Best Of
Re: How to Kill a community
JustLovely wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Hey everyone,
I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.
1. Population Drain
Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.
2. Split Community
Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.
3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights
Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.
4. Loss of Identity
Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.
I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.
Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.
You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.
All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).
Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.
The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance
I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?
You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.
The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.
And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.
I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.
Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,
I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.
I'm not lying. I'm in Cyrodiil every day. I used to see you there every day as well until about 5 years ago. Of course, me not seeing you doesn't mean you weren't there. It just means what I said, that I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil for about 5 years except for the one time we spoke via in game chat during vengeance 2.
At what point did I say anything about you personally? I stated what I've seen in the last 5 years and how it differed from what I saw in the years prior to 2020.
Yes you are.
So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away?
That is not true. I do not want to see Live PvP taken away.
You said things about me personally when instead of commenting on my argument, you instead bought up (wrong) information about me and publicly broadcast a desire I supposedly have that is not true.
I honestly don;t know who you are, so I can't even comment about chatting during Vengeance. I do know that during that chat, I did not talk about that Live PvP being taken away because that thought, despite my frustrations, isn't something I believe.. I do what most normal people do when they feel they're aren't getting their money's worth, I play less. I am not a spiteful person who hopes other people's fun is ruined.
Playing less does not mean not playing regularly. I was in two guilds who ran weekly up until last calendar year (both broke up because of frustration with the game, not my decision). You might not have seen my old main "Joy Division" because it is EP and faction locks have prevented me from using that character since 2019 (my guilds were AD and DC). But outside of the New World experiment and the past 5 months ago when ESO literally boots me from the server every ten minutes, I've been in Cyrodiil. You can ask any of the EP and AD guilds, they certainly have seen me quite a bit since 2020 and never fail to introduce themselves and say "Hi" to me with their Rush of Agony spam. If you have been there every day since 2020, then you obviously don't know my alts. Which is fine. I don;t do anything that would make anyone pay attention to who I am: I don;t stream, I don;t t-bag anyone, I dont send hate tells, I'm not an amazing player that people would remember. I'm just there. And sometimes I log off soon after logging in because my experience with Cyrodiil isn't anything like the OP describes. But I have been there. Quite a bit. Being in multiple guilds is regular participation. You specifically said, "You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago" using CAPS to emphasize that point. That isn't remotely the same as "I haven;t seen you."
Like I get it. You really don;t like Vengeance. You and a lot of other folks are concerned, fairly I'd say, that ZOS's silence about the future of Vengeance leaves the part of the game that you like up in the air. But just because I supported Vengeance and told ZOS that I enjoyed my time during the first test (noticeably less so the second), does not make me a villain who would actively hope ZOS takes away Grey Host. That is an incorrect assumption. Please take out your frustrations elsewhere. Please stop putting untrue words in my mouth.
Re: Hybridization
Just like with most of the game's classes that were conjured out of thin air and have no basis in any pre-ESO lore, I always viewed the Mag/Stam divide as very contrived and gamey for the sake of being gamey. They weren't good or valuable in or of themselves, they were simply familiar and comfortable for folk who were used to them. That has value but it isn't necessarily rooted in actual game design.
Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.
In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.
Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.
The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.
Like, when I first came to the game I literally rolled on the floor laughing at the cognitive dissonance of "StamSorc" - and, thus, had to choose it as my main class immediately. But the whole idea of a Stamina "Sorcerer" felt SO dumb and artificial. Even more so because you couldn't even use 95% of your "class" kit and so StamSorc got the unironic reputation of the "class without a class" or "weapon ability class" whose fortunes rose not with buffs to the actual class but rather to generic weapon ability lines. Which was, again, completely dumb.
In other words, not much of actual value was lost in hybridization - or at least nothing that simply having better game balance couldn't solve.
Seriously, whether it's PvP or PvE or overland questing or whatever - we, as players, deserve better and more responsive balance than what we have received for the last MANY years. If you look at patch notes for similar games compared to ours the difference is VAST. We get solutions to problems over the course of years where other games receive them over weeks. Like, there is no law of nature that demands that Light Armor be bad. It is only bad because it was balanced improperly and then hasn't been changed for literally years. That isn't hybridization being flawed it is simply neglect.
The systems themselves are not to blame but rather the positively glacial (and skimpy!) cadence of patches and balance updates gives us the worst of all possible worlds for insanely long stretches of time.
Hears the wind: *** its one of these days again
Some argonians are not enjoying the pick locks endeavors
zaria
2
Re: Collectibles, Motif, Recipe, Style Page, Antiquities and more Completionist Checklist
I'm surprised you don't have more thank you's on this! Especially helpful this week for making big purchases for gold like with houses.
anjasa
1
Re: Collectibles, Motif, Recipe, Style Page, Antiquities and more Completionist Checklist
Wow. That's a TON of work! I'm not a completionist but I'll probably download it to keep track of motifs and style pages. Thanks!
TaSheen
1
Re: Collectibles, Motif, Recipe, Style Page, Antiquities and more Completionist Checklist
Wow. That's a TON of work! I'm not a completionist but I'll probably download it to keep track of motifs and style pages. Thanks!
it makes sense and would be more useful for console players to use this
PC has addons that keep track of all of this in game (which is why i never really bothered doing much manual tracking except the grandmaster craft tables, since there was no addon for that lol)
Re: Collectibles, Motif, Recipe, Style Page, Antiquities and more Completionist Checklist
Necrotech_Master wrote: »Wow. That's a TON of work! I'm not a completionist but I'll probably download it to keep track of motifs and style pages. Thanks!
it makes sense and would be more useful for console players to use this
PC has addons that keep track of all of this in game (which is why i never really bothered doing much manual tracking except the grandmaster craft tables, since there was no addon for that lol)
I like having a spreadsheet more than addons to track - the only one I use is the one so I know who has learned which recipe, style, motif, and if there is a tracker it's probably not for all my characters across 4 accounts. Which is why for some things I prefer spreadsheets....
TaSheen
1
Re: Collectibles, Motif, Recipe, Style Page, Antiquities and more Completionist Checklist
I was looking for a spreadsheet for my true style master progress and oh my goodness this is everything i wanted and more!! Sharing this with everyone I know, thanks for keeping it updated!
Re: Poll: Should the 3 banners war in cyro end after the next chapter?
Y'all need to leave us alone. I'm in Cyro every single day and every single day the population is not insignificant. We do have large battles, thanks.
Re: Vengeance has officially ended the THREE BANNERS WAR
StihlReign wrote: »I have mixed feelings about the video...
First off, vengeance is NOT "The WORST PvP Future of ESO". It is the vanilla version aka GH.
Not even remotely close. Vengeance is an entirely different system no one asked for, being designed and developed by the devs.
PTS Patch Notes v11.2.0
Vengeance
Loadouts are now in Vengeance. A Loadout is essentially a package...
Perks are now in Vengeance. Perks are passives to add...
A new Vengeance Inventory has been created...
Many systems have been turned back on including....
Your standard inventory is now available in Vengeance, however the same item restrictions...
The pvp community for the longest time have been begging the developers to provide new pvp content, and Vengeance is exactly that.. new content. It is an entirely different Cyrodiil map that its worth exploring. It has different set of rules in comparison to the regular GH campaign.
I actually enjoy Vengeance because I don't have to worry about getting bombed and getting zerged down by ball groups.
So you like veng because the devs refused to address pvp balance for 7+ years.. let it get way out of hand.. and then bascially took all skill away from cyro and made it a one size fits all everyone gets a prize style combat loop?
You realize this will continue to have a lower and lower pop to where you're lucky if you get one fight a night... right?
Vengeance actually fixes the PVP balance by removing sets and stack healing. There are no bombers and no ball groups during the Vengeance event. It's actually a refreshing not having to deal with either. Ball groups play a big role in lagging up the server by overloading the server. Ball groups know about this and still exploit the game just so that they can look good on their YouTube channel when they farm pugs and casual groups.
Also, not everyone has the time to test out sets and to theory craft a good PvP build.. so people are coming into Cryodill with sets that are completely garbage that they don't know... How can you have fun with that? So disabling sets gives other people the opportunity to have fun and to have a good PvP experience.
Then again lets have the same in pve. I want to participate trials too, but wont be taken by any serious trial guild unless i hit a 140k dps with certain sets.
Fix that
Nothing is stopping you from participating in trials. Get yourself an Arcanist and go to ESOlogs.com and find out what the current meta for gear/skills,etc. And yeah... if you wanna participate in speed runs or no death runs... yeah, these kinds of groups are gonna be looking for the best. Nothing is stopping you from using group finder to find a regular vet trial. I used to do it all the time, and that's how I got most of my trial skins from using the group finder.
Nothing is preventing you or anyone else from being successful in PvP either. Everyone already has the same resources to work with when it comes to both PvE and PvP. So we don't need vengeance because it's a solution in search of a problem, right?