Ballgroups cheating ?, a view from inside

Greasytengu

Ball group player: Posts in-depth explanations and guides describing how to do what they do.

Zerglings: Naw, that's too hard. Nerf ploz.

Amottica

Crash427 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

This sounds pretty much like the best ball groups on the PC NA server (eg Dracarys). It takes a lot of work and effort and it isn't easy to run in those groups. The leader has to be incredibly knowledgeable and make quick judgements.

I agree that such a group should easily be able to beat 3x as many pugs. On my faction, several of (the only ) groups that run are just composed of random pugs. There is no designation of role, no build requirements, no instructions , no training. Even worse, most players dont group and are solo.

My question is, doesn't it get old? You are expected to beat pugs. I see ball groups running around inside keeps for 30 minutes, they farm the pugs one by one, focusing their huge 12 man power on 2-4 pugs at a time and wiping them out, then running around some more.

I don't see the point. Why don't ball groups fight other ball groups? Is it really that fun to slaughter random solo pugs who, by your admission, have 10x less stats, healing, etc?

It is not at all like 1v3-- the solo player has only his own buffs and abilities. The ball groups have 10 radiating regens on them, etc etc.

Ballgroups do fight other Ballgroups but will often do it away from everyone else to avoid interference.

It can be a very long epic fight.

Arbiter7070

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Arbiter7070 wrote: »

But nerfing some of the mechanics that makes ball groups so strong (like regen stacking) would be VERY healthy for this game.

Nerfing hot stacking would be the death of pugs. Same kind of thing as when healing was group only.

Gl sieging vs a big defense with 1 or 2 hots on you. It’s easy to overlook or not even notice zerg healers in a siege but the hots are the reason most pugs do not die in about 3 seconds.

It’s statements like this that bring bad changes into the game because zos actually listens to them sometimes…

Think of the bigger picture and not just how to kill ballgroups before writing stuff on a forum that the devs, for whatever reason, use to make changes to the game.

So you're telling me that removing hot stacking would nerf ball groups and hurt PUG zergs? Seems like a win-win to me

Crash427

Amottica wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

This sounds pretty much like the best ball groups on the PC NA server (eg Dracarys). It takes a lot of work and effort and it isn't easy to run in those groups. The leader has to be incredibly knowledgeable and make quick judgements.

I agree that such a group should easily be able to beat 3x as many pugs. On my faction, several of (the only ) groups that run are just composed of random pugs. There is no designation of role, no build requirements, no instructions , no training. Even worse, most players dont group and are solo.

My question is, doesn't it get old? You are expected to beat pugs. I see ball groups running around inside keeps for 30 minutes, they farm the pugs one by one, focusing their huge 12 man power on 2-4 pugs at a time and wiping them out, then running around some more.

I don't see the point. Why don't ball groups fight other ball groups? Is it really that fun to slaughter random solo pugs who, by your admission, have 10x less stats, healing, etc?

It is not at all like 1v3-- the solo player has only his own buffs and abilities. The ball groups have 10 radiating regens on them, etc etc.

Ballgroups do fight other Ballgroups but will often do it away from everyone else to avoid interference.

It can be a very long epic fight.

Or a very long boring stalemate. The ballgroup i used to play with has disbanded now and is waiting for New World but my favorite fights I was ever in were us + our faction stack vs other ballgroups + their faction stack fighting for an objective.

The chaos of the huge battle while having to watch out for specific people was crazy, and lots of fun.

Einstein_

Its Not that we are unkillable, if we fight open field the whole faction we gonna die for sure at some point.

DTStormfox , your comment still just just sounds like: "dont get to good or its unfair"

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I disagree with anyone who thinks they are individually good solo players or duelists.

Some of them are. Some of them aren't. What does it matter?

The fact is none of them are

i guess you are on NA sadly right ?, otherwise i friendly invite you to duell me

but i wrote that text to show what efford we put in and that it isnt just "broken machanics".

Dagoth_Rac

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

If the flags of a keep are flipped, and all breaches are closed, start a 2-minute timer. After 2-minute timer ends, a keep-wide pulse of damage kills all enemy players inside.

So you've never had a long keep battle where the enemy captures the flags, but your alliance pushes back in before they can button up front door and then has to siege down the inner door and push the flags?

Those fights are fun!

I agree. Which is why I said flags need to be flipped and all breaches closed. Perhaps my wording was not understood, but I consider any opening for enemy players to enter a keep a "breach", including doors. So all flags flipped, all doors closed, all wall openings closed, etc. No way for enemy reinforcements to get into the keep. They would need to place new siege outside keep and start again.

At that point, the battle for control of the keep is essentially over.

CharlieFreak

Einstein_ wrote: »

Its Not that we are unkillable, if we fight open field the whole faction we gonna die for sure at some point.

DTStormfox , your comment still just just sounds like: "dont get to good or its unfair"

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I disagree with anyone who thinks they are individually good solo players or duelists.

Some of them are. Some of them aren't. What does it matter?

The fact is none of them are

i guess you are on NA sadly right ?, otherwise i friendly invite you to duell me

but i wrote that text to show what efford we put in and that it isnt just "broken machanics".

I think most people with any pvp experience know you guys are good. And of course you want the recognition of that. And it seems bittersweet to put so much effort into excelling, only to find that no one wants to fight anymore. But that's how it works in MMOs, because everyone is lumped together in one big area. It's not like a counter-strike match or team deathmatch.

Back when I started playing MMOs in Ultima Online (1998) the entire game was a PvP zone. There was no such thing as a PvE area. So you had no choice but to band together and zerg down the organized/better players. If you didn't do this, you couldn't really play at all! In that game, dying meant something. The entire contents of your pack (including equipped items) would drop, and could be looted by anyone. Everyone found this fun, on both sides. (If you want that Medusa Inferno staff, just kill someone who has it!)

In this game, for some reason, if you're in a group of more than 5 people, you'll get hate messages about "stupid trash zerglings". This word gets thrown around so frequently, it's silly. This shaming of people for trying to overwhelm a stronger group by sheer numbers adds to the problem - because that is the only solution casual/newer players have against strong groups such as yours. People should be encouraged to zerg. MMOs are designed for it. If you don't want that, then you have Battlegrounds for a fair fight 4v4v4.

Real world war works like this too, hmm? Or does one country say "OK you send 5 of your best guys and we'll send 5 of ours and...."

Every morning playing DC in Ravenwatch, the entire map would be yellow. And yet no one wanted to group to take back keeps. You'd have 5 or 6 groups of 2-4 people doing their thing and if someone suggested we work together and try to hit the same keeps, immediately the word zergling would start getting thrown around. As if this is the worst possible shame that a player can face in this game, to be called a zergling. And of course these little groups would get smashed by yellow the minute they lit up a keep, and they'd complain that yellow is a trash zerg alliance and they'd leave the campaign and go PvE for awhile.

auz

Can't believe the argument against ball groups boils down to "don't do it because you are too good and other people can't or won't put in the effort to get better, so it is not fair that some people do." Like..... wow. If people are not willing to put in a little effort, do they really deserve to be successful? If you only put in a minimum amount of effort, should you be successful? That whole attitude bothers me. If you don't want to put in any effort, or can't, and other people doing well at the game bothers you so much, stick to questing. Zos releases new stuff for you to do every few months.

fred4

I am pretty torn on this topic. As a solo or duo player I experience exactly the same dynamics. If you know you're far better than an opposing player, then attacking them makes you a bully. It just does and, therefore, part of me is with the "haters" in this thread. On the other hand my own behavior is, realistically, all over the map. Immediate attack upon seeing a player is often the safest course of action unless you play a nightblade. Your assessment of how a fight will go can change very quickly. Is your target really that much of a noob? Will players you see at a distance get involved? Is there someone behind you? Is there a hidden nightblade? And so on. Sometimes you also just want to build test or you may be after your target's Tel Var. Some of the same considerations, I imagine, apply to groups taking a keep. The more efficiently that's done, the less risk there is the opposing faction turns up in numbers before the keep is taken.

There is a part of me that prefers to play the map. The outcome of the war really does not matter to me as a solo player, but I do role play my faction. My friend list does not have much of a bearing on who I attack, much to the chagrin of one former friend. I am not my character and my character has an alliance. Following game objectives gives you a purpose that's hard to argue with.

MadeInVN

I'm just gonna touch on one point that many people brought up about how ball groups who run around keeps farming players with scrolls are toxic for the game.

In a sense yes, but only if you care about winning points. The truth is, it doesn't really matter. Cyrodiil is a massive sandbox. Sure there are objectives that players can do, but at the end of the day the rewards are so insignificant there is really no point to do objectives other than for bragging rights. But for people like ball groups, they don't care. It's all about the fight, and they will do anything it takes to get that.

So let's use that scroll example. Ball groups can return the scroll to the base, but why would they do that? There is no reason for them to return the scroll because the fight will end the moment they put that scroll in their home keep. It's all about prolonging the fight.

As for ball groups that intentionally "troll" by dumping scrolls in the middle of a river, well personally I don't see anything wrong with it because in my eyes, once I took that scroll it's mine for an hour. If my group holds it and successfully defends it from the opposite faction's onslaught, then we can do whatever we want with the scroll. You want to do objectives? Start your own group and take that scroll. It's that simple.

Amerises

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

I'd have to agree with most of what you said. I do feel bad when I totally demolish someone in 2 seconds right after they come out of their keep/spawn, and I know that doesn't motivate them to "get gud" but to not PvP. And if I meet another solo person who knows what they are doing, it can be a 4 to 5 minutes fight before either of us get a burst off at the exact right moment (while opponents resources are down). Even 2v1 can last a long time until another player shows up.

It's strange because they're ideas of making the players on the floor rise (by giving more defense to live longer), litterally only makes skilled players defenses so high while nerfing their damage, that everyone suffers.

Throw in hrothgar and convergence, and even more people don't want to play.

I dunno, its sad because I love the game, but as soon as another game catches my eye, I'll be gone.

NotTaylorSwift

DTStormfox wrote: »

As such, the fun experience of the minority is at the expense of the fun that the majority (weaker players) experiences.

Pls just stop with this “it’s at the expense of other’s fun” stuff. There are many tools in the game now to counter ballgroups but people can’t be bothered to use them… if you are a casual player you are going to get beat time and time again by hardcore players. This is the same in every game ever. If you don’t like dying then either invest time to get better or dont pvp. Or if you don’t have the time, then that’s too bad. You can’t destroy aspects of the game just to make sure the casual players are ‘having fun’ by not dying.

All mmos are like this. If you put in more time and effort you get more out of it. Simple. If you don’t have time then there are still plenty of things to do in the game that are rewarding. You might get steamrolled by a ballgroup for 2h in the evening and then they log off and you can go back to your casual undisturbed ‘pvp’.

It literally makes 0 sense. This argument which people throw around a lot is basically just saying that getting beat in pvp ruins the fun… ? And then people say “ye but we have no chance”… yes people do but like I said, most dont want to put the effort in.

Also many people that play with the group I am in have full time jobs. It is wrong to imply that our players don’t work or have lives outside of eso. That’s not the case.

Sluggy

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

But I want to show here that this is deserved and what we are investing to get to a point where we are

I'm not a hater or anything like this but I don't feel to much love for ballgroups for one reason. I understand all the hard work and training, but I don't admire it. Why? Just imagine basketball court in residental area of any city. Local kids love to play there basketball for fun, relax after school. And then some group organise, train hard, take lessons from NBA players, etc to achieve impossible levels compared to casual, amateur fun. And what they do next? Do they play only with other professionals? No, they randomly show up, take the ball and trash local kids for 30 minutes without break and then leave. Well done, you trashed casuals who just wanted to play in "normal circumstances" just for own satisfactions and don't give any [snip] about other people enjoyment.

You even almost admited it in your post. You just don't organize to hangout with some friends and casualy play. You sacrafice so much time with every detail, every little trait to be perfect in trashing PUGs, when you perfectly know that they just don't have a chance with so high level of preparation. For me so much of devotion to play 90% against non-organised pugs is just sad and now when I know how much it costs you to be there - I have even less respect for you than before I pro players who train hard to be pros in pros leagues against other pros.

I am reading a lot forum post about how OP and broken ballgroups are, and yes thats kinda true

[snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Except, there is only one court in the whole city. So..... where else are they going to play?

PhoenixGrey

Theignson wrote: »

This sounds pretty much like the best ball groups on the PC NA server (eg Dracarys). It takes a lot of work and effort and it isn't easy to run in those groups. The leader has to be incredibly knowledgeable and make quick judgements.

I agree that such a group should easily be able to beat 3x as many pugs. On my faction, several of (the only ) groups that run are just composed of random pugs. There is no designation of role, no build requirements, no instructions , no training. Even worse, most players dont group and are solo.

My question is, doesn't it get old? You are expected to beat pugs. I see ball groups running around inside keeps for 30 minutes, they farm the pugs one by one, focusing their huge 12 man power on 2-4 pugs at a time and wiping them out, then running around some more.

I don't see the point. Why don't ball groups fight other ball groups? Is it really that fun to slaughter random solo pugs who, by your admission, have 10x less stats, healing, etc?

It is not at all like 1v3-- the solo player has only his own buffs and abilities. The ball groups have 10 radiating regens on them, etc etc.

If the ball groups didnt have 10 radiating regens on them a half decent solo player would wipe them. Done this multiple times during some of the cyrodil tests. Ball groups farm pugs as its probably as good as it can get for them

EF321

So Plaguebreak is actually doing something to balls, while not affecting everyone else much (except for wardens maybe)?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

EF321 wrote: »

So Plaguebreak is actually doing something to balls, while not affecting everyone else much (except for wardens maybe)?

Yes it's lowering build diversity and playstyle options, that's about it though.

CharlieFreak

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

As such, the fun experience of the minority is at the expense of the fun that the majority (weaker players) experiences.

It literally makes 0 sense. This argument which people throw around a lot is basically just saying that getting beat in pvp ruins the fun… ? And then people say “ye but we have no chance”… yes people do but like I said, most dont want to put the effort in.

You're setting up a bit of a strawman there. I don't think anyone's saying that 'getting beat ruins the fun'. What they're saying is: don't be surprised when you have no one to fight anymore.

You say it's like this in all MMOs. I respectfully disagree, and I've played about a dozen of them. Obviously, there are a lot of things at play here. One that I find interesting is the zerg shaming. Organized groups who get steamrolled by a zerg will often whine about"no-skill crap zerglings!!" or even taunt and mock people for trying to win with superior numbers. Zerging should be encouraged in MMOs, not shamed. That's what MMOs are designed for. Throw a bunch of people in a big zone, with all skill levels and people will (and should) use superior numbers to gain the upper hand. Open world mmo pvp is NOT battlegrounds with fair teams where you can fight against other premades with equal numbers.

Personally I think people should zerg up and hunt ball groups. Ignore objectives and simply hunt and steamroll ball groups over and over until they learn how to play in a social environment. I think you'd also become discouraged and 'get it' if every single night you try to leave your base and 150 players are waiting for you to just kill you over and over. I'd be willing to bet you'll be on the forums complaining that they are ruining your fun? That losing 100% of the time with no hope of a win isn't fun?

I've played several MMOs that have NO pve areas. I personally prefer this model, where pvp is allowed in all areas, and you MUST band together to survive. Sometimes you'll have 20 newbs chasing a single elite player to protect their farming spot or whatever and it's FUN for both sides. Eventually you become that vet player and have fun from the other perspective.

However you must show restraint and keep it fun for all, because in those games cheeseball groups/players will find life difficult because people will hunt them when they are alone and not with their group, camp their house, and grief them hardcore. There's nothing like this in ESO. You can be as much of a *** as you want without any repercussions. Full antisocial adolescent rage at its worst.

Sorry for the longwinded post.

NotTaylorSwift

CharlieFreak wrote: »

.

You say it's like this in all MMOs. I respectfully disagree, and I've played about a dozen of them. Obviously, there are a lot of things at play here. One that I find interesting is the zerg shaming. Organized groups who get steamrolled by a zerg will often whine about"no-skill crap zerglings!!" or even taunt and mock people for trying to win with superior numbers. Zerging should be encouraged in MMOs, not shamed. That's what MMOs are designed for. Throw a bunch of people in a big zone, with all skill levels and people will (and should) use superior numbers to gain the upper hand. Open world mmo pvp is NOT battlegrounds with fair teams where you can fight against other premades with equal numbers.

Zerging is not ‘not encouraged’. Zos did many things patch after patch to buff zergs. The ‘zerg shaming’ comes from the players. Who cares what another player that you don’t know and never speak to thinks about your play style?

Only now zergs are hurting from these new sets. But that’s down to bad pvp developing. In the past zerging has been ‘encouraged’ in a way.

And how is ballgrouping ‘antisocial adolescent rage’ ??? It is a form of end game pvp that some people have chosen to pursue. Do you think the same about optimised trial groups? The only difference here is that ballgrouping is against other players. And because you die and can’t kill us, you think it’s not fair. This kind of mentality needs to stay out of pvp…

You don’t know anyone personally in any of these groups so comments like that are not fair and kind of just rude tbh.

WaywardArgonian

I don't like ballgroups but I think there's a bit of a nuanced view to it. Ultimately a lot of their kills do come from lag but that's ultimately the responsibility of the developer rather than the player using the tools the developers gave to them.

Even with the performance issues, though, I think there's a lot that you can do as a solo or pug player to not be farmed by ballgroups. When I see a ballgroup enter a keep and I am solo, I mostly just leave as there is little I can do other than hit them and get stuck in combat for 30 minutes. Even if I managed to get a bomb off in that laggy environment, at the most it just gets their health down a bit, and an uncoordinated group chasing them around is not going to finish the job. So the best I can do is to not turn into free AP. I feel like if more people did that, or at least had the sense to get out of the way on time, the classic ballgroup playstyle would become a lot less lucrative, and it would at least force those players to come up with other things.

It's been said plenty that the only ones who enjoy fighting ballgroups are other ballgroups, which I think is largely true. In that sense it does get old fast when you try to avoid them but they just turn up at every siege, turning a fun battle into another snorefest. So when some ballgroups say 'if you don't like to fight us just go fight somewhere else' it doesn't always hold up, as Cyrodiil typically only has a few hotspots of action, and with multiple ballgroups running around, your choice is often to either suffer their presence or log off. To me it's not about whether ballgroups 'deserve' to be OP--I don't feel entitled to be able to wipe a raid group of 12 by myself--it's more that their presence is often to the detriment of anyone who's not in a ballgroup. Is it their responsibility to make sure others have fun? No, but I would grow tired of it quickly.

As for the 'ballgroups play like that because they suck 1v1'; this is simply not true. They're just as varied as any group of players in Cyrodiil. I know that Project Nova players are typically strong regardless of their numbers (though they should really knock it off with the hatewhispers when they do get touched), but I've also run into ballgroupers in their solo gear who melted like snow on a hot summer day. Ultimately it does not matter. When I play a bomber, I'm not gonna win an epic open-field 1v1, nor do I need to, because it's not the point of my playstyle. The same applies to ballgroups.

fred4

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

Huh. This is interesting. I agree basically with all that you're saying, however I have watched tight ballgroups do their thing. They're like a flock of raptors and they're only dangerous when flocking your way. I think a noob is more likely to be picked off in a disorganised fight or by a lone nightblade. The ballgroup will get them too, but you can stand openly in the courtyard of a keep and watch them do their thing. There won't be a player that splits off immediately to assassinate you. I don't think I would lay the death of a new player at the feet of ballgroups specifically.

NeillMcAttack

Well, let’s be fair, it takes some planning, and optimizing makes you very strong for sure. But once that is achieved, it’s really EZ mode! You use AOE skills exclusively, meaning you don’t even need to target anything, snow threaders means you can always stick tight, heal stacks make it borderline impossible to burst, all the buffs in the game make you insanely tanky, and all the lag means it is impossible for anyone to time and coordinate a play against you. The raid lead is really the only one that has to make much of an effort.

It’s no surprise that since U25 and snow threaders, that ball grps became much stronger. The lag means it’s harder to land skills against you whereas all you smart healing and AOE spam means that a few skills not going off is no big deal really. Oh, and max ulti gen, plus necro ults also mean dying isn’t even a big deal anymore.

I do find it interesting that these sets aren’t bothering you, but not surprising, because as you say, only co-ordination stands a chance, and in Cyro… that’s almost impossible due to performance.

Joy_Division

CharlieFreak wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

As such, the fun experience of the minority is at the expense of the fun that the majority (weaker players) experiences.

It literally makes 0 sense. This argument which people throw around a lot is basically just saying that getting beat in pvp ruins the fun… ? And then people say “ye but we have no chance”… yes people do but like I said, most dont want to put the effort in.

You're setting up a bit of a strawman there. I don't think anyone's saying that 'getting beat ruins the fun'. What they're saying is: don't be surprised when you have no one to fight anymore.

You say it's like this in all MMOs. I respectfully disagree, and I've played about a dozen of them. Obviously, there are a lot of things at play here. One that I find interesting is the zerg shaming. Organized groups who get steamrolled by a zerg will often whine about"no-skill crap zerglings!!" or even taunt and mock people for trying to win with superior numbers. Zerging should be encouraged in MMOs, not shamed. That's what MMOs are designed for. Throw a bunch of people in a big zone, with all skill levels and people will (and should) use superior numbers to gain the upper hand. Open world mmo pvp is NOT battlegrounds with fair teams where you can fight against other premades with equal numbers.

Personally I think people should zerg up and hunt ball groups. Ignore objectives and simply hunt and steamroll ball groups over and over until they learn how to play in a social environment. I think you'd also become discouraged and 'get it' if every single night you try to leave your base and 150 players are waiting for you to just kill you over and over. I'd be willing to bet you'll be on the forums complaining that they are ruining your fun? That losing 100% of the time with no hope of a win isn't fun?

I've played several MMOs that have NO pve areas. I personally prefer this model, where pvp is allowed in all areas, and you MUST band together to survive. Sometimes you'll have 20 newbs chasing a single elite player to protect their farming spot or whatever and it's FUN for both sides. Eventually you become that vet player and have fun from the other perspective.

However you must show restraint and keep it fun for all, because in those games cheeseball groups/players will find life difficult because people will hunt them when they are alone and not with their group, camp their house, and grief them hardcore. There's nothing like this in ESO. You can be as much of a *** as you want without any repercussions. Full antisocial adolescent rage at its worst.

Sorry for the longwinded post.

You're kind of all over the place here.

You say MMOs should encourage zerging as a survival mechanism, yet suggest that people who do so and become especially proficient at it need to "get it" as their "cheeseball" groups are akin to antisocial adolescent rage and need to be griefed hardcore.

CharlieFreak

Joy_Division. I'm referring to cheesy tactics used to farm casual players or pugs. An example would be (in a full pvp mmo): a veteran player hanging out at the new player spawn area and killing them over and over while they struggle to kill a rat. If they complain on the forums, then I could reply that I've worked hard to get good, and should be allowed to kill them all day long. Why should I be penalized for being good? That's antisocial teenage rage or black and white thinking, or elitism, or whatever psychology you want to use to explain why people do this and rationalize it.

I think there is no question that some ball groups are engaging in something akin to this and not simply looking for good fights with equally skilled teams.

During this current event in IC, I've spend most of my days there. If you've been playing there this week you'll see tons of scared pvp virgins standing atop the spawns, shooting down on a small group of skilled pvpers. I have been grouping them, at times, and encouraging them that we can win with superior numbers. "Oh but I can't help, I'm in pve gear and keep getting ganked!'. And I just tell them 'who cares. Just do your best and have fun!' We're gonna start in this district and move clockwise and take back every district. We're locked out and they have one bar! Let's get 'em! Share the dailies and we'll do them as we circle around. We'll kill the bosses etc. Stick together, it's just 4 good pvpers who came to this campaign to farm you. Don't worry we can do it.

It's that sort of thing that I'm encouraging. If you don't like ball groups, punish them in whatever way you can.

Feaky

BuildMan wrote: »

I don't mind ball groups until the lag kicks in. I'm just looking for interesting fights, win or lose. But when you have a slide show fight with 100 effects going off and people crashing it gets old.

Exactly, this is the main issue for me with ball groups. I rarely lag, but when 50' of a ball group, nothing seems to work. I appreciate the OP starting this discussion, but agree with most of the counter arguments being made. Surprisingly, no mention of tools like RdK and the private equivalents to it. I downloaded RdK and played around with it and am bewildered how stuff like that is even allowed in ESO. At least everyone has access to it, but still, geez.

jerj6925

Einstein_ wrote: »

Hallo, I am a current officer in the ballgroup guild Project Nova (PC/EU). I am reading a lot forum post about how OP and broken ballgroups are, and yes thats kinda true.
But I want to show here that this is deserved and what we are investing to get to a point where we are. Maybe some pll will understand better after reading this, even tho i am sure there will be still a lot of ball hater comments aswell. Nevertheless I want to show you a few points.

Optimization: We have a specific setup with 12 roles, where every role is excatly defined. We take hours every patch to greate a setup which is as much optimized as possible, and this ofc changes if meta changes or we disscover new stuff. Every role is optimized and defined in Skills/glyphs/traits/staats/munuds...., even more strict than most trial groups on a GS lvl.

The raid leader exactly knows that on role X is a certaint skill, and the person playing role X knows in which situations he needs to use that skill to help the whole group.
No random or even guild member will join our group on some random solo setup which does not fit into the group. This helps us to have all the important buffs/sets in our group which makes us strong (PA, minor/major courage, minor/major sorcery, ect), pretty similar to trial groups. This leads to stats which no solo build can ever achive (for example on a DD: 10k WD/110% crit muliplier/Acuity/15k Pen/40k HP/enugh rec).

Training: We play frequently together and know the behaviour of others and the raid leader. Everybody knows whats important for the group to function and how the mechanics work, it took us months to get to this point. Alot ppl say every ballgroup player is a noob solo, thats acually not true alot of our members are pretty good duelists and solo players. If you dont belive me, I encurage anybody to come to Alikre and fight some of us. I am there pretty often (not saying I'll win vs everyone :> ).

ESO-LOGS: we logg and make videos of every raid and analyse them afterwards, so we can see exactly where we need to improve. For example if our DK only achived 60% uptime on the minor brutality buff we can see that and improve, or if somebody was in general just not doing what we expect from that role we can see that and improve.
In videos we can see our behaviour in certain situations and improve on positioning and strategy for example.

Regading new sets: The new anti purge set took us 1 raid to understand and to counter. So thats not a big proplem for us, even tho we for sure took a nerf from it (since we cant purge anymore).
Hrothgars chill does nothing to us, since we anyway get stuned on CD if you fight huge numbers.
Dark Convergenz is just anoying. And ofc optimized groups can use this any set more optimal then the average player in zerg.
Are this sets killing us ? Not really..

can you kill us ?: YES, but not with some uncordinated pew pew.I am sure with a group of 3+ ppl on a good setup you can kill us. But you need to understand when the right moment is and your dmg needs to be cordinated.

Résumé : An optimized group with a lot training will always beat the double or tripple amount of enemys, and in my opinion it should be like this. A good solo player can win a 1v3 against not experianced players, why shouldnt a group be able to win 12v36 ? In general this game is designed to be a group content, you also cant go with 12 craglorn randoms in vSS and expect GS.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

BTW: we also looking for new experianced and deticated players, you can contanct me ig.

I have been playing MMO’s going back as far as Meridian 59 back in 1996, one thing I have learned is the more elitist you allow players to be in a game the larger of a negative effect you have on the over all general health of the game meaning it drives a larger portion of players away every time.

I am not implying that Einstein_ is a bad person and its clear he and his fellow players are extremely passionate about what they do but this is a video game to most who play it passively and sadly ZOS does not give Einstein_ and his team an avenue for their level of play style. What I mean is Einstein and his team he runs is like a major league baseball, basketball or football team (and he explains this talking about how they record and review data and every person must be exactly just so ...) and they play against a high school team or they enlist their team to play against community sporting events made up of teams of neighborhood friends and family just looking to have some fun on the weekends playing a game (Causal players will always significantly out number professional players). Honestly where is the fun in a Pro sports team playing against community sports teams… unless you have an ego issue.

Here is a real-world example, I used to enjoy paint ball years ago and there was a place we used to go that had a Pro team (the business owner). They had tons of business on the weekends up until they did something stupid, they started putting their pro team against all the causal players on the weekend. Here was a team where each player was spending hundreds and into the range of thousands on all their gear. Hands free communication, guns with an insane rate of fire playing against people who were either renting gear to play or paid for just the common equipment, long story short over the next 9 months they lost a majority of their business because most were not enjoying having their ass handed to them in record time against a Pro team. Even when they split their pro team up in the end it was always the pro players enjoying them selves and everyone else wondering why they were there.

Perhaps ZOS should implement some kind of 12-man premade battle grounds group only for these pro teams or these ball teams should play in IC, but I don’t see that happening as in this game these pro teams tend to avoid each other regardless of what they say and enjoy going after the easy kills. Anyone recall when Microsoft first came out with their Xbox and when you made a profile you selected what kind of player you were so you would be matched up against like player? Anyone want to be honest and say why they got rid of those classification? Hard core players didn’t have a large enough player pool and complained about that, then hard core players would reclassify them selves as casual causing frustration in causal player groups and Microsoft well they just wanted to collect money from everyone so.. get rid of the classification so you don’t have to deal with it.

I know some one will post the argument if some one is willing to invest all this time in getting as good as they are they deserve to win (and I agree but not this this level) or claiming I just want to make the game skill less and thiat would be a sill claim.

CharlieFreak

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

.

You say it's like this in all MMOs. I respectfully disagree, and I've played about a dozen of them. Obviously, there are a lot of things at play here. One that I find interesting is the zerg shaming. Organized groups who get steamrolled by a zerg will often whine about"no-skill crap zerglings!!" or even taunt and mock people for trying to win with superior numbers. Zerging should be encouraged in MMOs, not shamed. That's what MMOs are designed for. Throw a bunch of people in a big zone, with all skill levels and people will (and should) use superior numbers to gain the upper hand. Open world mmo pvp is NOT battlegrounds with fair teams where you can fight against other premades with equal numbers.

Zerging is not ‘not encouraged’. Zos did many things patch after patch to buff zergs. The ‘zerg shaming’ comes from the players. Who cares what another player that you don’t know and never speak to thinks about your play style?

Only now zergs are hurting from these new sets. But that’s down to bad pvp developing. In the past zerging has been ‘encouraged’ in a way.

And how is ballgrouping ‘antisocial adolescent rage’ ??? It is a form of end game pvp that some people have chosen to pursue. Do you think the same about optimised trial groups? The only difference here is that ballgrouping is against other players. And because you die and can’t kill us, you think it’s not fair. This kind of mentality needs to stay out of pvp…

You don’t know anyone personally in any of these groups so comments like that are not fair and kind of just rude tbh.

No I don't feel that way at all. I am as hardcore as it gets for pvp. This is the first pve-centric mmo I've ever played. I love this game. I think it's amazingly well done.

In every MMO I've played there is always this 'problem' of what to do about elite groups who just dominate in a way that is discouraging to others. I have played in these groups and understand your viewpoint. But I must say that I was always the 'softie' in the group who would urge restraint.

Honestly I could care less about dying. I see it as the only way to improve my own game. If you ever meet me out there solo/duo (which is the playstyle I prefer now) you'll find that I will always send you a 'gf' if you win. If you really crush me, I'll often ask about your build or compliment you on your superior skills. I try to be a good sport that way.

The only time I get salty is when someone joins the fight, contributes almost nothing to killing me and then teabags me. Even then I'll send him a simple tell like "why are you bagging me lol?"

Joy_Division

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Joy_Division. I'm referring to cheesy tactics used to farm casual players or pugs. An example would be (in a full pvp mmo): a veteran player hanging out at the new player spawn area and killing them over and over while they struggle to kill a rat. If they complain on the forums, then I could reply that I've worked hard to get good, and should be allowed to kill them all day long. Why should I be penalized for being good? That's antisocial teenage rage or black and white thinking, or elitism, or whatever psychology you want to use to explain why people do this and rationalize it.

I think there is no question that some ball groups are engaging in something akin to this and not simply looking for good fights with equally skilled teams.

During this current event in IC, I've spend most of my days there. If you've been playing there this week you'll see tons of scared pvp virgins standing atop the spawns, shooting down on a small group of skilled pvpers. I have been grouping them, at times, and encouraging them that we can win with superior numbers. "Oh but I can't help, I'm in pve gear and keep getting ganked!'. And I just tell them 'who cares. Just do your best and have fun!' We're gonna start in this district and move clockwise and take back every district. We're locked out and they have one bar! Let's get 'em! Share the dailies and we'll do them as we circle around. We'll kill the bosses etc. Stick together, it's just 4 good pvpers who came to this campaign to farm you. Don't worry we can do it.

It's that sort of thing that I'm encouraging. If you don't like ball groups, punish them in whatever way you can.

And so ball groups are supposed to intentionally use less effective tactics that are deemed not "cheesy" even though you advocate that those people fighting against ball groups are too punish them in "whatever way you can," which I take it to use the most effective and "cheesiest" stuff against them? Umm, no.

Cyrodiil is not a new player spawn area. It's a zone players specifically have to Q in for and many of the solo players who do so are top notch that can by themselves potentially wipe a ballgroup because they do exactly what you advocate: do whatever it takes. All these posts bemoaning the bullying behavior of these groups portray every single player who isn't in a ball group is some scrub who has 4 kids, arthritis, or some other perfectly justifiable excuse other than their own ego, intransigence, or laziness to explain why they just aren't very good. And that it's somehow griefing if entire groups somehow don;t go out of their way not to target these specific people among a mob of 40 that's holding back nothing.

Ask anyone who is even slightly objective that has ran in an organized group and they'll all say the same thing: most of the wipes and losses come because just a few members of the group did not take the opposition seriously or underestimated the threat and got themselves killed. Behind the PuGiest of PuGs is an experienced VD bomber or expert ganker that can set in motions events that quickly lead to a wipe. That's the reality of Cyrodiil, which is a competitive environment that people willingly sign up for and take oh so much relish when they win, whether it's posting youtube videos, bragging on these forums, "exposing" people in Discord. It's competition. Try your best. It's fine.

It's fine to encourage and try and organize people who are insecure about their PvP skills. Cyrodiil is not an IC event filled with with inexperienced PvE players looking for achievements.

MadeInVN

All of this could have been avoided if ZOS had dedicated more resources to make an actual ranked GvG system

CharlieFreak

Joy_Division wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Joy_Division. I'm referring to cheesy tactics used to farm casual players or pugs. An example would be (in a full pvp mmo): a veteran player hanging out at the new player spawn area and killing them over and over while they struggle to kill a rat. If they complain on the forums, then I could reply that I've worked hard to get good, and should be allowed to kill them all day long. Why should I be penalized for being good? That's antisocial teenage rage or black and white thinking, or elitism, or whatever psychology you want to use to explain why people do this and rationalize it.

I think there is no question that some ball groups are engaging in something akin to this and not simply looking for good fights with equally skilled teams.

During this current event in IC, I've spend most of my days there. If you've been playing there this week you'll see tons of scared pvp virgins standing atop the spawns, shooting down on a small group of skilled pvpers. I have been grouping them, at times, and encouraging them that we can win with superior numbers. "Oh but I can't help, I'm in pve gear and keep getting ganked!'. And I just tell them 'who cares. Just do your best and have fun!' We're gonna start in this district and move clockwise and take back every district. We're locked out and they have one bar! Let's get 'em! Share the dailies and we'll do them as we circle around. We'll kill the bosses etc. Stick together, it's just 4 good pvpers who came to this campaign to farm you. Don't worry we can do it.

It's that sort of thing that I'm encouraging. If you don't like ball groups, punish them in whatever way you can.

And so ball groups are supposed to intentionally use less effective tactics that are deemed not "cheesy" even though you advocate that those people fighting against ball groups are too punish them in "whatever way you can," which I take it to use the most effective and "cheesiest" stuff against them? Umm, no.

Cyrodiil is not a new player spawn area. It's a zone players specifically have to Q in for and many of the solo players who do so are top notch that can by themselves potentially wipe a ballgroup because they do exactly what you advocate: do whatever it takes. All these posts bemoaning the bullying behavior of these groups portray every single player who isn't in a ball group is some scrub who has 4 kids, arthritis, or some other perfectly justifiable excuse other than their own ego, intransigence, or laziness to explain why they just aren't very good. And that it's somehow griefing if entire groups somehow don;t go out of their way not to target these specific people among a mob of 40 that's holding back nothing.

Ask anyone who is even slightly objective that has ran in an organized group and they'll all say the same thing: most of the wipes and losses come because just a few members of the group did not take the opposition seriously or underestimated the threat and got themselves killed. Behind the PuGiest of PuGs is an experienced VD bomber or expert ganker that can set in motions events that quickly lead to a wipe. That's the reality of Cyrodiil, which is a competitive environment that people willingly sign up for and take oh so much relish when they win, whether it's posting youtube videos, bragging on these forums, "exposing" people in Discord. It's competition. Try your best. It's fine.

It's fine to encourage and try and organize people who are insecure about their PvP skills. Cyrodiil is not an IC event filled with with inexperienced PvE players looking for achievements.

I agree with you. Clicked agree. I don't want mommy (ZoS) to come in and fix everything to preserve anyone's ego. I don't want you to have to deliberately suck so that some newbs can get some kills. I don't want the game dumbed down to the point that a person who plays 5 hours a week can defeat a person who plays 50 hours a week.

But you gotta admit that this presents a conundrum that many MMOs struggle with?

You can see this in battlegrounds too. Where I'll queue, and get pitted against the same premade every round. Yes they deserve to win. They're good! But the effect is that, invariably, people will say "oh, such and such premade is just farming us, I'm gonna go PvE/Cyro/log instead''. Then possibly, members of that same premade will come to the forums and complain that BGs are dead and the queue times are long and it's all ZoS' fault.

In Warhammer Online. I played in a premade that exclusively did BGs. It got to the point where players would refuse to play when they saw it was us. They'd either leave, or simply stand at their spawn and taunt us, like some sort of protest. I realized later that this wasn't good for the health of the game, but at the time, I took the same position as you.

This game has very solid PvE, so ZoS may not feel that this situation can harm the number of subscriptions in a worrisome way. But this has outright killed games who focus on PvP only. It almost killed Ultima Online, but they saved the day by creating a entire mirror world (Trammel) where PvP was not allowed at all.

Anyway, good points from you.

InvitationNotFound

Feaky wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

I don't mind ball groups until the lag kicks in. I'm just looking for interesting fights, win or lose. But when you have a slide show fight with 100 effects going off and people crashing it gets old.

Exactly, this is the main issue for me with ball groups. I rarely lag, but when 50' of a ball group, nothing seems to work.

50 of a ball group? 50 are a zerg and not a ball group. You have some weird definitions here. But at least you see the issue with zergs and their impact on the server.

Feaky wrote: »

I appreciate the OP starting this discussion, but agree with most of the counter arguments being made. Surprisingly, no mention of tools like RdK and the private equivalents to it. I downloaded RdK and played around with it and am bewildered how stuff like that is even allowed in ESO. At least everyone has access to it, but still, geez.

Why should it be mentioned?
It does not do anything that was forbidden by the game developers. They provide the API and can change that functionality or even remove functions. They haven't done this for years in case of such addons (and they do if something is abused in a way they don't want, as seen in the case of miats).