Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

Tandor

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Your memory is wrong on EQ. Those servers lasted for some time, until after WoW crashed EQ mostly into the ground and ALL the servers were getting merged left and right. There was Rallos Zek, basic pvp server, Vallon and Tallon Zek, team pvp servers, and Sullon Zek no rules server.

EQ's PvP server populations never exceeded around 10% of the total population. Yes, there were several PvP servers at one time, but there were very many more PvE servers. Currently I believe there's just one PvP server with sixteen PvE ones.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Your memory is wrong on EQ. Those servers lasted for some time, until after WoW crashed EQ mostly into the ground and ALL the servers were getting merged left and right. There was Rallos Zek, basic pvp server, Vallon and Tallon Zek, team pvp servers, and Sullon Zek no rules server.

EQ's PvP server populations never exceeded around 10% of the total population. Yes, there were several PvP servers at one time, but there were very many more PvE servers. Currently I believe there's just one PvP server with sixteen PvE ones.

last I played there were not sixteen regular servers. Plus two of the existing servers are retro servers.

There was never a consensus done on the number of pvp versus regular players and many people who pvp'd also had pve characters, which was generally not the case for pve'rs.

Keep in mind, EQ never balanced anything for pvp, even now you can actually run into the water if your opponent is on land and spells won't hit you (though that's done enough that it only works on the inexperienced.) So they didn't really encourage it or develop the community.

I'm not saying there's not more pve'rs, but if class balance had been done for the pvp servers and key issues fixed that never were it might be more pvp friendly.

Really, EQ was always bad about that kind of thing and they are running on a skeleton crew now with all the good devs yanked over to EQNext. The last expansion I played was just awful. The story was terrible, (and yes I pay attention to that kind of stuff,) the zones were terrible (seriously, an entire zone for bixies? ffs) it was basically a hodgepodge of zones they had always intended to release before all very very loosely connected with a weak plot that bridged over into EQ2.

Haewk

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

nerevarine1138

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

Griefing is an intentional act on the part of the griefer. As pointed out, no one knows that you're only in Cyrodiil to get skyshards. You could be running to get to an assault group, scouting, or any number of other PvP activities. Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

Haewk

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

Actually, plenty of PvP players will leave you alone. I've even /surrendered to a group that caught me, and they laughed and carried on. Instead of making pre-judgments about people, why not actually try?

I did the entire Cyrodiil Hero achievement without ever getting attacked by another player, let alone farmed (which is impossible anyway, since you don't have to return to your body to resurrect).

Yes, because you apparently didn't get attacked by another player while doing your Cyrodiil Hero achievement this clearly has to be the norm for everyone.

You don't have to go back to your body but you have to go back to the Skyshard.

MercyKilling

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

theyancey

MercyKilling wrote: »

We can end the thread now. Firefall just released, it's F2P, and it's open world PvP right from the getgo. Now all you people that want open world PvP can have something that offers it and leave us to our game.

Hopefully they will keep their subs here for the times they want quality adventure but get their base blood lust slaked over there.

nerevarine1138

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

Well, in the current poll, 70% of forum-goers favor the PvP integration promised by the upcoming justice system. So it's not just a case of "could be wrong." And it's worth noting that the justice system will not be open-world PvP.

Elencha

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, in the current poll, 70% of forum-goers favor the PvP integration promised by the upcoming justice system. So it's not just a case of "could be wrong." And it's worth noting that the justice system will not be open-world PvP.

Wait, am I misinformed? I thought I heard Paul Sage say this system will included PvP in the open world?

Nox_Aeterna

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

Well, in the current poll, 70% of forum-goers favor the PvP integration promised by the upcoming justice system. So it's not just a case of "could be wrong." And it's worth noting that the justice system will not be open-world PvP.

Actually very relative on how you see it , on the thread asking if people keep playing if zen did add open world PvP , the majority said they would rather quit than keep playing a game with it, me included.

Since we did not see the justice system working yet , it is early to assume how it is will be working 100%, but if it is possible to players to take part in the system and avoid PvP 100% without a huge hassle , it will be fine.

If not , im certain more than enough will complain about it heh, good chances it will change anyway.

Even now , many are in favor to how it is meant to work because they do believe they wont be dragged into PvP, just need to check the posts.

nerevarine1138

Elencha wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Well, in the current poll, 70% of forum-goers favor the PvP integration promised by the upcoming justice system. So it's not just a case of "could be wrong." And it's worth noting that the justice system will not be open-world PvP.

Wait, am I misinformed? I thought I heard Paul Sage say this system will included PvP in the open world?

To reply to you and Nox:

This is not open-world PvP. Open-world PvP means that it's open season on anyone from an opposing side who chooses to flag themselves. Meaning that you can be attacked anytime, anywhere, by anyone.

The justice system (as it currently stands) means that if someone is detected in the commission of a crime (note: you have to be detected), then they will get flagged with a bounty. At that point, they will be approached by any NPC guard who sees them and asked to pay the fine. If, and only if, the player decides to not pay the fine will they then become flagged for attack by the guards. That includes any players who have decided to tag themselves as guards in the system. It's not open-world PvP, even though it includes PvP features within an open-world system. Which is why the poll for open-world PvP shows that most people are against it, while the poll for the justice system shows that most people are for it. They're two totally different things.

Morgha_Kul

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

I don't think anyone is advocating open-world pvp. I think the purpose here is to ALLOW pvp in areas that are otherwise just pve zones.

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

JKorr

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

JKorr

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

I don't think anyone is advocating open-world pvp. I think the purpose here is to ALLOW pvp in areas that are otherwise just pve zones.

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

Oh there are posters advocating open world pvp, including open world ffa pvp, with or without loss of gear/experience/gold/level/whatever. There have been multiple threads on it.

Nox_Aeterna

JKorr wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

I don't think anyone is advocating open-world pvp. I think the purpose here is to ALLOW pvp in areas that are otherwise just pve zones.

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

Oh there are posters advocating open world pvp, including open world ffa pvp, with or without loss of gear/experience/gold/level/whatever. There have been multiple threads on it.

Bah , this is not an issue , it will never happen as long as we only have one server.

Chances are the justice system alone , if it is not trully well done and the PvP part not totally optional , will already create a lot of complains.

MercyKilling

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

It has been done before...true. No disputing that fact. However....it's been done on servers where players are given a choice to create characters on or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't have such a choice here. It's going to be in my face whether I want to see it or not, much less participate.

I'm speccing OUT of provisioning on several characters just because I can't collect in towns anymore once this goes live...and this is a choice I'm not making willingly. It is being forced upon me due to the implementation of a type of PvP in the open world.

Let's get this straight. I don't want to PvP. So I'm being forced to stop collecting materials in towns or participate in a system/mechanic I want nothing to do with.
I'm really not too happy with that. Nothing can be said by anyone on these forums to change my mind..and the only thing that could restore goodwill would be a reversal by the developers of this. However, I know this isn't going to happen, so it's another black mark in the "cons" column.

TehMagnus

MercyKilling wrote: »

We can end the thread now. Firefall just released, it's F2P, and it's open world PvP right from the getgo. Now all you people that want open world PvP can have something that offers it and leave us to our game.

Following this logic "PVE Only people" could leave for a game where there is no PVP and leave this game to people who want PVP & PVE as well as a mix of both. It's even easier that way.

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

, so letting the PvPers have their fun is FINE, even GOOD, so long as it doesn't come at the cost of other kinds of players.

The problem is....when you give PvP'rs the things they call fun...it IS at the cost of other players' fun. Hence the massive naysay to open world PvP in this game.

You're just making stuff up now. The two recent pools about the justice system show 45%+ people saying they wanted "only PVP forced upon" justice system and more than 65% saying that they like the justice system the way it is (aka with PVP involved when fighting guards).
+
Links:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122965/an-actual-poll-about-the-justice-system/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122788/pve-pvp-options-for-justice-system-criminal-guilds/p1

Where is this massive naysay you speak of? As you said yousrself before, there are other PVE only games out there...

Audigy

Tandor wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Your memory is wrong on EQ. Those servers lasted for some time, until after WoW crashed EQ mostly into the ground and ALL the servers were getting merged left and right. There was Rallos Zek, basic pvp server, Vallon and Tallon Zek, team pvp servers, and Sullon Zek no rules server.

EQ's PvP server populations never exceeded around 10% of the total population. Yes, there were several PvP servers at one time, but there were very many more PvE servers. Currently I believe there's just one PvP server with sixteen PvE ones.

The point I was trying to make was not that there was 100% pvp at EQ... My point is that in the past before WOTLK hit, MMOs were open for everyone.

We had Ultima where you pretty much had an open pvp system, you could attack every NPC, every player even your friends. You could steal from them or you could do a dungeon together - it was all possible.

Players back then were just more tolerant in regards of what others liked to do. Sure it wasn't all perfect and lets face it if you wanted to be an ass then you could be one at UO, fact however is - every type of player had his content in an MMO, no matter at which game that was.

EQ was mainly about raiding, we all remember those huge raids that later had a comeback at Vanilla. Yet there was also pvp, even though it wasn't shiny with huge rewards, a housing system for roleplayers ...

Even WOW Vanilla had loads of different things once for players, world pvp, dungeons, raids, crafting and quest content or elite pve.


Today however people play MMOs and think that the MMO must be how they want to play. They totally forget the most important aspect in MMO´s - the other players. This isn't a "my game" situation, its an "our game" situation and this people need to understand.

We do have Trials for hardcore raiders, a crafting system for traders, solo quest zones and those for groups and also pvp. Why cant people just accept this?

Why do those not interested in pvp come here and complain all the time? Why cant they just accept that there are people who don't want to raid, but pvp especially since that pvp was announced since a year or two?

There is a constant hate and greed, everything that someone wont use is bad - no matter how silly their argumentation is. Players should be more open minded and tolerant towards others.
Isnt it bad enough what we see in the world right now? Why must it be the exact same in a game which is supposed to be fun?

I just don't understand people...

TehMagnus

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

It has been done before...true. No disputing that fact. However....it's been done on servers where players are given a choice to create characters on or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't have such a choice here. It's going to be in my face whether I want to see it or not, much less participate.

I'm speccing OUT of provisioning on several characters just because I can't collect in towns anymore once this goes live...and this is a choice I'm not making willingly. It is being forced upon me due to the implementation of a type of PvP in the open world.

Let's get this straight. I don't want to PvP. So I'm being forced to stop collecting materials in towns or participate in a system/mechanic I want nothing to do with.
I'm really not too happy with that. Nothing can be said by anyone on these forums to change my mind..and the only thing that could restore goodwill would be a reversal by the developers of this. However, I know this isn't going to happen, so it's another black mark in the "cons" column.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You're the one making the choice to farm all the mats to level up provisioning in a town in order to do it faster instead of collecting mats in the world litle by litle.

The system will be on par with all the other TES games where you could get into trouble by stealing stuff from NPC owned containers & shops and that's why they are implementing it. The game is not intended to let you farm mats in order to reach your provisioning lvl 50 in 4h.

So nobody is forcing you, you're forcing this on yourself just like people forced upon themselves to farm anomalies for hours because they where going to be changed XP & loot wise and they wanted to get to VR 12 before that even though they're not supposed to do it that way.

If your reason is "I wont be able to farm motives & mats anymore": Good, that's partly why ZOS is implementing this system.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

Aenra wrote: »

title says it all

"Killing other players in PVE"

"PVE"

may i start a new poll?
what's scarier? That your money is as good as mine when it comes to Zeni's incomes, or that people actually respond in earnest to your topic?

It's scary that you get scarred by a title

I agree, physical injury by some text is indeed worrying.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

I don't think anyone is advocating open-world pvp. I think the purpose here is to ALLOW pvp in areas that are otherwise just pve zones.

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

Griefing doesn't per se mean *I* have to be the target, if the griefer is slaughtering NPCs I need to quest then that's equally 'grieifng': WOW's PVE servers for example prevent you being attacked if you're not flagged, didn't prevent PVP jerks destroying entire quest hubs to prevent PVE play.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

Following this logic "PVE Only people" could leave for a game where there is no PVP and leave this game to people who want PVP & PVE as well as a mix of both. It's even easier that way.

Why should the majority leave?

Yes, I have no facts to back up my assertion that PVPers and especially those who are rabid open-world PVP fans are a minority .. other than to note that in games offering PVP and PVE servers (not just WOW! ), the number of servers and/or populations on PVE servers are always larger and I see absolutely no reason to think ESO is any different, and given the types of player this game attracted I suspect the PVP group is even a smaller percentage here than elsewhere.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Following this logic "PVE Only people" could leave for a game where there is no PVP and leave this game to people who want PVP & PVE as well as a mix of both. It's even easier that way.

Why should the majority leave?

Yes, I have no facts to back up my assertion

You could have stopped there since it's the only thing that matters.

nerevarine1138

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Following this logic "PVE Only people" could leave for a game where there is no PVP and leave this game to people who want PVP & PVE as well as a mix of both. It's even easier that way.

Why should the majority leave?

Yes, I have no facts to back up my assertion that PVPers and especially those who are rabid open-world PVP fans are a minority .. other than to note that in games offering PVP and PVE servers (not just WOW! ), the number of servers and/or populations on PVE servers are always larger and I see absolutely no reason to think ESO is any different, and given the types of player this game attracted I suspect the PVP group is even a smaller percentage here than elsewhere.

Well, since the justice system isn't open-world PvP, and since 70% of forum-goers support the basic mechanics of integrating PvP in that system, I'd say that your numbers are off...

Delith

PVE only people in MMOs confuse me. If you wanted PVE only, why are you even playing online?

The true strength of an online game is player interaction, and if you pigeonhole that interaction to allow only trivial and shallow behavior amongst people, you are hindering your game from actually leveraging the potential strength of the genre.

If I wanted to PVE, I'd play Skyrim with a ton of mods. I want to play TES, online, with other people, not World of Tamrielcraft.

The funny thing is, most of you people who are so vehemently against it, would probably have a good time if the system was designed correctly to give every type of player a role and a safe haven. Kill too many innocent people? Outcast from society, listed as kill on sight in civilization; you're effectively ostracized from areas with guards in them. Kill a ton of outlaws and bandits? Congratulations, you're being hailed as a protector of the innocent, and people will look up to you and appreciate you.

If the game lost vertical gear progression and made the economy almost entirely reliant on crafting and interacting amongst players, losing gear on death would be less painful. It's this mentality that your items should be gained through long and arduous grinding that makes people afraid of loss.

Loss should be a temporary frustration, followed by a quick tell to your favorite crafter to explain to him that you have materials you've gathered and need him to turn into items, so that you can get back to whoever ruined your adventure and make them pay.

You guys overestimate how many griefers there are versus how many people want to grief the griefers.

It's human nature, and denying it in online worlds is why you have nothing but trolls and exploiters now. Give people an outlet. That's what video games are for.

JKorr

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

nerevarine1138

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...