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What WoW Devs Learned The Hard Way About NPC Killing
-
Chillic✭✭✭
Someone else interacting with the banker doesn't kick you out of the bank now, imagine it will be the same as any other interaction.Edited by Chillic on July 21, 2014 8:20PM4 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »Someone else interacting with the banker doesn't kick you out of the bank now, imagine it will be the same as any other interaction.
When a banker moves you get booted out of the bank screen. The cat banker in Khenarthi's Roost is proof of this.2 -
Archaole✭✭✭The difference between this and WoW is that in WoW, you could only do it to your enemy. Or is that something that changed?2
-
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Some clarification on these fuzzy fine details would go a long way towards calming player concerns; if implemented right, things could be fine for both the PvE and the PvP crowd - if not, well, it'd be a shame to see Tamriel cities turn into a bunch of Detroits.
3 -
Chillic✭✭✭mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »Someone else interacting with the banker doesn't kick you out of the bank now, imagine it will be the same as any other interaction.
When a banker moves you get booted out of the bank screen. The cat banker in Khenarthi's Roost is proof of this.
Never happened to me before but I have never used that banker. Gotta choose a better bank, bro
Edited by Chillic on July 21, 2014 8:24PM2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The lack of "We won't let that happen" disturbs me. My fears about this psuedo open-world PVP begin to be confirmed, you clearly don't have a policy to prevent griefing.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 8:25PM10 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
I will salute you and the others working on this for the good intentions , but forgive me if i dont trust the PTS to grab the many bugs that can happen.
If anything , history has more than once proven to us that many bugs seem to only hit when the game goes live.
This happened many times until now.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on July 21, 2014 8:27PM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.
Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.
Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.
ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.
Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process
I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.
We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.
I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.
I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.
It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?
Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.
I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.
If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.
In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.
Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.
The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.
The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.
The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?
Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.
To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.
4 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »Someone else interacting with the banker doesn't kick you out of the bank now, imagine it will be the same as any other interaction.
When a banker moves you get booted out of the bank screen. The cat banker in Khenarthi's Roost is proof of this.
Never happened to me before but I have never used that banker. Gotta choose a better bank, bro
Yeah. The point not being I hang at that banker, but being that when a banker moves you get kicked out of the bank screen.1 -
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭The difference between this and WoW is that in WoW, you could only do it to your enemy. Or is that something that changed?
Sort of. On Timeless Isle now, you can get an item which flags you to PvP _both_ sides.
If old-school wpvp in WoW is dead, it's because it's _not rewarding_; you get nothing for ganking lowbies or guards except a personal thing; bg's and arenas seem much more rewarding, game-wise. Southshore is gone, nothing to fight over, and flying guards seem to have cooled the city raids about as soon as Cata hit.
Also I think those with alts don't miss being blocked by perma-camped towns.
Anyway, that item I mentioned? It made quite the splash, actually; it seemed to be pretty popular on TI (which is the only place it works) on the pvp servers.
Edited by isengrimb16_ESO on July 21, 2014 8:38PM0 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.
Thank you for letting us in @ZOS_JessicaFolsom!
However, I've got a couple of questions, I'd be grateful if you could get them answered.
What exactly does happen when an important NPC is attacked and I am currently interacting with it or would wish to interact with it? Does combat with another player break / disallow my interaction with it?
How are you going to prevent players from flagging other players against their will for pvp/crime? (e.g. by attacking NPCs and then spamming AOE heals in order to tag bystanders, pretending to be a guard and after being healed attacking NPCs)
Are there any plans to limit FX in towns (player toggle?), so fights in already crowded places don't have an all too big hit on perfomance or are cause for disorientation?
Thank you for your time!Edited by Nazon_Katts on July 21, 2014 8:27PM"You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"2 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭mikeandsharrahub17_ESO wrote: »
Someone else interacting with the banker doesn't kick you out of the bank now, imagine it will be the same as any other interaction.
Someone else interacting with a dagger or sorts. If someone is getting attacked naturally they would stop worrying about your banking needs.
I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.1 -
Tremulous✭✭✭Can you use the Intimate skill to steal money from vendor/bankers? I feel like this would be an appropriate use of the skill. There is one vender I've ran across in game where you could do this.1 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alphashado wrote: »The mistake wow made was allowing quest NPCs and vendor NPCs to be killed. Naturally this was a big problem when lowbies had no vendors or NPCs to turn in quests.
There are countless NPCs in ESO that are there for fluff. All they have to do is make sure that relevant NPCs are unkillable.
Bards, for example, I would be a lot happier if I could kill Bards, I don't want to kill any other NPCs, just the Bards.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule4 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »
I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.
Yep because the VR12/champ guy is going to be really really concerned about those 5 brave and fearless level 10 guys hunting him down.5 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »
I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.
Yep because the VR12/champ guy is going to be really really concerned about those 5 brave and fearless level 10 guys hunting him down.
I'm sure other VR12 people are going to hunt him down too.3 -
moxiesauce✭✭✭WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.
Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.
Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.
ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.
Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process
I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.
We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.
I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.
I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.
It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?
Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.
I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.
If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.
In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.
Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.
The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.
The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.
The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?
Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.
To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.
The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »
I don't think this will turn out pretty either, but at least players can hunt down the *** that killed the poor banker.
Yep because the VR12/champ guy is going to be really really concerned about those 5 brave and fearless level 10 guys hunting him down.
I'm sure other VR12 people are going to hunt him down too.
They'll be too busy killing the guards who are "protecting" the banker. Then swatting at the banker again to knock everyone out of the bank screen again.3 -
Evergnar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Hope you guys have a quick revert button because PTS is not going to show you the same things as griefers and exploiters in the live version.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
I'm all for the new justice system (looks great) but hope the devs realize the dangers of implementing it and that PvE getting screwed up for weeks on end will have worse consequences then what we saw when PvP got screwed up. Here's to hoping it goes smoothly but hope there's a backup plan if it doesn't.
Edited by Evergnar on July 21, 2014 8:36PM2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What do you think the PTS is going to teach you?ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
No, seriously, what lame reply is this?
10 years of WOW at the very least tells you all you need to know about a sub-section of the PVP players who given half a chance are total jerks.10 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭AlexDougherty wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »The mistake wow made was allowing quest NPCs and vendor NPCs to be killed. Naturally this was a big problem when lowbies had no vendors or NPCs to turn in quests.
There are countless NPCs in ESO that are there for fluff. All they have to do is make sure that relevant NPCs are unkillable.
Bards, for example, I would be a lot happier if I could kill Bards, I don't want to kill any other NPCs, just the Bards.
I really avoid fighting other players when possible , but you , you i will kill :P."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭moxiesauce wrote: »WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.
Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.
Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.
ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.
Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process
I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.
We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.
I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.
I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.
It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?
Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.
I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.
If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.
In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.
Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.
The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.
The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.
The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?
Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.
To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.
The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.
I don't think so to be honest and even if so, what about the time after you have the perks, why continue with being a criminal?
Does anyone still hunt vampires after he is done with the fighters guild?
We will see how it turns out, but I see some serious issues in regards of the incentive to become a criminal. You also need to consider that you can steal your way up or trade like it happens with vampires already.
I am pretty sure that nobody ever has to attack an NPC and could still max out the skill lines.1 -
Gix✭✭✭✭Or you could play WoW on a PvE server and not have your NPCs killed. WoW's PvP mechanics changed because people were giving penalties (honor/dishonor) to the entire raid by AoE spamming and killling civilian NPCs... everybody was penalized.
In ESO, there are no server shards to choose from but you can still chase after the killer. I'm pretty sure that if the banker gets killed, that the killer will get enough bounty to flag himself for PvP so that everyone in the bank can kick his ass.
Assuming that:
1) that the NPC can die.
2) that the player can actually kill said NPC before angry players kill him first.2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If only NPCs that don't sale items, give quests can be killed it wont be a problem but then again....whats the point-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
IF any merchant or quest giver can be killed, you're creating issues that don't have to exist in the game. Why not focus on things that exist which aren't working well. And finishing the level 50 experience first
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5014 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wonder how tough they are going to make the guards. It won't make much of a difference if you can just easily kill them. The guards in Skyrim were a joke. I noticed the options were "pay bounty" and "flee". How far will the guards chase you? Also, will it be like Skyrim where each city keeps track of it's own crimes or more like Oblivion where you were a criminal everywhere?Edited by eventide03b14a_ESO on July 21, 2014 9:11PM:trollin:1 -
moxiesauce✭✭✭moxiesauce wrote: »WoW developers learned that despite whatever safeguards are put in place, high level players will travel to low level areas and simply wipe out every guard, NPC, and Quest Giver they can find. And they will keep them dead for hours on end.
Bottom line is that the griefers will simply ruin the PvE game for pretty much all the non-sociopathic player base.
Now, ZOS will eventually hear the laments of the player base, and be forced to get rid of the ability to kill NPCs. But a lot of damage will be done to ESO during the time that this behavior is allowed in the game.
ZOS would be wise to LEARN from the mistakes of others and not repeat them.
Yes Blizzard learned the hard way, they lost 7 million of their subs in the process
I don't want to offend you but your carebear mode just doesn't fit to MMOs. If players can not kill important NPC´s then the whole reason for the justice system is revoked.
We need a living world, we need interaction with players and one way to do this is world pvp. If a guild sieges a city, then everyone on the server has to work together to fight them off. If a sneaky Rogue camps a merchant, then players have to work together to find him. This is MMO stuff, this is what made UO, Vanilla WOW or DAOC so good.
I see the justice system failing before its even in the game, because of demands that have only one goal " the destruction" of ESO.
I feel very sorry for the DEVs, they have so many good thoughts but people at this forum just keep trashing them because they wont accept that this is an MMO and not Tetris.
It becomes a problem when the new level 1 players are being harassed by vr 12 players who go on and kill every single npc in the starting zones. As that is what is going to happen and how will those players be able to get new players if they don't know anyone to ask?
Some npc's should be protected from being killed or it will lead to massive abuse.
I played many MMOs with world pvp and this never happened to such an extend that I could not quest further. Yes some Quest NPC´s will be dead, but the good thing about MMOs is that there is not a linear story and they will respawn quickly.
If one quest hub has no NPCs for a few seconds until they respawn then you either go to a different hub or just wait a bit.
In the mean time there will be many guards, protecting the new spawned NPCs. The NPCs could also flee into the church or some temple which is heavily guarded, there are so many possible ways to do this.
Crossroads was under attack every now and then, but yet I never had issues with my chars at WOW. The high levels couldn't attack me and those few quests in the hub I could do later without any issues. Once the guards are up & higher level players there to defend, the attackers are pretty much always outnumbered and leave.
The scenario that some people make out of this where a single Rogue camps the banker is silly and not realistic.
The whole problem is, that by making unimportant NPCs only attackable - that players will lose their interest in the justice system very fast. Yes it might be fun the first time or the second, but sooner or later people will realize that its pointless to kill no name NPCs.
The whole purpose of attacking an NPC is the kill, not the bounty. Why should someone waste his or her reputation in a town, if only he has to feel the consequences but not the other players?
Its a horrible system that way, there must be a punishment for all sides and not just one. A one sided system will not work, as we can see at WOW now. World pvp is dead, 7 million subs lost - it says enough about the changes to the system there.
To disable pvp at the starter islands ok, but everywhere else it should be enabled and everything should be killable - else I don't see why anyone would invest time into becoming a thief or a criminal.
The skills trees from TG and DBH will be incentive for people to be criminals, the killing sprees are just an added thing that people will be capable of.
I don't think so to be honest and even if so, what about the time after you have the perks, why continue with being a criminal?
Does anyone still hunt vampires after he is done with the fighters guild?
We will see how it turns out, but I see some serious issues in regards of the incentive to become a criminal. You also need to consider that you can steal your way up or trade like it happens with vampires already.
I am pretty sure that nobody ever has to attack an NPC and could still max out the skill lines.
Good questions maybe ZoS will think of more reasons to maintain a criminal lifestyle. Dailies could be one, go kill this guy or steal this artifact. here's 600g for your efforts, also a token, when you get enough you can buy a piece of nightengale armor.1 -
indytims_ESO✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.
This does help allay a lot of fears, and I thank you.
PVP belongs in Cyrodil. That being said, adding it to the rest of the world in a limited fashion isn't a terrible idea *as long as* it doesn't interfere with those who have ZERO interest in PVP.
This is -not- a "PVP" game. This game was never designed with "open world" PVP in mind. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that allowing PVP, or PVPers to grief/harass PVErs by messing with quest NPCs, vendors, bankers, would be a *terrible* idea. Hopefully that 'current plan' REMAINS the 'plan' until implementation.
To those who are moaning about not being able to 'kill everything' - too bad. Go play Skyrim, or any other of the series where you can't screw with other people's games. Seriously. Your argument is lame and completely without merit. WHY would you *want* to screw the game up for other players who have no interest in playing "your way"? I have no desire to screw the game up for -you-, why would you want to do it in return? What sort of kick do you get out of the idea?
I frankly don't care about the 'justice system'. I don't care if players are allowed to kill off useless NPCs. That won't interfere with anyone else's game.9