Provisioning Revamp

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Kaloran wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

It sounds like all our learned food recipes are going to disappear along with the ones that are just sitting in inventories or guild stores, and we will have to find them again. It would suck because while there will finally be a reason to make those drinks, we won't have the recipes anymore.

I see a lot of folks expressing this idea, but I don't know where it's actually coming from.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• We're going to try to update the existing recipes that you already know to equivalent recipes in the new system. There may be some exceptions and some trade-offs, but our goal is to have you not lose the effort you spent collecting the recipes in the first place.

Your existing recipes will be updated to the new versions.

Edit: Formatting

missed that part, because I didn't read through the whole thread, its not in the op, and I didn't see it in dev tracker :P

Kaloran

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

missed that part, because I didn't read through the whole thread, its not in the op, and I didn't see it in dev tracker :P

From the OP:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our current plan is to replace existing recipes and Provisioning items with the ones from the new system, matching quality as much as possible.

Not sure how that was interpreted as "You're losing your learned recipes."

Islyn

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Devs. can't win.

Sure they can.

1. Fix broken stuff.
2. Leave NOT broken stuff alone.

Ta da.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Kaloran wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

missed that part, because I didn't read through the whole thread, its not in the op, and I didn't see it in dev tracker :P

From the OP:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our current plan is to replace existing recipes and Provisioning items with the ones from the new system, matching quality as much as possible.

Not sure how that was interpreted as "You're losing your learned recipes."

That doesn't translate to keeping learned recipes perfectly, which is why there was a clarification later on. ...we can stop talking about it now.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Ingredients not being tierd.... One ingredient in the recipe is going to have to be tiered. Even with how Alchemy is with the same ingredients found everywhere, the water is the tiered portion of it, or else we would be able to use the first water we ever found in the game to make level 3 all the way up to vr5 potions without ever having to find anything new.

Like in the example:

Rabbit meat mixed with cheese making level 5
Rabbit meat mixed with flower making level 50.

That would mean Cheese and flower are the tier'd ingredients.

It wouldn't exactly be bad to keep at least these for the tiered compenents.

Now comes the question about the types of non tiered ingredients that will be out there. Say there is Rabbit meat. That cant possibly be the only meat we can use right? Is it going to be possible to Make A rabbit meat meal that is lvl50, a venison meal that is level 50, a mudcrab meat mean that is lvl 50, etc? The only thing different being the name, but the effect being the same.

Dominoid

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Ingredients not being tierd.... One ingredient in the recipe is going to have to be tiered. Even with how Alchemy is with the same ingredients found everywhere, the water is the tiered portion of it, or else we would be able to use the first water we ever found in the game to make level 3 all the way up to vr5 potions without ever having to find anything new.

Like in the example:

Rabbit meat mixed with cheese making level 5
Rabbit meat mixed with flower making level 50.

That would mean Cheese and flower are the tier'd ingredients.

It wouldn't exactly be bad to keep at least these for the tiered compenents.

Now comes the question about the types of non tiered ingredients that will be out there. Say there is Rabbit meat. That cant possibly be the only meat we can use right? Is it going to be possible to Make A rabbit meat meal that is lvl50, a venison meal that is level 50, a mudcrab meat mean that is lvl 50, etc? The only thing different being the name, but the effect being the same.

@demonlkojipub19_ESO, it doesn't make it tiered. Because mutton and flour (not flower) could be level 5 and mutton and cheese could be level 50. So flour and cheese are not tiered! All ingredients will be used throughout the leveled list.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Thats certainly not how it was described in the example, which was copied from the OP. No example was given that would make rabbit mixed with flower lvl 5 or rabbit with cheese lvl50.

The ingredients themselves will not be tiered, but the recipes themselves and the food made from them, will be. The plan is to make each recipe be a specific unique combination of ingredients that is not duplicated in any other recipe. This means that putting venison and cheese together may result in a level 5 recipe, but putting venison and flour together may result in a level 50 recipe, even though all the base materials are available immediately.

This is where I am getting this from. This would make Cheese and flower the same as alchemy water, and they are still tiered by level, while venison is just like the mountain flower.

Actually it would be pretty cool if it did become more like alchemy. It would eliminate the need to find recipes, and we can add the items ourselves with the "level determiner" as the item #1. To start, you can add 2 items (green 1 stat food/drink). A trait can let you add 1 more ingredient at 1 skill point (blue), 2 at 2 skill points (purple) and 3 at 3 skill points (gold food/drink), totalling at 1 level determiner and 5 ingredients. Gold would still be 3 stat, but with less reduction than purple.

Failed creation results in a censored purple something (inv junk).

Stonesthrow

I love the crafting in this game with all its good and bad.

That said, provisioning… my 2 cents.

1. Lose the tomatoes and oats being hireling only… make them the most rare of the "produce" and "sack" tables. And by what you are saying about display, we could then see a tray of tomatoes? That would be interesting… might faint.

2. Make it sortable, or at least fix the order in which the recipes are displayed under each type of food/drink… best would be in reverse order by level by color. Example: Purple VR, Blue VR, Green VR..

3. Let us see the recipes we know and what they need in journal form AWAY from the fire.

4. Keep purple and blue recipes rare, make green recipes less common, and add some form of legendary provisioning uber rare recipes to be the holy grail for VR-10 or 12.

5. Lets us cook more than 1 thing at a time at a fire. Say a slider for 1-1000?

6. Honestly, leveling provisioning to 50 was some what of a joke. A couple of hours, all at once, after gathering WHILE I quested. I would make it take longer, add some quests to open up higher levels (would do that for all crafting)… anything but a few hours at a fire to hit 50.

7. Achievements are sorely lacking in crafting, titles as well. It takes longer than killing some people in PvP, yet there is nothing to mark the occasion.

8. PLEASE give us ample warning before making our hard work gathering rarer matts pointless by eliminating recipes or materials… At least give us enough warning so we can cook up the stuff and sell it.

9. See 7 & 8 again

10. Love the fact that we can do so much crafting in this game and it looks like you are going to help provisioning out. Whatever you do, please do not make crafting any easier than it already is… including enchanting. Sure enchanting takes a long time to get to 50, but that's good. An MMO isn't suppose to be mastered in 3 weeks and some of us like to work for stuff. Tweak it yes, refine it yes, debug it yes… but don't make it easier.

Side Note: I hope that Alchemy, and all the matts that really are never used for potions, get used for poisons in the near future...

Thanks!

Maverick827

Stonesthrow wrote: »

4. Keep purple and blue recipes rare, make green recipes less common, and add some form of legendary provisioning uber rare recipes to be the holy grail for VR-10 or 12.

This would be the absolute worst thing they could do for provisioning.

lordzepo

These changes sound Great! My only issue is that I finally got a V5 Purple Recipe. It would suck to lose it. As well as all the thousands of gold spent stocking up on materials to make it. Maybe by the time this is set into motion, I will have made my money back in sales. However, after reading this; I'm afraid sales will be low anyway.

In the end, I think the changes will be a real benefit to the overall game. If I lose what I've already put into it, then so be it.

Mortosk

How bout some V10 and V12 recipes too? Or some legendary quality recipes

Nightreaver

Food + Drink
Being able to use both concurrently would be highest on my wish list. If there needs to be balancing then I feel it should be done across both, not just one or the other. If anyone feels differently then odds are they only have one purple VR recipe type or the other.

Stale Foods
As others have already stated, I would hate to see all those hard to collect mats we worked so hard to accumulate suddenly become worthless. My personal preference would be an NPC Grocer vendor that would purchase old provisioning mats in return for a Grocer coin or credit that could then be used to purchase new Provisioning items from him. These new items could only be purchased with these Grocer Credit/Coins.

Purple Recipes
I personally feel the best recipes should go to the best Provisioners, not the best Adventurers in some Elite dungeon or the richest players. No idea why Purple recipes need to be more rare than legendary mats for other Crafting Professions. The mats for these purple recipes are already difficult enough to attain to keep them from flooding the market and in some cases the recipes are really no better than Blue versions. Why not have a Chef or a Bartender located in the main starting area of each alliance offer to teach a special (purple) recipe every 5 levels. Make the recipe a Crafting quest reward that is only offered upon meeting the Provisioning level requirement and are BoP so it must be earned.

Fishing
I like the idea of including Fish in Provisioning to make Fishing more desirable. At the same time I can understand the concern that people who have no interest in Fishing might suddenly find Fishing essential to Provisioning. So as an alternative, maybe Fish recipes could provide some non-essential buffs.
Food = Increased Max Attributes
Drink = Increased Attribute Regen
Fish = alternative buffs such as Run speed (PvE only)

DigitalHype

What is it about the provisioning resource nodes (barrels/bags/sacks, etc) vs. the others (e.g. runestones, wood, ore, etc) , that prevented them from making them appropriately leveled in the VR zones?

I still don't think it was a bug, nor a choice. But, something in the game design prevented them from being able to level the provisioning materials to match the VR zone. Maybe it has something to do with them being in a container? Where as all other resources have no visible container.

I find it interesting that this proposed change makes it a moot issue. And, probably plays a part in why they want to make this change.

HeroOfEvbof

DigitalHype wrote: »

What is it about the provisioning resource nodes (barrels/bags/sacks, etc) vs. the others (e.g. runestones, wood, ore, etc) , that prevented them from making them appropriately leveled in the VR zones?

I still don't think it was a bug, nor a choice. But, something in the game design prevented them from being able to level the provisioning materials to match the VR zone. Maybe it has something to do with them being in a container? Where as all other resources have no visible container.

I find it interesting that this proposed change makes it a moot issue. And, probably plays a part in why they want to make this change.

Ahh, you hit a big thing that has been bothering me for awhile as well. What was it about the VR zone containers that led to a problem, that led to it taking quite a while to be addressed, and led to the addressing of the problem in a half-way solution?

I suspect that this game is ultra-complex in its coding, linking of tables and so forth.
Examples: When the "Hero of" achievements got fixed, the UI stopped seeing the progress of the Explorer requirements and everybody was up in arms that they lost all their questing in zone A and zone B and so forth. Surely nobody set out to recode the UI at that time, but the linking of progress requirement tables and UI got broke nonetheless.
Another Example: Some ingredients got their tooltips fixed such that they correctly indicated that they were beverage instead of food. At the same time one blue recipe, Enriched Bervez Vitae suddenly picked up another required ingredient. No other blue Bervez recipe changed, no other Enriched beverage recipe changed. Some how some entry in some table got broke.
Another example : Minions now can be controlled. You can send a minion to attack a particular mob. But now when that mob dies, the minion will stand in the same spot until specifically commanded to either return to you or attack something else. I killed a mob today on one side of Bruma, carefully worked my way to the other side and then called my minion. Waited two minutes for the thing to come running from outside the town back in. It was hilarious. (Fooling around in Bruma is pretty stress free quest grinding). Some function regarding a minion standing down from combat got broke.

My point is I think this code is really, really complex with a web of inter-related tables and function calls. As to the post I quoted, I believe this web of inter-relatedness is not faithfully recorded anywhere and that it took some time for people to figure out how to unlink container tables from whatever geographical function call they were linked to and relink them to something related to the specific character opening the container. This link is complex enough that flour/oil/stock/malt/mash/grapes are still following geographical links and not character links.

Can an overhaul make a system that is less arcane? Sure. Will the overhaul make a system that is less arcane? I am unsure and am quite trepidatious about such an attempt.

jmrathbun

A few comments from the point of view of somebody who has studied human nutrition (leaving out issues about preferred diets of Khajiit and Argonians)...

Cooking: Meat = health, fruit = magicka, vegetables = stamina
Better would be

• meat = stamina
• vegetables = health
• fruit = magicka

Brewing: Alcohol = health, tea = magicka, tonic = stamina
Better would be

• tea = health
• alcohol = magicka
• tonic = stamina

A healthier substitute for alcohol might be preferable, since games like this one can have profound effects on the unconscious preferences of young people and there's enough alcoholism in the world already.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Some people's lack of reading skills as evidenced in some posts in this thread is appalling.

Maidenname

Food & drink stacking is awesome!

Perhaps, can we get higher drop of purple recipes and recipes higher than VR5? At VR12, we hoped to be able to consume better food/drink stats. .... A 12 yrs old would have outgrown a 5 yrs old toddler food

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

I was appalled when I discovered food and drink didn't stack, no other game I play where 'food' and 'drink' are separate categories does this and it's totally unrealistic .. I recall being amused when something in a WOW tutorial pointed out your character is clever enough to be able eat and drink at the same time!

Haewk

jmrathbun wrote: »

A healthier substitute for alcohol might be preferable, since games like this one can have profound effects on the unconscious preferences of young people and there's enough alcoholism in the world already.

Yes, lets not have alcohol. And lets have less blood. And less body parts for the love of god. And almost everyone is walking around with a weapon, lets get rid of those. And no eating other races.

I know, we should all meet at the inn for a cup of tea and talk about how lucky we are to be in peaceful times where we all live in harmony. We can then go out and work the fields and stoke the hearths. No wait, farming tools can be dangerous and fire is a big no-no.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

jmrathbun wrote: »

A healthier substitute for alcohol might be preferable, since games like this one can have profound effects on the unconscious preferences of young people and there's enough alcoholism in the world already.

Well, as Nords all over the place note, there are 'milk drinkers' around so maybe .. milkshakes?

As for 'influencing people', I'm of an age who grew up at a time when you were taught YOU were responsible for your own actions, unlike to day when kids are taught is someone else's responsibility you acted like a moron: I don't accept your proposition.

Pele

Faction-Based Recipes: I like that factions have their own recipes. I enjoy collecting and trading them with other players. It can also be profitable. But I understand that they will most likely be removed to lower the number of available ingredients.

- My Suggestion: Instead of removing faction-based recipes completely, make fewer faction recipes. Said recipes would be related to the races within the factions.

For instance, EP is comprised of Nords, Dunmer, and Argonians. There would be three faction recipes for EP (six recipes if you want food and drink recipes otherwise just three). Each recipe would produce food/drink that complimented racial traits from each race. Ex: A Nord has innate frost resistance, thus a Nordic recipe would boost not only HP regeneration but provide frost resistance or another Nordic trait(s) as well.

This would still lower the amount of in-game ingredients. It would also make faction recipes unique instead of copies of other recipes from other factions that have simply been renamed (current system).

Fish: Utilizing fish in recipes is logical and would give fishing a purpose.

pad11

Islyn wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Devs. can't win.

Sure they can.

1. Fix broken stuff.
2. Leave NOT broken stuff alone.

Ta da.

THIS. Seriously ZOS, you have a game that at times is falling apart at the seams and you are instead nerfing/altering parts of the game that are not broken just to mollify the "eeeeeeewwww it's harrrrd....i want it now" whiners....can you please stop screwing with stuff that isn't broken? good lord what a waste of your talents...

dammit....

CirithValaria

So I have my alt cook who has good amount of all ingredients and my another alt "cook mule" has all the full stacks which are MANY
So do I lose these all and get stale version = eatable?
full stacks of oats and tomatoes bye bye

I love this idea and fully support it.
Just wanted to know if I sell my house,car,dog and wife now that the world ends....umh I mean....

eventide03b14a_ESO

jmrathbun wrote: »

A few comments from the point of view of somebody who has studied human nutrition (leaving out issues about preferred diets of Khajiit and Argonians)...

Cooking: Meat = health, fruit = magicka, vegetables = stamina
Better would be

• meat = stamina
• vegetables = health
• fruit = magicka

Brewing: Alcohol = health, tea = magicka, tonic = stamina
Better would be

• tea = health
• alcohol = magicka
• tonic = stamina

A healthier substitute for alcohol might be preferable, since games like this one can have profound effects on the unconscious preferences of young people and there's enough alcoholism in the world already.

I think the deleterious effects of alcohol are more pronounced on the mind than the body. I would say that caffeine in tea would be better for the mind and alcohol would be better served for the stamina while health would be benefited by the tonic. Our society already celebrates drinking to a very unhealthy degree and I doubt this game will encourage it in any marked way. Besides the game is rated M anyway.

ElfFromSpace

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to clarify a few things based on questions or comments that have been raised so far in this thread:

• When we say "Combination recipes will be rarer, require more ingredients, and give multiple benefits as expected", this means that they are rarer than non-combination recipes, not rarer than they are now.
• The insane rarity of high level purple recipes is absolutely a bug with a fix coming, and is already in the pipeline. For example, it is not our intention that rare recipes are sourced exclusively through Trials.
• We're going to try to update the existing recipes that you already know to equivalent recipes in the new system. There may be some exceptions and some trade-offs, but our goal is to have you not lose the effort you spent collecting the recipes in the first place.
• The ingredients themselves will not be tiered, but the recipes themselves and the food made from them, will be. The plan is to make each recipe be a specific unique combination of ingredients that is not duplicated in any other recipe. This means that putting venison and cheese together may result in a level 5 recipe, but putting venison and flour together may result in a level 50 recipe, even though all the base materials are available immediately.

This sounds more complicated than it is currently. Being able to target your ingredient farming at stuff used for a certain level is kind of nice. Maybe it would make more sense once I saw it.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• We do intend to have a rare component for purple recipes akin to Oats, though we may add additional ways to obtain it.

I'd be interested in seeing fishing incorporated, like others. It would be quite appropriate for the rare ingredient to be available from hirelings, fishing and once in a while from containers.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Once the Justice System is released, we will make sure that Provisioning is adjusted to ensure you don't need to be thieves in order to participate meaningfully in the tradeskill.

Justice system? But... where will we ever be able to loot motifs like we do in the bank of wayrest????? Being able to loot containers within town makes it worthwhile and interesting to explore and look around in the towns.

chiefzfanzub17_ESO

Love the idea of food and drink stacking and less items for sure. Also like that what you see is what you get. I would like to be able to pick up the items that I need and not fill my bag with a ton of stuff I can't or don't use or want. Sounds like a great improvement in the process.

Epona222

I don't like it (I think provisioning is fine as it is, and thus my opinions have not been registered so far as I haven't been whining about it).

I LIKE the variety of ingredients. Please don't reduce the variety of things we can loot. People who open a container and see something they do not want/need are more than welcome to hit ALT to close the container without taking the contents. I LIKE that ingredients/recipes are (at least for a good portion of leveling) linked to faction, region, and lore. I like the recipes, and have put a lot of effort in to collect them all.

The only thing I would like to see changed is that food and drink buffs can be active at the same time, that would make brewing useful. Please don't reduce the variety of ingredients and recipes.

If people are complaining that it is too much to store, just give us a separate storage bag for crafting mats, and/or make them stack to 1000. PLEASE do not reduce the variety of provisioning mats.

Sadae

I like the new proposal. Anything that greatly reduces the insane number of different ingredients is good. And anything that lets you loot ingredients you can actually USE in the vet zones is even better!

Fleymark

Food and drink stacking has been at the top of my wish list for ages.

Reducing the number of ingredients is great.

But, as a completionist who just started a 2nd provisioner that is farming every single blue recipe as I levelled him up, PLEASE make the transition from old to new recipes painless. I just spent 3 weeks on the 10 and 15 blues. Got the last one this evening, finally. It took so long it took me a bit to relearn how to play that character. Also got all the 50s and v5s with the main (multiple times over in the same amount of time, btw) as well as a purple v5 drink. Please don't ruin what we've collected so far with this.

Other than that concern, sounds good. Balancing classes and builds first would be preferable, though.

Islyn

ElfFromSpace wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing fishing incorporated, like others. It would be quite appropriate for the rare ingredient to be available from hirelings, fishing and once in a while from containers.

Some of us DO NOT WANT to PRETEND stand around and FISH.

Please get over it.