Trader swap issue - EU server

OsManiaC

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SammiSakura wrote: »

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Well, I don't get it... isn't it pretty simple ? Don't you know how much you've bid, what trader you've got, what you should honestly have paid according to your bid, what should honestly have been returned to you, and what actually got returned to you ?
You know how much you "owe" to ZOS. Keep that, spend the rest however you like. Easy.

I don't know it is serious or not, but I'll answer as it is. I bid 30 spots and take note of it. I dont know how many refunds I get it back, I know how much zos owes me for the legal bids. I don't trust as doing right calculations. gold is waiting in the bank we will see , or maybe I troll craglorn back row with all my three guilds would be good show

SammiSakura

OsManiaC wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SammiSakura wrote: »

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Well, I don't get it... isn't it pretty simple ? Don't you know how much you've bid, what trader you've got, what you should honestly have paid according to your bid, what should honestly have been returned to you, and what actually got returned to you ?
You know how much you "owe" to ZOS. Keep that, spend the rest however you like. Easy.

I don't know it is serious or not, but I'll answer as it is. I bid 30 spots and take note of it. I dont know how many refunds I get it back, I know how much zos owes me for the legal bids. I don't trust as doing right calculations. gold is waiting in the bank we will see , or maybe I troll craglorn back row with all my three guilds would be good show

also, some of us don't actually know which kiosk we won, so we dont know which of our bids was the winning one. i got 7 won mails, and 7 lost, but made 10 bids. it's not really as easy as it seems, or I would be doing just that, trust me xD

anitajoneb17_ESO

OsManiaC wrote: »

I dont know how many refunds I get it back,

How's that ? You don't know how much gold you got back from the refunds... ? Are you kidding me ?

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, some of us don't actually know which kiosk we won

If you don't know which kiosk you won it means that you have no kiosk (or hired one for 10K manually) which in turn means that you need all your bids refunded. (ONCE).

That's another very easy one. If you want to be taken seriously please don't take people for idiots.

OsManiaC

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

I dont know how many refunds I get it back,

How's that ? You don't know how much gold you got back from the refunds... ? Are you kidding me ?

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, some of us don't actually know which kiosk we won

If you don't know which kiosk you won it means that you have no kiosk (or hired one for 10K manually) which in turn means that you need all your bids refunded. (ONCE).

That's another very easy one. If you want to be taken seriously please don't take people for idiots.

I dont take no one as idiot, I am terrible sorry if someone is offended, I get 4x or 5x refunds total of 9 bids. I know which one I won. I know which ones refunded but I cannot say number 3 refunded 3x times and number 7 refunded 4x times.

is that more clear?

marius_buys

And what about guilds that lost income due to their bids being incorrectly awarded in the lag period?

Arrodisia

agegarton wrote: »

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

This is it, exactly. We never got our trader last week, even though we won our bids. I don't want my guilds paying for something they didn't get, or to end with no spots to sell their wares, or to end up with too much gold. It's all just one big worry. A game shouldn't end up stressing players out like this.

Can someone at ZOS please tell us if the problem is solved, and if we can bid without the problems of last week? We'd greatly appreciate that.

Best Regards

Arrodisia

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SammiSakura wrote: »

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Well, I don't get it... isn't it pretty simple ? Don't you know how much you've bid, what trader you've got, what you should honestly have paid according to your bid, what should honestly have been returned to you, and what actually got returned to you ?
You know how much you "owe" to ZOS. Keep that, spend the rest however you like. Easy.

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple, especially if each bid is different. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately won. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

Best Regards

Arrodisia

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

I dont know how many refunds I get it back,

How's that ? You don't know how much gold you got back from the refunds... ? Are you kidding me ?

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, some of us don't actually know which kiosk we won

If you don't know which kiosk you won it means that you have no kiosk (or hired one for 10K manually) which in turn means that you need all your bids refunded. (ONCE).

That's another very easy one. If you want to be taken seriously please don't take people for idiots.

You're being way too harsh on some of the GM's here. They have legitimate concerns. They aren't even remotely taking anyone for idiots. It's insulting that you even suggest such a crazy thing. If you were a GM, you'd know and understand that. Just being in a trade guild doesn't give you that insight. You say you're using common sense in some of your messages, but it's clear from your answers you aren't experienced, informed, or using common sense when it comes to trade guild topics. If so, your common sense would've told you to listen to more experienced people, who are asking ZOS all the right questions. Right now, it just seems like you're just playing the forums all day long instead of the game. Hence, no one can take you seriously.


Best Regards

chess1ukb16_ESO

OsManiaC wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OsManiaC wrote: »

I dont know how many refunds I get it back,

How's that ? You don't know how much gold you got back from the refunds... ? Are you kidding me ?

SammiSakura wrote: »

also, some of us don't actually know which kiosk we won

If you don't know which kiosk you won it means that you have no kiosk (or hired one for 10K manually) which in turn means that you need all your bids refunded. (ONCE).

That's another very easy one. If you want to be taken seriously please don't take people for idiots.

I dont take no one as idiot, I am terrible sorry if someone is offended, I get 4x or 5x refunds total of 9 bids. I know which one I won. I know which ones refunded but I cannot say number 3 refunded 3x times and number 7 refunded 4x times.

is that more clear?

Just to add to what Os is saying it really is NOT clear wtf has happened. I have 5 guilds to have to figure this debacle out in.

Let's give an example (#'s are examples only).

1) First I do not recall how much I had left in the guild bank prior to this happening. I am not nor do I want to be a bookkeeper but from memory, I recall it was less <100m
2) Say I bid 20m in Craglorn and multiples of 15m for the rest of my chain. I am able to read guild history by turning off my addons and it suggests I Hired my Craglorn kiosk 6 times successfully.
3) So assuming that the system removed 20m x 6 times and added back 15m x 6 x number of guilds in my chain

On first glance that seems like what may have happened but I am not 100% sure and the numbers do not tally to give me sufficient confidence even based on reasonable guesses of my starting numbers.

On top of having to balance this crap times 5 Guilds I have to consider what to bid for this upcoming weekend with zero guidance or support from the Developer. Because yes I owe them gold but they also owe ME gold for all those replicated hires too. Do I take into account when they remove gold they will also add it back at the same time and consequently I can bid some of the extra gold I have been given as a bridging loan?

On top of that I know the following:

1) ZoS has a history of not addressing errors/dubious player activity fairly and equitably, almost certainly due to bandwidth and not having clear guidelines for their support staff, leaving some cases as a subjective decision by the Agent handling the case.
2) They have put significant duped gold into the hands of the most sophisticated economy players in the game; Trade GM's.
3) Many Trade GMs are understandably concerned they could be left at a serious disadvantage once ZoS take whatever corrective action they are going to do, so out fear, knowledge of past transgressions going largely unpunished or because they want to gain a massive advantage and think it a risk worth taking,
4) Few if any are naive enough to actually spend the gold but the gold is being moved out of their Guild Banks and into personal banks; other accounts or other less /not effected Guild Banks. I suspect throwaway accounts that cannot so easily be linked to GM's mains via address/CC details are being promoted or already have access to guild banks and making some of these gold transfers to further distance themselves from these gold movements. Just to be clear people who are spending the gold are likely players with access to smaller guilds who have had 10-30m windfalls. A few of these are enough especially with so few operational Trade guilds to cause the price fluctuations seen this week.
5) GM's personal accounts and their guild bank regularly have transactions back and forth because it's very bad practice to leave large amounts of gold in a guild bank to avoid security concerns if others have access and to avoid a blunderous bid which could lose a lot of gold. So they have an alibi of sorts ready to go.
6) I get if this was an individual or small set of cases ZoS could (maybe) figure out what has happened and take corrective action, but on this scale where its hundreds of Guilds and thousands of GM's/officers and with the situation ever-changing as more gold goes in and out of these Guild accounts due to the normal course of business, it feels like those that do nothing and play by the ToS, will be most impacted and those that take a small risk of a temporary ban will or at least could be the biggest winners.

So all I have to go on is a vague statement made in German by Kai that was then translated by a player because no English ZoS representative can be bothered to update us in English.

It's a complete joke and I still have to place bids for my guilds and work in many other guilds in our chain. Thanks, Zos!

Rant over.

anitajoneb17_ESO

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately one. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

No, it doesn't clear it up at all. It IS simple. It doesn't take time. It doesn't take any accounting or maths skills, just simple logic. And you don't need to know which one you legitimately won since you have none. Or if you have one, then you know which one you won.
And don't tell me you don't remember how much you bid. That's something you think of all week.
And don't tell me you run multiple guilds : you don't, you can't. You can only be the GM of ONE guild in ESO. So even if you make decisions for several guilds, there are people around you who know how much you bid, and it is most likely written down somewhere.

No, really, I'm not buying the "I don't know how much is mine and how much I'm supposed to give back to ZOS". Really. No.

It all comes down to :

+ (PLUS)how much I've bid (all together)
- (MINUS) The one amount of the one bid I actually won and have the trader for (that could be zero if you have no trader at all)
- (MINUS) 10K for hiring a trader manually (if you have, else it's zero too)
- (MINUS) how much I've got reimbursed (all together)

Sum all this up : if your grand total is in a plus, ZOS owes you this amount, if your grand total is negative, you owe that money to ZOS.

Easy.

anitajoneb17_ESO

OsManiaC wrote: »

I get 4x or 5x refunds total of 9 bids. I know which one I won. I know which ones refunded but I cannot say number 3 refunded 3x times and number 7 refunded 4x times.

is that more clear?

No. It doesn't matter which bid got refunded how many times. The total of reimbursements matters. See details above.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

@chess1ukb16_ESO

Agree entirely.

And your points 4, 5 and 6 are exactly the reasons a Rollback is the only fair way of dealing with this "duped gold".

We have to go back to a point where it didn't even exist, because now it exists it is (given repeated evidence of ZoS not knowing how to program or use a database properly) almost impossible to accurately track and remove it.


All The Best

Ecstatica

Everyone talking about a rollback, I think we should be more concerned that Sunday is approaching again and as nothing has been addressed, done or changed, surely it's entirely plausible that the exact same thing is going to happen again.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Ecstatica wrote: »

Everyone talking about a rollback, I think we should be more concerned that Sunday is approaching again and as nothing has been addressed, done or changed, surely it's entirely plausible that the exact same thing is going to happen again.

Which is just another reason a rollback makes sense.

If they can't fix the duped gold after one weekend what chance after two?

And now people know what the bug does how many people are setting up "dump accounts" to offload deliberately exploited gold so they can drip feed it into their real accounts and not get caught?

If people think the economy is borked now, after an accidental exploit, imagine how borked it will be when hundreds of players start deliberately exploiting that bug.


All The Best

Nicky33

The "winning" bid wasn't removed 6x times from the guild bank. As the winning bid was placed upfront - it had never been taken from the bank after the bids. So the guilds had 4-5-6x refunds of lost bids and only 1x payment for the "winning" bid.

chess1ukb16_ESO

Ecstatica wrote: »

Everyone talking about a rollback, I think we should be more concerned that Sunday is approaching again and as nothing has been addressed, done or changed, surely it's entirely plausible that the exact same thing is going to happen again.

Extremely unlikely it could happen again. All they have to do is changing a setting in the configuration to either put 'hiring kiosk' at 1 hour later not 5 mins or turn it off completely. I believe even ZoS can manage that. Worked fine on NA too.

edit / That said would be great they told us that rather than all these guesses and assumptions

Arrodisia

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately one. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

No, it doesn't clear it up at all. It IS simple. It doesn't take time. It doesn't take any accounting or maths skills, just simple logic. And you don't need to know which one you legitimately won since you have none. Or if you have one, then you know which one you won.
And don't tell me you don't remember how much you bid. That's something you think of all week.
And don't tell me you run multiple guilds : you don't, you can't. You can only be the GM of ONE guild in ESO. So even if you make decisions for several guilds, there are people around you who know how much you bid, and it is most likely written down somewhere.

No, really, I'm not buying the "I don't know how much is mine and how much I'm supposed to give back to ZOS". Really. No.

It all comes down to :

+ (PLUS)how much I've bid (all together)
- (MINUS) The one amount of the one bid I actually won and have the trader for (that could be zero if you have no trader at all)
- (MINUS) 10K for hiring a trader manually (if you have, else it's zero too)
- (MINUS) how much I've got reimbursed (all together)

Sum all this up : if your grand total is in a plus, ZOS owes you this amount, if your grand total is negative, you owe that money to ZOS.

Easy.

It just shows more and more that you don't know how the trade system works, or how GMs run trade guilds properly. No we don't all remember how much we bid in every guild we have, because each bid was different. We can only approximate which isn't the same as knowing the exact amount. We got multiple winning messages for each guild. Any of them at any amount could've won. You don't know me or which guilds I run. All you have here are faulty assumptions as always, which is why no one takes you seriously anymore. Learn about the trade system then come back, and tell us something, because right now you have nothing. You're just flinging around insults to those who try to be patient with your ignorance. We all see that you play the forums all day instead of the game.

Cheers

Ecstatica

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Which is just another reason a rollback makes sense.

To fix this problem, a rollback is the only thing that makes sense. But that ship has sailed - it would create a million more problems - achievements people have got, stuff they've sold or bought, entire zones cleared on characters, psijic skills ground out, guilds that have recruited members etc etc (the list goes on). It simply isn't feasible anymore.

This Sunday is going to be crazy.

Nicky33

And actually with bank history visible its easy to calculate the exact amount. Sum of all refunds minus one occurrence of each unique refund. Plus zos owns guilds a refund of the "winning" bid.

anitajoneb17_ESO

@chess1ukb16_ESO :

- If you are allergic or reluctant to any kind of bookkeeping, maybe you shouldn't run a trading guild ? Let alone 5+ guilds. A minimum bookkeeping is required when running a trading guild, it comes with the territory.
- I understand that you're the victim (like all trade guilds) of this disaster, but imho, you shouldn't overplay it.
- Everyone knew that trade is ESO had become an oligarchic system, which is not good. Maybe you should stop insisting on how many trading guilds you manage, all while also insisting on how much work and dedication and time and whatnot it requires. If that were truly the case, you couldn't possible be running 5+ of them (you wouldn't even want to).
- Also, insisting that you don't remember, there's no reliable history, you don't know which is which, etc... lacks credibility. You're all the masters of screenshotting and I'm 150% sure that you've taken all necessary measures to keep proper track of events.

It looks to me that's you've "spent" the gold and look for excuses now in order to get away with it.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Ugh. Nevermind.

chess1ukb16_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@chess1ukb16_ESO :

- If you are allergic or reluctant to any kind of bookkeeping, maybe you shouldn't run a trading guild ? Let alone 5+ guilds. A minimum bookkeeping is required when running a trading guild, it comes with the territory.
- I understand that you're the victim (like all trade guilds) of this disaster, but imho, you shouldn't overplay it.
- Everyone knew that trade is ESO had become an oligarchic system, which is not good. Maybe you should stop insisting on how many trading guilds you manage, all while also insisting on how much work and dedication and time and whatnot it requires. If that were truly the case, you couldn't possible be running 5+ of them (you wouldn't even want to).
- Also, insisting that you don't remember, there's no reliable history, you don't know which is which, etc... lacks credibility. You're all the masters of screenshotting and I'm 150% sure that you've taken all necessary measures to keep proper track of events.

It looks to me that's you've "spent" the gold and look for excuses now in order to get away with it.

Please avoid trolling. thanks!

Arrodisia

Ecstatica wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Which is just another reason a rollback makes sense.

To fix this problem, a rollback is the only thing that makes sense. But that ship has sailed - it would create a million more problems - achievements people have got, stuff they've sold or bought, entire zones cleared on characters, psijic skills ground out, guilds that have recruited members etc etc (the list goes on). It simply isn't feasible anymore.

This Sunday is going to be crazy.

it doesn't make sense at all actually. Since most of the GMs never touched the gold, and ZOS is deleting the gold. Extra accounts won't stop them from tracking it. Most GMs are just worried. They'll remove legitimate gold from the bank at the same time, and also worried that they won't get the gold back which they didn't get refunded. Not to mention, there are too many days of progress to lose now.

Mathius_Mordred

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately one. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

No, it doesn't clear it up at all. It IS simple. It doesn't take time. It doesn't take any accounting or maths skills, just simple logic. And you don't need to know which one you legitimately won since you have none. Or if you have one, then you know which one you won.
And don't tell me you don't remember how much you bid. That's something you think of all week.
And don't tell me you run multiple guilds : you don't, you can't. You can only be the GM of ONE guild in ESO. So even if you make decisions for several guilds, there are people around you who know how much you bid, and it is most likely written down somewhere.

No, really, I'm not buying the "I don't know how much is mine and how much I'm supposed to give back to ZOS". Really. No.

It all comes down to :

+ (PLUS)how much I've bid (all together)
- (MINUS) The one amount of the one bid I actually won and have the trader for (that could be zero if you have no trader at all)
- (MINUS) 10K for hiring a trader manually (if you have, else it's zero too)
- (MINUS) how much I've got reimbursed (all together)

Sum all this up : if your grand total is in a plus, ZOS owes you this amount, if your grand total is negative, you owe that money to ZOS.

Easy.

I don't know how much I bid, I have a rough idea but I didn't write it down, never thought I'd need to. Now, let's see your equation work with an unknown variable and give a logical answer.

Ecstatica

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

it doesn't make sense at all actually.

I take it you stopped reading after the first sentence

anitajoneb17_ESO

@juttaa77b16_ESO : running out of arguments already and resorting to the old "you know nothing, I do". Try again.

Maybe you should stop whining here and start getting your guild accounting together ? Accusing others of ignorance when you don't even know yourself how much you've bid is pretty ironic.

Mathius_Mordred

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

@chess1ukb16_ESO

... Rollback is the only fair way of dealing with this "duped gold".

If you think they would roll back everyone's progress for the last 4 days you're a sandwich short of a picnic. The minutes and hours just after this debacle was the time for this action, do it now and you'll find your guild sales drop not just this week but every week as hundreds of thousands of people quit the game in disgust. It's not going to happen, period, way too late for that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

I don't know how much I bid, I have a rough idea but I didn't write it down, never thought I'd need to. Now, let's see your equation work with an unknown variable and give a logical answer.

If you don't know how much you've bid but have a rough idea, then use than rough idea, that's the best you've got. Else, you rely on ZOS for calculating it for you.

Arrodisia

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@juttaa77b16_ESO : running out of arguments already and resorting to the old "you know nothing, I do". Try again.

Nope. I'm just tired of talking to a hard, empty head. I see. You still use snips of conversation to twist the topics. Anyway, I gave my explanation and the other GMs as well and they're legit, except in your paranoid world. As far as you not knowing anything about running a trade guild, and only playing the forums that is obvious, and it's the truth as well. What's that saying? If everyone keeps telling you the same thing. There must be something to it. Try admitting the truth to yourself. It might help you cope. Then, maybe you'll stop making false accusations and trolling on topics you know nothing about.

The accounting of the extra/too little gold to be paid is ZOS's job, not ours. All of my guilds are just fine thanks, because fake trolls like you aren't in it. The only one whining in this thread is you.

Best Regards

Titansteele

I find it hard to believe that a fix was not implemented to NA after the issues were reported on EU and that is one of the reasons why it worked there. I do not want to fan the flames of the whole "EU is just a testing ground for NA" sentiment that roams these forums like a hungry predator by saying this but I could not blame ZOS for putting a quick dirty fix into production NA to prevent making a huge problem even bigger.

I know a number of other IT professionals have waded in with educated guesses already but simple and common database functions could be employed to employ a quick fix even if the design is lacking with code rewrites being required to resolve the issue properly.

The bit that stings is if my belief is true and a fix was pushed into NA then the time spent protecting NA hurt EU even more as I can confidently say a rollback was the correct way to address this problem but only if it had been done at the time.
If they had taken EU offline up to an hour after the swap I would consider their incident management world class, if they had even done it within 3-4 hours I would still consider that very good but after X(I cant be arsed figuring the real number out ) hours a rollback would cause as much (if not more) harm than good.

Hindsight is 20/20 but in this case the call for a rollback was happening early both in these forums and online in guild chats (at least the guilds I am in)


ZOS, the community is basically begging you for a plan to address this issue and some confidence that it will not happen this weekend.