No End Game = No MMO

Semfim · September 2014

Sorry to disagree with the progression defenders, but the lack gear progression is one of the reasons I play this game and the reason that even though I played over 20 MMO's since I started back in 1999 I have not ever touched WoW. There were a lot of sucessful titles out there that don't use that mechanic and instead opt for other ways to give people what to do at "end game".

For me its all can be explained by SWTOR's failure as a sub game... the hard core players didnt have that much to do when they reached max lvl so they flamed the forums. Hard core players have that characteristic of being very vocal, and that usually turns the bandwagon to their side. Bottom line is SWTOR had a load of content while leveling, trying to appeal to the casual player that just wants to have fun, but they were destroyed by hc players.

ESO on the other hand started with vr10 and three all alliances to explore... a mass of content just with the sole purpose (imo) of shutting hc's up with stuff to do. You can't beat them though... before the 1st month had ended they were already complaining in the forums that they had nothing to do.

Gear grinding is just a method to keep those players entertained while adding nothing to game, and I for one am all against it. Main reason is that it further divides casuals from hc's. It would be unfair to say this is purely a pvp game but a big chunk of the population plays it and gear progression would kill the ability for people to be valued due to their build and skill and instead introduce a mechanic where people that got time to play a lot would get the upper hand.

As for stuff to do, ever tried reading a book? When the book is really good i read it again, hell i dont remember how many times I've read Lords of the Rings... Games are similar in that way... a good game is not about how long it takes to end but about the experience you get from it.

Thatusernameistaken · September 2014

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

Gear Grinds = boring at least for me, been there done that, I like the fact I am not doing it now.

I don't get it. So you rather play for no particular reason? Just to smell the roses and see the sites? In an RPG???

Drazhar14 · September 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Gear progression? The would be a very boring end game... constantly grinding for and upgrading your gear isn't fun for me.

Isn't doing trials for new best times and PvP end game? But yes there could be more variety added for sure. More activities such as horse racing, mounted combat, gambling, arena PvP, and anything that adds to the actual game mechanics also adds more replay value to the game. The upcoming justice system is an example of this.

The most enjoyable part of mmo's for me has always been the leveling experience though. Making alts is end game content too in my opinion, especially when quests let you make multiple choices. ESO could use more choice options with greater impact to the game world though. As an Elder Scrolls fan, I look forward to new land to explore in the future as end game content.

You already grind for gear with each cap increase. So the game would be as boring for you as it is now, except the gear progression would be somewhat meaningful (as in people with gear would have completed more difficult content than people without).

Trying to faceroll content faster doesnt qualify as endgame for me. Minigames dont quite cut it either. Dont get me wrong, theyre nice to have, but theyre not the meat and potatoes of the game.

I will agree with you that the leveling experience could use more replay value tho.

Except, I don't grind. I play through the actual content. Once I finish the content, I don't care what gear I have, because I'm done with the content. Its experiencing the content that is fun. What am I supposed to do after, sit around town doing nothing while showing off my gear? No thanks. The only time gear matters is in PvP. And the best gear is gained from PvE. Plus, the more tiers of gear that are added, the more PvP will become about who has logged more hours grinding, and not about actual skill.

But yes, I agree that people who complete difficult content should be rewarded with better gear than people who don't. It's continuously releasing content that gets harder and harder to the point where it just isn't fun anymore, unless you grind for super gear to allow you to play it, that I am not a fan of.

And as for getting bored, minigames, more activities, and new gameplay mechanics are the perfect solution. The more variety, the better. How many times can you run into battle, hitting the same rotation of skills, before you get bored of that?

DDuke · September 2014

Semfim wrote: »

Sorry to disagree with the progression defenders, but the lack gear progression is one of the reasons I play this game and the reason that even though I played over 20 MMO's since I started back in 1999 I have not ever touched WoW. There were a lot of sucessful titles out there that don't use that mechanic and instead opt for other ways to give people what to do at "end game".

The fact you have played over 20 MMOs in less than 15 years already tells me you don't like committing to MMOs, and trust me when I tell you: when it comes to MMOs, that there are a lot of people trying to find a game which they can play longer than a couple of months.

Having played 20 MMOs, can you mention one succesfull subscription based MMO that does not have gear progression?

Semfim wrote: »

For me its all can be explained by SWTOR's failure as a sub game... the hard core players didnt have that much to do when they reached max lvl so they flamed the forums. Hard core players have that characteristic of being very vocal, and that usually turns the bandwagon to their side. Bottom line is SWTOR had a load of content while leveling, trying to appeal to the casual player that just wants to have fun, but they were destroyed by hc players.

Is it the hardcore players' fault they didn't have anything to do at max level? That is a backwards way of viewing things.
You can see how that ended up for the game by the way, it went F2P before long.

Semfim wrote: »

ESO on the other hand started with vr10 and three all alliances to explore... a mass of content just with the sole purpose (imo) of shutting hc's up with stuff to do. You can't beat them though... before the 1st month had ended they were already complaining in the forums that they had nothing to do.

WoW at launch had enough content to keep end game focused people busy for 3 months (that's how long it took to clear MC), and by that time they had more content out. That is not because they had a lot of it, that is because the content was challenging and had replay value (gear). That was 10 years ago, one would think companies would understand these MMO basics by now...

Semfim wrote: »

Gear grinding is just a method to keep those players entertained while adding nothing to game, and I for one am all against it. Main reason is that it further divides casuals from hc's. It would be unfair to say this is purely a pvp game but a big chunk of the population plays it and gear progression would kill the ability for people to be valued due to their build and skill and instead introduce a mechanic where people that got time to play a lot would get the upper hand.

If gear grinding/progression keeps an important portion of the playerbase (the ones who actually play the game a lot), how does it add nothing to the game? That makes absolutely no sense.

In regards to PvP, there is no reason why they couldn't add powerful gear that is obtainable through PvP also. Should it require a lot of skill/effort? Yes. You aren't handed out free Ferraris in the real world either. However, before strong PvP gear is implemented, things like AP farming & zerg trains should be fixed.

That said, no one should be valued for their "build", as that has nothing to do with skill by itself. Do you consider Blazing Shield spamming templars skilled when they one shot you for 10k dmg due to broken ability? I don't. I recognize skilled players when they time their CCs correctly, block only important attacks, use dodge roll properly etc, not by their build.

If you are a skilled player, you can defeat people in better gear. In fact, you'll feel better doing so than you do killing a random Joe in identical gear as everyone else.

Semfim wrote: »

As for stuff to do, ever tried reading a book? When the book is really good i read it again, hell i dont remember how many times I've read Lords of the Rings... Games are similar in that way... a good game is not about how long it takes to end but about the experience you get from it.

What do books have to do with video games? We are talking about two totally different forms of entertainment.
With that kind of mentality, we'll keep getting video games that you finish in 6 hours and pay 60$ for.
Good singleplayer games last a long time and provide good entertainment.
Good MMOs, however, are constantly getting better and keep players engaged with more content. That is why we pay subscription for them.
If the content fails to engage people due to lack of replayability, something is wrong.

Even Odds · September 2014

The two things that ESO is really lacking for me that DAOC was the best at are.

1) PVP Rewards
2) Group Finder system

1) The rewards gained from PVP in eso are just so lackluster compared to the realm rank and realm ability system in DAOC its not even close.

Furthermore...There was something about the PVP in DAOC in conjunction with the rewards system that was so incredibly addicting that I spent years doing almost nothing but PVP'ing. I never got tired of it....I had the adrenaline shakes after EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. It was like a heroin addiction.
ESO has had rare moments like that for me, but normally I log off because I am so sick of it. The spell effects noise end up giving me headaches, the batswarm, streak etc...I log off in frustration with a headache a lot in ESO PVP and never did in DAOC.

I really believe if ESO PVP was as good as DAOC this would be all the end game you needed.

2) This is probably the most frustrating for me. I am such a fantastic healer that I did a veteran dungeon last night with the worst pug ever, and we were still able to complete the dungeon just by sheer force of my healing skill level. (It took them so long to kill things and they took so much damage due to not having a tank I healed over 1,000,000 points of damage and got the 10,000,000 healing achievement)

YET....Its almost impossible for me to find a group doing these types of things. I still have not found a group to do COH yet and have been trying for weeks. I want to try A.A and The ARENA etc...

The only way to find a group to these is to go to craglorn and spam it in zone or to ask your guildmates. I have had no luck with group finder to get a group since the very early level regular dungeons.

I don't recall exactly how DAOC group system worked, but some DEV needs to spring for 15 bucks and make a DAOC account and give it a look because it worked very well and people actually used it.

DDuke · September 2014

Junkogen wrote: »

<snip>

Wow. Such anger.

Please let go of the stereotypes, they are only hurting your own credibility.

All people are asking is reasons to replay content, not "destroy casuals" buttons. Sounds to me you have a lot of insecurity issues, if you feel so afraid of a game also catering to someone else than yourself.

Zorrashi · September 2014

Stratti wrote: »

Seems the conversation has turned into gear grinding isnt good. Not really on point. Issue is there is very little to do at max level.

...

I have read posts about we do not want a gear grind. What you are saying is you don't want progress on your character .

I was sort of under the impression that though this game had gear and varying qualities of gear, the gear was never supposed to be the end all be all of your character....rather, it is skill points and attribute points that define the survivability of your character...plus skill and tactics, but that can debated, For me and others, progression of our character is the skill points and the attribute points.

Don't get me wrong, gear holds a big part in survivability, but I never want it to be one and only thing that defines my character.

But besides that, the main issue with many of your suggestions is...they simply are not that fun for many players. Many, many players. The continual, eternal and likely exclusionary chase for gear can essentially be mind numbing to many of us to the point that it seems like a mandatory chore more than a game.

Perhaps add a bit more variety to your suggestions? Tiered progression, grinds and the like can be just like PvE content; all of it can get stale....especially if it is essentially the same thing.

Vahrokh · September 2014

Crumpy wrote: »

Why not go play something else instead - at least until there's some proper endgame to keep you hooked again?

Any marketing guy would tell this is a very dangerous proposition.
Marketing goes at great lengths at catching and retaining customers, well knowing that letting them distract or "go" even for a moment is bad. People tend to look around and then go after the "next thing" and leave the current product when they are given the opportunity.
You are suggesting exactly this.

Cogo · September 2014

Stratti wrote: »

This is rule 1 . How have Z missed this. I am bitterly disappointed with there being no end game here .

Before any vitriol there are a few key components of end game that will keep someone playing for a year or two in the same level.

Not knowing what game you buy, then demand stuff = not a MMO player.

MMO = Have nothing to do about what content it has.

What keeps you playing a game is how interesting and fun it is...for YOU.
Not sure if anyone else plays a game for another reason.

Zenimax have, for years, been lining out lots of the details you are describing.
To not know about them, you have no one to blame, then yourself.

Players who expecting things and don't know what ESO is, are getting fewer.
As you can see on these forums.....while server lag goes up, because of increasing numbers of players.

If you do not like the game you bought, stop playing?

Not knowing that ESO already have content which they do not release yet, because of the 5 years plan, is the biggest reason for complaints.

ESO is a never ending MMO, with constant expanding High level content in several different areas. All this without making "Old content" outdated.

It is not the game makers fault, if you buy a game without knowing what it is!

A few random links about ESO, from Zenimax and other sources.

Info about ESO:
They keep us informed:
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/07/11/the-future-of-eso-panel

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/06/19/creating-eso-veteran-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/09/25/watch-the-next-eso-live-on-926

"End game" - More correct is "High level" content:
This is PvP, which is ONE part of ESO gameplay from level 10 and never ends.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/125176/alliance-war-future-plans-and-update/p1

There are too many PvE coming content and features to list them all.

New Solo zone with its own main quest line.
New PvE group focused zone. Group: More then 2. Including new "raids".
Several other new Zones for PvP as well as PvE.
Several new Main Quest lines. Optional to choose. Solo ONLY.
New features....to many to list here. Like Spell crafting. Pick one!

They are all connected to "High level game"

High level game is so many different things in ESO.
If someone do not understand how ESO works, with already done, but not released content. Why they release content over time and in different areas, while constantly updating the world with everything.

Then answering the question about "High end game play", is almost pointless if you only focus on 1 thing from 100. Unless, of course, you are interested in what ESO is and has to offer?

This is a good place to start:
http://tamrieljournal.com/zenimax-ask-us-anything-reddit-answers/

Quotes:

Balance is something that happens on an on-going basis, especially as the game matures and more and more players get to high level.

Long term we want to be sure we have content that players want to do long-term, with the understanding that there are many different types of PvE players. First, as a solo player, you can of course level to 50 solo, and can get through much of the first “other Alliance” that you explore at Veteran Rank. With a friend or two, you can get through all Veteran-rank Alliances. For dungeons, we have the regular instanced dungeons, many of which have Veteran versions that you can come back and do with a four-person group. We’ll be adding more Veteran dungeons over time. And of course we have Craglorn which will be adding more Veteran rank group content, including zone exploration, instanced dungeons, and the new 12-man Trials.

We have an active desire to improve the reasons why people would want to repeat dungeons, and we are working on this. Honestly, we are always in favor of players getting XP through many different means and playing the way they want.

We have talked about different rulesets for PvP campaigns as well as having a dungeon experience which has PvP enabled.

Question:
So, in the recent FAQ about the future, you mentioned that Craglorn was for VR1 content and above? Is this a typo – can I do craiglorn stuff to level VR1 to VR10?
Also, how do you guys see encouragement of alts if the entire leveling process is doing all 3 faction storylines with 1 character?

Answer:
Craglorn is tuned for VR11-12. (VR11 & 12 monsters). You can go in at VR1 it will just be hard.

As for alts, its really up to the player how they want to play. Some folks would rather play the same character all the way though, others would rather play alts. We don’t really want to force any one way to play the game.

New skill lines must be considered for high level game.

Thieves Guild & Dark Brotherhood will indeed have their own skill lines. As for how they will tie into the Justice… we’re not quite ready to talk about that just yet.

"At five hours the art needs to be good, it needs to feel good when you sit down. Five days is the levelling needs to be good, five months is the end-game needs to be good and the five years is the one you're talking about. That's the magic one, the one that's really 'community'. You're going back because you like the people you're playing with, it's also the hardest to achieve obviously."

"You need to make sure there's something for those players to do that's new and refreshing on an ongoing basis." Firor explained, "So the other side of that is we're planning regular content updates and pretty substantial ones like every month to six weeks - we're working on the actual cadence just now - but we're already working on post-launch content now."

Firor also explained how The Elder Scrolls Online can take the "massively multiplayer" out of MMORPG if players wish to do so, telling us that the core quest line - in which you try to reclaim your soul after it's been stolen by Molag Bal - can be completed alone. It's basically a new, full Elder Scrolls title with online aspects should you wish to use them.

Links:
http://www.vg247.com/2013/08/23/elder-scrolls-online-dev-planning-5-year-roadmap-first-add-on-content-being-worked-on-now/

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/elder-scrolls-online-has-five-year-plan-additional-content-already-development

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127140-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Has-Five-Years-of-Content-Planned

Unofficial sites:
Dulfy:
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/

Recent reviews, which all changed their mind from a year ago.
http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/117087/20140926/elder-scrolls-online.htm

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/09/17/the-elder-scrolls-online-update-4-adds-new-quests-trials-and-challenges#

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/8967/The-End-Game-Challenge.html/page/1

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/8947/As-Month-Six-Approaches-an-Eye-on-ESO.html

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/09/17/the-elder-scrolls-online-update-4-welcomes-you-to-the-dragonstar-arena/#null

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/29/tamriel-infinium-five-reasons-to-return-to-elder-scrolls-online/

Vahrokh · September 2014

Zorrashi wrote: »

Perhaps add a bit more variety to your suggestions? Tiered progression, grinds and the like can be just like PvE content; all of it can get stale....especially if it is essentially the same thing.

There's even more. One is called "horizontal progression", which is cool because it's a gear grind that makes gear grinders happy while not giving them an huge edge against the others. It consists in providing different sets with different bonuses / looks dropping in different content.

About aesthetics, I recall in past MMOs a lot of players would do incredible feats just to get exactly the looks they wanted, to get the unique "red dragon / griffon cloak" that would require doing a certain instance then getting a certain "faction rep" until the reward unlocked. Some of these feats were long or difficult enough that only 5-10 people per server would ever achieve that stuff. Those are usually exactly the "I eat tons of content fast" players who want to get on top or just look better and basically show e-peen.

Basically, there are at least 2-3 categories of players who want to put in a lot of effort and play hours. You have to give them something to keep them busy.

wafcatb14_ESO · September 2014

They should have made the story etc simlar too how SWTOR did their`s each faction and class has a completly different story, same as in GW2 each race and class has a different story .

However in ESO every race and class and faction has the same main story and the same fighters and mage guild quests , just the locations are different due to starting zones ,

There are only 7 zones per faction if you include newb island , sadly each zone is designed for a certain lvl range and there are no other options to go to , take almost every mmo every made since EQ back in 1999 , and you have 4 or 5 zones you can go to in order to lvl a toon between lvl 5 and 20 here you have 1 zone per lvl range .

so instead of lvling a toon up in a couple of zones and a alt in another different zones you are stuck lvling up every alt you make in the same zone grinding the same quest you already did on another toon with no option but to reroll on a new faction or grind the same quest all over , = poor design . very little replay value.

Bad grouping mechanics, half the game is solo based and the quest that aren`t solo , you can`t help friends with almost all of them unless you are on the same step as they are .

Usless Auction house , group finder almost useless it`s like one of their kids designed it over xmas break but had never seen one before lol .

Semfim · September 2014

I'm sorry but I dont know how to quote DDuke, so ill try my best to answer..

First, you accuse me of not playing through MMO's... first you don't know me but gear progression is such a big thing for you are losing the plot, then it was my fault, I should have wrote "tried 20 MMO's" because i know what you mean. Rest assured though I play games I like for years (Asheron's Call, DDO and Lotro all sub times above 3 years.. hell i got life time sub for lotro :P ).

Second, I am not saying its the hc's fault the games go down the drain, but their vocalness sure helps. I'm with you that games got to have stuff to do after you reach max lvl, but there is just a certain ammount of stuff that can be introduced for that which isnt used just by a few people before new content rolls out.

Well, I'm done with this conversation, so ill just post a number of player types that arent abridged by gear progression and that in fact get their play styles destroyed by it:

PVP, Crafters, Explorers, Alt-Maniacs, RP'ers and most casuals. Thats a fan base that needs catering too, they just dont come on the forums because a game isnt usually their main concern. They pay as much as you though...

tengri · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

There is an endgame.

You might not like it, but its there. Vet Levels/Craglorn/Forced Group content.

That is the endgame.

And that really is the end.
Wasted whole Saturday afternoon trying to find groups for Craglorn stuff (that are not that stupid time trials) and got exactly one quest done.
ONE. In almost 5 hours.

I am not at all against group content - but without a decent method to find said groups Craglorn is just a piece of **** and utterly waste of time...

Cogo · September 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

In ESO you kill stuff and you progress ahead so what's left behind is like it's obsoleted, pointless to redo.

Normally I need to describe how 100% wrong this statement is.

Those who play ESO, would just laugh.

Those who think that ESO, which has to many examples to list, have not a good replay value, have not played the game. Or read a single thing, like, why everyone is level 50 and how "old content" never gets outdated. Simple as that.

You are wrong. Very, very wrong.

GnatB · September 2014

*shrug*

Problem: There's nothing to do at max level/Devs are slow to come out with new "non-treadmill" content.

Solution: Don't reach max level. Play enough other games that you never quite reach max level. Fact is, it takes longer to make the content than it does to consume it, which is why clever devs came up with the end-game hamster wheels. Sure, it's in *their* best interest to try to keep people involved in their own game to the exclusion of all others, as that significantly increases the chance of keeping your sub. But that doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to play along. And heck, maybe it'll turn out you like those other games better.

(P.S. As for me, I'm usually only playing 1 or 2 MMO's at a time, but I almost always have a considerable backlog of PC/Console games I'm also working through. Which has actually gotten big enough I've pretty much completely tabled MMO's for now except for the Sunday game session with my Dad.)

Cogo · September 2014

Semfim wrote: »

I'm sorry but I dont know how to quote DDuke, so ill try my best to answer..

First, you accuse me of not playing through MMO's... first you don't know me but gear progression is such a big thing for you are losing the plot, then it was my fault, I should have wrote "tried 20 MMO's" because i know what you mean. Rest assured though I play games I like for years (Asheron's Call, DDO and Lotro all sub times above 3 years.. hell i got life time sub for lotro :P ).

Second, I am not saying its the hc's fault the games go down the drain, but their vocalness sure helps. I'm with you that games got to have stuff to do after you reach max lvl, but there is just a certain ammount of stuff that can be introduced for that which isnt used just by a few people before new content rolls out.

Well, I'm done with this conversation, so ill just post a number of player types that arent abridged by gear progression and that in fact get their play styles destroyed by it:

PVP, Crafters, Explorers, Alt-Maniacs, RP'ers and most casuals. Thats a fan base that needs catering too, they just dont come on the forums because a game isnt usually their main concern. They pay as much as you though...

Wow! Great post!

You know what? I am an explorer, semi RP since I choose race, alliance, gear, build and quest choices by "who I am" in Game. Orc Heavy tank!
I am also crazy for hard core raiding. Love the war in Cyro. Tanking Crypt of Hearts as Vet 4, with my friends who also where max Vet 6, is awesome! Sure..took several days before we got it right!

Can't get enough of Dyes! Love the swimming contents that I've been to in Riften.

I just started my first alt, since I am now Vet 6, from starting at launch with 52 days (played), I feelt I could play my sneaky Kajiit monk. Completely new experince...same zones...but not!

I also love forums, be part of the community, in game as well as outside.
Building and running a guild takes it time.

And most of all, I LOVE the core combat in ESO. That it matters far more WHO and HOW you play, then gear. Level only matters really up to level 50.

In ESO, the only way to tell if someone is good or bad, is to ask how long it took to get to Vet 14. Anyone saying less then 4 weeks....um. They wount be here much longer.....

DDuke · September 2014

Semfim wrote: »

I'm sorry but I dont know how to quote DDuke, so ill try my best to answer..

You can find the "quote" button below signatures, and once clicked it automatically fills the comment section with the quote.

Semfim wrote: »

First, you accuse me of not playing through MMO's... first you don't know me but gear progression is such a big thing for you are losing the plot, then it was my fault, I should have wrote "tried 20 MMO's" because i know what you mean. Rest assured though I play games I like for years (Asheron's Call, DDO and Lotro all sub times above 3 years.. hell i got life time sub for lotro :P ).

I didn't say you don't play through MMOs, I said you probably don't stick to them and I've been proven wrong if that is the case.

However, you didn't answer my question: which one of these is a succesfull subscription MMO and does not have gear progression? I know the answer, but would like to hear it from you

Semfim wrote: »

Second, I am not saying its the hc's fault the games go down the drain, but their vocalness sure helps. I'm with you that games got to have stuff to do after you reach max lvl, but there is just a certain ammount of stuff that can be introduced for that which isnt used just by a few people before new content rolls out.

Players who have got to the end game (not just talking about hardcore players) and seen how rewarding doing the content is, have a pretty dmn good reason to be vocal.

I'm all ears how you are going to make end game content worth doing repeatedly, without having it give better gear. SWTOR, which you mentioned, failed and went F2P.

To your defense, I must state that WildStar attempted to cater mostly to more hardcore players, and it failed. It failed because there wasn't enough content for casuals.

However, ESO has plenty to offer for casual players currently. Most of the dungeons are doable even with the most horrible of groups. Even AA/Hel Ra can be easily pugged.

Semfim wrote: »

Well, I'm done with this conversation, so ill just post a number of player types that arent abridged by gear progression and that in fact get their play styles destroyed by it:

PVP, Crafters, Explorers, Alt-Maniacs, RP'ers and most casuals. Thats a fan base that needs catering too, they just dont come on the forums because a game isnt usually their main concern. They pay as much as you though...

So you are claiming WoW, Rift, SWTOR etc "destroyed PvPers playstyles"? Some of my best memories are from PvPing in WoW.

If anything is destroying PvP, it's Forward Camps, AoE caps, exploits & lag. Gear doesn't matter to PvPers/crafters as long as they have access to good gear also through their preferred playstyle. I don't get how "Alt-Maniacs" & RPers would be affected at all.

Most people just accept that if they can't pour as many hours into an MMO as others, they probably won't get as much out of it.
By the way, raids/dungeons in this game take 2-3 hours max., so you'd have to be a megacasual not to be able do them.

I think you would be happier with a singleplayer game or something like GW2 rather than a subscription MMO.

Cogo · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Semfim wrote: »

I'm sorry but I dont know how to quote DDuke, so ill try my best to answer..

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Semfim wrote: »

First, you accuse me of not playing through MMO's... first you don't know me but gear progression is such a big thing for you are losing the plot, then it was my fault, I should have wrote "tried 20 MMO's" because i know what you mean. Rest assured though I play games I like for years (Asheron's Call, DDO and Lotro all sub times above 3 years.. hell i got life time sub for lotro :P ).

I didn't say you don't play through MMOs, I said you probably don't stick to them and I've been proven wrong if that is the case.

However, you didn't answer my question: which one of these is a succesfull subscription MMO and does not have gear progression? I know the answer, but would like to hear it from you
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Semfim wrote: »

Second, I am not saying its the hc's fault the games go down the drain, but their vocalness sure helps. I'm with you that games got to have stuff to do after you reach max lvl, but there is just a certain ammount of stuff that can be introduced for that which isnt used just by a few people before new content rolls out.

Players who have got to the end game (not just talking about hardcore players) and seen how rewarding doing the content is, have a pretty dmn good reason to be vocal.

I'm all ears how you are going to make end game content worth doing repeatedly, without having it give better gear. SWTOR, which you mentioned, failed and went F2P.

To your defense, I must state that WildStar attempted to cater mostly to more hardcore players, and it failed. It failed because there wasn't enough content for casuals.

However, ESO has plenty to offer for casual players currently. Most of the dungeons are doable even with the most horrible of groups. Even AA/Hel Ra can be easily pugged.
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Semfim wrote: »

Well, I'm done with this conversation, so ill just post a number of player types that arent abridged by gear progression and that in fact get their play styles destroyed by it:

PVP, Crafters, Explorers, Alt-Maniacs, RP'ers and most casuals. Thats a fan base that needs catering too, they just dont come on the forums because a game isnt usually their main concern. They pay as much as you though...

So you are claiming WoW, Rift, SWTOR etc "destroyed PvPers playstyles"? Some of my best memories are from PvPing in WoW.

If anything is destroying PvP, it's Forward Camps, AoE caps, exploits & lag. Gear doesn't matter to PvPers/crafters as long as they have access to good gear also through their preferred playstyle. I don't get how "Alt-Maniacs" & RPers would be affected at all.

Most people just accept that if they can't pour as many hours into an MMO as others, they probably won't get as much out of it.
By the way, raids/dungeons in this game take 2-3 hours max., so you'd have to be a megacasual not to be able do them.

I think you would be happier with a singleplayer game or something like GW2 rather than a subscription MMO.

You are scaring me. You like the game, you know a lot about ESO.

Still you want proof that another game like ESO have made it?
When there IS not other game like ESO. Its unique!

ESO have created a new type of MMO.

Just like Eve did, or WoW, or GW2, or Rift. All these are a different type.

I am really confused. You do know....you see the good in ESO.

But....you asking for another Sub based MMO who been successful like ESO?
I do not understand.

DDuke · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

In ESO, the only way to tell if someone is good or bad, is to ask how long it took to get to Vet 14. Anyone saying less then 4 weeks....um. They wount be here much longer.....

How does this have anything to do whether they're "good" or "bad"?

Yes, there are people who play a lot. They are called gamers.

Not catering to people who happen to play a lot is a bad idea, especially when it's easily fixed.

Let me ask you, are you even VR14?

I think I know the answer.

If anyone wants to see what people think about the current gear in the game, just open the PvE forum & open any of the threads about hardmode clears/world firsts.

The fact is that most people who have reached the end game are not happy with the loot.

Cogo wrote: »

You are scaring me. You like the game, you know a lot about ESO.

Still you want proof that another game like ESO have made it?
When there IS not other game like ESO. Its unique!

ESO have created a new type of MMO.

Just like Eve did, or WoW, or GW2, or Rift. All these are a different type.

I am really confused. You do know....you see the good in ESO.

But....you asking for another Sub based MMO who been successful like ESO?
I do not understand.

Most MMOs borrow aspects from another.

The reason you need gear progression in a subscription MMO is to keep people who are passionate about the game around. If a game lacks replayability, people stop playing. That is why there is no succesfull subscription MMOs without gear progression.

If you have a better way of giving content replayability, please let us know.

Cogo · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

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Cogo wrote: »

In ESO, the only way to tell if someone is good or bad, is to ask how long it took to get to Vet 14. Anyone saying less then 4 weeks....um. They wount be here much longer.....

How does this have anything to do whether they're "good" or "bad"?

Yes, there are people who play a lot. They are called gamers.

Not catering to people who happen to play a lot is a bad idea, especially when it's easily fixed.

Let me ask you, are you even VR14?

I think I know the answer.

If anyone wants to see what people think about the current gear in the game, just open the PvE forum & open any of the threads about hardmode clears/world firsts.

The fact is that most people who have reached the end game are not happy with the loot.

I am vet 6, played daily since launch. Done Crypt of hearts but the rest have to wait, to much to do in game.

The fact that you ask why it would be good or bad to know nothing about the game, other the follow guides or addons that speeds you to max level, then to Vet rank 14, means you as well do not know what personal skill, balance and what ESO combat and as a whole, is.

DDuke · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

In ESO, the only way to tell if someone is good or bad, is to ask how long it took to get to Vet 14. Anyone saying less then 4 weeks....um. They wount be here much longer.....

How does this have anything to do whether they're "good" or "bad"?

Yes, there are people who play a lot. They are called gamers.

Not catering to people who happen to play a lot is a bad idea, especially when it's easily fixed.

Let me ask you, are you even VR14?

I think I know the answer.

If anyone wants to see what people think about the current gear in the game, just open the PvE forum & open any of the threads about hardmode clears/world firsts.

The fact is that most people who have reached the end game are not happy with the loot.

I am vet 6, played daily since launch. Done Crypt of hearts but the rest have to wait, to much to do in game.

The fact that you ask why it would be good or bad to know nothing about the game, other the follow guides or addons that speeds you to max level, then to Vet rank 14, means you as well do not know what personal skill, balance and what ESO combat and as a whole, is.

Why are you commenting on a thread about end game & replayability when you haven't even reached VR10?...

Vahrokh · September 2014

Cogo wrote: »

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Vahrokh wrote: »

In ESO you kill stuff and you progress ahead so what's left behind is like it's obsoleted, pointless to redo.

Normally I need to describe how 100% wrong this statement is.

Those who play ESO, would just laugh.

Those who think that ESO, which has to many examples to list, have not a good replay value, have not played the game. Or read a single thing, like, why everyone is level 50 and how "old content" never gets outdated. Simple as that.

You are wrong. Very, very wrong.

I have done every single tiniest quest in the game, most achievements (despite I am not an achievement hunter, but still got most), almost all Cyrodil quests, some PvP points and AP gear. Got achievements in trials, multiple Aether pieces. Arena, Part Lower Craglorn and most Upper Craglorn.
Got every craft school to max, every epic recipe, most skill lines I ever need to 50, most morphs I need to max and some I don't even need. Can tank vet dungeons if I want or do 1300 DPS on a sorc.

Redone part of everything with another alt and another part with another alt. Including achievements.

Every week (re)doing normal AND vet dungeons with my guild mates. Yes, including the level 30 ones and similar. Done every public instance in game both in solo and in group. Got almost every public instance rare boss. Got most Cyrodil rare bosses.

Am I in your "those who play ESO" group?

Ah, did I say I did all of this in half the time most take to get to VR 8 and playing casual? Did I say I did to VR10 before the sad VR nerf so I actually played hard mode. Did I say I did not grind 1 XP before being VR11.5 (that is, when I arrived in Craglorn for the first time)?

Did I say I took my time to screenshot some AWESOME locations like the Colharbour 4 men (best design in game imo) or spent minutes and minutes staring at some early instances with incredible cross lighting and shadows effects?

Some are just efficient and effective. You seem to be utterly slow and expecially good to bash people on the forums who do different than you.

Vahrokh · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Having played 20 MMOs, can you mention one succesfull subscription based MMO that does not have gear progression?

Define "succesful" please. Istaria is 12 years old, never had a large player base, has no real gear progression (as once you get to max level you just start a new class on the same character back to level 1).

EvE Online has no "gear progression" since a ton of years and is still one of the few MMOs that goes ahead and strong.

GW2 has no gear grind that I know of (when I last played it) and is plenty succesful.

DAoC first "phase" (horizontal progression) was more succesful than the second (vertical progression a la WoW) and many players hated the second.

What do those game have in common? That they are not dependant on gear progression.

One based longevity on dozens of classes each player can get.
One based longevity on being a sandbox, that is players are their own ever changing content.
One based longevity on continuously added content, "the other way" for a theme park MMO to go ahead. I call it the "difficult but healthy way to longevity".
One based longevity on the highest quality PvP ever.

What has ESO? No sandbox. No highest quality PvP (nor it's a pure PvP game).
So it HAS to either to:

- Emulate WoW with vertical progression and FAIL like every single WoW clone has done.
- Continuously add new content: on paper it's the way ZoS chose and a way I really want to see succeed. But for being a multi-billion company, they are devoting really little manpower into it. GW2 is a smaller company, delivers more and it's subscription cost is... well, zero.
That's what bugs me the most: ZoS inability to actually show they are a company able to deliver content to keep efficient subscribers busy.
Does not mean they have to produce more, but they have to produce smarter.

WraithAzraiel · September 2014

Drazhar14 wrote: »

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Thatusernameistaken wrote: »

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Gear progression? The would be a very boring end game... constantly grinding for and upgrading your gear isn't fun for me.

So you raid for warm and fuzzy feelings? No thanks, I prefer progression in an RPG. As should you...

I play games because they are fun, you know, for entertainment. I really don't care about getting super amazing gear, if it happens along the way then great, but what is the point of getting gear if there is nothing to do with it?

I kinda agree here. I want gear because of how bad@ss the gear looks, not because it gives me super stats so I can go be super with all the other super people doing super things that only hang out with other supers because if you ain't super you ain't [snip].

Which is why I've got my fingers and toes crossed that the new gear sets (IE Thieves Guild, Dark Brother, Glass etc) they previewed will be available in motifs and hence craftable. The thieves guild set just looks outstanding and I wants it, nao.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Thatusernameistaken · September 2014

Drazhar14 wrote: »

The only time gear matters is in PvP

If this is true, it's a design fault in THIS particular MMORPG.

Cogo wrote: »

ESO have created a new type of MMO.

Ya, a boring one.

DDuke · September 2014

Vahrokh wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

Having played 20 MMOs, can you mention one succesfull subscription based MMO that does not have gear progression?

Vahrokh wrote: »

Define "succesful" please. Istaria is 12 years old, never had a large player base, has no real gear progression (as once you get to max level you just start a new class on the same character back to level 1).

Succesfull implies that I would've atleast heard of it.

Vahrokh wrote: »

EvE Online has no "gear progression" since a ton of years and is still one of the few MMOs that goes ahead and strong.

EvE online applies to a very niche group of players, and it hasn't really been growing in subscriptions either.

Vahrokh wrote: »

GW2 has no gear grind that I know of (when I last played it) and is plenty succesful.

GW2 first of all is B2P, has no end game, and funnily enough has more gear progression than ESO currently (since Ascended gear was introduced).

Vahrokh wrote: »

DAoC first "phase" (horizontal progression) was more succesful than the second (vertical progression a la WoW) and many players hated the second.

DAoC was a PvP game and had no PvE end game, though it did have progression in form of Realm skills.

Vahrokh wrote: »

What has ESO? No sandbox. No highest quality PvP (nor it's a pure PvP game).
So it HAS to either to:

What does ESO have? Challenging PvE content (hardmode Arena & Serpent Trial).
What does it lack? Reasons to do that content.
What else does it lack? Fixes to PvP in order to have the highest quality PvP.
What are we getting "soon"? More sandbox content in form of Justice & Champion Systems.

Vahrokh wrote: »

- Emulate WoW with vertical progression and FAIL like every single WoW clone has done.

ESO has already "failed" in maintaining most of the end game focused players, since most of them left months ago. It's not too late to attract/bring back more of those players however.

Vahrokh wrote: »

- Continuously add new content: on paper it's the way ZoS chose and a way I really want to see succeed. But for being a multi-billion company, they are devoting really little manpower into it. GW2 is a smaller company, delivers more and it's subscription cost is... well, zero.
That's what bugs me the most: ZoS inability to actually show they are a company able to deliver content to keep efficient subscribers busy.
Does not mean they have to produce more, but they have to produce smarter.

They are continuously adding a lot of content. You might not realize that, because you usually do the content only once and then there's no reason redoing it.

Craglorn, 18 normal dungeons within it, tons of quests, 3 Trials (although I would personally prefer getting good old school raids which take hours instead of minutes to complete), Crypt of Hearts, Dyes and tons of little changes.

That is more than most MMOs release in a year.

The problem is, that they have zero replay value. It might take me days to clear arena hardmode, but it could entertain me weeks if I had reason to do it again. This is the same with all end game content currently.

Another problem is the plethora of bugs & problems coming with each patch, but that is another topic entirely.

Could the content be better? Of course. But comparing it to GW2 is ludicrous to say the least. Temporarily altering a zone and adding one fancy quest keeps you playing a couple of days, not weeks, let alone months. There is a reason why GW2 is B2P, it is not meant to keep players continuously playing it.

Helwyr · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Succesfull implies that I would've atleast heard of it.

Well I would hope you would have heard of Ultima Online, you know the MMORPG that pretty much started the whole genre on a larger commercial scale. If UO hadn't been successful you probably would have never seen games like Everquest and WoW, and unlike those particular MMORPGs UO didn't have any real gear progression.

The impression I'm getting from your posts is if it isn't something you played and enjoyed you find some way to dismiss it as not relevant. Vahrokh mentioned EVE as an example of a game with no gear progression and you claim that's a "very niche" game. Look I hated EVE, but it has been successful and has a loyal fan base that has lasted more than a decade, no WoW clone can claim that, most don't last a year. Vahrokh mentions DAoC and you try to dismiss that as a "PvP game", no it wasn't, it was a hybrid! Levels 0-50 was mostly PvE and initially took a long time. DAoC even tried the content you love with Trials of Atlantis, but it was so thoroughly hated by the majority of the player base they even had to add servers that excluded the content.

Look it's all very well saying what you want in a game, and pointing out how ESO doesn't provide that, but you and those like you need to stop pretending that your way is the only way, it isn't. As it happens I too am very dissatisfied with ESO, but because I feel it's already catered way too much to players like you. I was hoping for more of a compromise which I consider DAoC to be a good example. If I was wanting ESO to be a PvP MMORPG I'd be expecting open PvP with player looting. As much as I may enjoy that I recognize it would drive off casuals and PvE types as surely as endless gear progression and raid PvE will drive off casuals and PvP types.

Istyar · September 2014

Crumpy wrote: »

Why not go play something else instead - at least until there's some proper endgame to keep you hooked again?

That's exactly what I did...

Sablemane · September 2014

The age-old lament of the power player. Well, it's unfortunate you are in that position. Others have offered up the fact that ZOS has some decent content on the way, but this one thinks you will not be satisfied. A thousand pardons, but maybe the problem does not reside with the game so much, but in how the player has approached it, yes? Gear progression is nice. If it is a slow grind, and not so overwhelmingly advantageous over earlier gear earned in this one's opinion.

Stratti · September 2014

Let me restate as the OP - and it is good to have heaps of posts on this - I am not going to WoW nor do I wish ESO to become a wow clone. I just want something compelling to do everytime I log in. If I dont have it then there is no point of playing the game. As it stands Ive gone back to Civ V and awaiting Beyond Earth which is really exciting for me.

Ill keep an eye on the forums because 80% of the game is amazing but they are lacking in the last 20% and that is understanding how to make an end game in a general sense of the word - noone wants a wow style grind it was used as an example of how one game did it