Best Of
Re: How to Kill a community
Seems to me like people forgot what Vengeance actually is - A TESTING ENVIRONMENT.
ZOS has no clue on what is causing the performance issues. So, they turned everything off and left the bare minimum to see the impact. All was good! Then they added more and once again kept an eye on the performance. I expect they are logging some stuff or profiling to see the raw numbers - this kind of thing has additional overhead on the performance and cannot be left live all the time. This is why each Vengeance adds things to see what is having most impact on the performance.
Once they detect the major culprits, they can address the issues - optimize, rework, remove, etc.
Of course it's boring. Of course it's a far cry from what live Cyrodiil is. They just need the data from a controlled environment. It's not something that will become the norm.
I agree locking down other Campaigns is a bad move, but ESO has low player numbers and even lower in the PvP. No players = no data. It has to be done.
ZOS has no clue on what is causing the performance issues. So, they turned everything off and left the bare minimum to see the impact. All was good! Then they added more and once again kept an eye on the performance. I expect they are logging some stuff or profiling to see the raw numbers - this kind of thing has additional overhead on the performance and cannot be left live all the time. This is why each Vengeance adds things to see what is having most impact on the performance.
Once they detect the major culprits, they can address the issues - optimize, rework, remove, etc.
Of course it's boring. Of course it's a far cry from what live Cyrodiil is. They just need the data from a controlled environment. It's not something that will become the norm.
I agree locking down other Campaigns is a bad move, but ESO has low player numbers and even lower in the PvP. No players = no data. It has to be done.
Aliniel
2
Re: How to Kill a community
JustLovely wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Hey everyone,
I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.
1. Population Drain
Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.
2. Split Community
Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.
3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights
Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.
4. Loss of Identity
Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.
I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.
Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.
You are describing Cyrodiil circa 2016.
All of the problems you are attributing to Vengeance have been the consequence of ZOS's increasingly reliance of broken proc sets, heavy favoritism of defense/healing mechanics, hybridization that allowed players to have builds with no weaknesses, and a terrible decision to combine the roles of lead PvP and lead combat under the same team (which led to the neglect of both).
Cyrodiil has been a ghost town for years now. Even ball groups and guilds cannibalize each other because the population is so low. The guilds have left because the balance is terrible and people just got bored literally doing the same thing over and over and over for years: "3-2-1 Deep Fissure, wait for my Rush of Agony proc." Keeps have not consistently flipped ever since ZOS lowered the population caps, making it impossible for the sort of action you are describing.
The sentiment is not wrong; Cyrodiil was once an interesting and more lively place. But those who once enjoyed it left long before Vengeance was ever even an idea. It's not because of Vengeance
I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil in 5 years except the one time we talked during vengeance 2 test. You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago. So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away? Why aren't you pushing ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil you just claimed to love?
You can disagree with my posts, but please do not lie about me.
The only times I have stopped PvPing regularly was for about 9 months or so when New World launched and the past 4 or 5 months because ESO constantly disconnects me from its server and I'm tired of all the failed attempts to try and fix the issue. As for Vengeance 2, well, I was on a lot more during Vengeance I. You do not know when I play or why. Please stop claiming you do.
And you can also stop lying that I want to see the game people enjoy taken away. I have never said anything on these forums, on Discord, or to anyone else implying that I want to see GH taken away. Just because I supported Vengeance, does not automatically make me someone who wants to see Live PvP taken away. That is purely a product of your fears that ZOS will do that. It isn't based on anything I said.
I have pushed for ZOS to bring back the Cyrodiil I loved. For the past ten years I have spent hours upon hours upon hours to writing (long) specific,, coherent, and evidence-based posts in an effort to guide ZOS to make Cyrodiil more fun (for everyone). Since the beginning, I was there telling them about AOE caps, about how organized groups were too strong (even though I played in one), about how the map needed to be used more, about how the rewards needed improvement, about how class balance/nerfs/proc sets were ruining the experience, about how unfriendly Cyrodiil had become to newcomers.
Here's one from 2024 Look at the time and thought I put into that. That you would even insinuate that I want to see Live PvP taken away loudly says you know nothing about me, what I want, or my posting history,
I am critical of ZOS because they deserve to be criticized. What the OP describes was 100% not what GH was before the Vengeance testing. I know because I was regularly PvPing right when Vengeance started. Yep, hop onto a DC character to sit through that prime time que of 4 on a Friday night to see a dead map, when the only action was a cannibalized EP "guild," really just the best dozen players left from multiple older guilds, running amok on the third floor of Warden or Glade because ZOS has no idea how to balance things. This doesn't mean I want them to take away GH. It means I don;t want to be a paying customer and meekly accept them taking my money while they literally do nothing for 5 years to improve Cyrodiil.
I'm not lying. I'm in Cyrodiil every day. I used to see you there every day as well until about 5 years ago. Of course, me not seeing you doesn't mean you weren't there. It just means what I said, that I haven't seen you in Cyrodiil for about 5 years except for the one time we spoke via in game chat during vengeance 2.
At what point did I say anything about you personally? I stated what I've seen in the last 5 years and how it differed from what I saw in the years prior to 2020.
Yes you are.
So why all of a sudden you want to see the game the rest of us enjoy taken away?
That is not true. I do not want to see Live PvP taken away.
You said things about me personally when instead of commenting on my argument, you instead bought up (wrong) information about me and publicly broadcast a desire I supposedly have that is not true.
I honestly don;t know who you are, so I can't even comment about chatting during Vengeance. I do know that during that chat, I did not talk about that Live PvP being taken away because that thought, despite my frustrations, isn't something I believe.. I do what most normal people do when they feel they're aren't getting their money's worth, I play less. I am not a spiteful person who hopes other people's fun is ruined.
Playing less does not mean not playing regularly. I was in two guilds who ran weekly up until last calendar year (both broke up because of frustration with the game, not my decision). You might not have seen my old main "Joy Division" because it is EP and faction locks have prevented me from using that character since 2019 (my guilds were AD and DC). But outside of the New World experiment and the past 5 months ago when ESO literally boots me from the server every ten minutes, I've been in Cyrodiil. You can ask any of the EP and AD guilds, they certainly have seen me quite a bit since 2020 and never fail to introduce themselves and say "Hi" to me with their Rush of Agony spam. If you have been there every day since 2020, then you obviously don't know my alts. Which is fine. I don;t do anything that would make anyone pay attention to who I am: I don;t stream, I don;t t-bag anyone, I dont send hate tells, I'm not an amazing player that people would remember. I'm just there. And sometimes I log off soon after logging in because my experience with Cyrodiil isn't anything like the OP describes. But I have been there. Quite a bit. Being in multiple guilds is regular participation. You specifically said, "You stopped PvP'ing regularly a LONG time ago" using CAPS to emphasize that point. That isn't remotely the same as "I haven;t seen you."
Like I get it. You really don;t like Vengeance. You and a lot of other folks are concerned, fairly I'd say, that ZOS's silence about the future of Vengeance leaves the part of the game that you like up in the air. But just because I supported Vengeance and told ZOS that I enjoyed my time during the first test (noticeably less so the second), does not make me a villain who would actively hope ZOS takes away Grey Host. That is an incorrect assumption. Please take out your frustrations elsewhere. Please stop putting untrue words in my mouth.
Re: How to Kill a community
Sorry but what?During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. ... You could ... jump into massive zergs.
Describing anything in PvP during the last years as "massive" * is weirdly out of touch. It's wishful thinking at best and has nothing to do with reality.
But they are trying to fix the underlying issues. The fix is called "Vengeance".Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil
Over the years, they've tried quite a lot of things, and most of them involved scaling down the game substantially to make Cyrodiil halfway playable. Slashing population caps, halving group sizes, removing almost all set effects... And none of those have made a noticeable difference. Assuming Cyrodiil is "fixable" by conventional means is just closing your eyes and pretending the world isn't there.
Instead, this time, they're rebuilding abilities and many parts of combat from the ground up (as much as possible without making a new game), specifically for Cyrodiil. Which had much better results than anything they've tried so far, but admittedly also sacrificed a lot. Where the final line will be drawn, remains to be seen.
As Stamicka said, this is like saying "wet fire".a sweaty, no skill casual
The difference is that this option does exist. There are trials that you can run that way, and still clear. I've led quite a few runs in which we cleared a vet trial with players who had no trial gear, mismatched or severely outdated gear, and who had never set foot in a trial before. Not every trial is suitable for that, but the option is there.I don’t believe many here would allow someone in a vet trial run with green gear and 160 CP with no trial gear.
There is no such option for PvP. You can't go into it like that, green, and be successful. The first iterations of Vengeance came somewhat close to that, and therefore were massively popular. (This time, the word is justified.) These days, even Vengeance suffers from the general problem of a declining player base (plus a dungeon event going on in parallel).
---
*
Except yo' mum, hehehe.
(Sorry.)
(Sorry.)
Varana
6
Re: How to Kill a community
CalamityCat wrote: »I don't think it's entirely fair to blame this all on Vengeance, given that it overlaps with subclassing. That's rather a large elephant in the room to ignore. I know in PvP circles Vengeance is the cause of all evils, but it's not the only culprit IMHO.
The biggest elephant of all lol. Everyone is arcanist beaming in PvE. And everyone is using hurricane and firing off merciless resolve in PvP. Everyone looks the same and acts the same. Cyrodiil was a place all kinds of different builds and various levels of players would congregate and cause all kinds of mayhem, even with the lag. More hammering of the nail into the proverbial wound.
Lord_Hev
9
Re: How to Kill a community
Hey everyone,
Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.
Vengeance did nothing to do this. This decline happened steadily over a period starting 6 years ago. Influx of proc-sets, reconstruction system, stickerbook, and a disregard for balance turned a pvp zone that had a very healthy and vibrant population that supported all types of players of varying skill-levels into the soulless zone it is today. And because of the initial decline, the population shrinkage and lowered population caps & faction locks have only driven the nail deeper into the wound. And that timeframe is being generous, the great pvp dieing off started even further in the past, around the 1.7 era.
Can't really consider Greyhost a "community" if it's literally the only active campaign, and at that only capable of holding the same faces every single day. "Primetime" lagfest is just one keep fight, sometimes two. And the rest of the map is a barren ghost-town.
That said, the overall sentiment is sound. The problems are far more deep then just blaming it on Vengeance server. The population influx and casual zerging was a natural phenomenon back in the day. Sure, there were lag issues but people still flocked to multiple booming campaigns. Wasn't until all these influxes of different sets were created along with other dubious widespread balancing that the overall "balance" became increasingly binary and punishing. Combine that with the lag and lowered population caps, and there's the real recipe for killing a community and destroying interest.
Lord_Hev
10
Just found out that 2FA is enabled for ESO accounts
This might be 'common knowledge' but I personally had no idea, I stumbled upon this by accident because I was having issues with one of my accounts.
Turns out back in April (a friend has found an official mention on this in Twitter) they finally enabled 2FA for ESO accounts.
Not the usual 'email' one we had (that is vulnerable to a number of 'attack vectors') but authenticator app based.
Can be enabled by logging in on your account and going 'Account > Manage Two-Factor'.
If this was announced in more 'regular' channels (forum/website) I totally missed it.
EDIT: The wording seems to suggest this is just for the account website, not for logging in the game itself.
Turns out back in April (a friend has found an official mention on this in Twitter) they finally enabled 2FA for ESO accounts.
Not the usual 'email' one we had (that is vulnerable to a number of 'attack vectors') but authenticator app based.
Can be enabled by logging in on your account and going 'Account > Manage Two-Factor'.
If this was announced in more 'regular' channels (forum/website) I totally missed it.
EDIT: The wording seems to suggest this is just for the account website, not for logging in the game itself.
ApoAlaia
1
Re: Flying mount alternative?
I use only the Dwarven animuculi mounts... How the fnark can all that metal manage to stay afloat when I ride one into the water?
Huge multi ton metal ships stay afloat in water.
Where is her pirate merchant mate?
Is there any chance "Celia Tyde, Lost Fleet Bursar" Will get a Merchant buddie aswell to keep her company?
I thought they always came in pairs 🤔
I'm trying to make the big decision of which banker/Merchant combo to get and well.. atm am stuck on the ravens/crows or the new pirate skeleton.. but only if there is a merchant pirate skeleton.. gotta be matching ya'know..
Any chance if you can confirm if that will happen or not?
I thought they always came in pairs 🤔
I'm trying to make the big decision of which banker/Merchant combo to get and well.. atm am stuck on the ravens/crows or the new pirate skeleton.. but only if there is a merchant pirate skeleton.. gotta be matching ya'know..
Any chance if you can confirm if that will happen or not?
Re: Poll: Should the 3 banners war in cyro end after the next chapter?
BardokRedSnow wrote: »
Asking if PvP should be removed from the game is, in my opinion as well, fits the definition of baiting and trolling.
From the ToS:
"Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community."
Re: Poll: Do you prefer the old or new templar spear model
I much prefer the new -animation- but think the old -model- looked better for actual templar aedric spear. So, not really sure how to vote on this one lol.
Lord_Hev
1