Detailed Explanation of Block Cost Changes

code65536

WolfingHour wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

So as a counterpoint to Wrobel's tank example I ran some numbers using my typical tank setup. This is a DK stamina tank, 5 piece heavy armor, 75 points in Block Expertise and x1 Block reducing Enchantment. See here for more build details. While I'm relatively new to the tanking game it seems to work just fine for all the veteran dunegons I've tried so far, though I haven't dared try vWGT/vICP yet.

It is a standard block-heavy "hybrid" DK build if that makes any sense. Run in, get everything's attention, block and regain Stamina by casting Igneous Shield, potions, and Ultimates in boss fights. With careful use it is basically self-sufficient...I can perma-block and don't need much if any healing. The downside to this type of build is low DPS but I leave those details to the other squishy folk.

So I took a look at two common situations in dungeons: tanking trash mobs and tanking bosses and compared the resource usage on live and PTS. On PTS I'm using the same equipment but with the CP changes I have taken 57 points from Magician and 8 points from Warlord to put into the moved Block Expertise.

Trash Fight
I looked at a typical, short 30 sec trash fight where I get hit 40 times (once every 0.5 secs at first and less at the end). This is a short fight so I can basically list all the abilities I use and the resources I regen to get a close to exact figure.

• Live = I can cast 11 magicka abilities (x4 Igneous, x3 Claw, x1 Cinder, x3 Grip) and have 4k stamina left over at the end
• PTS = I can cast 9 magicka abilities (x7 Igneous, Claw+Cinder) and have -3k stamina left over.

In this situation I'm hurting due to the increase in resource costs across the board (block cost increased from 633 to 839, Magicka abilities +25%, Stamina +12%). I need to cast more Igneous to regain stamina so I can keep blocking but that severely limits the utility and little DPS I can do. And even with that I'm down 7k stamina over the live version.

Boss Fight
To be conservative I choose a boss fight of 2 minutes where I get hit 80 times (once every 1.5 seconds). Since this is longer I just looked at how much magicka/stamina I had available to use over the course of the fight assuming I'm blocking most of the time. I assume I cast Igneous x20 times over the course of the fight. I'm not including regen from potions and ultimate since they should be the same in both cases.

• Live = 25k Magicka and 3k Stamina available
• PTS = 30k Magicka and 8k Stamina available

So a bit more resources available from the buffed Constitution that offsets the increased resource costs. This good, however, there are a fair number of boss fights where I would be hit more than 80 times in 120 seconds due to adds and AoEs. In this situation the cross-over point would be getting hit around once per second. Basically it boils down to:

• Getting Hit Less than 1/sec = PTS is a "little" better than Live
• Getting Hit More than 1/sec = Live is "much" better than PTS

I say a "little" and "much" as it really depends how often you're getting hit and using resources with the buff to constitution. If you're only getting hit once every 4 seconds PTS will be vastly superior while getting hit at the cap of every 0.5 seconds then PTS will be far worse.

Analysis and Comments

1. Block Cost / Constitution -- Wrobel's example showed that in that case the buff to Constitution resulted in a net gain of resources. Unfortunately, in my example it only shows a small increase in cases where I am hit less than once a second. Different builds will have a different cross-over point like this.
2. Hybrids -- The game already punishes hybrid builds to such an extent that they are really only viable in tank builds that don't care about DPS. Moving the CP tree around Moving Block Expertise to The Shadow means hybrids have to choose between block cost reductions and Magicka/Stamina cost reductions. The global increase in ability costs just makes it worse. If I only put 75 points into the new Block Expertise I'm loosing 57 points in Magician and 8 in Warlord to do so and in a fair number of tanking situations the buff to constitution is nowhere near enough to compensate for it.
3. Average Ability Cost -- I would advise caution about using an "average" ability cost in such simulations. In Wrobel's example he used 2700. In my build the stamina abilities are generally low cost (1200, 2100, 1700, 900, 3300 Stamina) while the Magicka costs are high (4050, 4590, 3780). It also seems a little unfair to omit the 10% increased cost of all abilities on PTS. If you do the math for a casting a 2700 resource ability on live with 67 points in Magician to a 3000 resource ability on PTS with 0 points in Magician then the PTS ability costs more even with the buff to constitution (+7% more, 2187 cost on Live vs 2348 cost on PTS using his example of a spell cast every 2 seconds).
4. "Average" Cast Times -- Wrobel uses the "ability every 2 seconds" figure which may be fine for long fights but not typical for shorter fights. On most fights my typical MO is to use up my Magicka right away, quaff a potion, and use that up and then keep using my Magicka whenever I have it, quaffing potions and using ultimates when I can. If we switch to a "spell every 1 second" it makes the example comparison much worse for the PTS.
5. "Average" Tank Build -- I don't think the "average" tank build is using 7 heavy armor and x3 block cost enchants. Most tanks, especially a hybrid build like mine, would prefer a 5/1/1 setup to take advantage of the Undaunted passive and use a minimal number of block cost enchants in favor of other more useful ones. While it may be useful to look at a "max" tank build like that it hides the fact that a "lesser" tank build like mine will get less (sometimes far less) buffs from the cumulative changes.
6. CP Change -- While I have no doubts that other tank builds may benefit from the change it is a noticeable loss for any tank relying on reducing resource costs across the board (magicka, stamina, and block costs). Not only does it affect my tanking but it makes me less effective when I wish to switch into DPS mode (all abilities cost more). I don't benefit much from increased healing CPs or Hardy/Defender as I don't take much damage or need much healing (most of the time anyways). The extra 75 red CP points only have some use in Bastion or Heavy Armor Focus. He also mentions Unchained as one of the most influential passives for tanks. I rarely need to break free and don't really consider this to be that useful for my build...most of my Stamina abilities are low cost and I use more Magicka abilities anyways.
7. Sturdy -- I'm not sure it is fair to just say "just wear sturdy traits" to offset the loss of Bracing and increased block cost given the cost to do so. That's some 70-80k per piece on PC-NA assuming the item is crafted and potentially weeks/months of farming if it is not. Here's where a one-time trait change would be useful, especially considering all the other trait changes involved (which are generally good, no complaints here).
8. Wrath -- This new HA passive is a little underwhelming with buff of 200 WD/SD. I can basically get that with a single jewelry enchant. I think it needs to be considerably higher to offset the increased DPS we can get with LA/MA passives.

Suggested Changes
I realize at this point changes are unlikely but I'd like to suggest some anyways...

• Global Ability Cost Increase -- Revert the increase to all ability costs at cp160 such that they are the current values at v16 on Live. Other than a "nicer" cost function I don't really see the purpose of doing so and going back to the original costs would help a great deal in the block cost changes and the CP change which results in a partial/complete loss of Magician/Warlord for some builds.
• Constitution -- I'd like this to better scale with the number of mobs attacking you. Perhaps it should work like the Wrath passive but give you Stamina/Magicka back instead (not recovery). Something like "Gain 50 Magicka/Stamina per second for 5 seconds when you take damage, stacking up to 10 times." for 7 pieces of HA.
• Wrath -- I'm unsure of the exact values needed but it should be similar to the DPS passives of Light and Medium armor. It should be more useful in PvE where you are tanking a dozen mobs and taking +10 hits/second. Perhaps something like "Gain 20 Weapon and Spell Damage for 10 seconds when you take damage, stacking up to 40 times.".
• Trait Change -- A one-time free ability to change traits on gear after the patch. This would let people choose whether they needed to go sturdy on some items or to keep their build and eat the increased block cost. Not to mention trait changes are something much needed/desired in the game anyways.

Conclusion
The overall changes to block and resource costs can be offset by the change to constitution but only in cases where you are hit infrequently and depending on your exact build. For some block-heavy builds you will often be far worse in overall resource costs on PTS compared to Live.

Thank you for making this post! I think your build and your numbers are much closer to what the typical tank setup looks like, which is very different from Wrobels post.

I wanted to do a similar post, but can't really be bothered, since I fear Wrobel has already made up his mind and our feedback does not really matter in the end. Wrobel has shown again and again that he does not understand how the tanking role actually works in-game. He says he doesn't want to make tanking worse, but then makes it worse anyway.

I wouldn't go that far. I honestly belive that the developers vision on how tanking should work is not fully aligned with the expectations of the players, ot at least part of them.

Wrobel's team is also in charge of itemization. Take a look at the many tanking sets that have been released in the past half year to get an idea of how well they understand what tanks actually want.

Jolting Arms
Tormenter
Permafrost
Glorious Defender
vMA tank sword

It may come down to PvE vs PvP.

While the developers implement sets (or skill revamps) that fit both, players look at them separately.

Oh, I assure you, the things I listed are useless for either PvE or PvP.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

While we are glad to see our members making use of the forums. However, we would like to inform you all that we have removed some rather Flaming posts. It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion. Please be aware that future violations of the Community Rules may result in this thread being closed. Thank you for your understanding.

Teridaxus

Welp...hoped for a new dev response about this topic...

Jade1986

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Welp...hoped for a new dev response about this topic...

lol.

I give up. Blocking will be useless in the coming patch unless you give up everything you have and put make every trait block centric and make all your enchants block centric. Might as well change my stam knight SnB character into a dual wielding / 2 handed stamknight now. I saw someone dodge 17 times in a row on BWB yesterday, and I, with all block reduction passives taken with SnB, and HEavy armor could only block 4 or 5 hits before I was out of stamina, so I can ONLY imagine how awful it will be after DB hits. Seriously, what on earth are these people thinking?

Personofsecrets

I can't wait for 10 days until I get to gain stats that I don't want at all in exchange for getting rid of stats that I do want!

Great trade @ZOS_RichLambert !!!

Razorback174

Why do they continue to make tanking so difficult? They keep making it a role that DOES NOT appeal to new players. What's more fun? Intense resource management simulator (Tank) or swing like wild and watch everything die around you (DPS)? Which one is going to more useful in PvP? In Maelstrom? Basic questing? During an arbitrary DPS-check?(this one should be obvious)

I've tanked a lot with the group finder (the queue times are incredible when you're not DPS). And even with a full V16, 160 CP, redguard DK tank character, I've still had some struggles with newbie groups (level 10-15's in spindle). I can't begin to imagine what sort of hell a new, low-level PUG tank faces on live.

Can you devs not see an issue with this? Why would anyone want to play a tank and shoehorn themselves into a role you seem determined to kill? Maybe it's the ZoS mindset that glamorizes damage and penalizes anything else contrary to it.

The addition of wrath was a nice touch, but the removal of bracing is the final nail in the coffin for heavy for me. Medium and light will now outclass heavy (again). Why bother blocking when you can endlessly roll or cast a damage shield?

If your intent was to uncouple heavy armor from strictly tanking, then you accomplished that goal quite admirably. Unfortunately, you've also made it absolutely useless for just about everything else in the process.

-a frustrated (soon to be retired) PUG tank

Jade1986

Razorback174 wrote: »

Why do they continue to make tanking so difficult? They keep making it a role that DOES NOT appeal to new players. What's more fun? Intense resource management simulator (Tank) or swing like wild and watch everything die around you (DPS)? Which one is going to more useful in PvP? In Maelstrom? Basic questing? During an arbitrary DPS-check?(this one should be obvious)

I've tanked a lot with the group finder (the queue times are incredible when you're not DPS). And even with a full V16, 160 CP, redguard DK tank character, I've still had some struggles with newbie groups (level 10-15's in spindle). I can't begin to imagine what sort of hell a new, low-level PUG tank faces on live.

Can you devs not see an issue with this? Why would anyone want to play a tank and shoehorn themselves into a role you seem determined to kill? Maybe it's the ZoS mindset that glamorizes damage and penalizes anything else contrary to it.

The addition of wrath was a nice touch, but the removal of bracing is the final nail in the coffin for heavy for me. Medium and light will now outclass heavy (again). Why bother blocking when you can endlessly roll or cast a damage shield?

If your intent was to uncouple heavy armor from strictly tanking, then you accomplished that goal quite admirably. Unfortunately, you've also made it absolutely useless for just about everything else in the process.

-a frustrated (soon to be retired) PUG tank

I saw someone roll 15 times in a row in BWB yesterday, and I could only think, " man, I wish I could block 15 hits in a row and NOT be out of stamina "

hrothbern

Just in case you are a newbie player that wants to pick up the Tank role... and read this thread:

with so many posts, that are of the opinion that Tanking got a nerf.... and even to that degree that Tanking is not really possible anymore... and so on.

Well....
If you were for example used to "tank" with your Jewelry enchanted with Spell Damage increase and your Armor Traits were Divines..
Yes, you got a nerf on Blocking

My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine

Woeler

hrothbern wrote: »

My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine

Nail -> Head.

ClockworkArc

Woeler wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine

Nail -> Head.

Just to add, as a newbie, if all you did was take sturdy traits on your armor and shield, your block cost is significantly better in DB than on live. Even without jewelry and/or CP. This is a significant and noticeable change but it pigeon holes tanks into using Sturdy armor traits over other forms of block cost reduction as block cost jewelry and CP reduction have become slightly less effective because of the way the formula calculates everything and the strength of Sturdy..

Regearing is what people are complaining about. It sucks that they have to regear but the tank playstyle has received a significant buff.

Personofsecrets

Rugz_Maulgoth wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My two cents:
Don't get confused and believe that the sky is falling.
Just build a normal Tank with 5+ HA, S&B, some Block Costs Jewelry and some Sturdy traits....
Use Hist Bark set for Dodge as DK or Blur ability Dodge as NB if there are many mobs....
and you will be fine

Nail -> Head.

Just to add, as a newbie, if all you did was take sturdy traits on your armor and shield, your block cost is significantly better in DB than on live. Even without jewelry and/or CP. This is a significant and noticeable change but it pigeon holes tanks into using Sturdy armor traits over other forms of block cost reduction as block cost jewelry and CP reduction have become slightly less effective because of the way the formula calculates everything and the strength of Sturdy..

Regearing is what people are complaining about. It sucks that they have to regear but the tank playstyle has received a significant buff.

removing bracing only to add it in the form of sturdy. is a loss of divines trait in exchange for more damage.

constitution is increased, but not only was their a loss of divines trait mentioned above, but also a loss be the moving of block expertise.

Additionally, to get the biggest buff from constitution, a player loses their other armor types. Doing so reduces magic cost reduction and health.

BTW, costs are also increasing for all skills.

Hardly a buff. If we are thinking positive, then this is an extremely annoying rearrangement that keeps HA around the same.

Teridaxus

And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...

Arthg

Just run medium armor with a couple of sturdy traits. You can tank, block, perma-roll-dodge and DPS.

Unless massive mitigation is added, or some other perks, heavy armor is USELESS.

Jade1986

arth-grogalith wrote: »

Just run medium armor with a couple of sturdy traits. You can tank, block, perma-roll-dodge and DPS.

Unless massive mitigation is added, or some other perks, heavy armor is USELESS.

I believe there is a bit more mitigation and health regen / health gained, and healing recieved now. Still though, there is no reason bracing should have been removed with these tiny buffs.

Lavum

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...

Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .

Teridaxus

Lavum wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...

Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .

I don't, but if they keep nerfing our options, there is not much left.
The fact that this patch was supposed to encourage more people into tanks make it even more ironic...

davidautry_ESO

Sounds like to me you're just watering down tanks and have given up on them as an archetype. I think when we open up with "all purple gear" as the baseline we're missing the forest for the trees. What about the new player experience? Is the future of this game hinged on keeping current players?

Tanks need value. Right now it's really about having the ability to switch into a "DPS" or "Heal" mode (stam/magika builds). This change seems to make it easier on non-tanks to be tanks unless I'm misunderstanding. So what's the point in going heavy armor, a stick in the mud?

This game, in large part, is about mobility and some classes are stymied by their abilities (nightblade getting armor buff on self where as templar gets a circle on the ground). It makes a HUGE difference in the way the classes balance out. There are several examples of areas that don't even require tanks and let's not even start to talk about PVP or Vet Maelstrom.

Ebonwind

On Live, I enjoy playing my stamina nighblade as both DPS and a Tank. With Block Cost Reduction in the Thief, I will no longer be able to tank because those Thief CP will be allocated in Reduced Stam Cost and Stam Recovery. The same goes for my Magicka DK tank/dps/healer, but with reduced magicka cost and recovery. I will be forced to play as one role per character, which greatly reduces the flexibility this game was known for. How can I get around this dilemma without sacrificing my damage output and be able to have a duel role?

Teridaxus

Go dps and slot a taunt sadly.
99% of the content can be done without tank. With vca,wgt and vicp nerfed it's even less.

Or try medium armour for the increased stam regen/reduction and shuffle+armor master...

Dubhliam

.

Ebonwind wrote: »

On Live, I enjoy playing my stamina nighblade as both DPS and a Tank. With Block Cost Reduction in the Thief, I will no longer be able to tank because those Thief CP will be allocated in Reduced Stam Cost and Stam Recovery. The same goes for my Magicka DK tank/dps/healer, but with reduced magicka cost and recovery. I will be forced to play as one role per character, which greatly reduces the flexibility this game was known for. How can I get around this dilemma without sacrificing my damage output and be able to have a duel role?

I have the same issue as you do. Regularly switch my mag DK from tank to DD.

My workaround this issue (as mag DK) will probably be to replace some of my tanking traits with Sturdy.
I already have 2/3 jewelry with reduce block cost, so that helps a lot.
I will much rather sacrifice a trait than an enchantment because enchantments provide large magicka regen, while a simple divines does not benefit as much as sturdy.
All in all, not a lot of CPs will go to Shadow Ward.

That being said, my tanking builds will definitely suffer after these changes go live.
And I KNOW I'm not the only one.

Tanks keep getting punched in the face by ZOS on a regular basis.
Guess they think we know how to take a beating.

Ebonwind

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Go dps and slot a taunt sadly.
99% of the content can be done without tank. With vca,wgt and vicp nerfed it's even less.

Or try medium armour for the increased stam regen/reduction and shuffle+armor master...

I think I will just retire my nightblade as a tank and go full tank with my dk. I shouldn't have to waste any thief points for tanking.

Refuse2GrowUp

Ebonwind wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Go dps and slot a taunt sadly.
99% of the content can be done without tank. With vca,wgt and vicp nerfed it's even less.

Or try medium armour for the increased stam regen/reduction and shuffle+armor master...

I think I will just retire my nightblade as a tank and go full tank with my dk. I shouldn't have to waste any thief points for tanking.

I think I may just retire my tank. Not fun getting forced to play one optimized build, or constantly have to learn to adapt

Rune_Relic

BlackMadara wrote: »

Lavum wrote: »

What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?

I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.

That is atcually not as nuts as it originally sounds.

You could have
Tank/Heal/DD buffs in one tree
Tank/Heal/DD debuffs in one tree
Resoruce management in another tree.

This way we split buff/debuff/resource.
But;
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD buff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD debuff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD resource.

hrothbern

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Lavum wrote: »

What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?

I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.

That is atcually not as nuts as it originally sounds.

You could have
Tank/Heal/DD buffs in one tree
Tank/Heal/DD debuffs in one tree
Resoruce management in another tree.

This way we split buff/debuff/resource.
But;
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD buff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD debuff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD resource.

Nice thoughts

Two factors are I think to be considered as well when we start brainstorming the conceptual structuring of the CP tree:

1. We still have the one stack meta, piling up Magicka pool AND Spell Damage increases both the DPS as the self-HPS as the longburst Resource sustain. The same with Stamina & Weapon Damage.If I remember correctly Wrobel stated 3 ESO lives ago that he wanted to tackle that. It could be that this is aimed for at the next DLC. It could be that this is for example adressed by basing DPS only on Spell/Weapon Damage and HPS only on the Stat pool. (When I saw the 5 pc bonus of the Pelinal's Aptitude set, this possible (and speculative) scenario popped up in my mind: Pelinal's Aptitude would then become a true Hybrid DPS set).
   But regardless what the ESO team comes up with. IF they are still going to adress this stacking DPS/selfHPS meta, it will influence where the balance comes of the CP tree.
2. The current CP tree has a dynamic unbalance over time. Stars increasing Damage output can be countered 1:1 with stars that decrease incoming Damage. But countering the nature of the Damage increase star needs TWO stars. For example, the attacker just needs to invest in ONE star to increase his Magicka or Stamina Damage, but the defender needs to invest in TWO stars, because the attacker could be either Magicka or Stamina based. So in the early phase of the CP tree, the attacker has a clear advantage. Later on, when the cap for available CP's is raised, the defenders will catch up while there are for the attackers only left the lesser beneficial stars and the defender has still high value stars to invest in.
   (Something that could for example be countered to cap not only the total amount of CP's available, but to cap also the CP's available for 1 star... say 50 or so, 10% of the total cap)
   (BTW, making the curves a little bit more curved, could be added to these caps and would not only be beneficial in dampening this dynamic unbalance over time effect, but would also make it more fun to find out what the best distribution is for various kinds of builds)

Lavum

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Lavum wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...

Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .

I don't, but if they keep nerfing our options, there is not much left.
The fact that this patch was supposed to encourage more people into tanks make it even more ironic...

Sorry, i missed your response.

I would agree, the one thing I love about tanking is that we don't have to use a cookie cutter build. as of now we are not forced into having X set-up. However this new DLC has me wondering.

hrothbern

Lavum wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Lavum wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

And maybe people don't want to run the same copy pasta builds...

Most ppl do not run a cookie cutter build, similar maybe. Most tanks I know and talk to take a build that they like and go from there. If you are doing a copy/paste build i encourage you to change it up a bit till it that suits you .

I don't, but if they keep nerfing our options, there is not much left.
The fact that this patch was supposed to encourage more people into tanks make it even more ironic...

Sorry, i missed your response.

I would agree, the one thing I love about tanking is that we don't have to use a cookie cutter build. as of now we are not forced into having X set-up. However this new DLC has me wondering.

The rather significant cost increase of all abilities, together with moving Shield Expert to "The Lady" in the Thief's constellation does hurt.
Tanks are by this combo again squeezed in sustain.
And THAT decreases the viabilty to use a wider range of interesting and cool sets !

And I do agree, also as a Tank, purely from system consistency, that a Block cost saving star does belong in the Thief in the current super structure/logic of the CP tree.

However, I would have expected, that moving the Shield Expert from a Damage mitigation constellation to the sustain constellation, as a "new fact", would have been accompanied by a further small buff in Constitution.

Dubhliam

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Lavum wrote: »

What was wrong with the Red tree being Defense/Tanking, Green being Sustain, and Blue being DPS?

I personally think the CP system is flawed and needs to have trade offs. This isn't exactly what I was thinking bit maybe they are heading in the right direction. As it is now, you can out all points into increasing defenses, sustain, and damage with no real trade offs, unless you are going some niche build. My main complaint is the sustain and damage. These should be in the same trees. You either do a lot of damage or have great sustain, shouldn't have both at suck high levels.

That is atcually not as nuts as it originally sounds.

You could have
Tank/Heal/DD buffs in one tree
Tank/Heal/DD debuffs in one tree
Resoruce management in another tree.

This way we split buff/debuff/resource.
But;
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD buff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD debuff
you have to choose beetween Tank,heal OR DD resource.

Since they moved block cost to the Shadow, tanks that switch from tank to dps on a regular basis are screwed anyway.

So the only logical solution is something on the lines that you are proposing.

My suggestion would be to rework Champion trees in a major way. Make them so that each point (blue, red, green) can be invested to make each role more effective.

Example:
THE MAGE
The Apprentice - no changes
The Atronach - becomes former The Lady; Hardy, Ele Defender, LA focus, Thick Skinned
10 CP - Spell Absorption (Lady)
30 CP - Resilient (Lady)
75 CP - Riposte (Atronarch)
120 CP - Unchained (Lady)
The Ritual - no changes

THE WARRIOR
The Steed - becomes former The Shadow; Elusive, Shade, Tumbling, Befoul
10 CP - Merchant Favored (Shadow)
30 CP - Phase (Steed)
75 CP - Critical Leech (Lady)
120 CP - War Mount (Tower)
The Lady - becomes former The Tower; Warlord, Magician, Sprinter, Bashing Focus
10 CP - Ensnare (Tower)
30 CP - Inspiration Boost (Tower)
75 CP - Mara's Gift (Tower)
120 CP - Tactician (Atronarch)
The Lord - no changes

THE THIEF
The Tower - becomes former The Steed; Resistant, MA Focus, Spell Shield, Block Expertise
10 CP - Invigorating Bash (Steed)
30 CP - Retaliation (Atronarch)
75 CP - Shield Expert (Steed)
120 CP - Reinforced (Steed)
The Lover - no changes
The Shadow - becomes former The Atronach; Melee Weapon Expert. Bow Expert, Staff Expert, Shattering Blows
10 CP - Fortune Seeker (Shadow)
30 CP - Treasure Seeker (Shadow)
75 CP - Butcher (Atronarch)
120 CP - Shadowstrike (Shadow)

As you may have noticed, I rearranges some unlockable passives to fit the theme. War mount got transferred to The Steed, Mara's Gift and Inspiration Boost are now in The Lady, and The Tower became the tanking tree while The Shadow passives are almost intact even after swapping all CP dumping passives.

I think with this (or similar) CP arrangement players could make even more powerful builds for each given role, but those builds would be less powerful overall - meaning they would rely on other group members to do their part in group dungeons.

Also, the only content that would need some adjusting would be vMA - and I guess many people will gladly welcome THAT nerf. Not even those that complete vMA on a regular basis enjoy the "difficulty" of it.

Vangy

..............

So....... Bracing got removed..... Block costs went up...... And now I need to wear sturdy pieces and block cost reduction enchants to be able to block viably...... No im not talking about PVE.... PVE is ez mode as is. In PvP impen>sturdy.... And im not going to use BLOCK COST REDUCTION on jewellery.... Cos id be at 2k weapon power which isnt going to kill an NPC in cyrodill.. at least not in under 2 minutes...

This is a slap in the face to any tanky builds running in cyro lol.... Block is already so bad comapred to just using shuffle dodge roll monkey build... Seriously people wonder why every stam build runs shuffle and uses dodge roll monkey build? THIS IS WHY. Nerf after nerf after nerf.... You litreally have to play a 0 damage build with barely an impen on your gear slots to be able to block more than a few hits and not be at 0 stam...... GG.....

And bracing got removed from heavy armor.... Why the heck would I wear heavy armour now? medium gives me 4% cost reduction and increased weapon power + many more benefits and what the hell does heavy armour give me.... Oooooo about 2% increased healing received and what... 200 weapon/spell power was it? .................. And dont you dare start talking about heavy attacks... Not gona work in PvP lol.

DemonDruaga

A tank thats just blocking and taunting a few things is borring as hell. I already stopped my pve tanking, if it will go further in this direction i will not tank again. That wouldn't be a hard impact on anyone, but i fear more people will do the same and just go dps, because one can actualy use skills and not just press down that block button.

Vangy

I think I need to say more....

Here's a more REALISTIC approach to building a tanky build in PvP...... And more realistic calculations concerning PvP builds that don't frigging run x3 purple block cost reduction.... Like you'd have 2k weapon power with that kind of trashy enchants and be seriously lacking Regen;

LIVE
base cost --> 2160
25% red CP block cost reduc = 2160 * 0.75 = 1620
Fortress + bracing + Defensive. S = 1620 * .42 = 680
Constitution = 680 - 43 = 637

PTS
base block cost went up... = 2160 * 1.108 = 2394 (about 10.8% increase)
25% block cost reduction from theif CP Just no... Im not gona take points out of stam cost reduction.... Rather just run a dodge roll monkey shuffle build.... Also 99% of this game requires my tank to respec into a DPS....
Fortress + defensive stance = 2394 * .56 = 1341
Constitution = 1341 - 163 = 1178....

1178 vs 637... That's a 54% INCREASE in block cost...... FIFTY-FOUR-PERCENT increase to block cost.. Unless I throw all my stam regen (give up every single stam regen for block cost on jewellry + give up 1 impen trait on gear) to achieve current block cost...... I can make a better PvP tanky build on PTS with medium armour and SNB than wear heavy armour.... God Wrobel ... No disrespect but you REALLLLLLLY need to rethink the changes....

So im guessing my stam DK can survive this.. But bye bye mag DKS and mag plars... Better not run SnB with heavy armour or you gona regret it....