What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

Skillgannon

And what when ZoS scales u as a player down in a lower lvl area like in GW2?
So that when u enter a low lvl area as VR12 u get scaled to one lvl above the area lvl?

Could be very interesting :-)

Animus0724

So it begins...

ShiftControl

to become a criminal in ESO its all about incentives can I make moar gold going to be moar fun making more gold?
Also why would I become a guard?
If I chase down a criminal and I only get paid a few hundred gold forget it It will be a long chase its a hug he map If I get paid a 10k it might be worth the time spent.
Imo all Npcs should be killable, except bankers that would create a chaos,
Quest givers etc should be killable but gotto make sure to implement a rapid re spawn timer on all those named NPCs.
They should place more guards in the Cities. Once you have a bounty on you, guards will auto attack you (I think) so you won't be able to continuously wipe npcs anyway.
Lots of ppl wanted to slow down lvling in ESO now they will get it.
Infect already slow, so I stopped lvl my alts, forget it, those crying babies ruined my most grinding spots ZoS was listing to them thx.
So because we want slow lvling experience :
We should be able to kill guest givers as well, so we can slow down the lvling even more. Reading forums thats what most ppl want anyway slow lvling make sure you do all your quests.
They crying about it since game started

RoseVex

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

demonlkojipub19_ESO

RoseVex wrote: »

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

How would infamy logically have an effect on being able to change equipment? and why did that come before players in your alliance being able to kill you...

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

RoseVex wrote: »

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

How would infamy logically have an effect on being able to change equipment? and why did that come before players in your alliance being able to kill you...

yea that's more than a little nonsensical. Sounds like they had a feature, which they then added an actual punishment for. If you are going to actually punish players for something in a way that isn't fun, don't make the thing you are punishing them for possible.

I get that the carebears hate anything that could possibly lead to pvp, even if they are completely uninvolved, but you are sharing the game with other people. Part of that is compromise. Your quest and vital NPCs are not killable, and we get opt in world pvp. It's perfect. Stop complaining.

With regards to being able to attack essential NPCs, I would need to see it in implementation. I await the chance to fiddle around with this on the PTS server.

SG_Celerrimus

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Any idea when this might be up on the PTS for us to test?

moxiesauce

They just need to make important NPC's phased, so people have the choice to kill anything and it doesn't effect the carebears.

Hamfast

In another thread someone mentioned Eve Online as an example because they have low security space where there is full PvP and high Security space where Concord shows up and blasts the offending ships... I would also point out that concord normally arrived late (your ship was already gone)... But when Concord arrived, they came with an overwhelming force that you really could not fight for long (sort of like swimming with Slaughterfish)... they also hung around for a while before despawning.

This idea could also be applied to the towns, Guards spawn after the first attack, the number of guards increases until the attacker is dead, leaves town, or pays the fine... the difference with the NPCs is how fast the guards show up and their numbers escalate... An NPC with no function beyond atmosphere means you have a few seconds to get away after the initial attack, from the video they die quick enough... When an NPC with a function is attacked, the guards show up a lot faster and in greater numbers, after the miscreant is dead, they hang around a while... discouraging attacks for a few minutes by reacting quickly and fatally if anyone chooses to attack the NPC again or anyone else for that matter.

Also, Reputations should matter, each attack and/or punishment in a town should change the character's reputation, the worst your reputation, the more your name and description is widely known, the better you are known, the less welcome you are in all towns in a zone... you can still use the crafting stations in the wild, you can still interact with the traveling merchants, but you are no longer welcome in towns... the guards follow you, the merchants and bankers will no longer deal with you... and, if you are infamous enough, the guards attack you on sight (by the way, this is also a function from Eve Online, check out their reputation system)

There would need to be a way to raise ones reputation, but it should not be easy or fast.

Azzuria

Ok, it's been confirmed... important NPCs cannot be killed.

A preemptive strike against the lowest of the lowbrow griefers. Let them attack willy-nilly ( and Fire at Wil because I actively despise Wesley Crusher )... we 'carebears' will be there to utterly destroy them in the name of justice!!

Audigy

indytims_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This does help allay a lot of fears, and I thank you.

PVP belongs in Cyrodil. That being said, adding it to the rest of the world in a limited fashion isn't a terrible idea *as long as* it doesn't interfere with those who have ZERO interest in PVP.

This is -not- a "PVP" game. This game was never designed with "open world" PVP in mind. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that allowing PVP, or PVPers to grief/harass PVErs by messing with quest NPCs, vendors, bankers, would be a *terrible* idea. Hopefully that 'current plan' REMAINS the 'plan' until implementation.

To those who are moaning about not being able to 'kill everything' - too bad. Go play Skyrim, or any other of the series where you can't screw with other people's games. Seriously. Your argument is lame and completely without merit. WHY would you *want* to screw the game up for other players who have no interest in playing "your way"? I have no desire to screw the game up for -you-, why would you want to do it in return? What sort of kick do you get out of the idea?

I frankly don't care about the 'justice system'. I don't care if players are allowed to kill off useless NPCs. That won't interfere with anyone else's game.

First of all, I am not sure why you must throw all those insults towards pvp players, this is a game with many different groups of players and they all have a right to play this game.

Now to what you said in detail.

PVP belongs in Cyrodil.

Says who? Do you realize that there was PVP in MMOs before Blizzard came around and put it into separated zones? The devs clearly said that they want to have pvp everywhere, that's why the justice system will come.

Didn't you see how positive Paul was at Quakecon? Such a proud presentation and now the forum has once again killed his great idea of a wonderful addition to the game.

This is -not- a "PVP" game. This game was never designed with "open world" PVP in mind. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that allowing PVP, or PVPers to grief/harass PVErs by messing with quest NPCs, vendors, bankers, would be a *terrible* idea. Hopefully that 'current plan' REMAINS the 'plan' until implementation.

If this is not a PVP game, which btw. is a really silly definition for an MMO as they always have PVE and PVP parts, then why do we have a whole pvp system with rankings and stuff?

Why can we even attack other players, if after your definition MMOs don't have pvp?

You talk about griefing and harassing, but what did you just do with your post? Hostility in every sentence, yet you complain that other players might kill a quest NPC once in a while ... double standards huh?

To those who are moaning about not being able to 'kill everything' - too bad. Go play Skyrim, or any other of the series where you can't screw with other people's games. Seriously. Your argument is lame and completely without merit. WHY would you *want* to screw the game up for other players who have no interest in playing "your way"? I have no desire to screw the game up for -you-, why would you want to do it in return? What sort of kick do you get out of the idea?

Why should someone actually go play a single player game? Is it because you don't like MMO parts in the ES universe?
Don't you think that this is a bit rude? Why should you decide what someone has to play? People picked ESO for a reason and one of the main reasons was PVP.

MMOs have pvp and pve, they do have world pvp, they do have gankers, just like they have traders. To disable such an important part of an already pvp driven game is not advised.

Nobody screws up "YOUR" game, you try to make the game to fit your liking nothing else. This is an MMO, so it should at least have the basics from that genre, don't you think?

You also assume that people kill an NPC because they know that you sit in your chair and will rage because of this. This however is a pretty silly argument, fact is nobody cares about you raging in your chair

People kill an NPC because its their role in the game, because its what they find fun and because they can actually alter the world. Not everything someone does or did was done because of you and their "yes I killed his NPC and now he is crying and I feel super good because of it" attitude.

I frankly don't care about the 'justice system'. I don't care if players are allowed to kill off useless NPCs. That won't interfere with anyone else's game.

You don't care about it and because of this it must be ruined for those who do? This is a very rude attitude and I hope you know that. What would you say if people come to this forum and demand that raids don't drop loot anymore, that quests are removed because its after their opinion "nothing they care about"?

If you don't care about something, then how about you just do exactly this? Why does a system need to be altered to your liking, if you wont even use it?


Too many people in MMOs try to take away content and features from others, just because they don't like them. I can only hope that ZO will not ruin the justice system because of this, its what so many people want and already now its on jeopardy which is really sad.

Audigy

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.

If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.

In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.

Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.

The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.


The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.

The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?

Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.

To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.

The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.

I don't think so to be honest and even if so, what about the time after you have the perks, why continue with being a criminal?

Does anyone still hunt vampires after he is done with the fighters guild?

We will see how it turns out, but I see some serious issues in regards of the incentive to become a criminal. You also need to consider that you can steal your way up or trade like it happens with vampires already.

I am pretty sure that nobody ever has to attack an NPC and could still max out the skill lines.

Good questions maybe ZoS will think of more reasons to maintain a criminal lifestyle. Dailies could be one, go kill this guy or steal this artifact. here's 600g for your efforts, also a token, when you get enough you can buy a piece of nightengale armor.

I think they said in the presentation, that there wont be any rewards for stealing or killing.

If there would lets say "NPC x has 1000 gold, grab it" then this would probably not go through. Too many PVE players would demand that this isn't right, that they should not be forced to pvp...

We saw this with the dye system already, many complains that a few colors were bound on pvp achievements. I wonder what they would do if killing NPCs would actually reward loot that matters

Needles to say I wouldn't mind serious loot on those NPCs or quests - but with our community I am afraid it would be nerfed into Oblivion and every incentive to be destroyed.

Time will tell I guess, but a good remark from you!

Spottswoode

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

Easily fixed by overpowered guards and instant aggro by all faction guards. You can quite easily make it a real pain in the rear to even get to the bank and frequent use NPC's. Not to mention the line of players like me who would be eager to gank people who gank important npc's. (Joining the guards will be one of the first things I do. I'll even go so far as to make a guard guild for these type of purposes.)

I think the lot of you are over reacting. This problem has been around and addressed since Ultima Online and it isn't like there has been zero adequate measures to confront it.

babylon

Spottswoode wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

Easily fixed by overpowered guards

No this isn't "easily fixed" because the moment any nearby NPC or the banker gets attacked everyone will get booted out of the banking screen, because the banker will move and start cowering/calling for help.

Having "overpowered guards" is not going to stop the banker kicking people because he's a reactive NPC and any movement from him will kick everyone from their banking session soon as there's any combat in the area.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.

If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.

In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.

Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.

The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.


The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.

The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?

Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.

To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.

The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.

I don't think so to be honest and even if so, what about the time after you have the perks, why continue with being a criminal?

Does anyone still hunt vampires after he is done with the fighters guild?

We will see how it turns out, but I see some serious issues in regards of the incentive to become a criminal. You also need to consider that you can steal your way up or trade like it happens with vampires already.

I am pretty sure that nobody ever has to attack an NPC and could still max out the skill lines.

Good questions maybe ZoS will think of more reasons to maintain a criminal lifestyle. Dailies could be one, go kill this guy or steal this artifact. here's 600g for your efforts, also a token, when you get enough you can buy a piece of nightengale armor.

I think they said in the presentation, that there wont be any rewards for stealing or killing.

If there would lets say "NPC x has 1000 gold, grab it" then this would probably not go through. Too many PVE players would demand that this isn't right, that they should not be forced to pvp...

We saw this with the dye system already, many complains that a few colors were bound on pvp achievements. I wonder what they would do if killing NPCs would actually reward loot that matters

Needles to say I wouldn't mind serious loot on those NPCs or quests - but with our community I am afraid it would be nerfed into Oblivion and every incentive to be destroyed.

Time will tell I guess, but a good remark from you!

Stealing would be pointless if you don't rake in some cash. They mentioned something about items you steal having some measure of value. I don't know how they are going to handle it though.

The post before this you made was very well said, btw. I agree 100%. There's always players that want the game to only cater to them. An mmo is a shared game, it should be fun for as many people as possible.

I am stoked about the Justice system personally.

moxiesauce

Audigy wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Denaia wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.

If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.

In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.

Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.

The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.


The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.

The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?

Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.

To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.

The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.

I don't think so to be honest and even if so, what about the time after you have the perks, why continue with being a criminal?

Does anyone still hunt vampires after he is done with the fighters guild?

We will see how it turns out, but I see some serious issues in regards of the incentive to become a criminal. You also need to consider that you can steal your way up or trade like it happens with vampires already.

I am pretty sure that nobody ever has to attack an NPC and could still max out the skill lines.

Good questions maybe ZoS will think of more reasons to maintain a criminal lifestyle. Dailies could be one, go kill this guy or steal this artifact. here's 600g for your efforts, also a token, when you get enough you can buy a piece of nightengale armor.

I think they said in the presentation, that there wont be any rewards for stealing or killing.

If there would lets say "NPC x has 1000 gold, grab it" then this would probably not go through. Too many PVE players would demand that this isn't right, that they should not be forced to pvp...

We saw this with the dye system already, many complains that a few colors were bound on pvp achievements. I wonder what they would do if killing NPCs would actually reward loot that matters

Needles to say I wouldn't mind serious loot on those NPCs or quests - but with our community I am afraid it would be nerfed into Oblivion and every incentive to be destroyed.

Time will tell I guess, but a good remark from you!

I guess it's possible they would give no incentive because it might "force" to PvP. Which obviously is silly, The same thing would come of IC if that was the case. Many people already say that IC is going to be a great PvE experience as well as a PvP one with great rewards. It's hard to believe they wouldn't do the same with the justice system. Just makes so sense to put so much time and effort into a system that does nothing but sink gold into the server.

*My best guess is the only way to level TG and DBH tree's is from quests and committing the crimes on your own.* Based on fighters/mage guild tree's the new guilds will have some impressive skills that people are going to want. It even has the potential to serve as distraction based content after tree level cap, the same could be done with mages/fighters.

The_Sadist

As stated, important NPCs will be protected and hopefully, by extension, cannot be attacked at all (the whole bank issue).

The system could work if done correctly, make certain NPCs fight back, make NPCs drop items of value and make the bounty system something akin to getting half of the total bounty (if not all of it). That being said I can see this being abused. Half a friend get a crazy amount of bounty, kill him, get bounty and repeat. What are the negatives about being a criminal? If you die from a guard or whatever is your bounty removed or do you have it until you can pay it off? The system is still very ambiguous, so who knows.

Like I mentioned before, I do hope they change provisioning.. Given 50% of the required materials you would have to steal in order to progress. Perhaps more nodes (berries, wheat etc) and animals dropping meats could be a solution, but we'll see.

My one issue is accidentally casting a spell or swinging your weapon, killing an extremely weak NPC and having to pay a fine.. But I suppose the obvious answer is take caution in towns.

Nestor

Not sure if I am liking this being able to kill NPCs*. When it is in a SPG, it's OK, I chose to keep my towns populated. I see no reason to kill those who would otherwise help me, or at least not hinder me. But, the enjoyment I get from being in town will quickly dissipate if I am surrounded by players killing off NPCs left and right. Even if they respawn.

I go to town to trade and rest and people watch, not to be in the middle of a slaughter. That is what dungeons are for. It's not like this game is vacant of things to dull your sword on, heck, you can do so from just the other side of the city walls in most cases.



*Of course none of this applies to those two who are always arguing in Elden Root about a Daedric Prince and butterflies, I will probably kill them myself at some point.

moxiesauce

babylon wrote: »

Spottswoode wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

Easily fixed by overpowered guards

No this isn't "easily fixed" because the moment any nearby NPC or the banker gets attacked everyone will get booted out of the banking screen, because the banker will move and start cowering/calling for help.

Having "overpowered guards" is not going to stop the banker kicking people because he's a reactive NPC and any movement from him will kick everyone from their banking session soon as there's any combat in the area.

making it so you can always talk to the banker and never get kicked no matter what the bank is doing would be an easy fix. Break immersion a bit, but it's clearly what people want.

Troponin

I thought it was cool that WoW NPCs could be killed, but that certain ones were so insanely hard to kill, most people jsut didn't mess with them. At one time, the griffin masters were NPCs you didn't mess with. They would call down an entire army of griffins and destroy whoever it was that attacked them. What happened later was, players were able to level up to level 80+, but they kept the griffin masters down to level 65 and the players got so geared they could finally kill them. They just neglected to scale them and it caused a TON Of problems.

That's all I ask, is that the NPCs are scaled properly based on importance, and that any that have a large impact on play, are made in to raid bosses or something equivalent so people will think twice about attacking them.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

The only 2 things I am concerned about are,

1. Accidentally attacking npcs, there are vendors than wander the roads and It could be very easy to attack them if a mob strays to close, I think it is an easy fix if they simply put in a toggle in settings to make it so you can never accidentally attack npcs. But it is a concern.

2. The 'player as guards' system. It was mentioned in preview that the plan is for players to be able to PvP players that haven't paid their fines and escaped the guards. I like the idea, especially if players could get like 10% of the unpaid fine as a bounty or something. But, there a whole host of technical problems to this.

The players with fines have to be able to defend themselves or there would be little incentive to actually be a criminal, so they will need to be able to trigger combat or damage other players while having unpaid fines. If criminals can simply turn on pvp by getting a bounty, then they could kill an npc, escape from guards, and then get open world pvp against unwilling players.

Or if it requires that a player actively attack you while you have a fine, criminals could run up to players fighting mobs with AoE and suck them into PvP combat by getting hit.

Stealth from enemy players is important in PvP, so you'll probably need to change the stealth mechanics so criminals can run from Player-guards. Which could cause problems with stealth in Cyrodill.

How will you be able to identify criminals? there are no nameplates but it would theoretically be necessary to be able to identify players with unpaid fines, without breaking immersion.

The player-guard mechanics seem to be the most difficult aspect for the Justice System, I've listed just some of the possible issues. I look forward to the justice system and think it can be great, but ZOS has their work cut out for them.

babylon

moxiesauce wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Spottswoode wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

Easily fixed by overpowered guards

No this isn't "easily fixed" because the moment any nearby NPC or the banker gets attacked everyone will get booted out of the banking screen, because the banker will move and start cowering/calling for help.

Having "overpowered guards" is not going to stop the banker kicking people because he's a reactive NPC and any movement from him will kick everyone from their banking session soon as there's any combat in the area.

making it so you can always talk to the banker and never get kicked no matter what the bank is doing would be an easy fix. Break immersion a bit, but it's clearly what people want.

An easier fix would be to make it so bankers and other essential NPCs (stablehands/any shop NPC, all quest NPCs) are just not reactive at all.

Practicality > immersion for griefers.

moxiesauce

They should make an option to not being allowed to sheath your weapon in towns, would help a ton with accidental attacking. maybe even get it a hot key to turn off and on.

babylon

moxiesauce wrote: »

They should make an option to not being allowed to sheath your weapon in towns, would help a ton with accidental attacking. maybe even get it a hot key to turn off and on.

You can't attack unless you're stealthed.

moxiesauce

babylon wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

They should make an option to not being allowed to sheath your weapon in towns, would help a ton with accidental attacking. maybe even get it a hot key to turn off and on.

You can't attack unless you're stealthed.

oh only stealth that's news to me, TY.

babylon

moxiesauce wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

They should make an option to not being allowed to sheath your weapon in towns, would help a ton with accidental attacking. maybe even get it a hot key to turn off and on.

You can't attack unless you're stealthed.

yea precaution if people have their wep out in town. Some abilities from other players can even sheath your weapon. you mess up and hit 1-5 R or your mouse and attack something you could be hit with a bounty. lemme guess another stupid idea?

Again, you have to be stealthed.

One idea is to have a toggle for people in options so even if stealthed they can't be entered into the open world pvp of the justice system.

moxiesauce

babylon wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

They should make an option to not being allowed to sheath your weapon in towns, would help a ton with accidental attacking. maybe even get it a hot key to turn off and on.

You can't attack unless you're stealthed.

yea precaution if people have their wep out in town. Some abilities from other players can even sheath your weapon. you mess up and hit 1-5 R or your mouse and attack something you could be hit with a bounty. lemme guess another stupid idea?

Again, you have to be stealthed.

One idea is to have a toggle for people in options so even if stealthed they can't be entered into the open world pvp of the justice system.

yea stealth works, I read it first as sheathed lol, my bad

Spottswoode

babylon wrote: »

No this isn't "easily fixed" because the moment any nearby NPC or the banker gets attacked everyone will get booted out of the banking screen, because the banker will move and start cowering/calling for help.

Having "overpowered guards" is not going to stop the banker kicking people because he's a reactive NPC and any movement from him will kick everyone from their banking session soon as there's any combat in the area.

Which you are arbitrarily assuming will last longer than half a second or that it will even happen in the first place. It is also possible to have an NPC that does not have the combat script or that the script does not need to interefere with the NPC's function. (The bank NPC could also, you know, kill the attacker. That could always happen too.) Most of the Bank NPC's are in enclosed areas, which would likely have a great deal of guards added. In most cases, the Banker may not even need to move to have the offending player killed.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

How will you be able to identify criminals? there are no nameplates but it would theoretically be necessary to be able to identify players with unpaid fines, without breaking immersion.
.

They would be highlighted as aggroed and with a symbol over their head. Not to mention, all of us guards would probably just use a criminal panel addon anyway.

Aren_Liore

Didn't Paul say that the player with a large bounty will keep that bounty through death? I think his exact words was "Until they pay the bounty" which means that VR 12 that is causing trouble in Daven's Watch will still have that bounty when he goes to Craglorn, unless he decides to spend tons of gold to clear his name. I know this doesn't help the bank/quest givers, but then again I think ZOS will eventually make them unable to be targeted. It does help prevent people without tons of gold from attacking NPCs in the first place.

It will be a difficult task for ZOS to balance this new system, but I do feel like they will do it well in the end. They don't need to discourage killing NPCs too much, but they don't need to let griefers go about trolling new players either.

babylon

Spottswoode wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

No this isn't "easily fixed" because the moment any nearby NPC or the banker gets attacked everyone will get booted out of the banking screen, because the banker will move and start cowering/calling for help.

Having "overpowered guards" is not going to stop the banker kicking people because he's a reactive NPC and any movement from him will kick everyone from their banking session soon as there's any combat in the area.

Which you are arbitrarily assuming will last longer than half a second or that it will even happen in the first place.

I'm not arbitrarily assuming it will last half a second. I'm just assuming it will happen, because when bankers move they close down our banking screen. Case in point the cat banker at Khenarthi's Roost - when he moves the bank window gets shut down. So, this WILL happen.

Nobody wants to be kicked from a banking session at all, for any length of time.

People might be searching guild shops, or stacking guild banks using a stacking addon which might even bug out and lose your stack if it gets interrupted.