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What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing
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wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
The number of PVP jerks that wanted to grief lowbies was huge and Blizzard feared the loss of revenue I expect. They removed DK from the game entirely due to that eventually.isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »Nobody killed Npc when wow had dis honor due to you would lose rep plus pvp points. When blizzard took the system away that is when ppl started doing it. World pvp once in a blue freaking while you had campers and the only reason why was becuz blizzard had you go to a place to que for bg. In doing that ppl were always fighting there. Ppl went back to those area for revenge when they took away the bg instant location. That is how you got gank by high lvls. I was doing quest in cyrodiil pve 1 time out of 12hrs got in one fight. This on high population on all sides.
You know, WoW was going to have a harsher justice system than they did - it's still in the original manual. Dunno if the game still comes with it, but I never wiped and redownloaded since I originally installed it in 2009, sooo ... (because I still have a hard time believing I can always get it back for free.)
Anyway, the manual describes it, if you DID wind up with too many Dishonorable Kills (DKs), you would have eventually been barred from entering your own faction's cities (which is why they originally put the neutral Goblin towns in with banks and an expensive AH, I bet).
I wonder why they backed off on THAT?
Bloodsail Admiral.0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Akiainavas wrote: »I highly oppose world PvP. How is ZeniMax going to solve this issue ? Are they going to introduce PvP and PvE realms ? If not, as soon as some id... will interrupt my gameplay, quests etc. i will cancel my sub.
Overreaction ? Maybe. But look what happens in WoW for example, good luck even entering a town without being killed over and over again by roof campers.
So will it be like that then ? Shoving PvP up our throats ? I pay for the game and want to enjoy it, not being constantly annoyed that I cannot finish my quests because some bored *** killed the NPCs or being unable to access my bank etc.
Calm down mate.
Like you i also prefer to not PvP while doing my quests ... , if want that i go to cyro.
The devs never said other players would even be able to touch you if you are not part of their cops and robbers mini game.
Just dont enter the mini game, if you dont , then they cant do much to you."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
Innocente✭✭✭✭Zgrssd,
Yes, I am a software engineer. 25 years in the semiconductor test equipment industry. I am named on seven patents for User Interface Design. Have been playing MMOs since 2000. So, yeah, I have seen all this happen before.
The past performance of ESO developers has shown conclusively that they really are way behind the curve in MMO development. ESO would have been a fantastic game if it had been released in 2004, along with WoW. In 2014? Not so much.1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.
Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.
Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.
ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.
Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process
I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.
We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.
I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.
I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.
It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?
Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.
I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.
If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.
In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.
Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.
The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.
The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.
The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?
Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.
To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.
Completely agree Audigy: "The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast."
I said in a post this week we all need to calm our 'mones and wait to see exactly how ZOS implements this and/or tweaks it after implementation
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It will be a 48-hour wonder/novelty if only unimportant irrelevant npcs are attackable. Unless there is some serious loot/coin to be had ;o). Going to be interesting to see how this is done. I would also LOVE to see reputation involved somehow, but doubt it will be. Yes, the player content generated from THAT would be delicious!
I note here that pre-launch in discussing Cyrodil it was mentioned the reason for having PvE quests/goals inside Cyr was a core part of Zeni's interest in creating/motivating PLAYER INTERACTION. That just MAY be at play here as well
(*). Could be quite fun!
Edited by Anastasia on July 22, 2014 2:20PM1 -
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭But what's so important about attacking important NPCs, except for the wanting to attempt to bother others who want to use those NPCs for their regular services? Why CAN'T PvPers be happy with simply attacking NPCs made just for them, in order to trigger the justice system and pvp with player guards?
Why not prefer to go after the "Rude Townie" or the "Aggressive drunk" or the "Rabid Preacher" over some banker?
If PvPers are going to get bored going after specialized (obnoxious-personality) special-to-the-justice-system NPCs because they're "not important" (to the PvE play of others) - then that's just nothing but griefers. They can go bloody cry in Cyrodiil.
Hmm. I remember the Vancouver police thinking IRL that "murder" only applied to "important" people, and let a guy named Willie Pickton do .. things ... for who knows how many years. The victims weren't exactly bankers, so ... they weren't considered "important" enough to investigate.
I would expect Player Guards to react swiftly over an assault on any NPC, no matter how lowly.
Edited by isengrimb16_ESO on July 22, 2014 2:39PM2 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »
I'm not arbitrarily assuming it will last half a second. I'm just assuming it will happen, because when bankers move they close down our banking screen. Case in point the cat banker at Khenarthi's Roost - when he moves the bank window gets shut down. So, this WILL happen.
Which you are assuming based on current configuration. I think we're done here.
So you think the banker who gets attacked and starts fighting or sees a nearby NPC get beaten and stops to cower and call for guards will let you continue banking. At least my assumption is based on reality as it stands, whereas what you are assuming is just wishful thinking, or thread diversion.
No, they are going to have to make him entirely non-reactive and untargetable.
And they will have to do this with ALL useful NPCs, all bankers, all shop NPCs, and all quest NPCs.
Sorta like they HAD TO keep grouping-encouraged mob difficulty in Vet+ content because they publicized that in pre-launch interviews, on fansites and online media - amirite???? Thats what I signed up for, wanted and enjoyed, but for whatever reasons ZOS NERFED that.
So just stop, and wait and see.
We are discussing pro's/con's and some are adding insightful suggestions related to the exciting topic of the Justice System.
DEMANDING or COMMANDING Zeni about their business again is...redonkulous.
Edited by Anastasia on July 22, 2014 2:43PM1 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭posts assuming they know everything like this are so annoying. The glimpse we got to see was pre alpha at best we know literally *** all about how this is going to work.4 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?Edited by OrangeTheCat on July 22, 2014 3:01PM7 -
rotiferuk✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?
According to Zenimax players want a Justice System...........apparently. Or, it could be a way to introduce world PvP by stealth. Either way, I can see it all ending in tears.EU Server.8 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?
Haven't you played the Elder Scrolls games before? This is probably a lead in to the Dark Brotherhood.
Plus ZOS would be negligent if they didn't include some cool title and achievement.3 -
cracker81✭✭✭If you are a person that is scared of world pvp, then don't grief or hit an Npc or steal. You will have nothing to fear but if you do make the choice make sure your ready. I am sure ppl waiting in line to put a mace to face.5 -
rotiferuk✭✭✭If you are a person that is scared of world pvp, then don't grief or hit an Npc or steal. You will have nothing to fear but if you do make the choice make sure your ready. I am sure ppl waiting in line to put a mace to face.
Charming
Edited by rotiferuk on July 22, 2014 3:29PMEU Server.4 -
Delith✭✭✭✭Ultima Online did this 17 years ago, and it was fine.
If we haven't developed game mechanics on par with something that was done almost two decades ago, we have a big problem.
Everything will be fine.2 -
Innocente✭✭✭✭The point of the original post is not to claim what the feature WILL be, but to warn against what the feature COULD be without very careful development.
If we all wait until the feature is released to speak out, it will be far to late. You all KNOW how long it takes ZOS to make significant changes to any currently implemented system.
Better to speak out now about the dangers and pitfalls than to remain silent and see the game placed in even further jeopardy.
I would also like to point out that the vast majority of 'normal' players are actually not group orientated and are playing ESO as a single player game. These folks will have no chance against even a small team of dedicated PvP griefers. It is not going to be very much fun for them to see virtually entire towns wiped out, except for whatever 'invulnerable' NPCs ZOS has enabled.
The 'Guards' and 'Infamy' systems never worked in WoW, and are not working in EVE. Why should they be expected to work here?7 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think the biggest benefit of posting concerns before a system is even fully revealed or implemented
is that when the system is implemented and works fine
I can pat myself on the back and pretend my input is what ensured its proper functioning
and that the company surely didn't address such issues on their own
and would not have even thought to, if not for my great advice."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
3 -
Delith✭✭✭✭The point of the original post is not to claim what the feature WILL be, but to warn against what the feature COULD be without very careful development.
If we all wait until the feature is released to speak out, it will be far to late. You all KNOW how long it takes ZOS to make significant changes to any currently implemented system.
Better to speak out now about the dangers and pitfalls than to remain silent and see the game placed in even further jeopardy.
I would also like to point out that the vast majority of 'normal' players are actually not group orientated and are playing ESO as a single player game. These folks will have no chance against even a small team of dedicated PvP griefers. It is not going to be very much fun for them to see virtually entire towns wiped out, except for whatever 'invulnerable' NPCs ZOS has enabled.
The 'Guards' and 'Infamy' systems never worked in WoW, and are not working in EVE. Why should they be expected to work here?
I guess you can just go play one of the other myriad games that caters to people who are risk averse and just want a mind numbing faceroll through pointless content, and let the Elder Scrolls players have their game. Almost every single MMO on the market today is designed for players like you. Choose one, and enjoy.
And "not working in EVE"? LOL. Okay.Edited by Delith on July 22, 2014 3:50PM1 -
cracker81✭✭✭Because you forget other pvper will be killing the griefer. I know I will be one hunting down these nameless ppl.Edited by cracker81 on July 22, 2014 3:51PM6
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Delith✭✭✭✭I wish all the luck in the world to you Defenders of the Weak. You will need it.
Don't need luck when you've got a sword.
And as a concerned citizen yourself, you don't need it either. We'll be there, looking out for you.
For every murderer in this game, there will be five people just like you. All you have to do is stand up to them.Edited by Delith on July 22, 2014 3:59PM3 -
Innocente✭✭✭✭*Laughs* Some of you folks really have no clue at all.
I speak to you from experience playing through these sorts of designs.
What you THINK you will be able to do and what you WILL be able to do are night and day apart.4 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You have obviously never actually played Eve then because your comment is absolutely false. Concord, aka the 'Guards' insta kill you. There is nothing you can do to escape Concord, you get insta-locked, perma jammed/webbed and popped in ANY size ship no matter how good the tank is. If you have played eve and are referring to Faction Police, that's a totally different concept and not remotely on topic here.The 'Guards' and 'Infamy' systems never worked in WoW, and are not working in EVE. Why should they be expected to work here?
Simply put, the Justice system WILL WORK regardless of how many (insert colorful adjective here) say otherwise. The ONLY addition ZoS is making to it that differs from TES games is other players being able to kill a player that has reached a certain bounty level. In TES games you can't kill important NPC's, only the "croud" or background NPC's that make the game seem alive.
You will still be able to loot anything and everything, but you will have to make sure you have a solid --o-- while Crouching before doing so. You will still be able to play the game just as you do now if you choose NOT to participate, other players will not effect your game whatsoever.Edited by DeLindsay on July 22, 2014 4:11PM2 -
Delith✭✭✭✭*Laughs* Some of you folks really have no clue at all.
I speak to you from experience playing through these sorts of designs.
What you THINK you will be able to do and what you WILL be able to do are night and day apart.
I've been playing online games since Ultima Online.
I know exactly what will happen.
I cannot wait.0 -
Innocente✭✭✭✭I have indeed played EVE.
I am afraid you have not kept up with current events though.
I recommend you research a bit into what is going on at Jita as it relates to the suicide squads, Concord, newb extortion, and all the other fun stuff going on now.2 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭
You read my mind .. I'm excited about the justice system and I think it is a part of the game that can grow over time into something amazingjamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »The Justice system will be awesome.
Seriously folks, at least wait until there is more information than a quick pre-alpha vid at a convention, likely several months to release, before going off the rails with what could happen.
Additionally when it does go to the PTS, get your a** in there and exploit the hell out of it, make sure all the bases are covered when the time comes.
! But I don't want to go into a town where mass mayhem is occurring and blood is flowing in the streets ( ooooH I hope there is some blood !! gory... but whatever ) So I completely agree about anyone with concerns signing up for PTS and just being their concerns by continuously attacking the bankers, quest givers, merchants and well everyone in town ! By exploiting the hell out of it will give everyone a clear picture as to how to and not to implement it in game. Which is a win win ! Edited by Sighlynce on July 22, 2014 4:55PM"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax1 -
Absynthe✭✭I'm looking forward to the justice system, especially in regards to the Thieves guild, Assassins type guild(s), and vampires/werewolves. Leonine Tigeress1 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Seriously? That's been going on in Jita since always. The very fact that CCP allows all forms of deviousness is what makes Eve great. I know quite well of the Dessy and BC gank squads, that they lowered the spawn timer of Concord to as much as 29.5 sec (0.5 sec), Burn Jitas ala the scourge that is the Goonies, etc. NONE of that has any correlation to ESO's Justice system.I have indeed played EVE.
I am afraid you have not kept up with current events though.
I recommend you research a bit into what is going on at Jita as it relates to the suicide squads, Concord, newb extortion, and all the other fun stuff going on now.Edited by DeLindsay on July 22, 2014 7:09PM1 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭daniangiub17_ESO wrote: »So... I suppose that for PTS to really work for the Justice System update, we'll have to encourage the majority of the sociopathic/psychopathic population to test the game.
Sounds good, should we start spreading lies like "there will be killable elven children on PTS" to attract them?
Thats a good start just remember to sprinkle in plenty of chickens and other small animals ..![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax0 -
Sighlynce✭✭✭AlexDougherty wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »AlexDougherty wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »The mistake wow made was allowing quest NPCs and vendor NPCs to be killed. Naturally this was a big problem when lowbies had no vendors or NPCs to turn in quests.
There are countless NPCs in ESO that are there for fluff. All they have to do is make sure that relevant NPCs are unkillable.
Bards, for example, I would be a lot happier if I could kill Bards, I don't want to kill any other NPCs, just the Bards.
I really avoid fighting other players when possible , but you , you i will kill :P.
Just so long as I get to shut the bard up first,
lol ! and the punishment, if caught , for killing our artsy town folk .... 2hrs of game time in the stocks, surrounded by bards singing tales of there lost heroes !!
Yeah, justice served !! By the way, I will be there playing the lute !!! "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax1 -
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Aha! Yet another "Obnoxious NPC" - "The Bard who Only Knows One Song and Mangles It in Every Place You Go".
Much more satisfying than bugging bankers.
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