What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

isengrimb16_ESO

Spottswoode wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?

Because Maiq needs to learn to stop lying. Permanently. (If I can catch him.)

Seriously, crime has been a core part of TES games for forever. And most people like a little insanity in their games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-E1lXgE_TM

Random moments where the world goes bonkers are some of my fondest memories in TES. Playing it with other people can make it even more fun.

Evergnar wrote: »

I miss those gruff voices of TES past. When half of Tamriel hated your guts.

Rehabilitation was definitely NOT the model the Tamriel justice system used.

TES games from Morrowind on had /changeownership, to allow you to take things without actually stealing them.

Hopefully, there will be a trigger - like Sneak - to toggle whether we want to take or steal.

And hopefully the PvP kids won't be able to constantly bump bankers and merchants and quest givers just to be annoying, like they apparently love to be (can't be happy killing special NPCs, no that'd be SO BORING, waaah).

Hopefully, no one who doesn't want to get mixed up in, will never be forced to be by pvp.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Samadhi

Tannakaobi wrote: »

...
But it tells you something about some PVE players. Happy to grief in this way, but to scared to PVP.
I would suggest it's these players that ruin thing for both PVP and PVE players. I've always thought so, but PVE players are so ready to blame the PVP players.

Of course it is these people.
Legitimate PvPers are interested in a challenge, not in griefing players.
It's not that PvPers seek out ways to grief PvErs. It's that griefers use PvP mechanics against players that they know take incredible offense to it.

I've played other games with open-world PvP
They also had exp loss on death from mobs
Do you think griefers went around PKing people? Of course not, they lead mob-trains to people so they would die and lose exp.

Tannakaobi

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Aren't you the guy who thinks it'd be oh so BORING if you can't kill bankers, merchants, and other NPCs that PVErs need to use? Oh, that's not griefing

Er... No, you must have me mistaken with someone else. My own opinions are very different. I would not like to see that at all. Personally I think everyone should be able to play the way they choose to do so, Without interruptions like dead bankers. ESO is a very different game to WoW.

Because of people like you, they NEVER should have opened the Pandora's box of a justice system, and just kept PvP in its own proper playpen, Cyrodiil. Oh, but that's too boring, because you can't bother the PvErs with your NPC-killing and AOE-flagging.

Again, your confusing me with someone else. There is nothing boring about Cyrodiil for me. I have no wish to do anything with PVE players that don't wish to be involved in PVP.

I'll be thinking like you, on the PTS, so that you CANNOT bring this garbage to Live, and there'll be NO WAY you can suck PvErs into your sick little CoD army-boy world. If I want to PvP, I'd rather play a board game or join the damn army (at least I'm not one who wants to see soldiers arrested for doing their jobs.)

Whatever makes you happy!

Annoying PvP should NEVER have happened on PVE realms - the PvPers had their own playgrounds in PvP realms, but THEY ALL INFEST PVE SERVERS NOW.

Never been on a PVE realm if the choice for a PVP one is available in my life, but whatever.

Haewk

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Again, your confusing me with someone else. There is nothing boring about Cyrodiil for me. I have no wish to do anything with PVE players that don't wish to be involved in PVP.

So why do you want to kill NPCs in PvE zones?

Lets face it, killing NPCs = PvE. So if you want open world PvP why not just have a flag people can turn on? Why even bring NPCs into it? Give the PvPers what they apparently want without affecting PvE at all.

Logan9a

Delith wrote: »

Ultima Online did this 17 years ago, and it was fine.

If we haven't developed game mechanics on par with something that was done almost two decades ago, we have a big problem.

Everything will be fine.

Gosh. My memories of UO are a bit different.

They had so much grief that if the players could have molested your corpse, they would have joyfully done that.

Part of the reason for the success of Everquest was the large numbers of players fleeing the UO gank fest.

Also, for those saying "Oh, the justice system will take care of everything" I think I'd need a lot more actual information to be convinced of that...

MercyKilling

Samadhi wrote: »

Do you think griefers went around PKing people? Of course not, they lead mob-trains to people so they would die and lose exp.

And that isn't griefing and just as bad as PK griefing?

I think it's safe to say that if a mechanic CAN be abused...there is a portion of the player base of ANY game that WILL abuse it.

What Zenimax needs to do is remove all the parts that are capable of being used to grief other players. Simple in theory, not sure if simple in practice.

Tannakaobi

Haewk wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Again, your confusing me with someone else. There is nothing boring about Cyrodiil for me. I have no wish to do anything with PVE players that don't wish to be involved in PVP.

So why do you want to kill NPCs in PvE zones?

Er... because it's an Elder Scrolls game.

I honestly think people are looking at it in the wrong way.
You won't be able to kill bankers, quest givers, venders.. Killing people will result in heavy costs in gold. There will be little griefing because of this.

Also other PVP players such as myself won't allow it. You think I would hesitate putting down a player who is doing this? (if it's even possible) It's a free grief free kill. There are many players that will think that way.

Edit: And I have no wish to murder innocent NPC's, I will play the Thieves Guild quest and the Dark brotherhood if I can. That's it.

isengrimb16_ESO

Sorry if I confused one for the other - but there HAS to be SAFEGUARDS to keep griefers from sucking passers-by into their PvP.

Yes, WoW should have made TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RULESETS for Pve and PvP servers; they didn't go far enough with separating the two. They also really need to introduce two versions of spells - one for PvE that can be left mostly alone, and one for PvP that can be messed with in the interests of "PvP Balance"; that way, PvErs don't get hosed by class changes that are meant to benefit PvPers, and vice versa, without stepping on each the others' toes. Why isn't that seen as only fair?

The problem is, Zenimax is NOT coming out and assuring us that they already have those safeguards in mind or hand!

Again, if we could just get confirmation, this whole thread could be left to die.

Logan9a

I'll be curious what is to keep a player from killing lots of NPC's then fleeing into the woods. Because they can resupply through their other characters (or friendly PC's) there is no reason to go into towns unless you are there to lay waste.

In some games, these people were called "woods guys".

(No, there were no 'woods girls' but it was a LARP so we didn't have cross dressers like in MMO's.)

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I WAS on a PvE realm, and that locking down of towns still happened.

So... The PVE realm is just the same with some features removed. You expect them to change the whole game because some people don't want to PVP. WoW was designed as a PVP game. They only put in PVE realms in because they wanted your money. Didn't like the game mechanics... tough!

That's the ENTIRE POINT of this thread - PvP stepping on PvE toes where it IS NOT WANTED. If that crap had existed ONLY on PvP realms, then there'd be no problem - but PvPers just LOVE to try to get everyone involved in their damn PvP whether anyone else wants it or not - they STILL will wait and walk into your AOEs to flag you on PVE realms; in fact, there was lots of World Boss griefing by opposite factions - getting the group attacking, say, Galleon flagged by sending some of their guys in to get hit, then attacking the people attacking Galleon - again, _PVE REALM_, where that sort of nonsense shouldn't even be POSSIBLE.

So when it's about PVP it's "PvP stepping on PvE toes" but when it's PVE it's fine? I say it's some PVE players being crybaby's because they got beat up.

We are NOT "anti-justice system" - we want to know PRECISELY how this stuff is going to work, and make damn sure that what happened in WoW does NOT happen here.

We ALL want to know what is to come. Why do you think they realese some information? It's anticipation.

If ZOS would be KIND enough to open their darn mouths, and give us some details (assuming they at least have the rules in hand - if, as someone said, it's ready to go for PTR, then they should REALLY have an idea of how it's going to work) so that all this speculation can END, and we can worry about any _real_ flaws it may well have, IF ANY.

Why would ZOS want the speculation to end? That's the point, they want people to talk about their game. You know, rather than the new barracks wow are putting in...

Barring that, I'm going to take the suggestion to dl the PTS and will be more than happy to try to exploit the hell out of it, and think like a griefer, to make sure griefing can't be done live.

You only think it's griefing because it's not to your taste. I would be happy to have PVE realms if in return I and like minded PVP players could have decent open world PVP.
I honestly didn't know you could do what you described in WoW on the PVE servers, why would I. I guess it's not 'PvP stepping on PvE toes'

But it tells you something about some PVE players. Happy to grief in this way, but to scared to PVP.
I would suggest it's these players that ruin thing for both PVP and PVE players. I've always thought so, but PVE players are so ready to blame the PVP players.

Aren't you the guy who thinks it'd be oh so BORING if you can't kill bankers, merchants, and other NPCs that PVErs need to use? Oh, that's not griefing?

Because of people like you, they NEVER should have opened the Pandora's box of a justice system, and just kept PvP in its own proper playpen, Cyrodiil. Oh, but that's too boring, because you can't bother the PvErs with your NPC-killing and AOE-flagging.

I'll be thinking like you, on the PTS, so that you CANNOT bring this garbage to Live, and there'll be NO WAY you can suck PvErs into your sick little CoD army-boy world. If I want to PvP, I'd rather play a board game or join the damn army (at least I'm not one who wants to see soldiers arrested for doing their jobs.)

Annoying PvP should NEVER have happened on PVE realms - the PvPers had their own playgrounds in PvP realms, but THEY ALL INFEST PVE SERVERS NOW.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

lol so much irrational rage.

This kind of post is what stops people from caring or taking your side seriously. It's obvious you are only interested in your needs and become blindly angry at anyone who wants something else.

You don't want to share the game with other people or even participate at all. This is an MMO, you do actually have to play with others.

Before these threads I was just confused as to what the problem was since it is opt in. Now, I desperately want them to implement full on world pvp so I can become the griefer you assume we all are.

Tannakaobi

Haewk wrote: »

Lets face it, killing NPCs = PvE. So if you want open world PvP why not just have a flag people can turn on? Why even bring NPCs into it? Give the PvPers what they apparently want without affecting PvE at all.

Yes, Killing NPC's is PVE, the point of the PVP around it is to add to the 'risk' of doing the evil thing.

I think it would be wrong if I saw a person murder another and 'I' as a warrior could not 'do' anything. I also think that people that choose to be a vamp and WW should be open to PVP, for the same reason. They are evil, they should play the role of being evil. Which is to have a hero like me put an end to them.

I can see why they don't though, but 'no' PVP with the justice system would be unacceptable in my own opinion. Where would the 'justice' be?

Talking about the system is speculation. Lets wait and see how it is implemented before we discuss if it is good or not. I have no reason to think it won't though. Even if not at first, they will find a balance.

Edit: Also, it adds a twist, it will be your own faction your fighting. It adds to the grittiness that is Elder Scrolls.
To add to that: I can see groups of friends having a lot of fun with this.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

Lets face it, killing NPCs = PvE. So if you want open world PvP why not just have a flag people can turn on? Why even bring NPCs into it? Give the PvPers what they apparently want without affecting PvE at all.

Yes, Killing NPC's is PVE, the point of the PVP around it is to add to the 'risk' of doing the evil thing.

I think it would be wrong if I saw a person murder another and 'I' as a warrior could not 'do' anything. I also think that people that choose to be a vamp and WW should be open to PVP, for the same reason. They are evil, they should play the role of being evil. Which is to have a hero like me put an end to them.

I can see why they don't though, but 'no' PVP with the justice system would be unacceptable in my own opinion. Where would the 'justice' be?

Talking about the system is speculation. Lets wait and see how it is implemented before we discuss if it is good or not. I have no reason to think it won't though. Even if not at first, they will find a balance.

I am not evil. I tried to be, but this game makes me feel guilty for picking evil options.

I am totally behind being open pvp as long as I can initiate it back.

Watching someone prep to pk me with no way to interfere other than run seems a bit unfair.

That's why I am hoping the guard/criminal things work that those two groups are open pvp to each other universally. Though I don't know what would be done about players who are invulnerable healing one side or the other. Also, if you ae heal, how does it choose the side for you to heal?

RoseVex

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

RoseVex wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

RoseVex wrote: »

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

How would infamy logically have an effect on being able to change equipment? and why did that come before players in your alliance being able to kill you...

Sorry, i probably didn't explain it clearly enough, it's been a while since I played that MMO and i rarely went around pking those in my alliance so I'm a little hazy on the specifics but with the 'not being able to equip/unequip items' thing, it was a punishment for pking others so if you'd equipped a set for PVP rather than PVE, you couldn't switch them back until the infamy had gone.

As for other players killing you, normally you had to turn your PVP flag on to PK others, but once you had enough infamy, other players didn't need to switch the flag on to PK you. I think it worked as well that they didn't gain infamy for killing you at that point. I may have to go log in and find out exactly how it worked.

that's terrible. Punishing players for using a feature of the game as intended.

That's just how the system worked for that game, mainly to stop higher lvls harassing the lowbies. I remember one person in particular who pretty much always had max infamy. He wouldn't do anything until we decided to do some PVP then he would be actively killing our relic carriers and resetting temples.

Tannakaobi

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

That's why I am hoping the guard/criminal things work that those two groups are open pvp to each other universally. Though I don't know what would be done about players who are invulnerable healing one side or the other. Also, if you ae heal, how does it choose the side for you to heal?

I'd like to think it will be timed for Guard duty and you will be open to attack current bounties.
However even if you are in the guilds I hope you would be able to do guard duty. So long as you don't have a bounty. Perhaps with a guild penalty even.

Guess we will find out soon enough.

Good question about the healing, although a healer will only be able to join the fight if one or the other so I imagine it would work it's self out.

babylon

DeLindsay wrote: »

The Justice system won't negatively effect ANYONE that chooses not to participate.

Oh but it will, because we will be constantly knocked out of the banking window every time someone whacks the banker or any nearby NPC.

hk11

I always enjoyed the npc killing in WoW. Sometimes it would escalate into an all out war of factions in the middle of nowhere. I miss that...

They even added it on purpose with the "For the Horde/Alliance" achievements.

reagen_lionel

The difference here is they get a bounty for doing that, and that racks up pretty quickly. Theres also the case of other people that can bounty hunt them at anytime.

Its not faction based such as wow. So you have a much higher chance of another high level coming to get them at any time.

rotiferuk

apostate9 wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?

Who is this royal "We"? I don't claim to know [snip] about why YOU are here, but I want an open-world sandbox MMO where I can do as much as the game mechanics can reasonably allow me to do. If carebears want a single-player ES game where the world revolves around their wants and theirs alone, I think Bethesda might make a few.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Yet you want the world to revolve around YOUR wants and needs. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Anyway, I have flagged your post as inappropriate due to your use of the word "carebear". Have a nice day.


Moderator Edit: Edited quote from moderated post.

Knootewoot

I don't understand most of the posts here. Why the complains?

If i kill NPC's ina town, how do i force other players in PvP? If you don't take my bounty you won't have to PvP. It is not like i can kill you to.

Also (sadly) i don't think you can kill bankers or quest givers like the modern tes-games (oblivion/skyrim).

Maybe they do it like Vanguard. I could kill anything, but they would re-appear as ghosts so people could still do the quests.

It isn't even out yet. Just wait and whine when it is done. I am sure they will take care of all issues it could bring up.

rotiferuk

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't understand most of the posts here. Why the complains?

If i kill NPC's ina town, how do i force other players in PvP? If you don't take my bounty you won't have to PvP. It is not like i can kill you to.

Also (sadly) i don't think you can kill bankers or quest givers like the modern tes-games (oblivion/skyrim).

Maybe they do it like Vanguard. I could kill anything, but they would re-appear as ghosts so people could still do the quests.

If someone attacks a banker ( for example) it causes the banker to flinch. This in turn would cause the banker's player interaction screen to close. If lots of people decide to attack a banker it would make it impossible for people to use that bank.

Knootewoot wrote: »

It isn't even out yet. Just wait and whine when it is done. I am sure they will take care of all issues it could bring up.

People are not "whining", they are voicing what they consider to be legitimate concerns.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO

Innocente wrote: »

An interesting video, but assumptions are the mother of all failures. And here, the assumption is that a single player is involved. How long do you think that guard would have lasted against six to ten VR12 players?

Like I said, they will sweep through these towns like a plague, clear them, and keep them cleared.

It will be great if Vendors, Quest NPCs, and other important ones are unkillable, but still. The developers assume to much about the behavior of internet peoples, I think. History has shown that if there is a way to grief game play, it will be done.

In a single player game, this kind of mechanic is fine. But in an MMO or Multi-Player Theme Park game, it is insane.

lol I love how you say that assumptions are the mother of all failures when you are, yourself, assuming. I don't see why vet rank 12 players would sweep the towns. They haven't given any real indication to say that killing NPCs will give you any kind of experience... also, you can't kill quest givers, so who cares if the rest of the NPCs are killed? They'll respawn quickly enough, I'm sure. And who cares if several vet level characters attack a single guard? There will be more guards and also other players acting as Bounty Hunters who can stop the Vet 12 guys' tyranny.

You can't judge a game solely on the failures of games before it. ZoS is made up of industry veterans whom I'm sure have put a lot of thought into the system.

Knootewoot

rotiferuk wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't understand most of the posts here. Why the complains?

If i kill NPC's ina town, how do i force other players in PvP? If you don't take my bounty you won't have to PvP. It is not like i can kill you to.

Also (sadly) i don't think you can kill bankers or quest givers like the modern tes-games (oblivion/skyrim).

Maybe they do it like Vanguard. I could kill anything, but they would re-appear as ghosts so people could still do the quests.

If someone attacks a banker ( for example) it causes the banker to flinch. This in turn would cause the banker's player interaction screen to close. If lots of people decide to attack a banker it would make it impossible for people to use that bank.

Knootewoot wrote: »

It isn't even out yet. Just wait and whine when it is done. I am sure they will take care of all issues it could bring up.

People are not "whining", they are voicing what they consider to be legitimate concerns.

If they attack the banker? As said.. you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can.

All you have seen is 1 minute footage of a guy stealing salt and one-shot a few NPC's in the town. Clearly alpha and yes i call that whining. As i said, i am sure they will adress any issues before releasing and i am sure you won't be able to attack bankers or quest givers.

isengrimb16_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

Lets face it, killing NPCs = PvE. So if you want open world PvP why not just have a flag people can turn on? Why even bring NPCs into it? Give the PvPers what they apparently want without affecting PvE at all.

Yes, Killing NPC's is PVE, the point of the PVP around it is to add to the 'risk' of doing the evil thing.

I think it would be wrong if I saw a person murder another and 'I' as a warrior could not 'do' anything. I also think that people that choose to be a vamp and WW should be open to PVP, for the same reason. They are evil, they should play the role of being evil. Which is to have a hero like me put an end to them.

I can see why they don't though, but 'no' PVP with the justice system would be unacceptable in my own opinion. Where would the 'justice' be?

Talking about the system is speculation. Lets wait and see how it is implemented before we discuss if it is good or not. I have no reason to think it won't though. Even if not at first, they will find a balance.

Edit: Also, it adds a twist, it will be your own faction your fighting. It adds to the grittiness that is Elder Scrolls.
To add to that: I can see groups of friends having a lot of fun with this.

I don't think ALL pvpers are griefers - Just the butthole surfers who INSIST on being able to irritate non-pvpers with bumping/attacking bankers and merchants, who think that not being able to kill them will take all the "fun" out of the justice system because they can't bother PvErs with their PvP.

Bankers and merchants, etc, shouldn't even be ATTACKABLE. It should be confined to special butthole NPCs who are specially designed to try to pick fights for to initiate this "justice system". Because the whole point is to flag yourself to pvp with other players, what does it matter what NPC you attack? Why does ANYONE need to attack a banker, quest-giver, or merchant, anyway?

babylon

Knootewoot wrote: »

you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can..

We DO know people can attack the banker - a ZOS employee stated that in this very thread - bankers can be attacked and can react to nearby attacks on other NPCs, they just can't be killed.

Here is the relevant quote below -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This means that we will be knocked out of the banking window any time the banker gets hit or any nearby NPC gets hit, something that will be very disruptive to all players of this game.

I am also thinking it will be very handy for disrupting competing guilds when they hire the guild merchant guys.

rotiferuk

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Again, your confusing me with someone else. There is nothing boring about Cyrodiil for me. I have no wish to do anything with PVE players that don't wish to be involved in PVP.

So why do you want to kill NPCs in PvE zones?

Er... because it's an Elder Scrolls game.

This is a MMO. In the case of the upcoming Justice System a player's actions will impact (either directly or indirectly) on other players near to them

Tannakaobi wrote: »

I honestly think people are looking at it in the wrong way.
You won't be able to kill bankers, quest givers, venders.. Killing people will result in heavy costs in gold. There will be little griefing because of this.

All griefers have to do is attack a vendor / quest giver / banker /etc. This will cause the player interaction window to close repeatedly.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Also other PVP players such as myself won't allow it. You think I would hesitate putting down a player who is doing this? (if it's even possible) It's a free grief free kill. There are many players that will think that way.
.

This will only make things worse. At busy times there are already lots of players gathered around key areas. It's going to be even worse with a battle raging and all the game active NPC's shutting down.

Also, when I'm in Cyrodiil I enjoy brandishing my weapon as much as the next player. However, I don't feel any need to wave it about in a PvE area.

isengrimb16_ESO

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

An interesting video, but assumptions are the mother of all failures. And here, the assumption is that a single player is involved. How long do you think that guard would have lasted against six to ten VR12 players?

Like I said, they will sweep through these towns like a plague, clear them, and keep them cleared.

It will be great if Vendors, Quest NPCs, and other important ones are unkillable, but still. The developers assume to much about the behavior of internet peoples, I think. History has shown that if there is a way to grief game play, it will be done.

In a single player game, this kind of mechanic is fine. But in an MMO or Multi-Player Theme Park game, it is insane.

lol I love how you say that assumptions are the mother of all failures when you are, yourself, assuming. I don't see why vet rank 12 players would sweep the towns. They haven't given any real indication to say that killing NPCs will give you any kind of experience... also, you can't kill quest givers, so who cares if the rest of the NPCs are killed? They'll respawn quickly enough, I'm sure. And who cares if several vet level characters attack a single guard? There will be more guards and also other players acting as Bounty Hunters who can stop the Vet 12 guys' tyranny.

You can't judge a game solely on the failures of games before it. ZoS is made up of industry veterans whom I'm sure have put a lot of thought into the system.

YOU'RE SURE that respawns will be so fast, we won't notice. Sorry if I don't take your word for it. ZOS, where are you to clear this up, instead of just censoring out names, hmmm?

isengrimb16_ESO

Knootewoot wrote: »

rotiferuk wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't understand most of the posts here. Why the complains?

If i kill NPC's ina town, how do i force other players in PvP? If you don't take my bounty you won't have to PvP. It is not like i can kill you to.

Also (sadly) i don't think you can kill bankers or quest givers like the modern tes-games (oblivion/skyrim).

Maybe they do it like Vanguard. I could kill anything, but they would re-appear as ghosts so people could still do the quests.

If someone attacks a banker ( for example) it causes the banker to flinch. This in turn would cause the banker's player interaction screen to close. If lots of people decide to attack a banker it would make it impossible for people to use that bank.

Knootewoot wrote: »

It isn't even out yet. Just wait and whine when it is done. I am sure they will take care of all issues it could bring up.

People are not "whining", they are voicing what they consider to be legitimate concerns.

If they attack the banker? As said.. you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can.

All you have seen is 1 minute footage of a guy stealing salt and one-shot a few NPC's in the town. Clearly alpha and yes i call that whining. As i said, i am sure they will adress any issues before releasing and i am sure you won't be able to attack bankers or quest givers.

If you read back, the ONLY thing ZOS has told us that Bankers ARE attackable, but not killable - they WILL flinch, and if they do so, our windows will most likely close (as has been reported for a banker in Kenarthi's Roost - it likes to walk around.)

So what's to stop jerktrains from going straight to the bank and griefing people by chain-attacking the banker (with guards rushing in, maybe, and no one being able to do bank business)? even if they're not organized, you have one come along, then another 20 seconds later, someone else decides to do it, and so on. What a way to shut down a city - happened in Detroit, that's why decent people abandoned the place - nice architecture, but the baddies took over decades ago, and forced it to slowly rot. It simply wasn't worth it to live even across the river from the place, as their crime bled over the border.

Do we REALLY want to see the towns and cities of Tamriel turned into Detroit because everyone wants to be a criminal griefer (perhaps even guards?)

Make it difficult to get mixed up in the justice system. Make essential NPCs unattackable, and make special NPCs for the wpvpers who want this crap. Just make it so everyone else can go about their business without being affected by this Detroit chaos nonsense.

Knootewoot

babylon wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

you don't even know of you CAN attack the banker or quest givers, and i dount you can..

We DO know people can attack the banker - a ZOS employee stated that in this very thread - bankers can be attacked and can react to nearby attacks on other NPCs, they just can't be killed.

Here is the relevant quote below -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

This means that we will be knocked out of the banking window any time the banker gets hit or any nearby NPC gets hit, something that will be very disruptive to all players of this game.

I am also thinking it will be very handy for disrupting competing guilds when they hire the guild merchant guys.

Ok i missed that part sorry for that. But for me the game gets better with this. Everybody wants to smack the banker in Glenumbra in the face, i am sure.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Delith wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

The point of the original post is not to claim what the feature WILL be, but to warn against what the feature COULD be without very careful development.

If we all wait until the feature is released to speak out, it will be far to late. You all KNOW how long it takes ZOS to make significant changes to any currently implemented system.

Better to speak out now about the dangers and pitfalls than to remain silent and see the game placed in even further jeopardy.

I would also like to point out that the vast majority of 'normal' players are actually not group orientated and are playing ESO as a single player game. These folks will have no chance against even a small team of dedicated PvP griefers. It is not going to be very much fun for them to see virtually entire towns wiped out, except for whatever 'invulnerable' NPCs ZOS has enabled.

The 'Guards' and 'Infamy' systems never worked in WoW, and are not working in EVE. Why should they be expected to work here?

I guess you can just go play one of the other myriad games that caters to people who are risk averse and just want a mind numbing faceroll through pointless content, and let the Elder Scrolls players have their game. Almost every single MMO on the market today is designed for players like you. Choose one, and enjoy.

And "not working in EVE"? LOL. Okay.

Spoken like a true PVPer.

Laerania_ESO

Well... I guess this happens when you try to convert a single-player RPG into a MMORPG without the right people to do it.

Let's hope they can control the damage asap.