No End Game = No MMO
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Flynch✭✭✭✭Honestly, the only 'end-game' that can keep a game going these days (that isn't tied into gear-grinding) is either heavily story-driven, reliant on a large injection of the sandbox or both.1 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭Seems the conversation has turned into gear grinding isnt good. Not really on point. Issue is there is very little to do at max level. Certainly for me not enough to keep in the game - even though it checks a lot of boxes. Ultimately if you log on and you have nothing really to do other than Cyrodill then likely you will log back off.
I have 3 days left - logged on half the guild wasnt there (the half that is active in pve) noone was doing much - The group finder doesnt do anything and Cyrodill was same old repetitive linear crap.
Here are a few things that they could be doing
-Repeatable quest that allows you to collect currency toward a crazy fast horse
- 2 v 2 Arena PVP that has a leaderboard
- Extended questline in Craglorn- Upper was pathetic done in a day and really was more like a simple new sub zone - very small and not a lot of replayability
- Meaningful rewards in Arena with ability to save progress
- Global Channel to LFG
- Rather than focusing on dyes focus on special motifs or even gear that we work towards.
I have read posts about we do not want a gear grind. What you are saying is you dont want progress on your character . Notice that they raised the max level twice in 6 months.
The issue is I have already the gear setup that is optimal within week 1. The drops of v14 are rare and behind gated Arena or Serpents (which both are kicking the communities butt) . Already being softcapped there is little improvement to be had by grindng out gold upgrades. Even if I got the drops to V14 (would have to find a group willing to do the content) then the improvement in my tank would be marginal and not worth the effort. So now what?
Why should I resub another month and give ZoS a chance
They havent fixed the following :
- Imbalance between Magicka and Stam
- Imbalance of certain builds and classes (DK like me )
- Exploits within PVP that annoy the PVP friends that are still playing
- NO solo content at max level
- No group finder
- Allowing groups to grind out levels and hence taking away the impetus to group
- Taking away impetus to group without having solo content
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The list goes on.
To be honest within 6 months to claim 750k subs is a failure for an MMO. I know I was counted in that how many of those are never going to continue.
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Stratti✭✭✭✭✭@Stratti
I'm not say ESO have a perfect end game system and yes i do miss solo content as well at the end in ESO but i don't like idea that you have suggest for that will kill ESO for i left WoW for i could not stand that fact that i need to do samething over and over again before Blizzard send out new expansion and also i was get tried of all whine in WoW community as well.
I hope that ZoS also at one point look at solo content and start add that to the end game i would love to see solo and small group content for 2 or 3 people as well for the need to add that in long run if want people to stay around for longer period of time.
@Marru
If I reminder right WoW was not perfect back in 2004 the have same problem as ESO have and the did not have any raid content for 1 st 6 month people was just sit around in IF and Org and did some dungeon or BG back them so yeah no game is perfect it take time to get game right for all mmo have so call "children's disease" at start.
Its not about WoW - I may return to it but the whine as you put it in the community is extreme and likely to stop me returning. Havent decided.
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I was playing in 2004 and really only 5% of the population actually raided. Within another 6 months we had a 10 man raid , 2 20 man raids that people would pug for . A 40 man raid (MC) that lead to BWL and the dreaded Nax that hardly noone did not to mention 40 AQ.
The community then was very vibrant - people wanted to group - world pvp was everywhere and it was really special time for players hence the nostalgia. The end game was defintiely there. Don't forget the server event of opening the gates of AQ - server project and the like.
If we look at the current content - we have 2 faceroll trials : 1 current trial that is tuned crazy with AOE raid damage that cannot be healed or tanked through (wtf is up with that) . An arena while cool and novel is annoying because it takes you three hours , countless repairs for no real reward.
That is it.
The difference with WoW is they have had up to 13+ million subs at peak and are prolly around 7-8 million. With WoD this will go up probably to 10+ million. It seems people here like to bash WoW when it is a huge success and has only really annoyed me due to the community5 -
Marru✭✭They havent fixed the following :
- Imbalance between Magicka and Stam
- Imbalance of certain builds and classes (DK like me )
- Exploits within PVP that annoy the PVP friends that are still playing
- NO solo content at max level
- No group finder
- Allowing groups to grind out levels and hence taking away the impetus to group
- Taking away impetus to group without having solo content
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The list goes on.
Don't forget that this game is not even stable, crashes to desktop and fps drops since first Craglorn.
Don't get me wrong, I like this game but performance and some of the designs are horrible.
Edited by Marru on September 27, 2014 10:29AMMarru - v12 sorc, r21
Blood-Queen Marru - v14 nb, r19
Marek II Wielki - v6 dk, r11
Dawnbreaker/Thornblade EU.2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Define character progression in your eyes ?
Have you mastered every single skill line in weapons and armour for your toon ?
Is your toon as comfortable with heavy armour 2h as he is light with staff or have you just maxed the toon for a single purpose ?
Have you obtained every achievement ?
Have you gone from quest A to quest B or have you closed the map and just gone exploring off the beaten track in every area and zone just looking for anomalies that aren't in the books ?
Have you been to public dungeons and helped the lower level people on their journey ?
Have your multifaction guilds organised battles vs opposing factions....or do you just go where the action is in PVP ?Edited by Rune_Relic on September 27, 2014 10:40AMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited9 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What is this end game you speak of?
On a more serious note, everyone in this guild I'm in that rushed to "end game" quit playing 2+ months ago. 200 people gone. A scant few who are not max level like me still log in.
ZOS one minor screw up: the leveling curve was way way way way way way too easy. The rest is really those players rush to beat everyone to max level. Well the pvp bugs didn't help but all those things are starting to be put right.
Sorry, but this is just bs.
ESO has one of the longest leveling curves (vanilla WoW to which there have been a lot of references to, was much shorter).
Maybe the ones that "rushed" to end game just play more than you? This is coming from someone who is actually an extremely slow leveler (took me around 300-400~ hours to get to VR10 when the game launched).
Do you ever wonder why everyone in your guild who reached max level quit the game? Could it perhaps have something to do with lack of end game progression?
You can't have everyone, most of the people who reach the end game quit the game, that is not good for the game.@Stratti
I'm not say ESO have a perfect end game system and yes i do miss solo content as well at the end in ESO but i don't like idea that you have suggest for that will kill ESO for i left WoW for i could not stand that fact that i need to do samething over and over again before Blizzard send out new expansion and also i was get tried of all whine in WoW community as well.
Could you imagine how WoW would've been if you had nothing to do (over and over) between expansions? That's the other alternative to gear grind, it works for games like Guild Wars 2, which are B2P where players can jump out and jump back in when content is released, but it doesn't work for subscription MMOs where you need to keep people playing and give them reasons to do so.I hope that ZoS also at one point look at solo content and start add that to the end game i would love to see solo and small group content for 2 or 3 people as well for the need to add that in long run if want people to stay around for longer period of time.
I also hope for this. It is healthy for an MMO to cater to all kinds of people.@Marru
If I reminder right WoW was not perfect back in 2004 the have same problem as ESO have and the did not have any raid content for 1 st 6 month people was just sit around in IF and Org and did some dungeon or BG back them so yeah no game is perfect it take time to get game right for all mmo have so call "children's disease" at start.
In fact, you've got that in reverse. WoW had one of the best end game experiences at launch, called Molten Core. It had nailed the gear progression, requiring people to gear up in instances (although PvP/crafting alternative would've been nice as well) and get attuned to Molten Core (this wasn't as tedious as in WildStar, which has the same system). Once you were inside MC, you could kill the first few bosses if you were somewhat well-enough geared, but clearing some of the latter would require really good gear, which you got from first bosses in MC/some of the instances. Last boss, Ragnaros, also required your whole raid to have fire resistance gear, which I found pretty awesome (you could get fire resistance gear from crafting & instances).
There is many reasons why many people view vanilla WoW with approval, while bashing on the current iteration. The game started to dumb down a lot after the first expansion, culminating with pandas of course
Edited by DDuke on September 27, 2014 11:11AM6 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Define character progression in your eyes ?
Have you mastered every single skill line in weapons and armour for your toon ?
Is your toon as comfortable with heavy armour 2h as he is light with staff or have you just maxed the toon for a single purpose ?
Have you obtained every achievement ?
Have you gone from quest A to quest B or have you closed the map and just gone exploring off the beaten track in every area and zone just looking for anomalies that aren't in the books ?
Have you been to public dungeons and helped the lower level people on their journey ?
Have your multifaction guilds organised battles vs opposing factions....or do you just go where the action is in PVP ?
I'm not the OP, but I can answer that
Rune_Relic wrote: »Define character progression in your eyes ?
Character progression is a meaningful way of making my character stronger in contrast to others, able to beat harder challenges than before and something to look forward to when playing.Rune_Relic wrote: »Have you mastered every single skill line in weapons and armour for your toon ?
All except 2H, even though I have no use for heavy armour & sword+shield.Rune_Relic wrote: »Is your toon as comfortable with heavy armour 2h as he is light with staff or have you just maxed the toon for a single purpose ?
If I wanted to, I could level up 2H in a matter of hours (zombies @ Coldharbour), but as my character is medium armour bow/dual wield in PvP, or light armour resto/resto (destro/resto once they fix Cycle of Life passive) in PvE.Rune_Relic wrote: »Have you obtained every achievement ?
12550 Achievement Points at the moment.
I am currently on progress of getting the fishing achievements (ugh...) & collectibles after that. Almost everything else is in the bag (missing some PvP ranks & Dragonstar Arena vet+Sanctum Ophidia). For the record, achievements are not character progression, since they don't really make your character any stronger. They are a way for completionists to pass time, whether they have fun doing so or not.Rune_Relic wrote: »Have you gone from quest A to quest B or have you closed the map and just gone exploring off the beaten track in every area and zone just looking for anomalies that aren't in the books
I have done every quest, collected every skyshard & lorebook, even filled my HarvestMap addon with all collectable harvest nodes around the world and read (most of) the non-lorebook books/journals etc during my journey.Rune_Relic wrote: »Have you been to public dungeons and helped the lower level people on their journey
YesRune_Relic wrote: »Have your multifaction guilds organised battles vs opposing factions....or do you just go where the action is in PVP
Yes, I'm in a dueling guild called Arena. I've also participated in "normal" PvP in beta/early days before zerg trains became the thing, as well as in the zergballing & solo 1vXing.
Done all that, now give gear progression
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP needs to go back to WoW. We need less pve and gear treadmills. More pvp.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.8 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me it is an absolute luxury that you DON'T have to gear grind to play in Cyrodiil.
The fact that tactics and build means everything and dropped gear means almost nothing is what makes this game such a good pvp game and perfect for people like me who come from world of tanks, warthunder, skyrim past in the last few years.9 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭On another note, I don't understand how players burn through new content in a matter of a few days. Is it that some people play 24/7, or is it that the content ZOS is putting out has no substance? I'm at the point where I'm just starting lower Craglorn, after finally completing all the veteran zones. And I've been playing since launch.
It's not so hard burning through new content. For some reason, the only challenge is to get a group going, then the content is quickly done.
Plus not only it's quickly done, for some reason it has very low re-playability appeal. In example. once I have learned that elementals were enslaved and have killed them, I don't exactly feel like repeating the same 3 delves again and again, with some dumb and bad dropping NPCs.
On the opposite scale of re-playability I'd place the "Diablo" concept dungeons that randomly change every time you enter them. If anything, they are always different.
Maybe it's because of the story: repetitive "kill NN mobs" quests are so dumb that they don't give you a "feeling push to go ahead to the next steps and never do this again". In their dumb-ness, people WILL do them when they just have 30 minutes or so to play one day. Much better than sitting 30 minutes LFG <enter Craglorn quest where you never seem to get the tank>.
In ESO you kill stuff and you progress ahead so what's left behind is like it's obsoleted, pointless to redo.
Imagine just for a second: a dumb, stupid daily quest that ends giving you nirn stone(s). That's what people would do without complaining AND would keep them busy. Hirelings are a good concept but are just another shortcut that makes automatic and quick to get stuff so you are left with much less to do with actual gameplay.Edited by Vahrokh on September 27, 2014 11:37AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Define character progression in your eyes ?
Have you mastered every single skill line in weapons and armour for your toon ?
Is your toon as comfortable with heavy armour 2h as he is light with staff or have you just maxed the toon for a single purpose ?
Have you obtained every achievement ?
Have you gone from quest A to quest B or have you closed the map and just gone exploring off the beaten track in every area and zone just looking for anomalies that aren't in the books ?
Have you been to public dungeons and helped the lower level people on their journey ?
Have your multifaction guilds organised battles vs opposing factions....or do you just go where the action is in PVP ?
Doing every possible piece of content in game does not equal progression. If that were the case youd be asking him if hes got all his character slots filled with VR14 toons. And Im guessing even you would consider that an absurd question.
Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on September 27, 2014 3:06PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Thudunblundur✭✭✭Also in a Guild since launch that lost 90% of its original members. Many of them were the "rush to cap" type including some of the best players I've seen in any game. The problem for them seemed to be (a) they hit ALL the bugs head on very fast one after the other or several together and (b) some were big TES fans and didn't like that ESO is not pure TES.1
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'm not the OP, but I can answer that
Character progression is a meaningful way of making my character stronger in contrast to others, able to beat harder challenges than before and something to look forward to when playing.
All except 2H, even though I have no use for heavy armour & sword+shield.
If I wanted to, I could level up 2H in a matter of hours (zombies @ Coldharbour), but as my character is medium armour bow/dual wield in PvP, or light armour resto/resto (destro/resto once they fix Cycle of Life passive) in PvE.
12550 Achievement Points at the moment.
I am currently on progress of getting the fishing achievements (ugh...) & collectibles after that. Almost everything else is in the bag (missing some PvP ranks & Dragonstar Arena vet+Sanctum Ophidia). For the record, achievements are not character progression, since they don't really make your character any stronger. They are a way for completionists to pass time, whether they have fun doing so or not.
I have done every quest, collected every skyshard & lorebook, even filled my HarvestMap addon with all collectable harvest nodes around the world and read (most of) the non-lorebook books/journals etc during my journey.
Yes
Yes, I'm in a dueling guild called Arena. I've also participated in "normal" PvP in beta/early days before zerg trains became the thing, as well as in the zergballing & solo 1vXing.
Done all that, now give gear progression
You sir (unless that name has a ref to daisy duke in which case madam) ....I gave an awesome. lol.Edited by Rune_Relic on September 27, 2014 12:18PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited2 -
Istyar✭✭✭The content released every 4-6 weeks is really boring, and it's far from being a real end-game content.Istyar ~ Sorcerer - Aldmeri Dominion - Savior of Nirn - Hero of Tamriel
Istyar, the old sorcerer from Summerset Isles, Master of the Old Ways of the Psjiic Order and Grand Master of the Illusion and Mysticism Divison of Aldmeri Dominion Army.
Check the UESP and learn more about TES universe: https://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page3 -
Crumpy✭✭✭✭Why not go play something else instead - at least until there's some proper endgame to keep you hooked again?I lyke not this quill.6 -
Skizer78✭I realize you have hit the end of the road with your character and are looking for something more but have you tried playing a different class yet. I just seem to notice that most people that have complained about nothing to do in any game fail to realize that there are different avenues in which to play the game. You may even determine that you like the playstyle of a different class more than your main. I also understand that means you will have to play through the same content again but maybe you can see that a different class must attack situations differently and that might make things less repetitive. I sometimes wish I was more like the people that can play just one way and enjoy themselves but I get bored too easily and must try everything to keep myself interested. With the way they keep balancing and rebalancing I am surprised more people don't have multiple characters to try out how things have changed.3
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Why not go play something else instead - at least until there's some proper endgame to keep you hooked again?
That's a question I don't want to be asking myself when playing an MMO.
Truth is, though, if a good P2P MMO was to release in coming weeks I'd probably start playing it (assuming it managed to grab my attention).
My hope is that ESO will evolve into a game that will keep most players around, even after hitting max. level, because that is the recipe to success with subscription MMOs.3 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am coming to that conclusion myself. Perhaps it is better to experience the grass on the other side, before creating a main.
But then its a question of ..."be one of these 4 styles" rather than "be what you want". Even though we had massive arguments in beta about compulsory classes and was assured "class was just a starting point and can be ignored"Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Crumpy✭✭✭✭
That's a question I don't want to be asking myself when playing an MMO.
Totally agree.
Edited by Crumpy on September 27, 2014 1:08PMI lyke not this quill.3 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭
replace the rubbish of your innitial post with this one and you would have had a flood of agrees ...Seems the conversation has turned into gear grinding isnt good. Not really on point. Issue is there is very little to do at max level. Certainly for me not enough to keep in the game - even though it checks a lot of boxes. Ultimately if you log on and you have nothing really to do other than Cyrodill then likely you will log back off.
I have 3 days left - logged on half the guild wasnt there (the half that is active in pve) noone was doing much - The group finder doesnt do anything and Cyrodill was same old repetitive linear crap.
Here are a few things that they could be doing
-Repeatable quest that allows you to collect currency toward a crazy fast horse
- 2 v 2 Arena PVP that has a leaderboard
- Extended questline in Craglorn- Upper was pathetic done in a day and really was more like a simple new sub zone - very small and not a lot of replayability
- Meaningful rewards in Arena with ability to save progress
- Global Channel to LFG
- Rather than focusing on dyes focus on special motifs or even gear that we work towards.
...
Why should I resub another month and give ZoS a chance
They havent fixed the following :
- Imbalance between Magicka and Stam
- Imbalance of certain builds and classes (DK like me )
- Exploits within PVP that annoy the PVP friends that are still playing
- NO solo content at max level
- No group finder
- Allowing groups to grind out levels and hence taking away the impetus to group
- Taking away impetus to group without having solo content
-
The list goes on.
To be honest within 6 months to claim 750k subs is a failure for an MMO. I know I was counted in that how many of those are never going to continue.I have read posts about we do not want a gear grind. What you are saying is you dont want progress on your character . Notice that they raised the max level twice in 6 months.
The issue is I have already the gear setup that is optimal within week 1. The drops of v14 are rare and behind gated Arena or Serpents (which both are kicking the communities butt) . Already being softcapped there is little improvement to be had by grindng out gold upgrades. Even if I got the drops to V14 (would have to find a group willing to do the content) then the improvement in my tank would be marginal and not worth the effort. So now what?
well my character is progressing perfectly fine - is it connected to a mindboggling treadmill?
thx god no!
what is really funny is that the gear grind given currently is to difficult ("kicking the communities butt") for you so you are skipping it but you are comming to the forum to claim a gear grind... sound s a bit loopsided, eh?spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"3 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭I agree with what Stratti said in the first post. While I don't appreciate that ESO mimics WoW's design (solo tutorial quests* up to max level which you can reach relatively fast, then scripted, instanced group raids for better gear or solo farming to make gold/achievements), all the things mentioned by Stratti are mechanics needed to keep people playing such a game over a longer period of time. Daily hireling mails and a research system that requires you to stay for a few months won't make anyone stay for a year or two.
Solo endgame in ESO, right now, is farming resource nodes in Upper Craglorn (to make gold which no harcore player needs as there's nothing to buy with it or to keep the nirncrux stones to research a trait which almost nobody will ever use).
Group endgame is Serpent Trial (the only place where you can get VR 14 items; correct me if I'm wrong) which is a super hard, timed, scripted instance for 12 players with spell crit builds.
PvP endgame is tricking new players without PvP experience or bad players to get AP or joining a zergball group. Do this for over a year, 10+ hours per day to get a high PvP rank. Or just cheat like some of the recent emperors on the EU server did (have multiple accounts or ask a few friends for help; I'm not going to explain in detail how they get an unlimited supply of AP, but it's not hard to figure out for someone who wants to do that).
I really like the new dungeons and the new quests in Upper Craglorn (the 6 new delves are fun to explore, offer are lot of variety; the Skyreach dungeons are really interesting, too; Skyreach Catacombs is probably my favorite dungeon in the game now; you can do one-time quests in Upper Craglorn even if only part of your group is on that quest), but rewards are pointless (=you can find any single one of them for sale in guild stores for less than 1k gold) and the only reason to do a dungeon more than once is to help friends or just other players complete the quests/get the exploration achievements. Why is so much of the development time put into creating great dungeons that each player will only do once and after that there's no real reason to do them again?
Then there's achievement hunting/fishing. But few people are into that and it's not very rewarding either. I think people who got the Master Angler achievement or have found all collectibles in the game deserve a unique vanity pet for this extra 150+ hours effort.
This game badly needs:
- Endgame incentives
- A better group search tool
- Guild name plates
- Objectives/missions and public statistics in PvP
- Events for a limited amount of time in both PvE and PvP (are weekly trials supposed to be a soft way to check if the community is ok with that?)
- And finally, don't base any design decision on what the people want who still think this is just another single player Elder Scrolls game. These people will all leave your game once they have completed the one-time content that can be soloed and they will leave behind a mess that doesn't work as an online game.
* I call them tutorial quests because you need to blindly go from quest marker to quest marker. If you actually use your brain and, for example, remember where an NPC stood before, you will be punished if you walk back to the same position because the NPC isn't there anymore. The NPC will now be at a new, more convenient position which only the quest marker reveals (there is nothing else in the quest that would have indicated you the new position of that NPC).Edited by GaldorP on September 27, 2014 1:52PM4 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭1) Cyrodil - Cyrodil has great potential to be end game. Believe it or not there are people who like to pvp, and pvp often. Its their draw to the game. There are even some people who like to do the story - and- pvp. By the way, they are adding more to Cyrodil soon.
2) Dungeons - They had a good start with dungeons, and continue to add dungeons and trials to the game. This is often part of the end game experience.
3) Dragonstar Arena
4) Spellcrafting - Develop and learn new abilities for your character
5) Champion system - Rank up and build new passives for your character.
If you look a the trajectory of the game, I think it has a lot going for it. You have to look at the development cycle of a game to have full appreciation for it. Experiencing the full game takes quite a lot of time, quite a lot more than most MMO's I've seen in a long while. The stories are also significantly better, the artwork is better, and I like a lot of things about the combat style.
Having something to achieve and aspire to in an MMO at endgame I agree is important. This is what I like about ACHIEVEMENTS. This includes anything with a challenge. Next you have the Spellcrafting and Champion system which I think both are great. Personally I rather this type of a system to a shallow gear grind where the armor and weapons have to keep looking more ridiculous at every new level up in order to convey their 'power'.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>7 -
Blackhorne✭✭✭✭
No, what we're saying is that gear grind is not character progression. At best it's accessory progression. You're just lumping enchants and set bonuses on top of a static character.I have read posts about we do not want a gear grind. What you are saying is you dont want progress on your character .
Yes. That's what's called actual character progression.Notice that they raised the max level twice in 6 months.
Wow. You got your VR14 gear within one week...?The issue is I have already the gear setup that is optimal within week 1.The drops of v14 are rare and behind gated Arena or Serpents (which both are kicking the communities butt) . Already being softcapped there is little improvement to be had by grindng out gold upgrades. Even if I got the drops to V14 (would have to find a group willing to do the content) then the improvement in my tank would be marginal and not worth the effort. So now what?
Ah, now I see. You don't have the optimal gear; you don't have VR14 gear; you haven't done all of the content.
It's not that there's no gear grind, it's that you can't hack the final leg of the gear grind.
It's not that there's nothing to do, it's that what's left to do is too hard for you.7 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »I agree with what Stratti said in the first post. While I don't appreciate that ESO mimics WoW's design (solo tutorial quests* up to max level which you can reach relatively fast, then scripted, instanced group raids for better gear or solo farming to make gold/achievements), all the things mentioned by Stratti are mechanics needed to keep people playing such a game over a longer period of time. Daily hireling mails and a research system that requires you to stay for a few months won't make anyone stay for a year or two.
Solo endgame in ESO, right now, is farming resource nodes in Upper Craglorn (to make gold which no harcore player needs as there's nothing to buy with it or to keep the nirncrux stones to research a trait which almost nobody will ever use).
Group endgame is Serpent Trial (the only place where you can get VR 14 items; correct me if I'm wrong) which is a super hard, timed, scripted instance for 12 players with spell crit builds.
PvP endgame is tricking new players without PvP experience or bad players to get AP or joining a zergball group. Do this for over a year, 10+ hours per day to get a high PvP rank. Or just cheat like some of the recent emperors on the EU server did (have multiple accounts or ask a few friends for help; I'm not going to explain in detail how they get an unlimited supply of AP, but it's not hard to figure out for someone who wants to do that).
I really like the new dungeons and the new quests in Upper Craglorn (the 6 new delves are fun to explore, offer are lot of variety; the Skyreach dungeons are really interesting, too; Skyreach Catacombs is probably my favorite dungeon in the game now; you can do one-time quests in Upper Craglorn even if only part of your group is on that quest), but rewards are pointless (=you can find any single one of them for sale in guild stores for less than 1k gold) and the only reason to do a dungeon more than once is to help friends or just other players complete the quests/get the exploration achievements. Why is so much of the development time put into creating great dungeons that each player will only do once and after that there's no real reason to do them again?
Then there's achievement hunting/fishing. But few people are into that and it's not very rewarding either. I think people who got the Master Angler achievement or have found all collectibles in the game deserve a unique vanity pet for this extra 150+ hours effort.
This game badly needs:
- Endgame incentives
- A better group search tool
- Guild name plates
- Objectives/missions and public statistics in PvP
- Events for a limited amount of time in both PvE and PvP (are weekly trials supposed to be a soft way to check if the community is ok with that?)
- And finally, don't base any design decision on what the people want who still think this is just another single player Elder Scrolls game. These people will all leave your game once they have completed the one-time content that can be soloed and they will leave behind a mess that doesn't work as an online game.
* I call them tutorial quests because you need to blindly go from quest marker to quest marker. If you actually use your brain and, for example, remember where an NPC stood before, you will be punished if you walk back to the same position because the NPC isn't there anymore. The NPC will now be at a new, more convenient position which only the quest marker reveals (there is nothing else in the quest that would have indicated you the new position of that NPC).
Well-written post m.stollb16. I concur and especially STILL do not comprehend in any way the tight-fisted, penny-pinching rewards or loot coin attached even in dungeons. Why? Why are there not just too few carrots in this game, but literally I see almost no/zero reasons to ever redo anything aside from helping someone else maybe once or twice to get through a piece of content I've already done.
What is ZOS waiting on in order to make a decision to (1) allow players to earn more coin/better loot and (2) actually have something needful and/or desired to spend that coin on?????
Unique is cool. But completely dissolving facets that are proven successful for the MMO crowd is one facet that is missing and fast diminishing said population. Its not the highest priority I guess, nor the most important, but 6 months into the game many, many players are still bringing it up:
>>>"Why not more unique, BoE cool gear from the dungeon content?"
>>>"What do I have to spend my money on? Why can't I sell some good stuff to earn more money? Oh, I really wouldn't have anything to spend the extra coin on anyhow! I just give out stuff to newbies as aside from the new level cap outfits I'm making for my main and maybe an alt or two, I've not much to spend my coin on."
Carrots. Preferrable soaked in good Tequila, hanging high and off the end of some very long paths to reach it. Thats what ESO needs
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I can't believe that there are some that think there is nothing to do in this game. There is so much, I doubt I'll get through half of it.5
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JessieColt✭✭✭✭See while that is great for you your describing a single player game connected online . That what the questing and alts etc do and that is great but it won't hold the MMO fans particular the ex WoW who came here for a change.
This is exactly WHY I left WoW. I have a job. I game to have fun.
Raids, grinding for gear, etc., all felt like another damn job. One I wasn't getting paid for doing.
The pressure to join in on guild Raid nights. The requirement to have TS,Vent,Mumble or whatever flavor the guild used to bemoan, belittle, and otherwise degrade players who were not "up to snuff".
Screw that. I left. I left one of the top guilds on the server I was on. I left the guild where the GM had over 9000 achievement points.
I cancelled my sub and walked away.
ESO is NOT WoW. ESO is not GW2. ESO is NOT any other game that is out there. Stop trying to convince Zos that the only way for the game to survive is if it is a clone of other games.
Not everyone is going to like ESO, that is fine. This isn't a WoW killer game. It was never designed to be one. It is an ESO game.
A lot of people bought the game and subbed for a few months to check it out. They blew through the content to 'end game' then left. Fine. Maybe they will come back, maybe they wont. But this game isn't designed for them. There are a lot of us who play the game because we like it. Yes, there are issues. Yes, there are improvements that can be made.
But whining that this game isn't WoW, or GW2 or any other game isn't productive.
If you like those other games, then go back to them and stop trying to turn this game into those games.13 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Blackhorne wrote: »No, what we're saying is that gear grind is not character progression. At best it's accessory progression. You're just lumping enchants and set bonuses on top of a static character.
Yes. That's what's called actual character progression.
Sorry, but I fail to comprehend this. How is making your character more powerful not character progression??Blackhorne wrote: »Wow. You got your VR14 gear within one week...?
I got my VR14 gear within 2 days, as did most of my guild mates.Blackhorne wrote: »
Ah, now I see. You don't have the optimal gear; you don't have VR14 gear; you haven't done all of the content.
It's not that there's no gear grind, it's that you can't hack the final leg of the gear grind.
It's not that there's nothing to do, it's that what's left to do is too hard for you.
Did you read his post at all?
He doesn't find the content worth doing, nor do most people I know. They recently made weekly trials (instead of hardmodes, which is ridiculous) drop legendary VR14 gear. So once a week you have a chance of getting decent jewelry/armour, that is equal to something you can craft in 5 minutes.
You can get on the weekly leaderboard with a pug group...
The VR14 sets dropping at Arena are jewelry only, and not even best in slot (apart from the Footman set for tanks, and even that is hardly worth the effort). "Ability altering enchantments" are garbage, any crafted weapon has a) set bonus b) more damage from enchantment.
Serpent trial drops useless loot. Open the threads about Mantikora & see for yourself. The fact that Last Prodigies didn't even bother posting screenshots of the loot from The Serpent itself tells a lot...
It's a shame, because both Arena & Serpent Trial are very challenging compared to previous PvE content (I think they nailed the difficulty), but ultimately not worth doing.
Now let me ask you something, are you even VR14?3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JessieColt wrote: »
This is exactly WHY I left WoW. I have a job. I game to have fun.
Raids, grinding for gear, etc., all felt like another damn job. One I wasn't getting paid for doing.
The pressure to join in on guild Raid nights. The requirement to have TS,Vent,Mumble or whatever flavor the guild used to bemoan, belittle, and otherwise degrade players who were not "up to snuff".
Screw that. I left. I left one of the top guilds on the server I was on. I left the guild where the GM had over 9000 achievement points.
I cancelled my sub and walked away.
Sounds like you don't like MMOs. By the way, ESO is an MMO.JessieColt wrote: »ESO is NOT WoW. ESO is not GW2. ESO is NOT any other game that is out there. Stop trying to convince Zos that the only way for the game to survive is if it is a clone of other games.
Not everyone is going to like ESO, that is fine. This isn't a WoW killer game. It was never designed to be one. It is an ESO game.
That is right, ESO stands for Elder Scrolls Online, not World of Warcraft.
But why would we have to kill WoW?
Let that game be, everyone wants to "kill it" these days.JessieColt wrote: »A lot of people bought the game and subbed for a few months to check it out. They blew through the content to 'end game' then left. Fine. Maybe they will come back, maybe they wont.
Yes, there are people interested in the end game when it comes to MMOs. Shocking. I don't think they are coming back either, unless the end game problems are fixed.JessieColt wrote: »But this game isn't designed for them.
Good to know you are in charge of this game, maybe you would be willing to listen to some of the feedback on this thread and gazillion others.JessieColt wrote: »There are a lot of us who play the game because we like it. Yes, there are issues. Yes, there are improvements that can be made.
I don't think people would be even bothering with posting on the forums if they didn't like the game and want the best for it.JessieColt wrote: »But whining that this game isn't WoW, or GW2 or any other game isn't productive.
If you like those other games, then go back to them and stop trying to turn this game into those games.
Usually when you release an AAA title, you want to keep people around instead of driving them to other games
Edited by DDuke on September 27, 2014 4:24PM6 -
Blackhorne✭✭✭✭
Sorry, but I fail to comprehend this. How is making your character more powerful not character progression??
Because your character is not about how powerful you are but about how you use that power.
Because progression in terms of raw power is meaningless when the enemy around you progresses in power equivalently, and pointless when you can already beat the enemy using less power.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorry, but I fail to comprehend this. How is making your character more powerful not character progression??Blackhorne wrote: »Because your character is not about how powerful you are but about how you use that power.
Yet the more power my character has, the more potential he holds
But as you write, in the end it's all about how you utilize that potential and I agree.Blackhorne wrote: »Because progression in terms of raw power is meaningless when the enemy around you progresses in power equivalently
That is the current state of the game, and the exact reason why gear progression is required.Blackhorne wrote: »and pointless when you can already beat the enemy using less power.
All the glory to you, if you beat an opponent in stronger equipment. I live for those moments in MMOs
Have you ever beat an emperor in 1v1 for example? It feels a lot better than beating some random enemy in exact same gear as you 3