less skilled players will never be able complete VR Arena, simply because of the personal skill required (focus, fast reflexes, perfect timing, coordination, etc).
Why shouldn't I ? I don't talk about my experiences, I just pointed out that vertical progression/gear progression you seem to want so much to keep you playing a few months won't do any good to the game. In fact, I'd bet many people would leave. Why do you think people get bored of WoW and leave ? It just gets tiring to run after the same carrot after years.
Why do you think I gave you examples of games without vertical progression doing fine for years ? You see, you totally (again?) missed my point. But no worries mate I was just like that back in 2007, thinking always hunting for gear was cool and stuff so I could showoff how much of a nolife I was. Yet you don't really enjoy the game for what it is : a game. Something that you should have fun with and entertain you (in the real sense of the word, meaning not keeping you busy all day trying to get the best gear to be able to play contents and accepted in groups), so it won't work in the long run.
No it doesn't, hence the MMO decline that came since 2010. Trying to copy the same thing over and over leads nowhere but to be invisible among the masses.There's a reason MMOs do that "copy/pasta" stuff. The reason is that it works. Nothing prevents the game from adding more various activities in addition to the stuff that works.
Do you know how random companies become great ones? With innovation and bringing really unique things on the table.
DayZ, Minecraft, Half-Life, even WoW back when it was released.
They all had/have that thing that makes them unique, something you can't find elsewhere.
Today ? Same grinding asian MMOs, same occidental MMOs trying to be WoW but they all fail at it.
Anyway, we both made our point I think so. No need to keep debating about the same thing over and over, at least for me, I'll be done here!
But, before I go, give me some septims so I can buy a horse, my feet hurt lol.Edited by Osira on October 3, 2014 11:52PM2 -
snowmanflvb14_ESO✭✭✭✭1. Gear progression
We have that in ESO
2. Tiered progression with casual at the bottom and hardcore up the top with rewards that represent where you are on the ladder
Only wanted by the 'harcore' players who need reinforcement to their self-esteem
3. Solo progression to improve your toon on a grind, daily quest or anything that will motivate you. Not all gaming time will there be a group so this keeps you occupied.
This game has this in droves
4. Interface for finding groups - whether it is a global channel or an interface but it needs to work
Again something we already have that works well
5. Content that is challenging but allows for easier progression in the beginning so as not to burn groups completely - so they can at least have a kill while working on tougher bosses
Again something that is already in the game with not only tired Dungeons but with the boss fights progressively harder.
Seems by the Op's terms ESO is a real MMO
Magic is impressive but now Minsc leads SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!!4 -
KingRebz✭✭✭End game would have been better if all skill levels were up to 100 not 50..V14 Sorceror [Ebonheart]0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have no problem in agreeing to disagree, but when someone tries to make his point by assuming stuff, saying things I've never said.. well it leads to (always) wrong conclusions. So yes, I find it kinda sad, especially knowing that I'm not the one saying this to you on this thread.
Every time I reply, I make quite sure to quote the portion to which I reply. So I don't know what you're implying when saying it's "things you never said". Do I fabricate these quotes? Or are you speaking in riddles?Reminds me of how I played the beta a few hours because I couldn't stand the melee slow light/heavy attack animations.
And yet you are playing the game now, over 6 months later. The same could be said about the countless amount of people who left because of disappointing end game, if the end game got fixed.
You don't need to do endgame content to know what it's about ( like I said in my previous post and of course you didn't read it : informations. And you still wonder why I tell you you read too fast/not carefully? I'll admit, reading and replying to essays is tedious work lol).
Oh, but I did read your previous post.
"Both informations and the experience I have with games are sufficient to know what to expect"
I just don't think you're a clairvoyant
If you have not experienced end game in this game, you cannot know what it is like. Simple.
Just like I cannot know what the end game is like in Rift for example, since I've never played it (even tho I've seen people playing it). I have an assumption (you like this word) of it, but that's not enough to truly understand it.
And if you base your opinions on stuff you read/see on the internet then I feel sorry for youYes, there may be few activities for now, but it will come in time. By the way, you're not the only "endgame player" here. I see some people have no issue about it. Maybe like another poster said, is that because you play too much? And if you don't switch games from time to time, of course you'll get bored.
You see 1-2 who don't have issue about it, I see hundreds who do (actually there were several questions about gear progression in the Guild Summit).
Also, the people who are truly annoyed by the lack of gear progression are more likely to just quit than post on the forums.
Also, as I stated to the other poster, there are a lot of players who play "too much" (apparently), driving those consumers to play other games rarely is a good idea for a MMO.
But since you mentioned other games, there are no other interesting subscription MMOs releasing in the near future, which is good for ESO.
If there were, and those MMOs were to have decent end game experience, you could expect to see a lot of players leaving (not good for business).
So like someone else said here, you don't get pleasure by playing content but because of a virtual reward/gear? Don't you see the paradox here? You ask for more content but all you want is a bone to make you feel good.
Heh. If you had read my previous posts you'd know that there's no issue with the dungeons, rather the replayability of them. If you aren't getting anything out of them, why do them again and again? Also read my point about something requiring a lot of effort leaving a bad taste in the end.
Thing is, people like loot. People like rewards. If they didn't, there wouldn't be quest rewards, or PvP rewards in this game, or any other. They give you something tangible, instead of just an empty feeling of joy that quickly dissipates.
You may not be a part of this group that requires something tangible to remember dungeons/quests from, but trust me when I tell you that a lot of people do care about that.You know that real "pros" that you praise so much and wanna be part of, don't even care about the gear hunt? It's the difficulty and challenge that keeps them. Reward is just bonus.
You can get various levels of difficulty without adding some silly gear gap with tiers, and just with horizontal progression. It's doable, but asks more brains and ideas than copy/pasting the same mobs/bosses with same mechanics but with buffed stats.
Why do you think people are more looking for games that reward skill and offer challenges over games with "who got the better gear" that do 80% of the job as in WoW ?
So you are representing the "real pros" here? Funny.
First of all, that is quite a big generalization.
Second of all, what keeps these good players playing the same content is the rewards from it. How long do you think people would've played WoW if it didn't require you to farm MC/Onyxia to do BWL, BWL to do AQ and so on?
Also, I'm quite sure these more talented individuals do want to set them apart from the rest of the population (see the whole "World First" phenomenon), and what better way to do that than unique (at the time) gear & power?
Also, claiming WoW raiding never took skill just highlights how you haven't played the game.I may be low level/new player, but you seem to forget essential things about what makes a game great, you're just too focused on gear progression because you think it will keep you and your friends longer in the game.
But it won't, since you think it is needed to keep players, it just means they have issues with the game, and that won't change even if they added such vertical progression.
So players who dislike the lack of end game progression wouldn't be satisfied by adding end game progression?
I'm confused here. No one is complaining about the combat, graphics, quests, story, animations...
Sure, there are other problems such as PvP & some balance issues (like in any game), but what really shines through is the lack of end game progression.
If you can't progress your character, why play? I'm currently doing fishing achievements... that's how bored I am lol
And all because there's no real incentives for doing DSA/Hel Ra/AA/SO/VR Dungeons... anything basicly.Have you ever played a game with no vertical progression for years? I did. And I got my best experiences with them as a gamer.
So you like Horizontal Progression.
I like Vertical Progression.
People like different things.
That's all I gathered from that. (By the way, I started MMOs with UO)Source? Oh sorry, let me guess... You and and few others that complains on this topic? Well that is indeed large.
I knew you spoke for the majority !
If majority of players didn't like getting loot, most MOBAs, MMOs & RPGs wouldn't release with it. Even huge FPS releases such as Destiny have started adding gear progression, because it appeals to players.
Source: common sense & 54 days spent online
Feel free to argue. Feel free to start a neutral poll even.Yup rng and farming years for the same stuff is so enjoyable. Sweet sweet and shiny.
What a constructive statement. Have a
Why shouldn't I ? I don't talk about my experiences, I just pointed out that vertical progression/gear progression you seem to want so much to keep you playing a few months won't do any good to the game. In fact, I'd bet many people would leave. Why do you think people get bored of WoW and leave ? It just gets tiring to run after the same carrot after years.
Oh sure, it wouldn't do any good to the game, keeping customers. Who does that
And of course people might leave. People just might leave if end game isn't satisfying also
Who do you market a subscription MMO, to people who never/slowly reach end game and complain about things that don't even affect them, or the people who want content constantly added on steady interval?
Think about that before answering.Why do you think I gave you examples of games without vertical progression doing fine for years ? You see, you totally (again?) missed my point. But no worries mate I was just like that back in 2007, thinking always hunting for gear was cool and stuff so I could showoff how much of a nolife I was. Yet you don't really enjoy the game for what it is : a game. Something that you should have fun with and entertain you (in the real sense of the word, meaning not keeping you busy all day trying to get the best gear to be able to play contents and accepted in groups), so it won't work in the long run.
What, your list of non-MMOs (half of which actually have gear progression)? How are those relevant in any manner
Sounds like you'd be happier playing them.
Also, way to go with the personal attacks
Someone taking video games more seriously = "nolife"? So classy.
If I didn't find video games entertaining & fun, I wouldn't be playing them in the first place. I'd be watching movies or doing something else boring
Some people find just fun & entertainment in soccer (I'm one of them), other people take it a step further and play it competitively.
^
Exact same applies to video games, in case you weren't aware.No it doesn't, hence the MMO decline that came since 2010. Trying to copy the same thing over and over leads nowhere but to be invisible among the masses.
You are talking about a "MMO decline", yet fail to bring any proof to this crackpot theory.
I'll bring you proof to the contrary: Destiny bringing in MMO elements to a major FPS release. I'd hardly say it was invisible to the masses... (no, I didn't like the game btw)Do you know how random companies become great ones? With innovation and bringing really unique things on the table.
DayZ, Minecraft, Half-Life, even WoW back when it was released.
They all had/have that thing that makes them unique, something you can't find elsewhere.
Of course innovation is required.
However, some basic mechanics must be in place for all genres. You should read up a bit more on the MMO genre.Today ? Same grinding asian MMOs, same occidental MMOs trying to be WoW but they all fail at it.
Is there something wrong with being an Asian/Chinese? Just asking, because you generalized them as "grinders" in an earlier post.
No, I'm not Asian/Chinese, I just don't like people bringing race/ethnicity into the table and making it a point of an argument.Anyway, we both made our point I think so. No need to keep debating about the same thing over and over, at least for me, I'll be done here!
But, before I go, give me some septims so I can buy a horse, my feet hurt lol.
Ok.
But before you go, you might want to listen to that Guild Summit presentation about "Skills & Itemization", where it is confirmed they're working on adding tiered gear to PvP (possibly tied to Alliance Ranks) & PvE and crafting staying relevant by being required for improving those items
(Source:http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2i5s2c/media_guild_summit_round_table_recordings/)Edited by DDuke on October 4, 2014 1:55AM3 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Osira
Hey, I am abusing your outstanding post to put a few of my own pointers in, and join this discussing, which other users here wants to do.
I have highlighted the bigger points you make in your quotes. Which I happen to agree with.You don't need to do endgame content to know what it's about ( like I said in my previous post and of course you didn't read it : information. And you still wonder why I tell you you read too fast/not carefully? I'll admit, reading and replying to essays is tedious work lol).
Yes, there may be few activities for now, but it will come in time. By the way, you're not the only "endgame player" here. I see some people have no issue about it.
You know that real "pros" that you praise so much and wanna be part of, don't even care about the gear hunt?
It's the difficulty and challenge that keeps them. Reward is just bonus.
You can get various levels of difficulty without adding some silly gear gap with tiers, and just with horizontal progression. It's doable, but asks more brains and ideas than copy/pasting the same mobs/bosses with same mechanics but with buffed stats.
Why do you think people are more looking for games that reward skill and offer challenges over games with "who got the better gear" that do 80% of the job as in WoW ?
I may be low level/new player, but you seem to forget essential things about what makes a game great, you're just too focused on gear progression because you think it will keep you and your friends longer in the game.
But it won't, since you think it is needed to keep players, it just means they have issues with the game, and that won't change even if they added such vertical progression.
Have you ever played a game with no vertical progression for years?
I did. And I got my best experiences with them as a gamer.Second fact: there is a large player base that enjoys getting that sweet, sweet loot.Osira says:
Source? Oh sorry, let me guess... You and and few others that complains on this topic? Well that is indeed large.
I knew you spoke for the majority !
Yup rng and farming years for the same stuff is so enjoyable. Sweet sweet and shiny.
I do agree with you again, and can be considered bias. But this is a main problem ESO forums had since launch.
The on ESO forums have been so "toxic", that Reddit was the "real" main forum.
Now, ESO is and Zenimax really trying to make it!
NOW, ESO players started to check these forums, and like yourself. Finds quite remarkable posts from players claiming they know it all - And the proof seams to be how many Vet Rank 14 characters you have, and what achievements you've got.
PLEASE, stay and join the community!
Even though, some of your points, I do NOT agree with. You, like many "new" to these forums are discussing things.
Look at the very important guild summit thread. ZOS had to close it.
Because "we" can't be civilized enough.
I wonder if the players who posted complains over not getting invited, flamed and other none ESO things even realize that they are the reason ZOS closed it, and now we lost that thread, where we could put OUR feedback!
Cogo is not very happy about that. I had A LOT to feedback.
But waited until I got a grasp over all the info from the summit.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but enough now. Constructive feedback about the whole ESO can not be that difficult to do?Another reason why you shouldn't post on end game problems without having reached end game. There are already people asking for "Trial completed" achievements before inviting you to a group.
Second point is, what you may lack in gear, you can compensate with skill. I know for certain that less skilled players will never be able complete VR Arena, simply because of the personal skill required (focus, fast reflexes, perfect timing, coordination, etc).
DDuke states, correctly: Hard encounters requires "Focus, fast reflexes, perfect timing, coordination, etc.
He forgot: Team/raid composition, Combat/ Raid awareness, Patience, Adaptation, The ability to overview a wipe and what you can try differently at your next try. And the obvious one - Know how the basics of ESO like how tanking, blocking and interupts, works.
DDuke even mention Personal Skill - which is the most powerful impact on any encounter in ESO. (You need level 50 and some Vet ranks for Vet dungeons etc)
Odd, since all those things comes from playing, learning how to PLAY, and develop YOUR character, which everyone starts to do as early as level 1.
Your first challenge and opportunity to learn all the above requirements for high level encounters is around level 12ish, with groups and instanced dungeons.
Learning and improving your game play never ends.
Even after a decade of raiding, in multiple MMOs, doing "server first" and the like. I always learn and improve my game in some way.
There is a simple rule to follow:
The more you play, the better your personal skill becomes.
This skill have no max and contains more passive abilities then 100 x the Champion system.
Anyone feel free to correct me on this.....
In ESO case, I would add:
The more you learn by yourself, the bigger advantage you get over others who needs "youtube" for example, or any other outside source, to understand tactics or anything in ESO.
The whole Vet 14 requirement discussion
Seams only really be connected to be allowed to join a group? Since a FEW claims that you need Vet Rank 14 and LINKED ACHIEVEMENT to join a group.
(No one wonder how the first teams at Vet 12, or less, with no youtube, did Trials?)
This is true in Graglorn. However, this is a social problem, not a game one.
Interaction in ESO is just as important as any other parts of the game. You can choose not to interact, then you don't get guilds/friends/groups, without group tool.
@DDuke
Hey man! :-)
I change my mind and agree with you, that unless you can get a group, Trials and any group content is not possible.
I just did not understand where the problem was. Since I do get groups. I simply did not consider that other players do not get groups. My bad, lesson learned.
Think I found the group"problem".
Most players do not have any problems finding groups. By Vet rank, you should have a guild, or at least friends enough if you wish to do things like Shadas tear or a trial. Even Crypt of hearts. (Thought, Vet Rank 14 chars, in all gold gear, can do these much easier. As it should be)
Like everything in ESO, it's free for any players to choose what to do, which include not to socialize, but then, sorry, you do need others to do certain things.
And if the only people you can ask, are pugs who demands things from you....well, that's your choice.
DDuke: I mean this, I am sorry if any of my replies was "harsh". I simply did not understand your reasoning. Now I do.
I hope you can see that Vet rank and achievement by themselves is not that important for Graglorn encounters and harder Dungeons like Crypt/Shadas. NOT to be confused with Upper Craglorn. Arena and Serpent trial needs more skill and access to bigger vet rank gear. No objection on that.
That is intended though, correct?
A friendly suggestion
When you tell people what they can or can not do, at least provide some kind of reason. Not everyone thinks the same or got the same experiences.
You also risk loosing an opportunity to learn something new, or make yourself look bad, if you state something I can't do, which I have done.......it becomes hard for me to listen to you then. Which I do anyway! :-)Osira:
Why do you think I gave you examples of games without vertical progression doing fine for years ? You see, you totally (again?) missed my point. But no worries mate I was just like that back in 2007, thinking always hunting for gear was cool and stuff so I could showoff how much of a nolife I was. Yet you don't really enjoy the game for what it is : a game. Something that you should have fun with and entertain you (in the real sense of the word, meaning not keeping you busy all day trying to get the best gear to be able to play contents and accepted in groups), so it won't work in the long run.
This discussion about ESO being boring, has been up since launch. I played since then and I STILL have not a had a single second of boredom in the game.
One reason though, I enjoy exploring. Spending a month in a zone, just to explore every pixel is enjoyment for me. If I get tired or want to do something else, I'll do something else. I missed content! so I don't really understand when some claims there is nothing to do?
I use no addons, nor google, btw. In game journal is more then enough.
Note: I group, a lot in MMOs. All of em. Got kicked quite a few times from pug instance groups, since I am a heavy gear tank. But with a growing friend list of players I met in all kinds of ways. Some even I now proudly call my guild mates and friends. Groups never been a problem. Zone chat works really well to fill a spot, or the guild leader guild i am in. (Using to get people for events across guilds).
"A group tool" is good, but I havn't used it, since June. No need too.
Is it a "skill" to put a group together yourself? Or am I just lucky?
I play ESO about just as much as some players here claims they do. I am Vet 7 and have loads of fun. Um - I wonder where the "boredom" is.
My "/played", says 53 days now on Oghur. I love the game and enjoy my game play. If someone plays as much as me, or "fast track" to Vet 14 and is bored?
Who is really the one who you should listen to in this thread?
The bored ones or those who have fun?
Answer: BOTH!
Graglorn is awesome!
Our guild just started to explore it a few weeks ago. We stayed away from it because of the huge exp, which kinda ruins the Vet content, since you gain ranks so fast in Graglorn.
We have not seen any bugs, or phasing problems.
The zone is awesome! Beautiful! Quests, story lines, cool encounters. Fishing! So much to do! I hate the damn spiders that keeps killing me though!
LOWER, Craglorn!
NOT talking about Upper Craglorn. (Serpent and Arena included) We let the bored Vet 14 "test" that for us, so we get a bug free experience there as well.
One annoying thing with Craglorn, is the zone chat, which looks similar to a newbie zone?
This really gets to me, since I am used to a quite wide, diverse and friendlier zone chat.
Graglorn chat is VERY different to any other Vet area. Including Cyro!
Things like:
- "Looking for GRIND group"
- "Looking for *Insert repetitive killing of the same mobs*, by running around in big groups, just attacking. No skill or effort needed, other then old fashion *grinding*
- Need 1 more for X event "Only DKs in a robe and a stick, Link your achievement"
Why would I want to join any group who havn't updated themselves about the game in months?
Everyone chooses how they want to play. I want to learn and have fun while I am playing! Graglorn is an excellent place to learn and further develop both my personal skill and how to utilize my game play, so I can take on things like the Arena! (Normal! and YES, I do agree Vet 10+ in the team is needed cause of gear you can wear)
Again, I do not understand this reasoning to do something boring and get behind others in skill, by *grinding*?
*Grinding* just can not be fun? If anyone loves it, then, please go nuts!!!!Osira:
No it doesn't, hence the MMO decline that came since 2010. Trying to copy the same thing over and over leads nowhere but to be invisible among the masses.
Do you know how random companies become great ones? With innovation and bringing really unique things on the table.
DayZ, Minecraft, Half-Life, even WoW back when it was released.
They all had/have that thing that makes them unique, something you can't find elsewhere.
Today ? Same grinding asian MMOs, same occidental MMOs trying to be WoW but they all fail at it.
Anyway, we both made our point I think so. No need to keep debating about the same thing over and over, at least for me, I'll be done here!
But, before I go, give me some septims so I can buy a horse, my feet hurt lol.
Please don't! You, and more and more here, as coming with all kinds of views.
We have a community here. Join it!
There are quite a few who do understand ESO is unique and why it is.
You hit the nail on a point which goes across EVERYTHING about ESO.
Including "End game." (Its high level game!!!)
Keep to their plan and make adjustments. JUST like they are doing!
Only innovation and creative "new" thinking, creates progress and new stuff.
If you where not here at launch, its was outright COOL, to see Matt Firor fearless withstand to get flamed by the whole world for not having AH or other features that other MMOs had. Review sites included. They all cheered for Wildstar......
Gotta love hardcore visionaries!
Most importantly 2 things.
1. Zenimax, even while working around the clock on MMO launch work (they did very well), kept their promise and rolled out new content, just like we PAY for. Even if players screamed "Put all DEVS on launch problems and roll back to 1.2!!!". Scary how few understand what MMO is? And WHY should we not get what we pay for?
2. Zenimax completely ignored every single person on the planet who screamed Sub based MMO wouldn't work. They have their plan and vision set.
Zenimax got it right!
Everyone who likes ESO today, and have an interest in playing it for the next years. Give a HUGE thank you to Matt and his team. In some way, he managed to impress or convince the Trumph organization, that ESO business plan was a sound one.
(You need to work in business to understand this part)
Everyone
Keep to the ESO discussion and this thread is one of the better, since like Osira said, reading through all users views, gives you a wide range of opinions.
And not only the few who posted half of the thread. (And the OP quit. Claimed anyway)
I would start a new one, but there is to much good history info here from so many users, which a new thread would loose.Edited by Cogo on October 4, 2014 2:56AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs wrote: »Failed game.
Mind elaborate, cause I kinda think you might be wrong.....Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"1 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ DDuke just assume for a moment that your gear grind wish will be granted.
what is your next uproar? regarding this thread it´ll be the possibility to trade those items - to keep your ego from beeing crushed by random noob #15 buying those items from a nother player (see your statments regarding warlock items) they need to be BoP.
but thats not it - even if your geargrind will be granted and all worthy items are BoP the fact that you can easily equip yourself within a weekend thx to the fact that you can repidly do all trials and the arena you have to implement lockout timers. or your statment "their is nothing left to do after you´ve done the trials x times [with x=avg.number of trial runs to complete your gear set]" remains true.
so as a conclusion what you actually want is a system (wich you are paying for) that effectivly prohibits you from playing to feel entertained...
sorry but that is nothing but insane.Edited by Tankqull on October 4, 2014 3:11AMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1