What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

Malpherian

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

It's already been stated that NPC's will be phased, so if you kill a quest giver, it'll be dead on your game perma like. But on mine it will still be there.

So the only people these individuals like you mentioned will be hurting is well... themselves.

AlexDougherty

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

The mistake wow made was allowing quest NPCs and vendor NPCs to be killed. Naturally this was a big problem when lowbies had no vendors or NPCs to turn in quests.

There are countless NPCs in ESO that are there for fluff. All they have to do is make sure that relevant NPCs are unkillable.

Bards, for example, I would be a lot happier if I could kill Bards, I don't want to kill any other NPCs, just the Bards.

I really avoid fighting other players when possible , but you , you i will kill :P.

Just so long as I get to shut the bard up first,

frankuguzzb16_ESO

babylon wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

Assuming that:
1) that the NPC can die.

Just that the banker is reactive is enough of an issue (let alone him also being attackable) - we'll be getting booted out of the bank screen every time someone attacks the banker or any nearby NPC. Like banking isn't already enough of a pain...

And then, the crowd will dismember the attacker lol

AlexDougherty

frankuguzzb16_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

Assuming that:
1) that the NPC can die.

Just that the banker is reactive is enough of an issue (let alone him also being attackable) - we'll be getting booted out of the bank screen every time someone attacks the banker or any nearby NPC. Like banking isn't already enough of a pain...

And then, the crowd will dismember the attacker lol

No, ZOS will make sure important NPCs can't be attacked for this reason.

Bankers, quest givers, vendors, and important NPCs will be immune from this killing system. They where in Skyrim, and there is no reason to make them vulnerable.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Malpherian wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

It's already been stated that NPC's will be phased,

Stated by whom and where? I've seen nothing hinting at this in the 'green' posts or the PR Q&As recently.

rotiferuk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

Just like you did with the improved lighting patch?

SirJesto

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yeah because the Devs have no idea what has been done in the past by other companies...Right.

khele23eb17_ESO

SirJesto wrote: »

Yeah because the Devs have no idea what has been done in the past by other companies...Right.

Looking at some of their design choices...

Hilgara

These kind of unscripted cluster***ks are always fun though. It's not like they happen all the time and they often result in some fantastic epic battles what put the usual PvP to shame.

Sindala

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

NO!!!!! PLEASE let me kill Razum-dar. That smug kitty needs a lesson in humility

Akiainavas

I highly oppose world PvP. How is ZeniMax going to solve this issue ? Are they going to introduce PvP and PvE realms ? If not, as soon as some id... will interrupt my gameplay, quests etc. i will cancel my sub.

Overreaction ? Maybe. But look what happens in WoW for example, good luck even entering a town without being killed over and over again by roof campers.

So will it be like that then ? Shoving PvP up our throats ? I pay for the game and want to enjoy it, not being constantly annoyed that I cannot finish my quests because some bored *** killed the NPCs or being unable to access my bank etc.

wrlifeboil

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Do you play WoW? Hardly anyone kills the npcs in Crossroads or Tarren's Mill anymore even on pvp realms and Southshore doesn't exist anymore as a spot for pvp. The WoW devs don't even bother to put max level elite guards in most of the low level towns anymore like they did at the start of BC and Wrath.

All ZOS needs to do is to not flag npc quest givers for pvp and to provide generous bounties on criminals to give potential bounty hunters enough of an incentive to flag. I don't know how they are going to balance that with bounty setups where player A kills a bunch of npcs so that the bounty on his head is very high then lets his friend Player B to kill him for the bounty loot. Maybe prevent players in the same guild from killing each other for bounties?

AreoHotah

How about making quest npc attack-able but so strong that not even a large pack of players could kill them. Even better make the npc's attack 1 shoot over a player. I would laugh my azz of.

Hilgara

AreoHotah wrote: »

How about making quest npc attack-able but so strong that not even a large pack of players could kill them. Even better make the npc's attack 1 shoot over a player. I would laugh my azz of.

Some NPC's should be protected. If they are attacked guards spawn from portals and kill the attacker. Same mechanic used in EvE online. No matter how powerful the criminal is the policing force is always more powerful and always kills them

DeLindsay

It amazes me how fast Humans jump to conclusions and make wild accusations without even having proper information. There is no way ZoS is going to allow rampant and indiscriminate killing of every NPC in ESO. How can any person that claims to have a brain in their head actually think that's how it's going to be? Also, have any of you that think this way ever played TES games before?

isengrimb16_ESO

Again, if they would come out with more definite details, a lot of this might be quelled.

We already know that bankers, etc, will be unkillable but WILL be reactive. The question as to whether or not we get kicked out of screens if someone attacks the banker is legit; it seems that if a banker does move (at it stands now), the screen _does_ close. There's nothing to stop people from bumping that banker every few seconds (multiple people, or one at a time as a train of bored griefers). While the novelty might wear off after a (long) while, it'll still be a pita to have to re-catch the banker several times during a session, because a group (or just lots of people) happen to want to bug people at the bank. Especially high-levels doing this where there are usually only low-levels. (edit - At least wayshrines will enable people get guildmates' help quicker, assuming they can get any from that source.)

It would also be good to have confirmation on the "you have to be in Sneak to activate Justice Mode" thing, what if you're walking by and get caught in AOE heals or something as a fight starts, etc.

Is it possible to loot barrels by standing normally, while someone else steals by crouching?

Until it died of natural causes, yes, wpvp was an issue and a PITA on PvE servers in WoW - and it still happens from time to time - we just want to make sure the same negative consequences do not show up here, so that no one has to step on anyone's toes.

As it stands now, we just THINK we "know" how it's going to work - in the way each of us HOPES it _will_ work.

C'mon Zeni. Just a few solid facts about details, please. You MUST have the rules in hand already.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

SirJesto wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yeah because the Devs have no idea what has been done in the past by other companies...Right.

The fact the game was overrun by bots for umpteen weeks clearly shows they learned nothing from MMOs that have come before when it came to preventing botting in their game .. botting that continues till this day.

cracker81

Nobody killed Npc when wow had dis honor due to you would lose rep plus pvp points. When blizzard took the system away that is when ppl started doing it. World pvp once in a blue freaking while you had campers and the only reason why was becuz blizzard had you go to a place to que for bg. In doing that ppl were always fighting there. Ppl went back to those area for revenge when they took away the bg instant location. That is how you got gank by high lvls. I was doing quest in cyrodiil pve 1 time out of 12hrs got in one fight. This on high population on all sides.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

wrlifeboil wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Do you play WoW? Hardly anyone kills the npcs in Crossroads or Tarren's Mill anymore even on pvp realms and Southshore doesn't exist anymore as a spot for pvp. The WoW devs don't even bother to put max level elite guards in most of the low level towns anymore like they did at the start of BC and Wrath.

They chose to do that to try to encourage lolworldPVP.

As for your comments about Crossroads, there are still bored 90s who think wiping out the NPCs to prevent Horde lowbies leveling is 'fun'.

WOW proves everyone who has concerns about the depths to which PVPer jerks can sink are right to be very concerned.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

It amazes me how fast Humans jump to conclusions and make wild accusations without even having proper information. There is no way ZoS is going to allow rampant and indiscriminate killing of every NPC in ESO

We know that, they've said that, what they've failed to say is attacking the bank guards won't have a negative effect on players trying to use the bank: ergo it's reasonable speculate it WILL have a negative effect on the bank, ZOS just don't want to admit it yet.

isengrimb16_ESO

cracker81 wrote: »

Nobody killed Npc when wow had dis honor due to you would lose rep plus pvp points. When blizzard took the system away that is when ppl started doing it. World pvp once in a blue freaking while you had campers and the only reason why was becuz blizzard had you go to a place to que for bg. In doing that ppl were always fighting there. Ppl went back to those area for revenge when they took away the bg instant location. That is how you got gank by high lvls. I was doing quest in cyrodiil pve 1 time out of 12hrs got in one fight. This on high population on all sides.

You know, WoW was going to have a harsher justice system than they did - it's still in the original manual. Dunno if the game still comes with it, but I never wiped and redownloaded since I originally installed it in 2009, sooo ... (because I still have a hard time believing I can always get it back for free.)

Anyway, the manual describes it, if you DID wind up with too many Dishonorable Kills (DKs), you would have eventually been barred from entering your own faction's cities (which is why they originally put the neutral Goblin towns in with banks and an expensive AH, I bet).

I wonder why they backed off on THAT?

Now, keep in mind, I play on a PvE server, and PvP happening on PVP servers seems right and normal. The Goldshire I buttoned down was on that PvE server (I don't think I really bothered too many people - I made sure the little duelists saw me coming, and they ran; there were only a few of 'em.) Two allies tried to corpse camp me early in MoP, but I wasn't playing along; I rezed and then suicided off a mountain, and refused to release until they went away.

DKs were taken away because of city raids; accidents or griefers letting off AoEs too close to civilians/merchants (I think guards were immune, you just never got any honour for them) and DK'ing the _entire group_. The removal of DK, yes, seems to have encouraged the Crossroads shut-down (when I first started, it was next to impossible to get things done there most days - again, PvE server.)

The other form of wpvp had to do with, yes, having to go to the instance to get into a bg or dungeon; that problem was removed with queues.

Now that I type it out, it looks like the deliberate griefers were the ones who ruined WoW wpvp for their own selves, especially pulling these things on "normal" servers, rather than keeping it to the PvP servers (where no one would have the right to be butthurt over dead NPCs or not being able to get to the dungeon instance.)

Which is probably why PvP and PvE is best kept as separate as possible.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

Nobody killed Npc when wow had dis honor due to you would lose rep plus pvp points. When blizzard took the system away that is when ppl started doing it. World pvp once in a blue freaking while you had campers and the only reason why was becuz blizzard had you go to a place to que for bg. In doing that ppl were always fighting there. Ppl went back to those area for revenge when they took away the bg instant location. That is how you got gank by high lvls. I was doing quest in cyrodiil pve 1 time out of 12hrs got in one fight. This on high population on all sides.

You know, WoW was going to have a harsher justice system than they did - it's still in the original manual. Dunno if the game still comes with it, but I never wiped and redownloaded since I originally installed it in 2009, sooo ... (because I still have a hard time believing I can always get it back for free.)

Anyway, the manual describes it, if you DID wind up with too many Dishonorable Kills (DKs), you would have eventually been barred from entering your own faction's cities (which is why they originally put the neutral Goblin towns in with banks and an expensive AH, I bet).

I wonder why they backed off on THAT?

The number of PVP jerks that wanted to grief lowbies was huge and Blizzard feared the loss of revenue I expect. They removed DK from the game entirely due to that eventually.

cracker81

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

Nobody killed Npc when wow had dis honor due to you would lose rep plus pvp points. When blizzard took the system away that is when ppl started doing it. World pvp once in a blue freaking while you had campers and the only reason why was becuz blizzard had you go to a place to que for bg. In doing that ppl were always fighting there. Ppl went back to those area for revenge when they took away the bg instant location. That is how you got gank by high lvls. I was doing quest in cyrodiil pve 1 time out of 12hrs got in one fight. This on high population on all sides.

You know, WoW was going to have a harsher justice system than they did - it's still in the original manual. Dunno if the game still comes with it, but I never wiped and redownloaded since I originally installed it in 2009, sooo ... (because I still have a hard time believing I can always get it back for free.)

Anyway, the manual describes it, if you DID wind up with too many Dishonorable Kills (DKs), you would have eventually been barred from entering your own faction's cities (which is why they originally put the neutral Goblin towns in with banks and an expensive AH, I bet).

I wonder why they backed off on THAT?

Now, keep in mind, I play on a PvE server, and PvP happening on PVP servers seems right and normal. The Goldshire I buttoned down was on that PvE server (I don't think I really bothered too many people - I made sure the little duelists saw me coming, and they ran; there were only a few of 'em.) Two allies tried to corpse camp me early in MoP, but I wasn't playing along; I rezed and then suicided off a mountain, and refused to release until they went away.

DKs were taken away because of city raids; accidents or griefers letting off AoEs too close to civilians/merchants (I think guards were immune, you just never got any honour for them) and DK'ing the _entire group_. The removal of DK, yes, seems to have encouraged the Crossroads shut-down (when I first started, it was next to impossible to get things done there most days - again, PvE server.)

The other form of wpvp had to do with, yes, having to go to the instance to get into a bg or dungeon; that problem was removed with queues.

Now that I type it out, it looks like the deliberate griefers were the ones who ruined WoW wpvp for their own selves, especially pulling these things on "normal" servers, rather than keeping it to the PvP servers (where no one would have the right to be butthurt over dead NPCs or not being able to get to the dungeon instance.)

Which is probably why PvP and PvE is best kept as separate as possible.

In pvp server they rarely did that. Why? you would have an army on your back side camping the campers. I think that is why eso is putting it in where other players can hunt you down. I know what your saying about pve servers and I think justice system would not work without pvp. Due ppl will get away with the crime.

cracker81

I did play pve server one time. It pissed me off. You would have ppl place big mounts on things or other faction would kill all quest givers. When an army showed up the players were not flag for pvp. Then they would wait for the army to leave and repeat. Pve to me is far worse than pve, it seemed ppl messed with ppl and nothing happened in return to them. That is why I dislike pve a lot and special ppl doing a Leroy a lot. In a pvp server I had both factions for that reason find said player and camp him. Then explain why after he asked.

Tubben

Audigy wrote: »

Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.

First of all, the 7 million subs lost are not because of PvP.

Second: i wow i could choose to play on an pvp server or to not play on an pvp server.

I dont play PvP, and i dont want to be disturbed by PvP.

There are way more PvE players than PvP players. There is an reason why there are more PvE than PvP Server.

zgrssd

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

You asume they will be attackable in the first place. And that you are somehow smater then a whole bunch of developers who have gaming experience and whose job is preventing that - because only you could come the the conclusion that might be a problem.

While I know I am a bona-fide genius of programming at my best days, it never occured to me I might be that much smarter then my fellow progammers. Much less then a whole bunch of programmers combined that are getting money for thinking about this.
You are propably not even a programmer, so you are only comming over as damn arrogant for thinking you are that much smater or saying "ESO devs are stupid" on my end.

Innocente wrote: »

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

IF it will even be possible to attack questgivers, they will be reproted for greiving. And banned for violation of the TOS wich explicitly mentions grieving.
If they want to be my problem, they will only end up providing me with just causes for getting them thrown out of the game I play.
If and ONLY IF questgivers even are attackable.

isengrimb16_ESO

@cracker81 - you're making my point (except for the mount blockage, that can happen anywhere, and people who are not flagged because it's of course their own faction, safe city can't be attacked any more than an unflagged person can be on a pve server, barring tricking that person into clicking on an enemy (which can't be you, and probably doesn't exist in town unless you're near Gamon or that Stormwind dog.)

It was people pulling PvP tricks on PvE servers that caused the most complaints (nowdays, it's mostly people who should have rolled PvE but "followed their friends" to a PvP server, and don't want to transfer because "friends" are pvp nuts and won't play on a pve server anyway. I can't relate to this nonsense of being that bound by people one probably never even met irl.)

If people who wanted to wPvP would stay on the PvP servers, and keep their PvP there, there wouldn't be so many complaints (discounting the paragraph above, that's just stupid.) They should have simply disabled flagging and PvP outside of the battlegrounds and arenas completely on PvE servers, to encourage PvPers to repopulate all those dead-dead-dead pvp servers Blizz is sitting on - some of them are deader than my own.

As for the mounts, they're too scared to disable them in town/so many feet away from outdoor vendors.

Logan9a

Cogo wrote: »

Wount the "justice" system take care of this?

If it is possible for a group of players to be really mean to other players, plan on them taking the option.

Every time.

cracker81

If you say WoW dropped 7 million subs due to pvp servers your wrong. Pvp became dead most raiding guilds would leave or the ppl that liked messing with players went to pve servers. I was on 10 years pvp server longer than a pve 1 month. I mostly raided and did some pvp. Seemed like pve had a lot of grieving going on. Then RP server seemed like the perverts came out. Ppl only got gank in high lvl area very little grieving.

cracker81

I do believe justice system should take care of those players.