The Issue with Eye of the Storm (Destruction Ultimate Morph)

Anti_Virus · November 2016

DeanTheCat wrote: »

How about this as a compromise between the two sides?

- Destruction Staff ultimate's cost gets reduced to 175
- Base damage of the ultimate is reduced by 25%, but the ultimate now ignores armour.
- Eye of the Storm morph has a further damage reduction of 20% per tick (So 45% damage reduction), but now lasts an additional 2 seconds and is blockable.
- Elemental Rage morph now lasts an additional 3 seconds.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Creates a Magicka based counter to heavy armour, while increasing the viability of medium and light armour
- Reduces the burst damage from EotS, while keeping the overall damage similar and superior to devouring swarm.
- Creates counterplay to the EotS morph, while keeping the other morph as high damage area denial.

Your thoughts?

Um no thanks to armor pen, we allready have enough armor pen already.

If any change occurs revert it to the pre pts change and reduce the cost to 175.

Lava_Croft · November 2016

It must be said that while Eye of Bullcrap is being looked at, it would certainly not hurt the game to look at Incapacitating Strike and especially Dawnbreaker too. It's too easy to just them into your macro rotation and animation cancel the crap out of it. While Eye of Bullcrap may the prime example of bullcrap Ultimates, Incap and DB certainly belong in the same group.

thankyourat · November 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

6 seconds is a little ruff. It's plenty of time in 1v1 but in open world solo play it can be kind of annoying because it limits you going offensive. There are times you can get the kill but you have to stop everything to put your shields back up or else you will be one shotted by that xv1 nightblade waiting to incap you from stealth. The fact that you have to play so passive leads even more people to show up, now that winnable fight against 3 people has become a unwinnable fight against 8. That's why solo play is so much easier on stamina characters, they have so much burst and mobility it's almost ridiculous.

Lava_Croft · November 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

6 seconds is a little ruff. It's plenty of time in 1v1 but in open world solo play it can be kind of annoying because it limits you going offensive. There are times you can get the kill but you have to stop everything to put your shields back up or else you will be one shotted by that xv1 nightblade waiting to incap you from stealth. The fact that you have to play so passive leads even more people to show up, now that winnable fight against 3 people has become a unwinnable fight against 8. That's why solo play is so much easier on stamina characters, they have so much burst and mobility it's almost ridiculous.

And their main evase maneuver is also great as an offensive maneuver: The dodge roll.

Minalan · November 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

Lol, get ready for him to defend having to stack shields and how horrible it is to have 3 dmg shields with free impen.

Then all of you won't mind having shuffle nerfed to six seconds.

GreenSoup2HoT · November 2016

The-Baconator wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT poxy det is now completely unplayable in PvE, completely worthless in small scale PvP, again you feel it's balanced because you're only looking at it from a group PvP stand point.

its still a pretty good ultimate for solo play. an ultimate that does as much damage as batswarm with twice the duration and range is nothing to laugh about. sure it has a high cost but that just means you make sure you capitalize on it.

in its current state, an ultimate doing twice as much as bats while being fire damage against vamps is pretty insane.

The problem with half the damage and double the duration is that without the stupid OP damage you would never be able to take advantage of the full 12 seconds unless you were in the process of zerging people down at +5:1 odds. If they want to significantly reduce the damage they need to think of some secondary utility effects or the ult will just go back to being useless for over 90% of the playerbase and borderline useless for the other 10%.

I understand your concern, since its only a damage based ultimate its either terrible or way to good. I've done some thinking and i believe that the morph Elemental Rage should continue to have the high damage model and only EotS adjusted to its old damage model.

You say you need secondary effects for the ultimate to be effective which is true. All though you already do have a couple.

1: Destruction staffs provide 25% more damage against vampires. This alone in my opinion is very strong. So this morph in particular would be stronger then Bat Swarm and it applies Burning to all targets.
2: Ice staff immobilizes all targets inside and has a reduced cost. Also applies the chilled effect.
3: Lighting Staff. All we get is an increased duration and the ability to apply concussion.

Out of the 3 types of elements, in my opinion the only one that needs a buff is the Lightning version. Since you main Sorc, could you suggest some effects you would like to see to make EotS with the old damage model viable?

In my opinion, the destro train will still be very strong with its old damage model just for EotS. Gap closer spam makes staying on your targets for that long duration not an issue in my opinion. This is an AoE zerg busting ultimate, so it really shouldn't be effective in all situations.

The Element Rage morph however needs the high damage model because its just so easy to maneuver out of it. So this morph in my opinion is fine because its used different (like the way i used a similar aoe ult in gw2. you may remember the video i posted of 4 people wiping a flag of 100 with the same ultimate).

Do you honestly think that the destruction ultimate is fine the way it is? I'd like to hear some more thoughts out of you.

Calboy · November 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS.

You have to laugh at how zos recognized that bone shield was useless and very few people used it so they proceeded to buff it, too much, then nerfed it back to the point where no one uses it.

TrueGreenSmoker · November 2016

So Destro Ulti needs a nerf but Shuffle and Incap don't? (just to name a few stam abilities that are pretty OP) sure lets nerf magicka some more ofcourse...

GreenSoup2HoT · November 2016

TrueGreenSmoker wrote: »

So Destro Ulti needs a nerf but Shuffle and Incap don't? (just to name a few stam abilities that are pretty OP) sure lets nerf magicka some more ofcourse...

They are both on my list to personally. All though you need to consider that Incap is the Assassination ultimate designed to kill 1 player at a time. If proc sets were nerfed with the addition of burst/healing normalized it wouldn't be such a face roll ability and would be used to put big pressure on your opponent (with the heal debuff and increased damage) instead of just killing them because of its damage.

Shuffle could probably have its duration reduced to 10 seconds like shields. I only use it for the snare/immobilize immunity. The issue i have with Shuffle is that its basically a free cast for anyone who have Unchained which in my opinion is the biggest issue we have dividing stamina and magicka currently. If unchained were nerfed hard to say only 25% reduce cost and the other 120cp rank passives buffed (like the shield on block every 10 seconds, etc) then the divide would not be so big. I think another big issue with Shuffle is that you can use it with full heavy. It may be a good idea to restrict Armour skill lines to at least 5 of whatever Armour they are using (this would require a buff to immovable. best i could think of was increase immunity duration to cc to 10 seconds). With the addition to Unchained being normalized imo, you could possibly revert some of the stamina mechanic functions like roll dodge cost increase, no sprint regen, no block regen (draining stamina would not be an issue anymore if users had no unchained). This going a little off topic for sure so ill stop ranting about it.

This is a discussions about EotS. Yes Incap, Shuffle are issues imo but thats not the focal point of this thread.

Anti_Virus · November 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

Lol, get ready for him to defend having to stack shields and how horrible it is to have 3 dmg shields with free impen.

Then all of you won't mind having shuffle nerfed to six seconds.

I don't get why you compare shuffle to shields. Its like comparing apples to oranges. One give you full crit immunity and extended HP the other give you a chance to dodge a single attack.

You want to nerf shuffle ok revert the dodgeroll nerf then you can remove it from the game.

Ps. I like how you all complain about shuffle but never mention double take even though it does the exact same thing. A magblade with double take plus annulment is crazy dmg mitigation but in your logic 'If its magicka it can't be OP!'

Anti_Virus · November 2016

TrueGreenSmoker wrote: »

So Destro Ulti needs a nerf but Shuffle and Incap don't? (just to name a few stam abilities that are pretty OP) sure lets nerf magicka some more ofcourse...

Shuffle is OP but double take is not?

thankyourat · November 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

TrueGreenSmoker wrote: »

So Destro Ulti needs a nerf but Shuffle and Incap don't? (just to name a few stam abilities that are pretty OP) sure lets nerf magicka some more ofcourse...

Shuffle is OP but double take is not?

Shuffle isn't op. certain classes make it op mainly stam dk and stamplar especially if they are wearing heavy armor. major mending plus damage mitigation plus dodge chance is just too strong together. I have no problem with dodge chance on nightblades but there is no reason for a dk to have dodge chance it's already very survivable without it

Anti_Virus · November 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

6 seconds is a little ruff. It's plenty of time in 1v1 but in open world solo play it can be kind of annoying because it limits you going offensive. There are times you can get the kill but you have to stop everything to put your shields back up or else you will be one shotted by that xv1 nightblade waiting to incap you from stealth. The fact that you have to play so passive leads even more people to show up, now that winnable fight against 3 people has become a unwinnable fight against 8. That's why solo play is so much easier on stamina characters, they have so much burst and mobility it's almost ridiculous.

A sensible magicka based player, that I agree with.

In 1vX 6 sec shield might suck, but it's balanced in duels, plus being a glass cannon tank was just as OP as rollerblades( perma rolling NB)

Anti_Virus · November 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

TrueGreenSmoker wrote: »

So Destro Ulti needs a nerf but Shuffle and Incap don't? (just to name a few stam abilities that are pretty OP) sure lets nerf magicka some more ofcourse...

Shuffle is OP but double take is not?

Shuffle isn't op. certain classes make it op mainly stam dk and stamplar especially if they are wearing heavy armor. major mending plus damage mitigation plus dodge chance is just too strong together. I have no problem with dodge chance on nightblades but there is no reason for a dk to have dodge chance it's already very survivable without it

Once again pretty sensible, and yeah shuffle on a DK or Templar is OP, armor skills should be used only if you are wearing 5 pieces of that armor.

Immovable was nerfed because LA builds used it back in 1.5

Waffennacht · November 2016

To the players saying because vampires take extra damage because it's fire etc: There should be SOME downside to being a vampire. I can't think of much that makes a vampire second guess their choice.

I think it's a red herring to include the vampire weakness as an example for eots being too powerful.

Lord-Otto · November 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

6 seconds is a little ruff. It's plenty of time in 1v1 but in open world solo play it can be kind of annoying because it limits you going offensive. There are times you can get the kill but you have to stop everything to put your shields back up or else you will be one shotted by that xv1 nightblade waiting to incap you from stealth. The fact that you have to play so passive leads even more people to show up, now that winnable fight against 3 people has become a unwinnable fight against 8. That's why solo play is so much easier on stamina characters, they have so much burst and mobility it's almost ridiculous.

A sensible magicka based player, that I agree with.

In 1vX 6 sec shield might suck, but it's balanced in duels, plus being a glass cannon tank was just as OP as rollerblades( perma rolling NB)

Which leads again to the point that mag builds need something for group play.
We're running circles here, obviously. Magicka players need certain boons and if you nerf EotS too hard, as people here suggest, we're back to DB era where mag builds except Templars went nearly extinct. Don't gimme that bullcrap about competent players stacking shields right and magicka being ranged and having healing... The numbers in the main campaign and streamers agree that mag builds were plain inferior.
Instead of crying how only bad players complain about shield nerfs, maybe certain individuals should git gud and stop crying about EotS. See, it works both ways around.
Anyway, gimme magical Dawnbreaker back and I'm fine with EotS being erased from existence.

thankyourat · November 2016

Anti_Virus wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

6 seconds is a little ruff. It's plenty of time in 1v1 but in open world solo play it can be kind of annoying because it limits you going offensive. There are times you can get the kill but you have to stop everything to put your shields back up or else you will be one shotted by that xv1 nightblade waiting to incap you from stealth. The fact that you have to play so passive leads even more people to show up, now that winnable fight against 3 people has become a unwinnable fight against 8. That's why solo play is so much easier on stamina characters, they have so much burst and mobility it's almost ridiculous.

A sensible magicka based player, that I agree with.

In 1vX 6 sec shield might suck, but it's balanced in duels, plus being a glass cannon tank was just as OP as rollerblades( perma rolling NB)

How often do you get a 1v1 in cyrodiil though alot of the time it's you vs a lot. That's why alot of people aren't playing magicka anymore. Along with all the roots and snares alot of times you are just permanently rooted stacking shields until you die. Yes in duels shields are good but some of these stamina players can eat right through your shield in 1 burst that's cheaper for them to recast than it is to recast your shields. But I think that's more of issue with proc sets doing to much damage. shields may be balanced but it's impossible to tell as long as we have proc sets around

Sandman929 · November 2016

I still don't see why they just don't make Armor skills require 5 pieces of the armor weight. Change Double Take to a short duration and extend it's timer with each piece of medium armor equipped and this whole issue suddenly becomes less bothersome. Heavy armor doesn't get another form of damage mitigation, medium armor rightfully gets the dodge chance.

Strider_Roshin · November 2016

Sandman929 wrote: »

I still don't see why they just don't make Armor skills require 5 pieces of the armor weight. Change Double Take to a short duration and extend it's timer with each piece of medium armor equipped and this whole issue suddenly becomes less bothersome. Heavy armor doesn't get another form of damage mitigation, medium armor rightfully gets the dodge chance.

This doesn't have anything to do with EotS, but it is a great suggestion.

Sandman929 · November 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I still don't see why they just don't make Armor skills require 5 pieces of the armor weight. Change Double Take to a short duration and extend it's timer with each piece of medium armor equipped and this whole issue suddenly becomes less bothersome. Heavy armor doesn't get another form of damage mitigation, medium armor rightfully gets the dodge chance.

This doesn't have anything to do with EotS, but it is a great suggestion.

No, but the conversation drifted a bit into "shuffle is OP"...I'll get back on topic quick. Destro Ulti is painful from one person, ridiculous from several people at once.

thankyourat · November 2016

Sandman929 wrote: »

I still don't see why they just don't make Armor skills require 5 pieces of the armor weight. Change Double Take to a short duration and extend it's timer with each piece of medium armor equipped and this whole issue suddenly becomes less bothersome. Heavy armor doesn't get another form of damage mitigation, medium armor rightfully gets the dodge chance.

But then I lose double take on my magblade why not just make mirage a stamina morph

Durham · November 2016

Just make it like standard stationary....

Sandman929 · November 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I still don't see why they just don't make Armor skills require 5 pieces of the armor weight. Change Double Take to a short duration and extend it's timer with each piece of medium armor equipped and this whole issue suddenly becomes less bothersome. Heavy armor doesn't get another form of damage mitigation, medium armor rightfully gets the dodge chance.

But then I lose double take on my magblade why not just make mirage a stamina morph

Fair point, but the skill could just scale up in duration with Light or Medium armor to fix that. Or split and make Mirage the stam morph that scales in duration with Medium armor and Double Take remains magicka and scales in duration with Light.