What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing

Innocente

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Orchish

How about we wait and see what they come up with before complaining ?

Samadhi

I'll worry about this if they implement it and Quest Givers can be killed.

Until they formally announce and release the full mechanics, I'm not going to stress over it.

Innocente

Because if you wait to voice concerns until content is released, it will be, by definition, to late.

Tandor

I'd certainly agree that quest givers should be immune to attack.

As for waiting to see what the developers come up with, I'd rather players helped influence their plans rather than just sitting back quietly and then moaning non-stop after the event.

Samadhi

Tandor wrote: »

I'd certainly agree that quest givers should be immune to attack.

As for waiting to see what the developers come up with, I'd rather players helped influence their plans rather than just sitting back quietly and then moaning non-stop after the event.

Don't worry, no matter how much players moan now
there will still be players who moan non-stop after it is implemented as well.

Evaflys

Samadhi wrote: »

I'll worry about this if they implement it and Quest Givers can be killed.

Until they formally announce and release the full mechanics, I'm not going to stress over it.

I was watching the live stream of Quakecon and either Jessica or Gina mentioned in chat that quest givers cannot be killed. If you noticed now, there are npcs not tied to any quests that just stand around and do nothing but add flavor to towns.

However, I won't confirm it until an actual ZOS employee states it here. So take my statement with a grain of salt.

Innocente

What ZOS says, and what ZOS actually does, are often two widely separate things.

Samadhi

Evaflys wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

I'll worry about this if they implement it and Quest Givers can be killed.

Until they formally announce and release the full mechanics, I'm not going to stress over it.

I was watching the live stream of Quakecon and either Jessica or Gina mentioned in chat that quest givers cannot be killed. If you noticed now, there are npcs not tied to any quests that just stand around and do nothing but add flavor to towns.

However, I won't confirm it until an actual ZOS employee states it here. So take my statement with a grain of salt.

It was storming here and I missed the stream, but thank you for the insight.

I have indeed noticed the flavour NPCs. I also noticed in the video that those were the only NPCs that they killed.
The NPCs had yellow auras around them like all other non-aggro mobs have in game already.

It's also worth noting that at the 42 second mark they sneak into town; flavour NPCs have a yellow aura indicating they can be attacked but the Guard does not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFdcsmJlKE

Alphashado

The mistake wow made was allowing quest NPCs and vendor NPCs to be killed. Naturally this was a big problem when lowbies had no vendors or NPCs to turn in quests.

There are countless NPCs in ESO that are there for fluff. All they have to do is make sure that relevant NPCs are unkillable.

kieso

perhaps quest npc's will be attackable but not killable?

zhevon

Don't know about WOW, but OP is probably right.

I also would like to be able to turn off accidently hitting an NPC. I have notice the tendency to automatically draw a weapons randomly.

Innocente

An interesting video, but assumptions are the mother of all failures. And here, the assumption is that a single player is involved. How long do you think that guard would have lasted against six to ten VR12 players?

Like I said, they will sweep through these towns like a plague, clear them, and keep them cleared.

It will be great if Vendors, Quest NPCs, and other important ones are unkillable, but still. The developers assume to much about the behavior of internet peoples, I think. History has shown that if there is a way to grief game play, it will be done.

In a single player game, this kind of mechanic is fine. But in an MMO or Multi-Player Theme Park game, it is insane.

Bookwyrm

kieso wrote: »

perhaps quest npc's will be attackable but not killable?

That sounds like some serious in-game trolling. "Attack the quest NPCs, yes, yes...oh you got them down to 1% health and your attacks stopped working? TROLOLOLOLOL! Now you must die AND pay a fine, muwahahaha!"

*I do not endorse this idea, nor do I think that this will be the way the mechanic will work, just pointing out that that is some true trolling right there.

moxiesauce

Have all NPC's killable, any NPC of importance phased to the player, It wont ruin the game for PvE'ers and people will have consequences for their actions outside of a bounty. The idea of having a bounty alone will make this far different than in WoW. There was no consequence for going into a lowbie zone and ruining players ability to level, MAYBE a repair bill if a guard kills them. ESO will be completely different.

Nox_Aeterna

I do hope they will not allow quest givers or relevant NPCs , like merchants , bankers ... to be killed.

That appears to be good sense , so im not concerned they would do anything other than this.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Evergnar

"It will be anarchy I tell you!"
This is one time where I actually think Zos thought it through. Have to wait and see but I'd be surprised if any quest givers were targetable or killable.

isengrimb16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Do you have to be in Sneak for "attack" (or the yellow aura) to be activated?

Madval

Killable npc and vendors in wow was fabulous. Because with a priest you can mind control them. Now wait for a player to sell his stuffs to a vendor. Mind control the vendor (high level npc insane damage output), and attack the poor player selling is stuff who don't understand: wtf the vendor npc gone crazy or what ?..
ONESHOT BAM DEAD !
ahahaha

babylon

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

Audigy

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

babylon

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

Why would you need to test that with a small handful of people when you know large numbers of people will be making the banker kick us out of the screen every 10 seconds.

Just make those NPCs completely non-attackable, and non-reactive.

moxiesauce

babylon wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

Then 50 pissed off guards wreck their face... still key words here are "current plan".

Bookwyrm

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

So they WILL be in-game trolls.

Well, then. Guess I was wrong! That should be...interesting.

Oh, though I imagine (again, wrong before, could be wrong again) that they won't attack you back, just yell at you for your actions and call the guards. As mentioned, will that kick you out of the bank screen if someone else attacks the banker?

Denaia

Audigy wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.

Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.

Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.

ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.

Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process

I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.

We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.

I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.

I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.

It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?

Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.

DarkAedin

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

can you please add reputations to this so the ppl who want to go around ganking npc's can suffer a realistic fate, whether it be no longer having access to quest lines or having to re-obtain access to a town/quests via bringing ur reputation back up to give the townsppl/guards reason to let u back into town - regardless of fine being paid.

this would add immersion and force players to think properly before going ape on townsfolk. i mean, would u let a mass murder back into your town regardless of him paying a few thousand dollar fine/doing jail time?

the possibilities with this is endless

isengrimb16_ESO

Bookwyrm wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

So they WILL be in-game trolls.

Well, then. Guess I was wrong! That should be...interesting.

Oh, though I imagine (again, wrong before, could be wrong again) that they won't attack you back, just yell at you for your actions and call the guards. As mentioned, will that kick you out of the bank screen if someone else attacks the banker?

And do you have to be in "Sneak" mode to activate justice system features, or is it possible to just bumble into it by accidentally hitting your main mouse buttons or something?

Kaloran

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Do you have to be in Sneak for "attack" (or the yellow aura) to be activated?

I hope not! Brutes are murderers, too!

babylon

Bookwyrm wrote: »

As mentioned, will that kick you out of the bank screen if someone else attacks the banker?

The banker will go into a cowering mode and start calling for the guards, you can bet this will kick you out of the bank screen.