Oh, I assure you, the things I listed are useless for either PvE or PvP.WolfingHour wrote: »Wrobel's team is also in charge of itemization. Take a look at the many tanking sets that have been released in the past half year to get an idea of how well they understand what tanks actually want.WolfingHour wrote: »Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »So as a counterpoint to Wrobel's tank example I ran some numbers using my typical tank setup. This is a DK stamina tank, 5 piece heavy armor, 75 points in Block Expertise and x1 Block reducing Enchantment. See here for more build details. While I'm relatively new to the tanking game it seems to work just fine for all the veteran dunegons I've tried so far, though I haven't dared try vWGT/vICP yet.
It is a standard block-heavy "hybrid" DK build if that makes any sense. Run in, get everything's attention, block and regain Stamina by casting Igneous Shield, potions, and Ultimates in boss fights. With careful use it is basically self-sufficient...I can perma-block and don't need much if any healing. The downside to this type of build is low DPS but I leave those details to the other squishy folk.
So I took a look at two common situations in dungeons: tanking trash mobs and tanking bosses and compared the resource usage on live and PTS. On PTS I'm using the same equipment but with the CP changes I have taken 57 points from Magician and 8 points from Warlord to put into the moved Block Expertise.
Trash Fight
I looked at a typical, short 30 sec trash fight where I get hit 40 times (once every 0.5 secs at first and less at the end). This is a short fight so I can basically list all the abilities I use and the resources I regen to get a close to exact figure.
- Live = I can cast 11 magicka abilities (x4 Igneous, x3 Claw, x1 Cinder, x3 Grip) and have 4k stamina left over at the end
- PTS = I can cast 9 magicka abilities (x7 Igneous, Claw+Cinder) and have -3k stamina left over.
In this situation I'm hurting due to the increase in resource costs across the board (block cost increased from 633 to 839, Magicka abilities +25%, Stamina +12%). I need to cast more Igneous to regain stamina so I can keep blocking but that severely limits the utility and little DPS I can do. And even with that I'm down 7k stamina over the live version.
Boss Fight
To be conservative I choose a boss fight of 2 minutes where I get hit 80 times (once every 1.5 seconds). Since this is longer I just looked at how much magicka/stamina I had available to use over the course of the fight assuming I'm blocking most of the time. I assume I cast Igneous x20 times over the course of the fight. I'm not including regen from potions and ultimate since they should be the same in both cases.
- Live = 25k Magicka and 3k Stamina available
- PTS = 30k Magicka and 8k Stamina available
So a bit more resources available from the buffed Constitution that offsets the increased resource costs. This good, however, there are a fair number of boss fights where I would be hit more than 80 times in 120 seconds due to adds and AoEs. In this situation the cross-over point would be getting hit around once per second. Basically it boils down to:
- Getting Hit Less than 1/sec = PTS is a "little" better than Live
- Getting Hit More than 1/sec = Live is "much" better than PTS
I say a "little" and "much" as it really depends how often you're getting hit and using resources with the buff to constitution. If you're only getting hit once every 4 seconds PTS will be vastly superior while getting hit at the cap of every 0.5 seconds then PTS will be far worse.
Analysis and Comments
- Block Cost / Constitution -- Wrobel's example showed that in that case the buff to Constitution resulted in a net gain of resources. Unfortunately, in my example it only shows a small increase in cases where I am hit less than once a second. Different builds will have a different cross-over point like this.
- Hybrids -- The game already punishes hybrid builds to such an extent that they are really only viable in tank builds that don't care about DPS. Moving the CP tree around Moving Block Expertise to The Shadow means hybrids have to choose between block cost reductions and Magicka/Stamina cost reductions. The global increase in ability costs just makes it worse. If I only put 75 points into the new Block Expertise I'm loosing 57 points in Magician and 8 in Warlord to do so and in a fair number of tanking situations the buff to constitution is nowhere near enough to compensate for it.
- Average Ability Cost -- I would advise caution about using an "average" ability cost in such simulations. In Wrobel's example he used 2700. In my build the stamina abilities are generally low cost (1200, 2100, 1700, 900, 3300 Stamina) while the Magicka costs are high (4050, 4590, 3780). It also seems a little unfair to omit the 10% increased cost of all abilities on PTS. If you do the math for a casting a 2700 resource ability on live with 67 points in Magician to a 3000 resource ability on PTS with 0 points in Magician then the PTS ability costs more even with the buff to constitution (+7% more, 2187 cost on Live vs 2348 cost on PTS using his example of a spell cast every 2 seconds).
- "Average" Cast Times -- Wrobel uses the "ability every 2 seconds" figure which may be fine for long fights but not typical for shorter fights. On most fights my typical MO is to use up my Magicka right away, quaff a potion, and use that up and then keep using my Magicka whenever I have it, quaffing potions and using ultimates when I can. If we switch to a "spell every 1 second" it makes the example comparison much worse for the PTS.
- "Average" Tank Build -- I don't think the "average" tank build is using 7 heavy armor and x3 block cost enchants. Most tanks, especially a hybrid build like mine, would prefer a 5/1/1 setup to take advantage of the Undaunted passive and use a minimal number of block cost enchants in favor of other more useful ones. While it may be useful to look at a "max" tank build like that it hides the fact that a "lesser" tank build like mine will get less (sometimes far less) buffs from the cumulative changes.
- CP Change -- While I have no doubts that other tank builds may benefit from the change it is a noticeable loss for any tank relying on reducing resource costs across the board (magicka, stamina, and block costs). Not only does it affect my tanking but it makes me less effective when I wish to switch into DPS mode (all abilities cost more). I don't benefit much from increased healing CPs or Hardy/Defender as I don't take much damage or need much healing (most of the time anyways). The extra 75 red CP points only have some use in Bastion or Heavy Armor Focus. He also mentions Unchained as one of the most influential passives for tanks. I rarely need to break free and don't really consider this to be that useful for my build...most of my Stamina abilities are low cost and I use more Magicka abilities anyways.
- Sturdy -- I'm not sure it is fair to just say "just wear sturdy traits" to offset the loss of Bracing and increased block cost given the cost to do so. That's some 70-80k per piece on PC-NA assuming the item is crafted and potentially weeks/months of farming if it is not. Here's where a one-time trait change would be useful, especially considering all the other trait changes involved (which are generally good, no complaints here).
- Wrath -- This new HA passive is a little underwhelming with buff of 200 WD/SD. I can basically get that with a single jewelry enchant. I think it needs to be considerably higher to offset the increased DPS we can get with LA/MA passives.
Suggested Changes
I realize at this point changes are unlikely but I'd like to suggest some anyways...
- Global Ability Cost Increase -- Revert the increase to all ability costs at cp160 such that they are the current values at v16 on Live. Other than a "nicer" cost function I don't really see the purpose of doing so and going back to the original costs would help a great deal in the block cost changes and the CP change which results in a partial/complete loss of Magician/Warlord for some builds.
- Constitution -- I'd like this to better scale with the number of mobs attacking you. Perhaps it should work like the Wrath passive but give you Stamina/Magicka back instead (not recovery). Something like "Gain 50 Magicka/Stamina per second for 5 seconds when you take damage, stacking up to 10 times." for 7 pieces of HA.
- Wrath -- I'm unsure of the exact values needed but it should be similar to the DPS passives of Light and Medium armor. It should be more useful in PvE where you are tanking a dozen mobs and taking +10 hits/second. Perhaps something like "Gain 20 Weapon and Spell Damage for 10 seconds when you take damage, stacking up to 40 times.".
- Trait Change -- A one-time free ability to change traits on gear after the patch. This would let people choose whether they needed to go sturdy on some items or to keep their build and eat the increased block cost. Not to mention trait changes are something much needed/desired in the game anyways.
Conclusion
The overall changes to block and resource costs can be offset by the change to constitution but only in cases where you are hit infrequently and depending on your exact build. For some block-heavy builds you will often be far worse in overall resource costs on PTS compared to Live.
Thank you for making this post! I think your build and your numbers are much closer to what the typical tank setup looks like, which is very different from Wrobels post.
I wanted to do a similar post, but can't really be bothered, since I fear Wrobel has already made up his mind and our feedback does not really matter in the end. Wrobel has shown again and again that he does not understand how the tanking role actually works in-game. He says he doesn't want to make tanking worse, but then makes it worse anyway.
I wouldn't go that far. I honestly belive that the developers vision on how tanking should work is not fully aligned with the expectations of the players, ot at least part of them.
Jolting Arms
Tormenter
Permafrost
Glorious Defender
vMA tank sword
It may come down to PvE vs PvP.
While the developers implement sets (or skill revamps) that fit both, players look at them separately.
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »Welp...hoped for a new dev response about this topic...
Razorback174 wrote: »Why do they continue to make tanking so difficult? They keep making it a role that DOES NOT appeal to new players. What's more fun? Intense resource management simulator (Tank) or swing like wild and watch everything die around you (DPS)? Which one is going to more useful in PvP? In Maelstrom? Basic questing? During an arbitrary DPS-check?(this one should be obvious)
I've tanked a lot with the group finder (the queue times are incredible when you're not DPS). And even with a full V16, 160 CP, redguard DK tank character, I've still had some struggles with newbie groups (level 10-15's in spindle). I can't begin to imagine what sort of hell a new, low-level PUG tank faces on live.
Can you devs not see an issue with this? Why would anyone want to play a tank and shoehorn themselves into a role you seem determined to kill? Maybe it's the ZoS mindset that glamorizes damage and penalizes anything else contrary to it.
The addition of wrath was a nice touch, but the removal of bracing is the final nail in the coffin for heavy for me. Medium and light will now outclass heavy (again). Why bother blocking when you can endlessly roll or cast a damage shield?
If your intent was to uncouple heavy armor from strictly tanking, then you accomplished that goal quite admirably. Unfortunately, you've also made it absolutely useless for just about everything else in the process.
-a frustrated (soon to be retired) PUG tank
My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine
My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine
Nail -> Head.
Rugz_Maulgoth wrote: »My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine
Nail -> Head.
Just to add, as a newbie, if all you did was take sturdy traits on your armor and shield, your block cost is significantly better in DB than on live. Even without jewelry and/or CP. This is a significant and noticeable change but it pigeon holes tanks into using Sturdy armor traits over other forms of block cost reduction as block cost jewelry and CP reduction have become slightly less effective because of the way the formula calculates everything and the strength of Sturdy..
Regearing is what people are complaining about. It sucks that they have to regear but the tank playstyle has received a significant buff.
arth-grogalith wrote: »Just run medium armor with a couple of sturdy traits. You can tank, block, perma-roll-dodge and DPS.
Unless massive mitigation is added, or some other perks, heavy armor is USELESS.
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...
Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .
On Live, I enjoy playing my stamina nighblade as both DPS and a Tank. With Block Cost Reduction in the Thief, I will no longer be able to tank because those Thief CP will be allocated in Reduced Stam Cost and Stam Recovery. The same goes for my Magicka DK tank/dps/healer, but with reduced magicka cost and recovery. I will be forced to play as one role per character, which greatly reduces the flexibility this game was known for. How can I get around this dilemma without sacrificing my damage output and be able to have a duel role?
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »Go dps and slot a taunt sadly.
99% of the content can be done without tank. With vca,wgt and vicp nerfed it's even less.
Or try medium armour for the increased stam regen/reduction and shuffle+armor master...
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »Go dps and slot a taunt sadly.
99% of the content can be done without tank. With vca,wgt and vicp nerfed it's even less.
Or try medium armour for the increased stam regen/reduction and shuffle+armor master...
I think I will just retire my nightblade as a tank and go full tank with my dk. I shouldn't have to waste any thief points for tanking.
BlackMadara wrote: »What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?
I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.
Rune_Relic wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?
I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.
That is atcually not as nuts as it originally sounds.
You could have
Tank/Heal/DD buffs in one tree
Tank/Heal/DD debuffs in one tree
Resoruce management in another tree.
This way we split buff/debuff/resource.
But;
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD buff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD debuff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD resource.
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...
Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .
I don't, but if they keep nerfing our options, there is not much left.
The fact that this patch was supposed to encourage more people into tanks make it even more ironic...
mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...
Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .
I don't, but if they keep nerfing our options, there is not much left.
The fact that this patch was supposed to encourage more people into tanks make it even more ironic...
Sorry, i missed your response.
I would agree, the one thing I love about tanking is that we don't have to use a cookie cutter build. as of now we are not forced into having X set-up. However this new DLC has me wondering.
Rune_Relic wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?
I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.
That is atcually not as nuts as it originally sounds.
You could have
Tank/Heal/DD buffs in one tree
Tank/Heal/DD debuffs in one tree
Resoruce management in another tree.
This way we split buff/debuff/resource.
But;
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD buff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD debuff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD resource.