What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

rsciw

Looking forward to seeing someone trying to kill the siege vendors in Cyro and just how fast they'll be whacked

Nox_Aeterna

Personally i hope they make this mini game only valid for those that enter it.

If i dont become either a guard or a criminal FIRST then nothing changes for me.

I can keep doing all im doing now and this whole thing does not in anyway influence my game.

Those that decide to play cop and robber should talk to an NPC to decide their "job" and then do whatever they want.

Samadhi

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i hope they make this mini game only valid for those that enter it.

If i dont become either a guard or a criminal FIRST then nothing changes for me.

I can keep doing all im doing now and this whole thing does not in anyway influence my game.

Those that decide to play cop and robber should talk to an NPC to decide their "job" and then do whatever they want.

I'm almost expecting the steal mechanic to be unlocked by the Thieves Guild; the murder mechanic to be unlocked by the Dark Brotherhood; and the option to become a Guard as its own mechanic.

I'm interested to see how they implement the system moving forward though.

Vandermeer

People forget phasing. High level characters would only bother each other. Starter zones can be off limits.

RoseVex

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

RoseVex wrote: »

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

How would infamy logically have an effect on being able to change equipment? and why did that come before players in your alliance being able to kill you...

Sorry, i probably didn't explain it clearly enough, it's been a while since I played that MMO and i rarely went around pking those in my alliance so I'm a little hazy on the specifics but with the 'not being able to equip/unequip items' thing, it was a punishment for pking others so if you'd equipped a set for PVP rather than PVE, you couldn't switch them back until the infamy had gone.

As for other players killing you, normally you had to turn your PVP flag on to PK others, but once you had enough infamy, other players didn't need to switch the flag on to PK you. I think it worked as well that they didn't gain infamy for killing you at that point. I may have to go log in and find out exactly how it worked.

Tubben

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

The moment every banker or in general NPC is dead, no other player around and anarchy wide spread wont even happen in an MMO. It didn't at no time at WOW, Ultima or DAOC.

WoW : Booty Bay lockdown. That went that bad that players were unable to quest there for hours.

DAOC: I find it funny that PvPer use daoc as their argument. A game where player were unable to enter the PvE Zones of an different realm, where PvE'er never ever meet RvR (PvP) if they didnt want.

Tubben

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

try to understand that this isn't only their game, but also the game of PVP addicts

The moment this game caters to "pvp addicts" in the open world, is the day the game loses the pve players.

So... what would the downside of that be?

a bankrupt Zenimax.

DeLindsay

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

The moment every banker or in general NPC is dead, no other player around and anarchy wide spread wont even happen in an MMO. It didn't at no time at WOW, Ultima or DAOC.

Except that won't happen since NO important NPC (Bankers, Quest givers, Merchants, etc) will be killable, just like in TES games. The Justice system won't negatively effect ANYONE that chooses not to participate.

Tubben

Audigy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

try to understand that this isn't only their game, but also the game of PVP addicts

The moment this game caters to "pvp addicts" in the open world, is the day the game loses the pve players.

So... what would the downside of that be?

Game dies and ZOS pulls the plug, because pvp players just aren't a big enough crowd to sustain a AAA MMO and its overheads. Unless they turned the game into a spreadsheet like EVE.

Tell this DAOC, its still kicking after 10 years

Bad argument.
First: DAOC is closed. Freeshards dont count.
Second: RvR (PvP) was only possible in the RvR Areas. In PvE Areas (The largest part of the whole World) RvR was impossible.

I could play this game without ever be attacked by another player, or bothered by RvR, because NO ENEMY COULD ENTER MY REALM.

zhevon

Anastasia wrote: »

According to Zenimax players want a Justice System...........apparently. Or, it could be a way to introduce world PvP by stealth. Either way, I can see it all ending in tears.

Nicely said.

tordr86b16_ESO

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yieYXj5cDKE&list=RDyieYXj5cDKE#t=10

Tannakaobi

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the grievers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

This is a ridiculous thread!

For one you have missed much of the truth so the comment reads as a lie.
Here is the thing. What you are talking about in WoW is a form of open world PVP. You can't attack your own faction. The idea is that you take a village, kill the low levels and hold the village. Then they tell their mates and moan in Guild/trade chat, or whatever.. and then they come to try and take back the village. If you never enjoyed a bit of this form of PVP in WoW I have to ask... what were you doing? WoW developers didn't learn, they created it that way. It was intentional, many people would say it is one of the many elements that made WoW great. Maybe things have changed in WoW, but then it is a shadow of what it once was.

If you didn't like that kind of thing then move away for a time, there was always plenty to do in WoW. It was never a problem.
The people that wanted to grief were the max leveled players that hung around outside Booty Bay ganking level 30's. If you had problems with that then... PVE realm....

The last comment is purely speculation based on the same amount of ignorance as the rest. ZOS would be wise to not listen to the likes of you. The justice system is just the thing ESO needs imo.

tordr86b16_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

The last comment is purely speculation based on the same amount of ignorance as the rest. ZOS would be wise to not listen to the likes of you. The justice system is just the thing ESO needs imo.

Yup, I hope they know who to listen to and which ones to ignore.

apostate9

pecheckler wrote: »

With all the rookie MMO mistakes i've seen ESO bring thus far, I'm not expecting any less with this new system. Rest assured that the primary use of the justice system will be to enable griefers to carry out their troll player killings. Some group of players will find a way to ruin the experiences of others using the justice system, or at least bait the innocent into unsuspecting death by overwhelming force. There will be exploits of game mechanics which result in the noble player dying.

This was the entirely wrong way to go with PvP. Combat which is far more structured than Cyrodiil is the proper direction.

No.

Anastasia

Innocente wrote: »

The point of the original post is not to claim what the feature WILL be, but to warn against what the feature COULD be without very careful development.

If we all wait until the feature is released to speak out, it will be far to late. You all KNOW how long it takes ZOS to make significant changes to any currently implemented system.

Better to speak out now about the dangers and pitfalls than to remain silent and see the game placed in even further jeopardy.

I would also like to point out that the vast majority of 'normal' players are actually not group orientated and are playing ESO as a single player game. These folks will have no chance against even a small team of dedicated PvP griefers. It is not going to be very much fun for them to see virtually entire towns wiped out, except for whatever 'invulnerable' NPCs ZOS has enabled.

The 'Guards' and 'Infamy' systems never worked in WoW, and are not working in EVE. Why should they be expected to work here?

---

Innocente - good points: "...what the feature COULD be without very careful development. If we all wait until the feature is released to speak out, it will be far to late. You all KNOW how long it takes ZOS to make significant changes to any currently implemented system."

Thing is heh, you know if the Justice System is being marketed, if its goin to see the light of day on PTS soon -- they've already got the base functionality completed. Seriously, we don't have all the info, but its pretty much done and surely one cannot expect to ask for 360-degree changes BEFORE its live on some server, somewhere.

I may be wrong, but I'm thinkin' its already 'developed'. Now we just wait as usual to see HOW its implemented and how much FUN it might be...!

apostate9

Ranger wrote: »

Geeez why does Zos think this is a must have in this game. To appease the fat, single parent, teenage , sociopath, working a dead end job at Kmart and help them live they're killing spree fantasy? Whats the point?

Socially detrimental.

Thieves Guild on the other hand is another kettle of fish. Such as defending yourself from guards and such.

Wow...judgemental much?

apostate9

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?

Who is this royal "We"? I don't claim to know [snip] about why YOU are here, but I want an open-world sandbox MMO where I can do as much as the game mechanics can reasonably allow me to do. If carebears want a single-player ES game where the world revolves around their wants and theirs alone, I think Bethesda might make a few.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

apostate9

Vandermeer wrote: »

People forget phasing. High level characters would only bother each other. Starter zones can be off limits.

That's actually not how phasing works at all. Starter zones are never off limits, nor should they be.

Audigy

I am honestly shocked how rude and disrespectful several "anti justice system" people are in this thread.

Not only do they put every person supporting the system in the "no life, no job, no friends" box - but they also try to deny other players a highly requested feature just because they don't like pvp.

With such hostile people around the thread makes no sense at all, I can only plea for more tolerance but I guess this request is pretty much pointless with those people around.

isengrimb16_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the grievers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

This is a ridiculous thread!

For one you have missed much of the truth so the comment reads as a lie.
Here is the thing. What you are talking about in WoW is a form of open world PVP. You can't attack your own faction. The idea is that you take a village, kill the low levels and hold the village. Then they tell their mates and moan in Guild/trade chat, or whatever.. and then they come to try and take back the village. If you never enjoyed a bit of this form of PVP in WoW I have to ask... what were you doing? WoW developers didn't learn, they created it that way. It was intentional, many people would say it is one of the many elements that made WoW great. Maybe things have changed in WoW, but then it is a shadow of what it once was.

If you didn't like that kind of thing then move away for a time, there was always plenty to do in WoW. It was never a problem.
The people that wanted to grief were the max leveled players that hung around outside Booty Bay ganking level 30's. If you had problems with that then... PVE realm....

The last comment is purely speculation based on the same amount of ignorance as the rest. ZOS would be wise to not listen to the likes of you. The justice system is just the thing ESO needs imo.

I WAS on a PvE realm, and that locking down of towns still happened.

That's the ENTIRE POINT of this thread - PvP stepping on PvE toes where it IS NOT WANTED. If that crap had existed ONLY on PvP realms, then there'd be no problem - but PvPers just LOVE to try to get everyone involved in their damn PvP whether anyone else wants it or not - they STILL will wait and walk into your AOEs to flag you on PVE realms; in fact, there was lots of World Boss griefing by opposite factions - getting the group attacking, say, Galleon flagged by sending some of their guys in to get hit, then attacking the people attacking Galleon - again, _PVE REALM_, where that sort of nonsense shouldn't even be POSSIBLE.

We are NOT "anti-justice system" - we want to know PRECISELY how this stuff is going to work, and make damn sure that what happened in WoW does NOT happen here - non-consensual PvP. That's the problem, the possibility for that.

If ZOS would be KIND enough to open their darn mouths, and give us some details (assuming they at least have the rules in hand - if, as someone said, it's ready to go for PTR, then they should REALLY have an idea of how it's going to work) so that all this speculation can END, and we can worry about any _real_ flaws it may well have, IF ANY.

Barring that, I'm going to take the suggestion to dl the PTS and will be more than happy to try to exploit the hell out of it, and think like a griefer, to make sure griefing can't be done live.

Nox_Aeterna

Audigy wrote: »

I am honestly shocked how rude and disrespectful several "anti justice system" people are in this thread.

Not only do they put every person supporting the system in the "no life, no job, no friends" box - but they also try to deny other players a highly requested feature just because they don't like pvp.

With such hostile people around the thread makes no sense at all, I can only plea for more tolerance but I guess this request is pretty much pointless with those people around.

Really now?

The same could be said about the people defending the justice system:

apostate9 wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?

Who is this royal "We"? I don't claim to know [snip] about why YOU are here, but I want an open-world sandbox MMO where I can do as much as the game mechanics can reasonably allow me to do. If carebears want a single-player ES game where the world revolves around their wants and theirs alone, I think Bethesda might make a few.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Dont try to put one group above the other , like always , both have more resonable and less resonable people.

Moderator Edit: Edited quote from moderated post.

aletad11_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

If there is any way that a player can interfere with another player who is innocently trying to bank or buy/sell from a merchant, you can rest assured they will do so. They already annoy people in the bank by repeatedly casting spells again and again for who knows what reason.

Please...PLEASE....do not allow bankers, merchants, quest givers or any other npc besides the "flavor" ones to be attacked by other players. No amount of testing on the Test Center is going to help that.

I've been playing online mmo's since 1997, and I would swear on a stack of bibles, this will not work. No way. Don't do it, and then wait until half the player base rage quits to fix it. The only way I can see this being feasible at all is for them to have bodyguards near them so that if a banker or merchant is attacked, the bodyguard and not the npc will attack the offending player.

Nox_Aeterna

You know , what i find really annoying , is that on most games i played , for some reason , the PvP players always come up and try to force PvE players to play with them for some reason.

This happens all the time.

The PvE players just dont want to play PvP with you guys , sorry , but really , deal with it.

Stop trying to force people into this.

The justice is fine , FOR THOSE THAT WANT IT.

You want to play cop and robbers with others? Fine , go play it. Stop trying to drag the kid that does not want to join you , they might just want to be left in peace to play something else.

Zen is adding the system , players will be able to kill some NPCs , steal and all that. Now , leave the NPCs the other kids use for playing alone , you have yours , stop trying to force them to join you.

Those that want to play with the justice system will do so. Trying to force everyone into this will just *** a LOT of players.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

RoseVex wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

RoseVex wrote: »

Another MMO I played worked on a system of Infamy, the more infamy you had, the worse it got for you. If you had more than 3 infamy, you couldn't equip or unequip items, if you reached 10+ infamy (i think) other players in your alliance could pk you

How would infamy logically have an effect on being able to change equipment? and why did that come before players in your alliance being able to kill you...

Sorry, i probably didn't explain it clearly enough, it's been a while since I played that MMO and i rarely went around pking those in my alliance so I'm a little hazy on the specifics but with the 'not being able to equip/unequip items' thing, it was a punishment for pking others so if you'd equipped a set for PVP rather than PVE, you couldn't switch them back until the infamy had gone.

As for other players killing you, normally you had to turn your PVP flag on to PK others, but once you had enough infamy, other players didn't need to switch the flag on to PK you. I think it worked as well that they didn't gain infamy for killing you at that point. I may have to go log in and find out exactly how it worked.

that's terrible. Punishing players for using a feature of the game as intended.

Tannakaobi

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I WAS on a PvE realm, and that locking down of towns still happened.

So... The PVE realm is just the same with some features removed. You expect them to change the whole game because some people don't want to PVP. WoW was designed as a PVP game. They only put in PVE realms in because they wanted your money. Didn't like the game mechanics... tough!

That's the ENTIRE POINT of this thread - PvP stepping on PvE toes where it IS NOT WANTED. If that crap had existed ONLY on PvP realms, then there'd be no problem - but PvPers just LOVE to try to get everyone involved in their damn PvP whether anyone else wants it or not - they STILL will wait and walk into your AOEs to flag you on PVE realms; in fact, there was lots of World Boss griefing by opposite factions - getting the group attacking, say, Galleon flagged by sending some of their guys in to get hit, then attacking the people attacking Galleon - again, _PVE REALM_, where that sort of nonsense shouldn't even be POSSIBLE.

So when it's about PVP it's "PvP stepping on PvE toes" but when it's PVE it's fine? I say it's some PVE players being crybaby's because they got beat up.

We are NOT "anti-justice system" - we want to know PRECISELY how this stuff is going to work, and make damn sure that what happened in WoW does NOT happen here.

We ALL want to know what is to come. Why do you think they realese some information? It's anticipation.

If ZOS would be KIND enough to open their darn mouths, and give us some details (assuming they at least have the rules in hand - if, as someone said, it's ready to go for PTR, then they should REALLY have an idea of how it's going to work) so that all this speculation can END, and we can worry about any _real_ flaws it may well have, IF ANY.

Why would ZOS want the speculation to end? That's the point, they want people to talk about their game. You know, rather than the new barracks wow are putting in...

Barring that, I'm going to take the suggestion to dl the PTS and will be more than happy to try to exploit the hell out of it, and think like a griefer, to make sure griefing can't be done live.

You only think it's griefing because it's not to your taste. I would be happy to have PVE realms if in return I and like minded PVP players could have decent open world PVP.
I honestly didn't know you could do what you described in WoW on the PVE servers, why would I. I guess it's not 'PvP stepping on PvE toes'

But it tells you something about some PVE players. Happy to grief in this way, but to scared to PVP.
I would suggest it's these players that ruin thing for both PVP and PVE players. I've always thought so, but PVE players are so ready to blame the PVP players.

Evergnar

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yieYXj5cDKE&list=RDyieYXj5cDKE#t=10

I miss those gruff voices of TES past. When half of Tamriel hated your guts.

Spottswoode

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Please remind me, why do we now want to kill NPCs? How is this a good idea?

Because Maiq needs to learn to stop lying. Permanently. (If I can catch him.)

Seriously, crime has been a core part of TES games for forever. And most people like a little insanity in their games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-E1lXgE_TM

Random moments where the world goes bonkers are some of my fondest memories in TES. Playing it with other people can make it even more fun.

Evergnar wrote: »

I miss those gruff voices of TES past. When half of Tamriel hated your guts.

Rehabilitation was definitely NOT the model the Tamriel justice system used.

isengrimb16_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I WAS on a PvE realm, and that locking down of towns still happened.

So... The PVE realm is just the same with some features removed. You expect them to change the whole game because some people don't want to PVP. WoW was designed as a PVP game. They only put in PVE realms in because they wanted your money. Didn't like the game mechanics... tough!

That's the ENTIRE POINT of this thread - PvP stepping on PvE toes where it IS NOT WANTED. If that crap had existed ONLY on PvP realms, then there'd be no problem - but PvPers just LOVE to try to get everyone involved in their damn PvP whether anyone else wants it or not - they STILL will wait and walk into your AOEs to flag you on PVE realms; in fact, there was lots of World Boss griefing by opposite factions - getting the group attacking, say, Galleon flagged by sending some of their guys in to get hit, then attacking the people attacking Galleon - again, _PVE REALM_, where that sort of nonsense shouldn't even be POSSIBLE.

So when it's about PVP it's "PvP stepping on PvE toes" but when it's PVE it's fine? I say it's some PVE players being crybaby's because they got beat up.

We are NOT "anti-justice system" - we want to know PRECISELY how this stuff is going to work, and make damn sure that what happened in WoW does NOT happen here.

We ALL want to know what is to come. Why do you think they realese some information? It's anticipation.

If ZOS would be KIND enough to open their darn mouths, and give us some details (assuming they at least have the rules in hand - if, as someone said, it's ready to go for PTR, then they should REALLY have an idea of how it's going to work) so that all this speculation can END, and we can worry about any _real_ flaws it may well have, IF ANY.

Why would ZOS want the speculation to end? That's the point, they want people to talk about their game. You know, rather than the new barracks wow are putting in...

Barring that, I'm going to take the suggestion to dl the PTS and will be more than happy to try to exploit the hell out of it, and think like a griefer, to make sure griefing can't be done live.

You only think it's griefing because it's not to your taste. I would be happy to have PVE realms if in return I and like minded PVP players could have decent open world PVP.
I honestly didn't know you could do what you described in WoW on the PVE servers, why would I. I guess it's not 'PvP stepping on PvE toes'

But it tells you something about some PVE players. Happy to grief in this way, but to scared to PVP.
I would suggest it's these players that ruin thing for both PVP and PVE players. I've always thought so, but PVE players are so ready to blame the PVP players.

Aren't you the guy who thinks it'd be oh so BORING if you can't kill bankers, merchants, and other NPCs that PVErs need to use? Oh, that's not griefing?

Because of people like you, they NEVER should have opened the Pandora's box of a justice system, and just kept PvP in its own proper playpen, Cyrodiil. Oh, but that's too boring, because you can't bother the PvErs with your NPC-killing and AOE-flagging.

I'll be thinking like you, on the PTS, so that you CANNOT bring this garbage to Live, and there'll be NO WAY you can suck PvErs into your sick little CoD army-boy world. If I want to PvP, I'd rather play a board game or join the damn army (at least I'm not one who wants to see soldiers arrested for doing their jobs.)

Annoying PvP should NEVER have happened on PVE realms - the PvPers had their own playgrounds in PvP realms, but THEY ALL INFEST PVE SERVERS NOW.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Malpherian

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Again, if they would come out with more definite details, a lot of this might be quelled.

We already know that bankers, etc, will be unkillable but WILL be reactive. The question as to whether or not we get kicked out of screens if someone attacks the banker is legit; it seems that if a banker does move (at it stands now), the screen _does_ close. There's nothing to stop people from bumping that banker every few seconds (multiple people, or one at a time as a train of bored griefers). While the novelty might wear off after a (long) while, it'll still be a pita to have to re-catch the banker several times during a session, because a group (or just lots of people) happen to want to bug people at the bank. Especially high-levels doing this where there are usually only low-levels. (edit - At least wayshrines will enable people get guildmates' help quicker, assuming they can get any from that source.)

It would also be good to have confirmation on the "you have to be in Sneak to activate Justice Mode" thing, what if you're walking by and get caught in AOE heals or something as a fight starts, etc.

Is it possible to loot barrels by standing normally, while someone else steals by crouching?

Until it died of natural causes, yes, wpvp was an issue and a PITA on PvE servers in WoW - and it still happens from time to time - we just want to make sure the same negative consequences do not show up here, so that no one has to step on anyone's toes.

As it stands now, we just THINK we "know" how it's going to work - in the way each of us HOPES it _will_ work.

C'mon Zeni. Just a few solid facts about details, please. You MUST have the rules in hand already.

If they do their bounty will be so high they will be perma kill on sight, also you can only delete 3 characters. So these griefers will find themselves without any character to play on which isn't KOS and dies every time it spawns in.

kevlarto_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

Thats great and all but I never seem to see enough people on the test server to really gage the degree of Divergent Behavior , and when you have paying customers not getting to play the game because they are being griefed at every turn, guess what a lot of those players will unsub and move on.

what about the poor guy standing at a quest giver and some one fires off an aoe, will they be thrust into unwanted battles..
For me I don't really care I am sure I will be kicking butt and getting my butt kicked, but I do not want to tag anyone that is not taking part. Just a thought