Theorycrafting for Light Armor Magicka Nightblade - Homestead Update

Whyn Aurum

Id really rather not runa dw build though

thankyourat

Whyn Aurum wrote: »

What traits should go with a heavy build in a Mag NB? Ive never used heavy armor, so I really dont know. I'm guessing impenetrable if not divines/infused.

I dont like clever alchemist. I dont really like to realy my damage on potions and i think this set is mostly for gankers. i prefer sustained damage without pots.

Heavy julianos in impen would be your next best bet. With alchamist though it wasn't your source of damage it was just a boost. Your main damage would come from spinner or necro alot of times I don't even proc alchemist. You could do 5 heavy julianos, 3 willpower, 2 skoria. I played with julianos/lich/Kena but it was a light armor build

arkansas_ESO

Whyn Aurum wrote: »

Id really rather not runa dw build though

You can run Spinner jewlery, 1 body piece, and a destro staff, and then run 4 Clever body pieces and a resto staff. This way you have a different 5pc bonus on each bar, and can swap to your resto bar to proc Clever when you need it.

Jawasa

So i've been Watching this thread with great intrest and i'm getting a bit addicted to high magicka so mageblade seems to be the way to go.

I have to things i've been thinking about. How do you place your red CP? 100 bastion or around 50 and then more Hardy and elemental?

What do people think about necro with grace of ancients? For non CP i'm thinking necro, lich and two Max magica monster.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

Just dropping in this thread to say I finally got around to trying out my sap tank build (getting troll king finally). Most fun I've had in this game small scale in a long, long time. I don't know if it was just a perfect group last night or what but what we were able to accomplish was un real and the support was about as ideal as could be. 5 heavy seducer, 5 fasallas, 2 troll king / skoria.

I ran last night with 2 magplars, a stam DK (running troll king), mag sorc and a bomb blade. The fears, fasallas, negate, destros and troll king while allowing me to run 5 dots with skoria we were tanking / wiping insane amounts of people luring in to line of site and watching them panic when they realized way too late that fasallas was ending their life. The sustain / support / damage has renewed my faith in Magblade. While it's unfortunate it's in heavy armor, being so tanky made it so much more fun and a much needed change of pace. Any questions on build feel free to ask..not much gameplay from it yet but I'll be running probably a similar group tonight and adding a mag DK to the mix.

SneaK

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Just dropping in this thread to say I finally got around to trying out my sap tank build (getting troll king finally). Most fun I've had in this game small scale in a long, long time. I don't know if it was just a perfect group last night or what but what we were able to accomplish was un real and the support was about as ideal as could be. 5 heavy seducer, 5 fasallas, 2 troll king / skoria.

I ran last night with 2 magplars, a stam DK (running troll king), mag sorc and a bomb blade. The fears, fasallas, negate, destros and troll king while allowing me to run 5 dots with skoria we were tanking / wiping insane amounts of people luring in to line of site and watching them panic when they realized way too late that fasallas was ending their life. The sustain / support / damage has renewed my faith in Magblade. While it's unfortunate it's in heavy armor, being so tanky made it so much more fun and a much needed change of pace. Any questions on build feel free to ask..not much gameplay from it yet but I'll be running probably a similar group tonight and adding a mag DK to the mix.

And occasionally a White Werewolfkhajiit

bubbygink

I have to say that I am absolutely loving the 2 Pirate Skelly + 5 Clever + 5 Necro, 5L 1M 1H build. Running all mag magicka armor and spell damage jewelry enchants with shadow mundus and witchmother's potent brew. Great balance of sustain, damage, and defense. With siphoning attacks I never have magicka or stamina issues even if I am forced on the defensive for a bit. My damage is crazy - even against the tankiest builds I hit 5 digit spectral bows. And of course I can use clever to ramp up the damage even further when needed. When Pirate Skelly procs with already huge shields from necro, I actually feel tankier than when I was in heavy. I also feel like I have great mobility with shade and mistform plus access to major expedition (outside of mistform). Not only great single target damage with the new flame staff bonuses but also crazy in groups with destro ult + sap essence and fear. I definitely recommend trying this out. Really well-rounded and effective.

Jawasa wrote: »

So i've been Watching this thread with great intrest and i'm getting a bit addicted to high magicka so mageblade seems to be the way to go.

I have to things i've been thinking about. How do you place your red CP? 100 bastion or around 50 and then more Hardy and elemental?

What do people think about necro with grace of ancients? For non CP i'm thinking necro, lich and two Max magica monster.

As far as CP I go with the later - a decent amount into Bastion but then a lot into Hardy and Elemental Defender. But to be honest this is partially just left over from my heavy armor build. I would also love to know what everyone else thinks on this. 100 (or close to 100) could be the way to go on Bastion. I'll have to play around with that a bit.

I have never tried out Grace of the Ancients. The only thing I don't like about it is that i can't run 2 piece monster plus two 5 piece bonsues which I prefer doing. But that's not to say that it couldn't work.

For non-CP that sounds like a pretty good build. For last weeks non-cp I did 1 kena + 5 seducer + 5 necro (5L 1M 1H) and my sustain was pretty equivalent to what I have with my normal build with 600 CP.

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

Just dropping in this thread to say I finally got around to trying out my sap tank build (getting troll king finally).......Any questions on build feel free to ask..not much gameplay from it yet but I'll be running probably a similar group tonight and adding a mag DK to the mix.

@HEBREWHAMMERRR That sounds awesome man. Never tried out a sap tank but always wanted to. Would love to see some gameplay video. If you're able to get some good stuff please post it here!

Tryxus

Recenty fell to the dark side and decided to give Pirate Skella go...

It was REALLY nice The additional resistances it gives along with Minor Maim from Shade and fear along with Dampen Magic and Healing Ward makes for one very tough MagBlade. Literally duelled someone until he ran out of stam (very gf btw )

Downside tho was that my offense took a hit. I really like Skoria for my monster set since the proc helps me keep pressure on my opponent. But I guess both sets are good

Also want to try out Shadowrend, extra pet and Minor Maim

Currently: 5x Necro, 3x Willpower and a monster set with Master/Maelstrom staves

I also have a heavy armor setup, but I've been getting mixed signals about a set I want to run. So I'd like to hear additional opinions

My build is going to be 3x Spinners Jewelry with 1x Gear and a Frost Staff with 4x Wyrd Tree and a Resto Staff. And a monster set on top

My idea is to go to backbar for the Wyrd Tree purge and have all my buffs and Healing Ward there, while going full Penetration on front bar with Spinners.

Like to have some input on this

Jitterbug

Tryxus wrote: »

Recenty fell to the dark side and decided to give Pirate Skella go...

It was REALLY nice The additional resistances it gives along with Minor Maim from Shade and fear along with Dampen Magic and Healing Ward makes for one very tough MagBlade. Literally duelled someone until he ran out of stam (very gf btw )

Downside tho was that my offense took a hit. I really like Skoria for my monster set since the proc helps me keep pressure on my opponent. But I guess both sets are good

Also want to try out Shadowrend, extra pet and Minor Maim

Currently: 5x Necro, 3x Willpower and a monster set with Master/Maelstrom staves

I also have a heavy armor setup, but I've been getting mixed signals about a set I want to run. So I'd like to hear additional opinions

My build is going to be 3x Spinners Jewelry with 1x Gear and a Frost Staff with 4x Wyrd Tree and a Resto Staff. And a monster set on top

My idea is to go to backbar for the Wyrd Tree purge and have all my buffs and Healing Ward there, while going full Penetration on front bar with Spinners.

Like to have some input on this

Sounds like a very cool idea to me. Does Wyrd Tree purge snares? If it does it might be a boost to cloak, no?

adirondack

I've tried wyrd tree on multiple setups and found it lacking. It is one of several dropped heavy armor sets that provides health and magic bonuses, but the purge is every 30 seconds which makes it pretty worthless IMHO.

Jitterbug

adirondack wrote: »

I've tried wyrd tree on multiple setups and found it lacking. It is one of several dropped heavy armor sets that provides health and magic bonuses, but the purge is every 30 seconds which makes it pretty worthless IMHO.

I dont know if they changed it since you used it or the information here is outdated, but they don't match.

NightbladeMechanics

thankyourat wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Well I'll try to get back on topic since this has been a great thread for discussion so far.

I've been running the 2 pirate skelly / 5 clever / 5 Necro 5L-1M-1H and I've been loving it. My 47.5k mag magicka makes my Dampen shield huge and combined with skelly I feel really tanky. Been using shadow mundus too and I've been hitting like a truck, especially when clever is procced. Hit a 24k spectral bow today. Definitely recommend this setup.

The shadow mundus is beast. I'm running it as well I don't think I'll ever switch back. This 8℅ damage boost is crazy as well. I hit a guy for a 18k heavy attack plus a 3k flame enchant proc. I'm not even a ganker. I don't know what ZoS was thinking lol. I think all magblades should probably use the shadow mundus it's feeling like BIS for light armor atleast heavy will still have to run the thief.

Shadow becomes usable above 40% crit and BiS above 50%. My current build hits 50.2% crit in heavy with shadow, and it's absolutely monstrous.

Overall shadow is the ideal mundus for damage oriented PvP builds regardless of class as long as you have succicient crit chance.

Edit: I should add that Thief can become BiS again if it puts you over 67% crit, but that's rare for PvP builds.

bubbygink

Tryxus wrote: »

My build is going to be 3x Spinners Jewelry with 1x Gear and a Frost Staff with 4x Wyrd Tree and a Resto Staff. And a monster set on top

My idea is to go to backbar for the Wyrd Tree purge and have all my buffs and Healing Ward there, while going full Penetration on front bar with Spinners.

Like to have some input on this

@Tryxus I like using Spinners + Heavey + Thief mundus. Spinners and Thief make up for the pen and crit you lose being in heavy instead of light. So I think Spinners is a great heavy armor set so you're good there. But I have not tried out Wyrd Tree so not sure how beneficial the purge would be. It does have some nice 4 piece bonuses. You could probably run duel or tri food with this set (as opposed to witchmother's) and still sustain fine. The one thing I would reccomend is to go with a flame staff over frost. The damage it provides is so beneficial and since magblades (especially in heavy) have plenty of stam sustain anyway there is no reason to have ice staff which would just be draining your magicka and leaving your stamina to waste.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Shadow becomes usable above 40% crit and BiS above 50%. My current build hits 50.2% crit in heavy with shadow, and it's absolutely monstrous.

Overall shadow is the ideal mundus for damage oriented PvP builds regardless of class as long as you have succicient crit chance.

Edit: I should add that Thief can become BiS again if it puts you over 67% crit, but that's rare for PvP builds.

@NightbladeMechanics I have not done the math but just from my experience this seems about right. When my crit is in the mid 40s or so I start to prefer shadow mundus for open world. Typically for me, this basically equates to preferring thief in heavy and shadow in light.

Also over 50% crit in heavy without shadow definitely is monstrous. Something like heavy Julianos + Trans might hit that I suppose, if you have a few assassination abilities on your bar and major prophecy up. If you ever decide to share the build I'd love to hear it!

NightbladeMechanics

@bubbygink More to the build than that, but you're getting in the right direction. One of these days I'll share it, but I need motivation.. Been feeling down lately.

The reason going over 50% crit in PvP is not ideal is because in PvP, you kill with burst combos containing a few hard hitting abilities. I use a fractional theory of crit chance to explain this.

33% crit chance is 1/3 hits critting
50% is 1/2 hits critting
67% is 2/3 hits critting
75% is 3/4 hits critting
etc.

So in a burst combo of only, for example, 2-4 attacks, you want to sit as close to one of these thresholds as possible without going over, because it's on these thresholds that consistent crit combos will occur. All crit chance in excess of a given threshold without reaching the next is statistically wasted because you will either crit that next attack or you won't.

In practice, critting 2/4 hits with 40% crit chance is lucky because you crit half of your attacks but did not build 50% crit chance. Critting 2/4 attacks would happen more consistently with 50% crit chance, so that is preferred over 40%. On the contrary, if you build 56% crit chance but only crit 2/4 attacks, you're unlucky because you built crit chance in excess of one half but did not crit more than half of your attacks. That extra 6% crit chance is wasted stats in your power budget that could have been allocated to spell damage or regen -- you might as well not have had it at all.

Does this make sense? 40% is our go-to number because that's what most heavy armor builds get with their Major Prophecy/Savagery buff and no other crit bonuses, and because it is near enough to 50% that we have somewhat consistent results (even though no, they aren't consistent, and that irks me lol). Light and medium armor can achieve 50% pretty easily.

According to my theory, 67% crit chance (2/3) would be better than 50%, but 67% crit chance is very difficult for magicka builds to get in PvP, and is even a challenge for stamina builds, which typically have more crit chance tools available to them. Therefore, I stick with as close to 50% as I can manage in my builds. I run Major Prophecy/Savagery in all of my builds and try to get as close to 50% crit chance without using the Thief as possible. I use the Thief if I'm still under ~42%, and the Shadow if I'm over that amount. That's the premise on which I theorycraft all of my builds for all classes these days.

Tryxus

bubbygink wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

My build is going to be 3x Spinners Jewelry with 1x Gear and a Frost Staff with 4x Wyrd Tree and a Resto Staff. And a monster set on top

My idea is to go to backbar for the Wyrd Tree purge and have all my buffs and Healing Ward there, while going full Penetration on front bar with Spinners.

Like to have some input on this

Tryxus I like using Spinners + Heavey + Thief mundus. Spinners and Thief make up for the pen and crit you lose being in heavy instead of light. So I think Spinners is a great heavy armor set so you're good there. But I have not tried out Wyrd Tree so not sure how beneficial the purge would be. It does have some nice 4 piece bonuses. You could probably run duel or tri food with this set (as opposed to witchmother's) and still sustain fine. The one thing I would reccomend is to go with a flame staff over frost. The damage it provides is so beneficial and since magblades (especially in heavy) have plenty of stam sustain anyway there is no reason to have ice staff which would just be draining your magicka and leaving your stamina to waste.

I've always used a Frost Staff for PvP, except for ganking. It's mostly because of the Frost Clench root, which I think works very well with the NB toolkit. And now with the Destro Staff changes, I rlly like it more than Fire. But it's all personal preferrence

My current setup for Heavy Armor is Black Rose with Spinner and Master/Maelstrom Staves, but Wyrd Tree is this set that I've been wanting to try out for some time now. With 2 Mag Regen bonuses, a Spell Damage bonus and a purge that I can trigger by going to the back bar and using a skill there, it does seem like a nice complementary set to Spinners.

I'll test the purge out this weekend, and if it's any good I'll be using that for my Heavy Armor setup

thankyourat

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

Well I'll try to get back on topic since this has been a great thread for discussion so far.

I've been running the 2 pirate skelly / 5 clever / 5 Necro 5L-1M-1H and I've been loving it. My 47.5k mag magicka makes my Dampen shield huge and combined with skelly I feel really tanky. Been using shadow mundus too and I've been hitting like a truck, especially when clever is procced. Hit a 24k spectral bow today. Definitely recommend this setup.

The shadow mundus is beast. I'm running it as well I don't think I'll ever switch back. This 8℅ damage boost is crazy as well. I hit a guy for a 18k heavy attack plus a 3k flame enchant proc. I'm not even a ganker. I don't know what ZoS was thinking lol. I think all magblades should probably use the shadow mundus it's feeling like BIS for light armor atleast heavy will still have to run the thief.

Shadow becomes usable above 40% crit and BiS above 50%. My current build hits 50.2% crit in heavy with shadow, and it's absolutely monstrous.

Overall shadow is the ideal mundus for damage oriented PvP builds regardless of class as long as you have succicient crit chance.

Edit: I should add that Thief can become BiS again if it puts you over 67% crit, but that's rare for PvP builds.

Yea I'm sitting at 46℅ crit I believe. Lol I don't think I've ever had 67℅ crit not even on my PvE builds. To get 50℅ crit on your heavy armor build without the thief are you using julianos and mother's sorrow?

thankyourat

The resto ultimate is the most op thing in the game. Can't believe I'm just now using it

Tryxus

Just tried out the Wyrd Tree:

- The Mag Regen it provides is amazing: with Brew I'm at 2k
- The purge doesn't seem to remove snares (:s bummer, was hoping this set would help with Snare control) but it does remove debuffs and other bad stuff
- With the right monster sets and Siphoning Attacks, this build is nice and tanky and will never run out of magicka while the purge is a nice thing to have on the backbar

Will try a few more duels and see how it goes

Jitterbug

In my recent experience (3 hours on azuras yesterday) Wyrd did seem to remove snares. It might just be in the chaos of war or a cooncidence but I was snared, clicked cloak, was not snared. Will test more ofc but anyway I had more survivability than Ive ever had with 5 Wyrd on back bar.

bubbygink

@Tryxus @Jitterbug Thanks for the info! As to the snares, I wonder if it could just be the prevalence of snares that makes it seem like they're not being purged. Since Wyrd Tree doesn't provide snare immunity is it possible that it's cleansing the snares but they're just being reapplied nearly instantly?

Another possibility is the snares are low on the purge priority list, if there even is such a thing. I know the set only cleanses 5 things and not sure how it chooses. Is it random? By length remaining? Or is there some priority list - e.g. damage dots -> debuffs -> snares? If so maybe snares are just low on the priority and therefore not typically purged.

Would be interested to hear if either of you make a definitive determination either way on whether or not it purges snares! Sounds like you've both had good results with it.

Jitterbug

bubbygink wrote: »

@Tryxus @Jitterbug Thanks for the info! As to the snares, I wonder if it could just be the prevalence of snares that makes it seem like they're not being purged. Since Wyrd Tree doesn't provide snare immunity is it possible that it's cleansing the snares but they're just being reapplied nearly instantly?

Another possibility is the snares are low on the purge priority list, if there even is such a thing. I know the set only cleanses 5 things and not sure how it chooses. Is it random? By length remaining? Or is there some priority list - e.g. damage dots -> debuffs -> snares? If so maybe snares are just low on the priority and therefore not typically purged.

Would be interested to hear if either of you make a definitive determination either way on whether or not it purges snares! Sounds like you've both had good results with it.

I still can't say 100% with science but with Wyrd it feels like dark cloak is back.

Tryxus

bubbygink wrote: »

@Tryxus @Jitterbug Thanks for the info! As to the snares, I wonder if it could just be the prevalence of snares that makes it seem like they're not being purged. Since Wyrd Tree doesn't provide snare immunity is it possible that it's cleansing the snares but they're just being reapplied nearly instantly?

Another possibility is the snares are low on the purge priority list, if there even is such a thing. I know the set only cleanses 5 things and not sure how it chooses. Is it random? By length remaining? Or is there some priority list - e.g. damage dots -> debuffs -> snares? If so maybe snares are just low on the priority and therefore not typically purged.

Would be interested to hear if either of you make a definitive determination either way on whether or not it purges snares! Sounds like you've both had good results with it.

Well it could be that my oppenents were applying another snare right after purging. Gonna try and see if I can purge a single snare in a controlled enviroment

But the set as a whole feels very nice.

EDIT: Yup, it purges snares. Had a NB apply Crippling Grasp on me, used Siphoning on back bar and my movement speed returned to normal. Would be great to have Cloak on backbar now, just like @Jitterbug said

Also, I took the time to test out my old gank setup again: Alchemist + Elegant + 1pc Kena. With the Destro Staff changes (The Heavy Attack time reduction) I have to reapply Disguise again after firing my Heavy Attack apparently in order to get the full damage. On a target skeleton I was able to get 39k Heavy Attacks in

Ishammael

Has anyone tried TBS + Medusa (or similar) in HA. I'm curious how good the dmg would actually be.

I guess NB doesn't need Medusa, but other classes like mDK could do it.

arkansas_ESO

Anybody ran Treasure Hunter on heavy mag NB with decent results? Was thinking of running it with Clever Alchemist and Valkyn, but wanted to hear from somebody that's already tried it before I run through Volenfall 60 times to get a sharpened inferno staff.

Jitterbug

Keeping the thread alive with a little story:

My build has now developed into

4 pc. (jewels+1L) Critmother + Critmother inferno staff (sharpened) - set gives a bunch of crit
4 pc. (heavy) Wyrd Tree + Wyrd Resto (powered) - set purges debuffs
2 pc. (1H+1M) Troll King (in loltraits but who cares) - set gives health regen en masse

magicka glyphs on all armor / mag return on resto staff + deadric damage on destro
withmother's brew + health/magicka/immovable potions

Front bar: Swallow Soul - Degeneration - Merciless Resolve - Impale - Mass Hysteria - (Elemental Rage)
Back bar: Mutagen - Siphoning Attacks - Dark Cloak - Double Take - Concealed Weapon - (Light's Champion)

Stats in Azuras (noCP): 22k health / 30k magicka / 2k spell power / 1300 mag reg / 40% crit (all rough numbers)

Now, I do only run in Azura's, and I also (very) mainly run in PUGs but I have seen very good results with this build.
Using Mutagen in stead of Ward makes all my healing passive in stead of reactive and Wyrd makes it so Cloak actually works. This means that when I'm pressured (so, always) I go to back bar and click Cloak. This removes a bunch of debuffs (like snares) and gives me a few seconds of peace to let the hots (strife/mutagen(/degen)) do their job, and lets me, in lack of a better term, "play like Kena" where I can stay on the offensive in stead of panic spamming wards and mist until I die.
I even dropped vamp since Cloak works again.

Both Double Take and Concealed Weapon are obviously flex spots, I just like to go fast. Shadow Image or something would probably fit a lot of folks better in one of those spots.

Another upside of Mutagen over Healing Ward is the fact that I can give more of my team mates the benefit of Troll King which makes me go to 2800 health regen with a pot. That plus the 2.5 hots keep me alive through most things (barring mass-roflstomping). Same goes for Light's Champion. Aside from being insanely strong (1 BoL every second for 5 seconds, anyone?) it gives me major protection (30%) and crit damage (15%), and it only costs 100 ultimate O.o

I know the meta (and all of this thread) says pen > crit and I don't doubt that they're right but lack of money and the will to grind made me look for alternatives to Spinner's and thus I stumbled upon Critmother (I should probably check the real name for that) and I just love those big yellow numbers. Pen might be better against tanks (I mean real, proper tanks) but a lot of folks die plenty fast to this setup. It will absolutely do until I get Spinner's, and at a 6th of the price.

Now if anyone has questions, comments, or critique they are very welcome. :-)
I mainly want to keep this great and helpful thread alive.

worsttankever

@Jitterbug I think you mean Mother's Sorrow

ninjaguyman

Whats the recommended amount of magicka recovery on a light armor mag nb?

Im currently at about 1700 mag recovery( using 2 recovery glyphs and atro mundus) and im also argonian for the potion passive.

Im thinking of swapping to either thief or shadow mundus based on some of the things im reading here.

(I play alone or in a small group if that matters)

Of course, Im gonna try on my own regardless, just want to know if there is a general consensus on a sweet spot for mag recovery.

thankyourat

ninjaguyman wrote: »

Whats the recommended amount of magicka recovery on a light armor mag nb?

Im currently at about 1700 mag recovery( using 2 recovery glyphs and atro mundus) and im also argonian for the potion passive.

Im thinking of swapping to either thief or shadow mundus based on some of the things im reading here.

(I play alone or in a small group if that matters)

Of course, Im gonna try on my own regardless, just want to know if there is a general consensus on a sweet spot for mag recovery.

I'm run as low as 1500 I won't go much lower than that because I play solo. For small group or zerg surfing you could probably go as low as 1100 and be fine.

I like to play with 1700-1900 though and I get my damage from combos and alchamist procs

Jitterbug

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Anybody ran Treasure Hunter on heavy mag NB with decent results? Was thinking of running it with Clever Alchemist and Valkyn, but wanted to hear from somebody that's already tried it before I run through Volenfall 60 times to get a sharpened inferno staff.

I've done a bit of it and it does work. It feels slightly superior to Mother's Sorrow since it gives a bit of extra spell power, so I would definitely recommend it. I just didn't want to farm the staff so I stuck with Critmother. I only tried it with a charged staff and it synergises well with skoria since people are always "burning" but obviously it didn't pack the same punch as a sharpened one.
If I had a sharpened staff I would probably go with treasure hunter.

HarpaxPT

What are your thoughts on master inferno staff for magblade with most builds use flamereach? Is it worth running over a set flame staff?