Shield Breaker - AKA "I win button"

Lava_Croft

ToRelax wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

As an enchantment it hass a cooldown and does less damage. Shieldbreaker would be pretty useless 1v1 if it dealt less than 1k damage to the health pool. Wich is why you can't really balance it that way...

I was kind of openly thinking about Shield Breaker + Pact's Bow for 3k unresistable damage.

I still have one for sale.

Stamina smells bad, so no thanks.

Stikato

Lava_Croft wrote: »

People complaining about Shield Breaker ruining the game for builds using Shields are just as bad as people saying Shield Breaker is a good sol

ToRelax wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

As an enchantment it hass a cooldown and does less damage. Shieldbreaker would be pretty useless 1v1 if it dealt less than 1k damage to the health pool. Wich is why you can't really balance it that way...

I was kind of openly thinking about Shield Breaker + Pact's Bow for 3k unresistable damage.

Been using Pact's Bow. The enchant seems to just go against the damage shield. I think it's a different kind of "irresistible" than Shield Breaker.

MrGigglypants

shield breaker is only an I win button if the sorc just stands there with shields up doing nothing. L2P issue yes sorry you have to run a restoration staff as a sorcerer and have more than 15k health. Any magicka build outside of sorcs is hardly affected unless they spam healing ward. Templars are crushing it right now in ic toppling+ jabs+ spear throw+ bol is real.

ToRelax

MrGigglypants wrote: »

shield breaker is only an I win button if the sorc just stands there with shields up doing nothing. L2P issue yes sorry you have to run a restoration staff as a sorcerer and have more than 15k health. Any magicka build outside of sorcs is hardly affected unless they spam healing ward. Templars are crushing it right now in ic toppling+ jabs+ spear throw+ bol is real.

My stamina DK thinks the Templars I encountered so far didn't like the set at all. Rendered block useless, turned Blazing Shield into a self harming effect and Harness Magicka into a death trap, and just in case they don't use shields - I still have Fossilize.

CP5

ToRelax wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

shield breaker is only an I win button if the sorc just stands there with shields up doing nothing. L2P issue yes sorry you have to run a restoration staff as a sorcerer and have more than 15k health. Any magicka build outside of sorcs is hardly affected unless they spam healing ward. Templars are crushing it right now in ic toppling+ jabs+ spear throw+ bol is real.

My stamina DK thinks the Templars I encountered so far didn't like the set at all. Rendered block useless, turned Blazing Shield into a self harming effect and Harness Magicka into a death trap, and just in case they don't use shields - I still have Fossilize.

But no, lets just keep going on about how this set only impacts shield stacking sorcs. Nothing to see here...

Xeven

I was invited to a dueling guild called Legend. This is the most butthurt group of Non-Sorcs you will ever meet. Anyway I asked for a dual and immediately got one from a Shield Breaker DK, lol... Let's call him "Nate". So my first dual in the guild, I show up to the designated location and he immediately starts light attacking me with shield breaker. I didnt know he was a DK at the time so I immediately dropped a Meteor on his ass, followed by a Crystal Frag & a Mages Fury. He spectacularly exploded.

So he begs and pleads to fight again. He promises not to wear Shield Breaker. He promises to "Block & Jump" to signal when he is ready to fight.

I show up to the designated location... he attacks from stealth with, you guessed it, Shield Breaker. Being a slow poke ass DK I run away to our closest keep. He gives chase, Shield Breaker bow attacks all the way there.

I stop at the front gate where he is met with 4 NPC Gate Guards where he can no longer focus so intently on his left click spam. I promptly switch my bar out with healing ward and mutagen while he is busy with the NPCs. He falls over shortly after with a crystal frag straight to his dome.

True story bro.

Xeven

double post.

WalksAmongShadows

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

FriedEggSandwich

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

WalksAmongShadows

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

Septimus_Magna

Francescolg wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Why do you keep repeating the same argument again and again and again? (google "empty signifier")

There are more ways to defend in this game, one example is dodge-chance! If you build your arguments up on lies, you can not be taken for serious! If you are not able to "find" some other ways to defend yourself, maybe this game is not suited for you!

The thing is: that all classes, exept you (!), did always have to think about, where to invest their resources either stamina, magicka or health points. For the sorc, this "way of calibrating your char stats" has been = GO FULL MAGICKA, no matter what.. (sorry, for repeating that argument, see how it feels to repeat an argument endlessly?)

The benefit of having a Hardened Ward, which scales with your MAIN STAT magicka + all the new goodies that came with the last two patches (REMOVAL of CAPS, vr 16 gear, better armor enchants, imba Molag Kena set, etc), is significant for PvP!
--> All those "new patches" BUFF sorcerer's dmg and their class shield AT THE SAME TIME, so that players are actually going up to 40-45k magicka with ease, so their Hardened Ward keeps getting buffed..
If ZOS would bring Hardened Ward in line (^-^) with other absorb shields, so they make them ALL scale with Health Ponts, you cries would be even worse..!

Why aren't you happy with what you got with the last two patches, ain't it never enough!? Is a new set such evil for you? Since the days of Daoc, sorc's have been drama queens, nothin'else! Remember the fire mages in Daoc, when they got their first fireball nurf... loooool Behind all that drama, sorcerers are getting buffed and many things remain "untouched" (un-nurfed), as a result of the drama.

Yeah, the 20% dodge chance will keep you alive for long time. What a great argument! You're totally right, there are plenty other ways for sorcs to stay alive, many successful magicka sorcs dont even use Hardened Ward anymore.

Other magicka builds also get benefits from 45k max magicka, templars heals and damage also scales up for example. So whats the difference with other classes? They get equally buffed with the new sets. Just so you know, Molag Kena does nothing for shields but it does increase the strength of heals.

I have no problems holding my own in pvp but the shieldbreakers gives an unfair advantage because it specifically targets an class for using their defense mechanism and it has zero drawbacks.

FriedEggSandwich

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

I haven't run out of arguments, I just can't be bothered to try to prove either of us right or wrong because neither of us can provide enough evidence to do so. I don't believe you know my stance on anything; I'm assuming that you've made assumptions about me, and that's why this discussion is pointless imo. I still believe my original comment you responded to was mostly factual, but you wanted to undermine it so I wanted to defend it.

Every class is learning to play and gearing up at the moment. I've tried multiple changes to my build since the last patch dropped. I wear one piece of heavy armour and have invested in the passives, I'm going to try wearing one piece of medium even though I don't have the mettle passive. I've given up harness/dampen magic and switched out degeneration for power surge. So I roll with one ward, 6 light/1 heavy, an armour buff and a heal (rapid regen). I still do well; I solo grind bone shards and kill most players that try to gank me. I wanted to stress that I'm not unkillable, but you took the opportunity to essentially tell me to gear up and l2p. I could of course slot dampen magic again to make me more survivable but I thought that's what people were complaining about, and I still don't think that would make me unkillalbe by high-stam weapon damage builds because the majority of their damage is physical.

Posting a screenshot of your cls from this one fight you had is not going to make me believe hardened ward is op. You didn't even mention what wards he was using. What was his shield value? Was he stacking? If so I can see how that would have made it a bit harder for you, given that you reminded me about ultimate damage. But you originally responded to a comment where I was defending hardened ward only, so I assumed the sorc that killed you was only using that. That's what I get defensive about, because I have 77cp in the bastion and 31k magicka and my hardened ward is just 9k, and it's the only ward I carry. 10k is probably the maximum value people will reach without gimping their setup but don't quote me on that. If it turns out that in a few months people are running around with 48k magicka and a 14k ward or something ridiculous like that then I still won't agree to a hardened ward nerf, because I'll still only have a 9k ward. And what about those players who can't put 77cp into bastion and only have a 6k ward? This is why we're seeing "sorcs suck" threads from console players.

WalksAmongShadows

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

I haven't run out of arguments, I just can't be bothered to try to prove either of us right or wrong because neither of us can provide enough evidence to do so. I don't believe you know my stance on anything; I'm assuming that you've made assumptions about me, and that's why this discussion is pointless imo. I still believe my original comment you responded to was mostly factual, but you wanted to undermine it so I wanted to defend it.

Every class is learning to play and gearing up at the moment. I've tried multiple changes to my build since the last patch dropped. I wear one piece of heavy armour and have invested in the passives, I'm going to try wearing one piece of medium even though I don't have the mettle passive. I've given up harness/dampen magic and switched out degeneration for power surge. So I roll with one ward, 6 light/1 heavy, an armour buff and a heal (rapid regen). I still do well; I solo grind bone shards and kill most players that try to gank me. I wanted to stress that I'm not unkillable, but you took the opportunity to essentially tell me to gear up and l2p. I could of course slot dampen magic again to make me more survivable but I thought that's what people were complaining about, and I still don't think that would make me unkillalbe by high-stam weapon damage builds because the majority of their damage is physical.

Posting a screenshot of your cls from this one fight you had is not going to make me believe hardened ward is op. You didn't even mention what wards he was using. What was his shield value? Was he stacking? If so I can see how that would have made it a bit harder for you, given that you reminded me about ultimate damage. But you originally responded to a comment where I was defending hardened ward only, so I assumed the sorc that killed you was only using that. That's what I get defensive about, because I have 77cp in the bastion and 31k magicka and my hardened ward is just 9k, and it's the only ward I carry. 10k is probably the maximum value people will reach without gimping their setup but don't quote me on that. If it turns out that in a few months people are running around with 48k magicka and a 14k ward or something ridiculous like that then I still won't agree to a hardened ward nerf, because I'll still only have a 9k ward. And what about those players who can't put 77cp into bastion and only have a 6k ward? This is why we're seeing "sorcs suck" threads from console players.

Yes, he was stacking and spamming wards and since he had 17k hp, his magicka must have been quite high. Thing is, even if your ward is 6k, it's almost impossible to dps through with physical damage (assuming similiar CP on the attacker) because you can't crit on shields. Especially if you also use lightning form. So as long as you keep spamming 'em while weaving in overload light attacks, it's pretty cheesy.

Xeven

Hardend Ward is OP and yes, Overload is cheesy.

None of that has anything to do with shield breaker and how it's a terrible "solution".

You should be mad too, because now you have to dedicate five slots to counter broken mechanics.

rfennell_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

I was invited to a dueling guild called Legend. This is the most butthurt group of Non-Sorcs you will ever meet. Anyway I asked for a dual and immediately got one from a Shield Breaker DK, lol... Let's call him "Nate". So my first dual in the guild, I show up to the designated location and he immediately starts light attacking me with shield breaker. I didnt know he was a DK at the time so I immediately dropped a Meteor on his ass, followed by a Crystal Frag & a Mages Fury. He spectacularly exploded.

So he begs and pleads to fight again. He promises not to wear Shield Breaker. He promises to "Block & Jump" to signal when he is ready to fight.

I show up to the designated location... he attacks from stealth with, you guessed it, Shield Breaker. Being a slow poke ass DK I run away to our closest keep. He gives chase, Shield Breaker bow attacks all the way there.

I stop at the front gate where he is met with 4 NPC Gate Guards where he can no longer focus so intently on his left click spam. I promptly switch my bar out with healing ward and mutagen while he is busy with the NPCs. He falls over shortly after with a crystal frag straight to his dome.

True story bro.

It's probably not true, just more arrogant rambling of the empowered class whiner.

Thing about it is, without using shield breaker he probably couldn't have ever even made you run away. Mouth breather sorcs that have searched google and play a lot to have the gear are impossible to kill solo. The only thing that can make them streak away (w/thundering presence for the fastest movement speed possible in game) is shield breaker.

Even with shield breaker, any geared out sorc that can type and has heard of google is nearly unassailable.

The argument that shield breaker is an "I win" button is totally thwarted by the simple fact that you don't have to stay and fight and the bulk of other players can not possibly keep up with you when you choose to not fight.

ToRelax

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I was invited to a dueling guild called Legend. This is the most butthurt group of Non-Sorcs you will ever meet. Anyway I asked for a dual and immediately got one from a Shield Breaker DK, lol... Let's call him "Nate". So my first dual in the guild, I show up to the designated location and he immediately starts light attacking me with shield breaker. I didnt know he was a DK at the time so I immediately dropped a Meteor on his ass, followed by a Crystal Frag & a Mages Fury. He spectacularly exploded.

So he begs and pleads to fight again. He promises not to wear Shield Breaker. He promises to "Block & Jump" to signal when he is ready to fight.

I show up to the designated location... he attacks from stealth with, you guessed it, Shield Breaker. Being a slow poke ass DK I run away to our closest keep. He gives chase, Shield Breaker bow attacks all the way there.

I stop at the front gate where he is met with 4 NPC Gate Guards where he can no longer focus so intently on his left click spam. I promptly switch my bar out with healing ward and mutagen while he is busy with the NPCs. He falls over shortly after with a crystal frag straight to his dome.

True story bro.

It's probably not true, just more arrogant rambling of the empowered class whiner.

Thing about it is, without using shield breaker he probably couldn't have ever even made you run away. Mouth breather sorcs that have searched google and play a lot to have the gear are impossible to kill solo. The only thing that can make them streak away (w/thundering presence for the fastest movement speed possible in game) is shield breaker.

Even with shield breaker, any geared out sorc that can type and has heard of google is nearly unassailable.

The argument that shield breaker is an "I win" button is totally thwarted by the simple fact that you don't have to stay and fight and the bulk of other players can not possibly keep up with you when you choose to not fight.

So... how exactly is it fair to force players into running away (not to mention they actually can't anymore if their enemies are half decent players with gap closers) by spamming light attacks? Just because someone is not able to force me into reatreat usually, doesn't mean I should be forced into retreat anyway. Where's your logic.

rfennell_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

So... how exactly is it fair to force players into running away (not to mention they actually can't anymore if their enemies are half decent players with gap closers) by spamming light attacks? Just because someone is not able to force me into reatreat usually, doesn't mean I should be forced into retreat anyway. Where's your logic.

My logic is that it's not an "I win" button, but it can be a "I tie" button.

So my logic is it takes an "I lose" situation and makes it a tie. It's pretty good for a 5 set, no doubt.

ToRelax

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So... how exactly is it fair to force players into running away (not to mention they actually can't anymore if their enemies are half decent players with gap closers) by spamming light attacks? Just because someone is not able to force me into reatreat usually, doesn't mean I should be forced into retreat anyway. Where's your logic.

My logic is that it's not an "I win" button, but it can be a "I tie" button.

So my logic is it takes an "I lose" situation and makes it a tie. It's pretty good for a 5 set, no doubt.

If any attacker would without this set certainly lose against me, meaning he dies I guess, then he should lose because it's not hard to survive 1v1 forever, with any class. So that basically proves the set is OP once again... right?

rfennell_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

If any attacker would without this set certainly lose against me, meaning he dies I guess, then he should lose because it's not hard to survive 1v1 forever, with any class. So that basically proves the set is OP once again... right?

It shows something is OP.

Just not what you think it is.

ToRelax

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

If any attacker would without this set certainly lose against me, meaning he dies I guess, then he should lose because it's not hard to survive 1v1 forever, with any class. So that basically proves the set is OP once again... right?

It shows something is OP.

Just not what you think it is.

Tell me then. Or do you have a reason not to?

rfennell_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

Tell me then. Or do you have a reason not to?

I wasn't being obscure, at all.

Kova

I don't get it. Those exalting the set because "sorcs were unkillable" pre 1.7 have the strangest arguments. "I had to do X amount of burst. I had to catch them offguard. I had to have help. This set lets me tie."

Can no one see the subtext in these claims?

"I had to do X amount of burst" = "I could kill anyone I wanted at will besides sorcs."

"I had to catch them offguard" = "I gank to ensure a quick win."

"I had to have help/multiple people" = "I use numbers to win against smaller groups."

"This set let's me tie/stand a chance." = "Even though countless people can kill sorcs and have since launch, I need to do unavoidable damage in order to win."

I kited a boss to a group the other day and their templar tank stood in high damaging AOE while taking my "glass cannon" dps and took it like a champ. Should I get a set that does damage against blocking opponents? No way, that dude was awesome and specced in a way that allowed him to tank the sod out of anything thrown at him while HEALING HIS ENTIRE GROUP.

My challenge to anyone having problems with Sorcs is to not wear shieldbreaker, go out and fight, write down the names of the sorcs you can't beat, and then count how many names you have. My theory is that you won't get past five names.

ToRelax

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Tell me then. Or do you have a reason not to?

I wasn't being obscure, at all.

Then you are now it seems. Another pointless discussion unless ZOS realizes the hypocrisy.

Derra

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

I haven't run out of arguments, I just can't be bothered to try to prove either of us right or wrong because neither of us can provide enough evidence to do so. I don't believe you know my stance on anything; I'm assuming that you've made assumptions about me, and that's why this discussion is pointless imo. I still believe my original comment you responded to was mostly factual, but you wanted to undermine it so I wanted to defend it.

Every class is learning to play and gearing up at the moment. I've tried multiple changes to my build since the last patch dropped. I wear one piece of heavy armour and have invested in the passives, I'm going to try wearing one piece of medium even though I don't have the mettle passive. I've given up harness/dampen magic and switched out degeneration for power surge. So I roll with one ward, 6 light/1 heavy, an armour buff and a heal (rapid regen). I still do well; I solo grind bone shards and kill most players that try to gank me. I wanted to stress that I'm not unkillable, but you took the opportunity to essentially tell me to gear up and l2p. I could of course slot dampen magic again to make me more survivable but I thought that's what people were complaining about, and I still don't think that would make me unkillalbe by high-stam weapon damage builds because the majority of their damage is physical.

Posting a screenshot of your cls from this one fight you had is not going to make me believe hardened ward is op. You didn't even mention what wards he was using. What was his shield value? Was he stacking? If so I can see how that would have made it a bit harder for you, given that you reminded me about ultimate damage. But you originally responded to a comment where I was defending hardened ward only, so I assumed the sorc that killed you was only using that. That's what I get defensive about, because I have 77cp in the bastion and 31k magicka and my hardened ward is just 9k, and it's the only ward I carry. 10k is probably the maximum value people will reach without gimping their setup but don't quote me on that. If it turns out that in a few months people are running around with 48k magicka and a 14k ward or something ridiculous like that then I still won't agree to a hardened ward nerf, because I'll still only have a 9k ward. And what about those players who can't put 77cp into bastion and only have a 6k ward? This is why we're seeing "sorcs suck" threads from console players.

Yes, he was stacking and spamming wards and since he had 17k hp, his magicka must have been quite high. Thing is, even if your ward is 6k, it's almost impossible to dps through with physical damage (assuming similiar CP on the attacker) because you can't crit on shields. Especially if you also use lightning form. So as long as you keep spamming 'em while weaving in overload light attacks, it's pretty cheesy.

Shields have no mitigation so lightning form takes only effect when you directly dmg hp. Furthermore you can not weave overload light attacks as they trigger the normal skill gcd.

If you can´t dps through a 6k ward in 1 rotation you have a whole lot of other problems with your build that are in no way related to shields.

Stikato

Xeven wrote: »

Hardend Ward is OP and yes, Overload is cheesy.

None of that has anything to do with shield breaker and how it's a terrible "solution".

You should be mad too, because now you have to dedicate five slots to counter broken mechanics.

I don't like the solution to the problem.

I'd happily trade my shield breaker in for a nerf to Hardened ward.

I want damage shields that have actually zero mitigation. Let the shields be capable of critting, and being crit.

Every effect should work against shields. Knockbacks, bleeds, etc. Fix "overflow" bug.

And I will decon my shield breaker in a sec. Until then, I'm going to use what the game gives me to counter stupid, broken, OP game design.

FriedEggSandwich

Xeven wrote: »

Hardend Ward is OP and yes, Overload is cheesy.

None of that has anything to do with shield breaker and how it's a terrible "solution".

You should be mad too, because now you have to dedicate five slots to counter broken mechanics.

How is hardened ward op if used on its own? Don't wanna argue with another sorc but I'm interested to know your stance. With the current incoming damage I would say it's just about balanced. If damage goes up in future it will need a buff imo.

Xeven

If they remove shield stacking then yes, I think hardened ward is fine as it is. I think its fine WITH shield stacking relative to the new damage output in Cyrodiil.

The argument is that you cant kill a good sorc 1v1. That might be true, but I cant kill a good magicka nightblade 1v1 either. The new 50% damage reduction has made almost every good player unkillable 1v1. It doest matter if HW is OP.

Shield breaker just makes that statement untrue for Sorcs, and that is absurd.

FriedEggSandwich

Xeven wrote: »

If they remove shield stacking then yes, I think hardened ward is fine as it is. I think its fine WITH shield stacking relative to the new damage output in Cyrodiil.

The argument is that you cant kill a good sorc 1v1. That might be true, but I cant kill a good magicka nightblade 1v1 either. The new 50% damage reduction has made almost every good player unkillable 1v1. It doest matter if HW is OP.

Shield breaker just makes that statement untrue for Sorcs, and that is absurd.

I'm ready for them to remove shield stacking I think. I still cast hardened over healing to allow healing ward to heal the most. This is necessary for IC mob fights I think, but might not be necessary for players idk. As for harness over hardened, well that should go.

Edit: shield breaker is poo but I think people will move away from it. It seems like a gimmick.

WalksAmongShadows

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

I haven't run out of arguments, I just can't be bothered to try to prove either of us right or wrong because neither of us can provide enough evidence to do so. I don't believe you know my stance on anything; I'm assuming that you've made assumptions about me, and that's why this discussion is pointless imo. I still believe my original comment you responded to was mostly factual, but you wanted to undermine it so I wanted to defend it.

Every class is learning to play and gearing up at the moment. I've tried multiple changes to my build since the last patch dropped. I wear one piece of heavy armour and have invested in the passives, I'm going to try wearing one piece of medium even though I don't have the mettle passive. I've given up harness/dampen magic and switched out degeneration for power surge. So I roll with one ward, 6 light/1 heavy, an armour buff and a heal (rapid regen). I still do well; I solo grind bone shards and kill most players that try to gank me. I wanted to stress that I'm not unkillable, but you took the opportunity to essentially tell me to gear up and l2p. I could of course slot dampen magic again to make me more survivable but I thought that's what people were complaining about, and I still don't think that would make me unkillalbe by high-stam weapon damage builds because the majority of their damage is physical.

Posting a screenshot of your cls from this one fight you had is not going to make me believe hardened ward is op. You didn't even mention what wards he was using. What was his shield value? Was he stacking? If so I can see how that would have made it a bit harder for you, given that you reminded me about ultimate damage. But you originally responded to a comment where I was defending hardened ward only, so I assumed the sorc that killed you was only using that. That's what I get defensive about, because I have 77cp in the bastion and 31k magicka and my hardened ward is just 9k, and it's the only ward I carry. 10k is probably the maximum value people will reach without gimping their setup but don't quote me on that. If it turns out that in a few months people are running around with 48k magicka and a 14k ward or something ridiculous like that then I still won't agree to a hardened ward nerf, because I'll still only have a 9k ward. And what about those players who can't put 77cp into bastion and only have a 6k ward? This is why we're seeing "sorcs suck" threads from console players.

Yes, he was stacking and spamming wards and since he had 17k hp, his magicka must have been quite high. Thing is, even if your ward is 6k, it's almost impossible to dps through with physical damage (assuming similiar CP on the attacker) because you can't crit on shields. Especially if you also use lightning form. So as long as you keep spamming 'em while weaving in overload light attacks, it's pretty cheesy.

Shields have no mitigation so lightning form takes only effect when you directly dmg hp. Furthermore you can not weave overload light attacks as they trigger the normal skill gcd.

If you can´t dps through a 6k ward in 1 rotation you have a whole lot of other problems with your build that are in no way related to shields.

Mm, though what you actually mean is shields don't take armor/spell res into account. They do have tons of mitigation from crit immunity and battle spirit (50%). So basically any build/class that utilizes crit chance, crit dmg bonus, or armor penetration from gear, skills or champion points is pretty much helpless versus them. It's also not really possible to stack pure raw damage either. So in my view, perhaps the simplest solution to balance them would be to remove critical hit immunity from shields, allow them benefit from armor/spell res, possibly adjust the numbers a bit and possibly remove the whole bleed immunity thing.

Derra

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

Well if you re-read my comment, it should be clear to you that I addressed your "facts that cannot be argued with". Your harness magicka most certainly can't be ignored by stamina users, because every single ultimate in the game (except DK leap I think) does spell damage, the amount of damage scales off either magicka or stamina, depending which is higher. It also blocks out camo hunter procs, which deal magical damage, again despite scaling off stamina/weapon damage. What makes you think I didn't use CC? Fully charged heavy attack from stealth -> extremely high damage opener with stun, sometimes over 26k dmg there already, never under 20k on non-shielded targets (he was a vamp). Mass hysteria almost instantly after immunity wears off into second break free -> we're already at the ~11 second point when the second immunity wears off, which is when I died. Can't possibly apply more CC. The problem isn't me doing enough damage, the problem is you can't for example crit on a shield, that's why the numbers are ***. Would take max 2 seconds to kill anyone without shields who has 17k hp and stands still, usually I'd pretty much oneshot them.

Discussions like this are not really worth having. Your screen shot doesn't prove anything except your opponent absorbed a lot of damage. You're just encouraging me to take a defensive position about a class I try to play conscientiously. Regardless of what you tell me or screenshots you post I'm unlikely to believe you did everything within your power to win, purely because I have so many recent experiences of people being able to kill me, 2h stam NBs for the most part. There are players who can destroy my 9k hardened ward and my 20k hp so fast I hardly have time to cc break and re-cast. I'm not claiming to be the best player, and I only have 260cp but I know my build inside out and have pvp'd for over a year, albeit casually. Telling me to l2p isn't gonna help me see your point of view.

I comment in this thread not to QQ about shieldbreaker but rather to defend the sorc class against irrational views. I have said on many occasions that I believe stacking harness on top of hardened since this latest patch is op and unnecessary, and I've given up dampen magic to try to stay true to what I believe. There are people in this thread (and other nerf-sorc threads) that believe that damage shields are exploits period, and anyone using one is bad. There are people in this forum that think sorcs are POS and should be exterminated. I hear rhetoric like "sorcs have had it good for too long, it's time for them to suffer now", I'm sure you've read similar stuff. I'm now of the opinion that if you can't deal with my 9k hardened ward + 20k hp then you do need to l2p. Btw I never tell people to l2p, but you came straight at me with it in response to what I considered a reasonable comment. Players need to be working together for balance rather than trying to assassinate each others classes. Super-sore players are now completely deluded that this set fixes the shield-stacking problem, blinded by their lust for sorc-revenge. Zos have had many opportunities to fix shield-stacking and this is what they came up with. Doesn't that make you sad?

Hey I tried to have a constructive discussion, apparently when you run out of arguments it's "not worth to discuss it anymore". I did not mean to insult you when I said perhaps it's a l2p/gear issue, I even provided more than just arbitrary numbers written in a forum post, but you clearly took this as an offense and lashed out at me. I still think there's room for you to improve either your build or playstyle because clearly you have not seen the potential stacking and spamming shields can reach. You aren't familiar with certain rather crucial game mechanics surrounding this issue either, but I am not saying you are a bad player, I don't even know you in game! I'm not on a personal crusade against sorcerers either, it's just whenever I find something detrimental to the game, I try to propose changes to fix it.

I haven't run out of arguments, I just can't be bothered to try to prove either of us right or wrong because neither of us can provide enough evidence to do so. I don't believe you know my stance on anything; I'm assuming that you've made assumptions about me, and that's why this discussion is pointless imo. I still believe my original comment you responded to was mostly factual, but you wanted to undermine it so I wanted to defend it.

Every class is learning to play and gearing up at the moment. I've tried multiple changes to my build since the last patch dropped. I wear one piece of heavy armour and have invested in the passives, I'm going to try wearing one piece of medium even though I don't have the mettle passive. I've given up harness/dampen magic and switched out degeneration for power surge. So I roll with one ward, 6 light/1 heavy, an armour buff and a heal (rapid regen). I still do well; I solo grind bone shards and kill most players that try to gank me. I wanted to stress that I'm not unkillable, but you took the opportunity to essentially tell me to gear up and l2p. I could of course slot dampen magic again to make me more survivable but I thought that's what people were complaining about, and I still don't think that would make me unkillalbe by high-stam weapon damage builds because the majority of their damage is physical.

Posting a screenshot of your cls from this one fight you had is not going to make me believe hardened ward is op. You didn't even mention what wards he was using. What was his shield value? Was he stacking? If so I can see how that would have made it a bit harder for you, given that you reminded me about ultimate damage. But you originally responded to a comment where I was defending hardened ward only, so I assumed the sorc that killed you was only using that. That's what I get defensive about, because I have 77cp in the bastion and 31k magicka and my hardened ward is just 9k, and it's the only ward I carry. 10k is probably the maximum value people will reach without gimping their setup but don't quote me on that. If it turns out that in a few months people are running around with 48k magicka and a 14k ward or something ridiculous like that then I still won't agree to a hardened ward nerf, because I'll still only have a 9k ward. And what about those players who can't put 77cp into bastion and only have a 6k ward? This is why we're seeing "sorcs suck" threads from console players.

Yes, he was stacking and spamming wards and since he had 17k hp, his magicka must have been quite high. Thing is, even if your ward is 6k, it's almost impossible to dps through with physical damage (assuming similiar CP on the attacker) because you can't crit on shields. Especially if you also use lightning form. So as long as you keep spamming 'em while weaving in overload light attacks, it's pretty cheesy.

Shields have no mitigation so lightning form takes only effect when you directly dmg hp. Furthermore you can not weave overload light attacks as they trigger the normal skill gcd.

If you can´t dps through a 6k ward in 1 rotation you have a whole lot of other problems with your build that are in no way related to shields.

Mm, though what you actually mean is shields don't take armor/spell res into account. They do have tons of mitigation from crit immunity and battle spirit (50%). So basically any build/class that utilizes crit chance, crit dmg bonus, or armor penetration from gear, skills or champion points is pretty much helpless versus them. It's also not really possible to stack pure raw damage either. So in my view, perhaps the simplest solution to balance them would be to remove critical hit immunity from shields, allow them benefit from armor/spell res, possibly adjust the numbers a bit and possibly remove the whole bleed immunity thing.

Since shields can not crit on cast i don´t know where you´re coming from? It´s a wasted stat for both attacker and defender. So for someone using shields as defense crit, armor, spellresist are worthless as defense. You see what i´m doing here?

Let me assure you if you shields to mitigate dmg with armor an spellresist you´re going to have a hell of a bad time against heavy armor sorcerers. This would be a change totally screwing over the whole system currently in place requiring balancing efforts they´re simply not able and/or willing to make.

I agree on dots and bleeds. They´re not particularly strong in ESO anyway there is no point in making them even weaker vs shields.