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An Actual Poll About the Justice System
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Akula✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
And I didn't "divert" anything. I put the discussion back where it was framed: if you want to have that kind of system, you need to explain why players would ever opt to take a more challenging option.
There is no logical reason anyone would. Pvp comes with the unknown. You could steal from the same merchant 100 times and have 100 different responses. Pve only you would know exactly what to expect, and how to best handle the response after the first few times. That way you as a thief could plan your counter. Team makeup, rotation, where to take the fight ect.4 -
cracker81✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I see the criminals griefin ppl. They attack a Npc, player kills them and no durability lost. Then they are all forgive? So, what stops this guy repeat and has a friend kill him.2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.
Discuss drawbacks to a pve option -nerevarine1138 wrote: »
snipnerevarine1138 wrote: »Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.
Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".
There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.
And, once again, I'd like to hear why I would choose to open myself up to a greater risk in a PvP system vs. a PvE system. Your argument so far has been based around multiple NPC guards being harder than an under-leveled player guard. But in a straight one-on-one fight, there is no way to make an NPC guard that can compete with a player of equal level/stats.
So don't make the guards a 1v1 fight - as I suggested, they can easily summon adds, a tactic well-used by ZOS in dungeon fights and even open world fights, when they want to add "challenge".
But again, instead of addressing the drawbacks, you have diverted the discussion back to 'challenge" Can you now address the above points regarding drawbacks.
Again, there are no drawback to pve option, whereas a pvp ONLY justice system is limiting and excludes pve players - it now changes from choosing whether or not to commit a crime to whether or not they want to pvp. All people in this thread state this clearly - "don't want to pvp then don't commit a crime".
How can we possibly call that a crime system - it's simply a pvp system.
We've been discussing the drawbacks. If the PvE option isn't just as much of a threat as the PvP option, then criminals will have no incentive to allow PvP flagging. It simply opens them up to unnecessary risk.nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.
They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.
And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.
Really? So why did they just nerf VR because the majority said the NPCs was too difficult? If what you said is true everyone should have been able to go thru VR with ease because it was only NPC. Biasing a poll by saying the PVE is the easy road is biasing the poll. They can make PVE guards have the same instant kill warping to you that admins have if they want to if you so much as set foot in town. They can make them turn into stone giant champions and werewolves if they want to. Obviously they can make them a challenge if they want to, balancing it to the point people say it is still fun to get caught because otherwise what is the point of being a criminal.
Well, I have some... unpopular... opinions about the people who whined so much that they tuned the VR content down. But that has nothing to do with the relative difficulty of player-guards vs. NPC guards. NPC behavior is predictable and exploitable. Player behavior isn't.
Which is not to say that PvP players don't exploit the game. But that's a different kind of exploitation. They can't use the behavior of other players to create an inherently unbalanced situation.----
Murray?5 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.If you don't want other players to pvp your face in daggerfall, don't steal or attack NPCs. If you're gonna do it, do it with skill or face the consequences....
I really don't see the issue with opening yourself to PVP if you get caught committing a crime. People always want the cake and eat it as well...Edited by Welka on July 29, 2014 3:32PM7 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Drawbacks for any kind of PVE justice:
Justice system will be useless. People will team up in groups of 12 and just kill all the NPCs in town, kill all the guards, loot all the containers they want, then drop loot in bank or sell @ fence & start over for hours.
You will see people spaming in zone chat "LFG Container Farming" where people in groups of 20+ go together through buildings killing any NPC guard that tries to stand in their way and loot & murder at will.
They can't make guards VR12 unkilable beasts to counter this kind of playing because it will be unfair for people actually trying to play fair.
Having players participate in justice administration is the only way to ensure that the system is not abused.11 -
Sotha_Sil✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I don't know if you guys have heard about it but ArcheAge is offering a justice system at the moment. I won't detail any further because advertising other games is forbidden by the code of conduct. But the ideas are really similar to Elder Scrolls and they might have copied it.Edited by Sotha_Sil on July 29, 2014 3:34PMRestoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!3 -
dennissomb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Other (please explain).For me it is simple wait and see once it is on the test server to see what exploits there will be that will allow griefers to flag players against their will. If it is a solid implementation that doesn't have these types of exploits then good on them0
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NskDen✭✭✭Other (please explain).l like the justice system, but I want more options(like a jail).1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.
They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.
And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.
They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.
Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.
It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.
It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.
Again, over-leveled characters are an issue in any system. That can't be a consideration when discussing the relative benefits or drawbacks of different systems.
Here's another way to look at it. Say the guards are leveled to the one who committed the crime. That's all well and good for that player, because it's a challenge he can potentially meet. But what then if other tagged players are nearby? Will the guards ignore them? Will they be instanced to that one player? How will that system work? What if there's a vet and a lvl10 thieving/ murdering together? Will the vet destroy all of the lvl 10's guards, while the lvl 10 gets wiped by the vet's? Or will the guards be the lvl of the zone? If that were the case, a vet could destroy anything lower level, while a lower level would not stand a chance. Same thing if the guards are max level, lower levels will not be able to do anything but pay off the bounty.
These are mechanics that need to be worked out by the devs. But for the sake of this discussion, let's keep lvl out of it. And, yes, I understand the complaint against the PvP side has to do with standing no chance against maxed toons.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Moonscythe✭✭✭✭✭Other (please explain).I'm not against the justice system as such but I remain concerned about it's implementation. How sensitive will the detection system be, for example? I don't want to be seen stealing with the same frequency I can be seen in sneak now or be able to be observed through crates and walls with super vision perks available already.
I'm also a little concerned about all the cities and towns turning into wild west shootouts. Even if I am a bystander, it will ruin the whole experience of the game for me. Judging from the glee with which some posters have greeted the possibility of ganking all the NPCs and maybe getting a shot at players by becoming a guard or bounty hunter I think the atmosphere will change for the worse at least in the short term.Scura di Notte - Altmer Nightblade (gear)
Lalin del Sombra - Bosmer Sorcerer (alchemy/enchanting)
Angevin Sarkany - Bosmer Dragonknight
Alkemene Velothi - Dunmer Warden (Morrowind)
Sanna yos'Phalen - Altmer Sorcerer (provisioning)
Cosima di Mattina -Altmer Sorcerer
Naria Andrano - Dunmer Templar
Luca della Serata - Redguard Templar1 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.If there's a jail, there also should be a penalty like getting your weapons confiscated and stored in a guarded container at the entrance of the jail.2
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yarnevk✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.
How exactly does having a PVE version of the same system infringe on PVP players. Those who choose it was never going to play in your PVP instance in the first place, they are not going to overcome their objections to playing PVP simply for 'content'. You are not lacking in PVP population because of it, you are not lacking in dev resources because they added a no PVP option to an instance. In fact they are expanding their market for content by allowing all players to play it be that a PVP or PVE choices, which can only increase overall subs. They can take the entire game tomorrow just like many MMO and changing the server login choice to NA-PVP or NA-PVE or EU-PVP and EU-PVE and no PVE player would even care, so PVP players should not be concerned that PVE players be given choices.Would you further infringe on PVP interest by demanding a PVE version of what's being made for PVP players?
Edited by yarnevk on July 29, 2014 3:55PM2 -
Hamfast✭✭✭✭✭Other (please explain).First, I dislike PvP to a point that if I am forced to do it, I will find another game to play...
We have seen a presentation on the Justice System, we have read statements and blogs about the Justice System, we have been told all sorts of things about the Justice System... mostly by folks that know just as much as we do...
I chose "Other" because we really don't know how the Justice System will be implemented, we do not know for sure what holes the Griefers will find in the system, we do not know what the developers will do with or to stop Griefing... thus, I reserve the right to like, dislike, whine, complain, praise and ignore the Justice System once it has been implemented.Of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most...5 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.
Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.
They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.
And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.
They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.
Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.
It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.
It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.
Again, over-leveled characters are an issue in any system. That can't be a consideration when discussing the relative benefits or drawbacks of different systems.
Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".
There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.
Wait wait wait... When did they say it was PvP only? Where is that option in this discussion?
Edited by Shunravi on July 29, 2014 3:56PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Give the cry babies to option to opt out from the justice system and in the meantime deny them access to all barrels, baskets, bags, wardrobe, cabinets, desk, urns... in Nirn. If they want food, crafting mats and motifs, they'll have to go through the auction house. The economy will be healthier and the people who don't want MMO features in an MMO will be happy. Win/win5
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.Wait wait wait... When did they say it was PvP only?
When they talked about it recently. The justice system is pvp-only. You might steal or kill NPCs, but if you get a bounty you open yourself up to pvp actions and player guards can attack and kill you.
People are asking for a pve option, where you can only get hunted by NPC guards.
They could also add an option to make the whole thing pve by getting player guards to hunt NPC thieves and murderers, and player criminals could get nabbed by NPC guards...this would also be a nice addition to the game because players could then be on the lawful side and only need to pve through it.6 -
Halorin✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.
How exactly does having a PVE version of the same system infringe on PVP players. Those who choose it was never going to play in your PVP instance in the first place, they are not going to overcome their objections to playing PVP simply for 'content'. You are not lacking in PVP population because of it, you are not lacking in dev resources because they added a no PVP option to an instance. In fact they are expanding their market for content by allowing all players to play it be that a PVP or PVE choices, which can only increase overall subs. They can take the entire game tomorrow just like many MMO and changing the server login choice to NA-PVP or NA-PVE or EU-PVP and EU-PVE and no PVE player would even care, so PVP players should not be concerned that PVE players be given choices.Would you further infringe on PVP interest by demanding a PVE version of what's being made for PVP players?
Because people will choose the path of least resistance. Unless there are some overwhelming incentives to risk PVP interaction, players will not do it, meaning the players who want to play guards have a significantly reduced pool of criminals to go after, to the point that side of the law has no representation or value.
The only way it might work is for the PVP 'version' to have rewards so much more worthwhile that the PVE 'version' would have rewards that seemed like a pittance in comparison. I'd actually be alright with them making PVE version rewards next to worthless to give people incentive to take a risk and be part of the community.
Because if there ever becomes a PVE version that's worthwhile, you'll see what a poster above me mentioned where folks just form open hunting parties and group up to kill NPCs in a large group and then they just ransack everything while player guards get to stand there and watch helplessly.
Not sure if you've just failed to notice, but the developers are trying to blend PVP and PVE gameplay dynamics. The Imperial City and the proposed justice system are proof of that. So your notion of segregation is going to look archaic to those who agree with the direction the developers are taking the game.
I'm really pleased with the result of this poll so far. Some of the folks who have been claiming to represent the entire PVE population have less of a leg to stand on than they already did.
7 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.I'm really pleased with the result of this poll so far. Some of the folks who have been claiming to represent the entire PVE population have less of a leg to stand on than they already did.
Nah this poll was rigged, was filled with YES votes within two minutes of going up, OP got his guild to vote. This is why I'm going to let this thread sink.8 -
Halorin✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I'm really pleased with the result of this poll so far. Some of the folks who have been claiming to represent the entire PVE population have less of a leg to stand on than they already did.
Nah this poll was rigged, was filled with YES votes within two minutes of going up, OP got his guild to vote. This is why I'm going to let this thread sink.
I'm even more pleased to see your pledge of no longer posting here. And humored by your conspiracy theories. You should get the mass of people you apparently represent to come here and vote accordingly, since you speak for so many people.
I'd 'let a thread sink' too if I found out I was flatly in the minority after I claimed to represent so many people.7 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I really don't understand what's the big deal of having players helping guards except the fact people won't be able to abuse the system. Whether a player or a guard kills you, results is the same. The only difference is that with a player it's actually totally random. If no PC guards are around or they are low level, then you can escape or fight your way out. If you're unlucky and player guards spot you ane they are better than you, you die.
All this only happens if you're too greedy and get caught.
So much fuss for something that prolly won't happen that often and for what the result is suposed to be the same if it's PVE or PVP...2 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I'm really pleased with the result of this poll so far. Some of the folks who have been claiming to represent the entire PVE population have less of a leg to stand on than they already did.
Nah this poll was rigged, was filled with YES votes within two minutes of going up, OP got his guild to vote. This is why I'm going to let this thread sink.
It's a conspiracy!!! -_-3 -
Halorin✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.When they talked about it recently. The justice system is pvp-only.
There is no quote from any developer to back this that I've seen. They have not released any details on the specifics of PVP involvement in the justice system, so you are making more baseless claims to try to establish a foothold for your 'argument'.
4 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Wait wait wait... When did they say it was PvP only?
When they talked about it recently. The justice system is pvp-only. You might steal or kill NPCs, but if you get a bounty you open yourself up to pvp actions and player guards can attack and kill you.
People are asking for a pve option, where you can only get hunted by NPC guards.
They could also add an option to make the whole thing pve by getting player guards to hunt NPC thieves and murderers, and player criminals could get nabbed by NPC guards...this would also be a nice addition to the game because players could then be on the lawful side and only need to pve through it.
I must have heard a completely different discussion then. Because from what I heard, npc guards will be the majority, with player guards stepping in past a certain level of infamy.
In other words, do you have your facts straight, and are we even arguing the same point?Edited by Shunravi on July 29, 2014 4:21PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!6 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Wait wait wait... When did they say it was PvP only?
When they talked about it recently. The justice system is pvp-only. You might steal or kill NPCs, but if you get a bounty you open yourself up to pvp actions and player guards can attack and kill you.
People are asking for a pve option, where you can only get hunted by NPC guards.
They could also add an option to make the whole thing pve by getting player guards to hunt NPC thieves and murderers, and player criminals could get nabbed by NPC guards...this would also be a nice addition to the game because players could then be on the lawful side and only need to pve through it.
I must have heard a completely different discussion then. Because from what I heard, npc guards will be the majority, with player guards stepping in past a certain level of infamy.
This is exactly what was said. Thanks for wording it right
4 -
Badh0rse✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.JS sounds awesome but I worry about how easy it may be to abuse the system. I know that if the rewards are good enough my friends and I will be those jerks trading kills ... not even ashamed to admit it. Who doesn't want free awesome stuff?The Evil League of Evil2 -
cracker81✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I just hope they do it right. No draw backs if a player kills you.3
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yarnevk✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.Because if there ever becomes a PVE version that's worthwhile, you'll see what a poster above me mentioned where folks just form open hunting parties and group up to kill NPCs in a large group and then they just ransack everything while player guards get to stand there and watch helplessly.
The game is phased instances much like anyother modern MMO, if ZOS does not want that to be visible outside your groups instance nobody will ever see it. And if groups find it fun to totally destroy towns like they did in single player, let them suffer the PVE or PVP ramifications as they choose. PVP guards would never see PVE criminals they would only see PVP criminals, PVE players would only ever see PVE guards. All because of this magic technology called phased instances.
PVE criminality can be written to be phased instances so that it does not affect anyones gameplay, nobody should ever be able to grief a banker NPC and prevent someone else from banking. Town murder can be instanced just like it is already in quested murders, and thievery already IS instanced containers, I cannot deny your stealing by getting to the container before you. The job of moral judge on griefing gameplay is for the admins, it is not for PVP players to judge that I deserve PVP punishment for my PVE crimes especially when my behavior impacts nobody but myself.
The fact is if PVE players do not want to play with you they will not, so making PVP mandatory will not change your population at all. If indeed you worry about fence setters than the way to get them into PVP is to reward them for doing PVP, not by having mandatory PVP. That is why Cyroldil has PVE in it, if I feel I lack skill shards I can go risk it, if I feel I am fine with my skills and do not like PVP I will not go. If demand is so high because human AI is more fun than NPC then people will want to play PVP because it is higher skilled combat, then there will be plenty of PVP criminals for PVP guards to chase simply because it will be the only way in the game to say I want to PVP right here and now. Of course they could do the same thing with player flags that do not even involve criminal systems at all.
Edited by yarnevk on July 29, 2014 4:38PM4 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I'm really pleased with the result of this poll so far. Some of the folks who have been claiming to represent the entire PVE population have less of a leg to stand on than they already did.
Nah this poll was rigged, was filled with YES votes within two minutes of going up, OP got his guild to vote. This is why I'm going to let this thread sink.
It's a conspiracy!!! -_-
It's true. I'm a member of the Illumi-mason-templar-nati, and I rigged the results to have a bunch of people I've never met agree with me. That's why I also phrased the options so objectively. It was all a trick! A ruse! Muahahahahaha!----
Murray?4 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.So, basically PvP is being forced on PvE players.
Even if we are not involved because we did not steal, we still have to deal with it. As in NPCs being killed in front of us as we talk to them, bankers and merchants cutting out of the trade windows as they cower or react.
I will have to spend all my time looking for the empty towns to try and avoid this.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"9 -
Halorin✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Because if there ever becomes a PVE version that's worthwhile, you'll see what a poster above me mentioned where folks just form open hunting parties and group up to kill NPCs in a large group and then they just ransack everything while player guards get to stand there and watch helplessly.
The game is phased instances much like anyother modern MMO, if ZOS does not want that to be visible outside your groups instance nobody will ever see it. And if groups find it fun to totally destroy towns like they did in single player, let them suffer the PVE or PVP ramifications as they choose. PVP guards would never see PVE criminals they would only see PVP criminals, PVE players would only ever see PVE guards. All because of this magic technology called phased instances.
PVE criminality can be written to be phased instances so that it does not affect anyones gameplay, nobody should ever be able to grief a banker NPC and prevent someone else from banking. Town murder can be instanced just like it is already in quested murders, and thievery already IS instanced containers, I cannot deny your stealing by getting to the container before you. The job of moral judge on griefing gameplay is for the admins, it is not for PVP players to judge that I deserve PVP punishment for my PVE crimes especially when my behavior impacts nobody but myself.
The fact is if PVE players do not want to play with you they will not, so making PVP mandatory will not change your population at all. If indeed you worry about fence setters than the way to get them into PVP is to reward them for doing PVP, not by having mandatory PVP. That is why Cyroldil has PVE in it, if I feel I lack skill shards I can go risk it, if I feel I am fine with my skills and do not like PVP I will not go. If demand is so high because human AI is more fun than NPC then people will want to play PVP because it is higher skilled combat, then there will be plenty of PVP criminals for PVP guards to chase simply because it will be the only way in the game to say I want to PVP right here and now. Of course they could do the same thing with player flags that do not even involve criminal systems at all.
You're the one saying there's a separation of PVP and PVE crimes. Your outlook, to me, is flawed. There are no PVP crimes. You either steal or kill people in towns or you don't. Your want for it to be a PVE activity is making you blind to the fact that the developers see the acting of killing people in towns or stealing from them is an activity without a play style designation.
ZOS does, in fact, want player guards to see it. If they didn't, Paul Sage wouldn't have said what he said at the Future of ESO presentation.
ZOS said that preferred phasing was not possible back when roleplayers like myself wanted a separate instance for technical reasons, so I wold not get your hopes up on them making this possible now.
Like I said, I'm all for making rewards for criminal activities that involve other players worth the added risk, so long as the activities that don't are significantly less, but the developers evidently don't want or see a separation of PVE and PVP when it comes to the justice system.
If you want to talk facts we know this:
-PVP -WILL- have a role in the justice system
-A core reason for this fact is because the developers know players will just exploit or circumvent NPC guards
We have no idea to what extent, or how the act of open world stealing correlates to the two upcoming guilds, or how often a player criminal would even see a player guard.
So a lot of this grandstanding and doom/gloom talk is completely without foundation because none of the pertinent facts have been expressed.
Are you prepared to not get your way? Because it's a very likely possibility. This poll suggests plenty of people are happy with what's been revealed, so you may find yourself in the vocal minority.
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