Shield Breaker - AKA "I win button"

killingspreeb16_ESO

Still need to see a good sorc die instantly to a shieldbreaker user,streak daedric curse frag is alredy 50% of the enemy health(if not more). I still don't see the problem with this set ,im planning to craft a set for v16 anyways,after playing with shieldbreaker if i win against sorc (that is not a target dummy backpedaler and keep reapply shield forever)is not because of that anyways,barely i got a kill on a sorc with shieldbreaker i find this set more effective against dk and templar

Tankqull

Francescolg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Would you mind sharing what the counter to breath of life of a templar is, because when you come telling me healdebuffs i´ll have to break something.

Soulac wrote: »

all they did was spamming cleanse / BoL. There is nothing you could do in a situation like that. They don't run oom anyway.

Funny how people reduce anti-heal mechanics to heal-debuffs alone, I am sorry but that demonstrates your tunnel-vision way to think. Also, what other players wrote, that "Sorcerers have only their Hardened Ward and Bolt Escape for defense", is untrue and it has been one of the main-arguments, which lead to the current situation: ZOS not touching Hardened Ward + capless stats! The second main argument was: "healing ward is the real problem", which was also false. ALL dirty tricks in order not to loose that Hardened Ward! (but it's another story..) The best and last argument is: "this game is not balanced for 1:1!"..lol

1. Breath of Life is INTERRUPTABLE.
-> most sorcs went over to pure dw-instant builds or similar. Many stopped using Crushing Shock, which basically is the MAIN counter to Breath of Life spammers but in this thread, you spread false information: as if heal-debuff alone was the MAIN counter to heals.. such BS! This comes mostly from people, who refuse to take dd-interrupt skills on their bars, because they want just the "max spell/weapon" dmg obtainable...

2. Heal Debuffs are only (!) one of several ways to counter heals. So you got: heal debuffs, interrupt and CC / Silence, as counters. If you'd use (and I'm sure many do it) several heal-debuffs, combined with interrupt-mechanics, than cleanse+BoL spammers ARE no problem.

4. And to end this "templars spam such big heals"-argument: there are so many heal-debuff sets (also disease dmg), ultmates, skills, passives, even CP skills, etc., that I can not sum up all anti-heal possibilities. The trick lies in using them together with a good way to interrupt the healer, which is when skill comes into play. Every bow user can seriously harm a Templar with ease, any NB can. (and do not forget all Blazing Shield nurfs for pvp, which are a result of the "sorcerer + stamina dd's problem", as Blazing Shield has never been to strong in this game, except for Emperors and "tanky" hp-builds)

4. Assuming that the Shieldbreaker Set is an ANTI-absorb shield, I'll say that any SET which adds disease damage or healing-reduction is an ANTI-heal shield. From that follows that we've got way more anti-heal sets than anti-absorb shield sets.. So stop 'this' discussion about one singular anti-absorb shield set!

5. Sorcerers defensive abilities ARE MORE than just teleporting and shields. (self heal mechanics, HoTs, dodge, daedric mines, pets, etc. etc.)

6. What we're experiencing 'here', in this thread, is all a result of ZOS's unwillingness to bring Sorcerers skills/mechanics in line sooner. Sorcerers have been on the bright side of the game way longer than necessary, and nurfs where not done sufficiently. Absorb Shield spamming was there all the time before 1.6, also "unkillable sorcerers" were no 1.6 patch phenomena.

BoL is not ruptable, healing ritual and its morphs is but not Breath of Life.
out of all 10(? hope i did not miss counted) healing abilities exactly two are ruptable templars healing ritual and the sorcs pet heal as you can interupt their pet charm beside that all heals are instants and uninteruptable.

cc etc is great but with the reduced dmg you are unable to burst anybody down from 80% to 0 within the short cc/silence time the temp needs to breakfree hell i can sitout all 4sec ccs without hasitation against 90% of the playerbase on my temp.

i´m still lacking any proof that desease dmg has a healing debuff effect - sure in other games thats the case but when ever i tested it in ESO(beta,1.2, 1.4, 1.6) i have never observed a healing reduction after beeing affected by a desease attack... desease like poison, flame or cold dmg is just a nother dmg type and nothing more.

i must be missing sth(honestly) wich healing reduction set?

WalksAmongShadows

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

kadar

Kh0ll wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

BUT, how long does it take to 100%-0 a Sorc if ALL you are doing is light attacking? Isn't there ample time to counter attack(i.e. frag-to-face)? Especially if the spammer is doing nothing but light attacks?

I met several times the same player, archer NB, which has a macro scale X light attack spam in record time, so that in less than 0.5 seconds I went from 100% to 0% PV. It's like a FPS game...

I met him 1v1, nothing to do.
I met him at a 2 v 2 improvised in a district. He instant kill me.

Make a 4/8 secondes on this set a little less broken even if the same concept is a scandal.

I met several other players with this set without macro on light attack, escape is the only option.
not try to fight, just run away.

I like...don't even believe this is real! xD
HOW many light attacks did he do in...

less than 0.5 seconds

I don't care how many light attacks he was doing to you...in a 1v1 situation it is not hard to stop someone from light attacking... Especially if he was MACROING light attacks?!?! Like you say he was...

kadar

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Question: How much of this is hype? --People reacting to a few dramatic screenshots that give no context to the actual situation.
How many people are actually running this set? And how useful is it actually?-- A weighted bow user vs. your typical shield spammer, of course the result is obvious. But does this situation actually exist outside of a few screenshots?

BUT, how long does it take to 100%-0 a Sorc if ALL you are doing is light attacking? Isn't there ample time to counter attack(i.e. frag-to-face)? Especially if the spammer is doing nothing but light attacks?

I'm legitimately curious. Cause even after all the hype about how OP shieldbreaker is, I couldn't bring myself to buy the set last night! I'd be giving up a flat 250- ish weapon damage from my Hunding's Rage 5 piece! I need mah weapon damage!

Anyone else not sure they want to use it?

This is coming from a sorc who has argued that since 1.6 they have been stupid good.

There are not a lot of people out there running this set (at least as of yet). This might be more an issue of feasibility rather than choice as a VR16 set requires a decent amount of farming and while people who main a ranged stam (the best build for this set) would have those resources by now, those who play multiple characters probably do not. The first 3 set bonus are pretty good so a 5 piece user isn't exactly making a sacrifice to wear this, especially considering the prevalence of shields aside from sorcerers in Cyrodiil.

During the PTS phase, I basically had the same attitude as you did: wearing it is an investment, shields need some sort of counter, let's wait and see, etc. I usually run in groups so I don't have extensive experience against this set, though there have been three occasions in which I was in a 1v1 Vs. an opponent with this set.

As for how long it takes to burst from 100%-0, it does take time, enough time for a sorcerer to react. The problem is most sorcerers are not going to have them means to counter and react accordingly. If healing ward was simply a heal as opposed to a shield, I would have definitely been able to counter the opponent by eschewing hardened ward and healing when necessary, which I think is probably the intended mechanic of this set. I tired to go on the offensive to put pressure on the shieldbreaker user and rely on blood magic and surge procs to heal while doing damage, but this route is impractical against even someone with limited experience as they are still putting notable damage against me that I cant mitigate and possess limited means to heal through, whereas their skills still work fine against me. So in short, yes, there is ample time to counter-attack, though you have to fight without using your two best defensive skills.

What a sorcerer has to do currently is avoid fighting people who use this set (what I now do ... boring and stupid, yet effective) or slot blessing of restoration / mutagen instead of healing ward (which does nothing to address other problems: why should a single set in the game not just render a critical skill [the only burst heal available to non-templars] moot, but actually make it harmful to use ... especially since someone else could put the ward on you). This is what Dragonknights have to do now, which is equally stupid btw. A sorcerer who opts to go the "little" resto heal route does so without the innate defensive skills and passives that a Dragonknight has. So while that may make is possible to fight a shieldbreaker set user, you now have to slot three skills from the restoration staff bar, even though you are not a healer and in essence reorient your build and your class to deal with one armor set, which I do not think is intelligent, let alone, compelling game design. I also do not think hitting spamming the light attack button and doing 2K irresistible damage is intelligent or compelling game design, but apparently that opinion is not shared by many people who have been frustrated by sorcerers for the past six months.

This set is typical of ZoS's penchant for implementing dubious band-aid measures to deal balance complaints rather than identifying and correcting the root game mechanics that are the cause of Cyrodiil's problems. Shields are still stupid strong against everyone else but stupidly self defeating against someone with this set.

Thank you for an intelligent response to my post instead of the all to common, "Here's a funny meme that makes you look stupid"--answer. Cheers mate.

And I think you hit it on the head with,

I also do not think hitting spamming the light attack button and doing 2K irresistible damage is intelligent or compelling game design, but apparently that opinion is not shared by many people who have been frustrated by sorcerers for the past six months.

Most of the people loving shield breaker are enjoying their sweet revenge against a mechanic they feel has been unbalanced for the past 6 months. I would fall in the former crowd, honestly. It's...hard to kill a skilled Sorc pre-shield breaker(Especially 1v1). DPS and CC are shield counters right? We all know how hard it is to DPS a skilled Sorc (they don't exactly stand there and let you hit them). I'm tired of being one of TEN people getting tanked by the glass cannon Sorc.

I am still somewhat unconvinced seeing as how I've seen very little evidence in game, and most of the "evidence" on the forums sounds like people lashing out after a nerf (a perfectly normal thing to do). But your personal experiences that you iterated definitely help paint a clearer picture for me, so thanks.

We can complain about what has been done as much as we want. But what about moving forward? ZOS (instead of addressing the REAL problem of shields like they should have) went ahead and made a set that counters the shield spam-- Hard counters it-- like so many have vehemently pointed out.

Where do they go from here? Remove the set?-- not likely. Nerf it? --maybe. But then it will be useless won't it? Aaaand we'll be right back where we were pre- IC. Shield breakers only benefits are 1) You counter shield spammers and 2) it's V16 (or can be). Why would anyone wear a set with a 5 piece armor set that does, "some small amount a damage through a shield sometimes." I certainly won't...

"Hope for a fix to these problems when Orsinium comes out," is...kinda depressing.

kadar

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

It is Combat Logs like this that make players long for Shield Breaker as their salvation.

rfennell_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

And that's a wrap.

That's how it is versus any sorc without shield breaker that knows how to gear and has a good build.

Thing about it is all you need to do (still) is stack magicka and it's instant dps and instant invulnerability.

If it wasn't for shield breaker, that is.

Is shield breaker a perfect solution? Thing is, that's the wrong question as perfection is a myth. It's a solution, one as imperfect as any other solution.

CP5

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

And that's a wrap.

That's how it is versus any sorc without shield breaker that knows how to gear and has a good build.

Thing about it is all you need to do (still) is stack magicka and it's instant dps and instant invulnerability.

If it wasn't for shield breaker, that is.

Is shield breaker a perfect solution? Thing is, that's the wrong question as perfection is a myth. It's a solution, one as imperfect as any other solution.

I disagree, there are many other routes ZOS could have taken to make shields a part of the game that weren't so one dimensional. But guess they went with the quick, blanket band-aid fix, now i'm just waiting for the cloak breaker set. Who needs skills and strategies when you can dress for success?

Kobaal

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. This picture is worth 54,569 words in 11 seconds.

rfennell_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

I disagree, there are many other routes ZOS could have taken to make shields a part of the game that weren't so one dimensional. But guess they went with the quick, blanket band-aid fix, now i'm just waiting for the cloak breaker set. Who needs skills and strategies when you can dress for success?

the quick blanket band-aid fix is still a fix.

It's certainly not an I win button though.

If the argument continues as nerf shield breaker, nerf shield breaker, nerf shield breaker and no realistic and viable solutions can be made.. well, shield breaker is working.

I'll admit that most of the "problems" people have with it are more with getting KBed by it while low health but shields stack to high heaven or the sheer rapidity that light attack from a bow can be done with. Truth is light attacks with bows are wonky as all hell, every now and then without doing anything untoward you sometimes end up with these bow machine gun light attacks. It happens most noticeably at Dolmens, but Ive seen it occur everywhere at some point.

Stikato

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Many of you always said, "well how would sorcerers like it is a potion nullified bolt escape"? I'd prefer that very much to this trash set. Go ahead and waste your pot to prevent me from bolt escaping for 15 seconds. I'll be more than happy to stick around and fight you provided you gear something that actually requires a modicum of skill to defeat a shielded opponent.

You mean like every gap closer counters bolt escape? Or how you can only streak 3 times before the cost gets ridiculously high?

Stikato wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I have been watching this thread and have remained quiet for the most part. No reasonable Sorc is going to sit here and tell you that damage shields do not need a balance pass. They do. We know that and you know that.

There must not be that many reasonable sorcs then. I don't know how many of you said "L2P" and "attack the stamina pool" and other complete nonsense. None of you took the time to detail the multitude of skills that shields themselves break.

Shields break bleeds
Shields break crits
Shields break dots
Shields break ultimate gain (or did)
Shields broke many 5-piece set bonuses

Now, there is a 5 piece set that hurts shield users. And you are expecting sympathy or change?

I pvp'd in Memorial for a couple hours the other night with v15 gold shieldbreaker

I did 10M total damage
150k was shieldbreaker

(I will do some more runs and post more data if you want)

Say some of that was against mobs. Hell, say half of it. So, in the exaggerated example, that's 5 million vs players, with 150k being shieldbreaker. What's that, 3% bonus damage overall?

I'm sure in a couple situations, it led to a win. But you act there is an overall threat to the game with this set. And I don't see it.
Should this have been handled differently? Of course. But this is the solution. You can argue for perfection if you want but you will never get it. Many sorcs are still out there, kicking ass with magicka.

Are they as powerful as before? No. Because they were OP before, as you yourself point out. This is what a nerf feels like. It never should have come to this, but it is what is.

FWIW: my idea was to make shields function almost exactly like health.

Give them mitigation of the user. Make them able to be crit. Allow bleeds etc. So pluses and minuses. THEN you can adjust them properly to be reasonable. The sheer fact that they were implemented in such a weird, undocumented way, is what has led to all this confusion and BS.

Shields break bleeds > intended because you shield yourself to prevent getting stabbed
Shields break crits > shields cant crit when casted so there's no benefit on either side
Shields break dots > this has been fixed for most dots
Shields break ultimate gain (or did) > fixed
Shields broke many 5-piece set bonuses > fixed for most sets

Damage against NPCs should not be compared to damage to players because his is completely different. I can crit for 17k with cfrags against NPCs, players only take 6k crit damage with the same cfrags. If you compare that to 2k unresistable damage my cfrags seems weak because its faster, cheaper and easier to do 3 light attacks then to proc cfrags and hit someone with a crit.

The 3% (150k of 2m damage) says nothing if you dont have data how much damage you did to players and how much damage was single target. Im pretty sure everyone is aware of the fact that the 5pc bonus is useless against NPCs and it doesnt work if you spam Steel Tornado in AOE situations.

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

The fact that ZOS hasn't had a reaction, other than to say on ESO live that they are happy with how the set is performing, proves they do care, and are in fact happy with the set.

Look, I analyze numbers at my job. I can't asked to do it for free. I posted what I posted simply as informational. I have no idea how much was done vs. players, vs. mobs, vs. AOE, vs. single-target etc.

It is what it is. I played a night in Memorial, on Azura's, in prime time, and did maybe 3% damage with shieldbreaker. Hell I was hoping it would be more.

If you just want to be argumentative, have at it.

CP5

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I disagree, there are many other routes ZOS could have taken to make shields a part of the game that weren't so one dimensional. But guess they went with the quick, blanket band-aid fix, now i'm just waiting for the cloak breaker set. Who needs skills and strategies when you can dress for success?

the quick blanket band-aid fix is still a fix.

It's certainly not an I win button though.

If the argument continues as nerf shield breaker, nerf shield breaker, nerf shield breaker and no realistic and viable solutions can be made.. well, shield breaker is working.

I'll admit that most of the "problems" people have with it are more with getting KBed by it while low health but shields stack to high heaven or the sheer rapidity that light attack from a bow can be done with. Truth is light attacks with bows are wonky as all hell, every now and then without doing anything untoward you sometimes end up with these bow machine gun light attacks. It happens most noticeably at Dolmens, but Ive seen it occur everywhere at some point.

People have thrown out a few ideas but they are drown out by people saying "anyone who doesn't like this set is a shield stacking sorc that want their easy mode back." If people just sit by while ZOS implements this kind of band-aid fix then they will make more. So we can either be vocal and let them know this is a short sighted idea, or we can sit by saying 'least its still a fix' and then get more "solutions" like this one later on. Still waiting for my cloak breaker set (cowardly nb's always running around).

rfennell_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

People have thrown out a few ideas but they are drown out by people saying "anyone who doesn't like this set is a shield stacking sorc that want their easy mode back." If people just sit by while ZOS implements this kind of band-aid fix then they will make more. So we can either be vocal and let them know this is a short sighted idea, or we can sit by saying 'least its still a fix' and then get more "solutions" like this one later on. Still waiting for my cloak breaker set (cowardly nb's always running around).

Well, the vocal minority moaning about shield breaker are certainly shield stacking sorcs that want their easy mode back.

I've yet to see a realistic "solution" past some sort of "this set needs nerfing, no fair I rock and should be able to solo 5 people because I rock" and then some trivial caveat about how the entire shielding system needs a redesign, usually followed by some sort of tepid insult directed at nightblades when the set isn't nightblade only at all. I guess the nightblade hate is mostly a nightblades are the only class that can pursue and finish sorcs off, which is an even bigger issue than shieldbreaker is on it's own.

Alcast

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

Sorcs dont realize that they basically get "damage immune" with spamming skill>shield>skill>shield>skill>shield and some frag procs inbetween.

Also, I never get why they think Shieldstacking is the problem, the real problem is shieldSPAMMING.

Pre IC Patch I needed a 40kburst damage to kill sorcs, if I could not do that then bam 20k shield back and I could wait till I had mmy ulti back.

ThisOnePosts

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

People have thrown out a few ideas but they are drown out by people saying "anyone who doesn't like this set is a shield stacking sorc that want their easy mode back." If people just sit by while ZOS implements this kind of band-aid fix then they will make more. So we can either be vocal and let them know this is a short sighted idea, or we can sit by saying 'least its still a fix' and then get more "solutions" like this one later on. Still waiting for my cloak breaker set (cowardly nb's always running around).

Well, the vocal minority moaning about shield breaker are certainly shield stacking sorcs that want their easy mode back.

I've yet to see a realistic "solution" past some sort of "this set needs nerfing, no fair I rock and should be able to solo 5 people because I rock" and then some trivial caveat about how the entire shielding system needs a redesign, usually followed by some sort of tepid insult directed at nightblades when the set isn't nightblade only at all. I guess the nightblade hate is mostly a nightblades are the only class that can pursue and finish sorcs off, which is an even bigger issue than shieldbreaker is on it's own.

While I get what you're saying, however I definitely don't see Shieldbreaker as an issue AT ALL as long as shields are allowed and I don't see NBs being able to catch Sorcs as an issue whatsoever, as Sorcs are already escaping the other 2 classes like crazy. There should be counters to everything in this game. NBs have counters to basically all of their important abilities. So do weapons (ya know, block). Shield stacking has gotten out of control and Shield Breaker set isn't enough.. but at least it's something. Now, Sorcs will have to actually learn to play.

Guess what? I've been shielded by other players during large battles and saw my health dropping. I knew it was shield breaker, so what did I do? Stun the person attacking me of course and the shield was gone quickly. Shield Breaker doesn't give the wearer an "I Win", it gives them a fair fight vs shields. Shield Stacking = I Win (usually) or at the very least (I can survive this with ease) UNLESS they are fighting someone who can counter it which means they will need to learn how to play properly and stop relying on shields.

On my Sorc, I don't even shield stack, I keep 1 shield on my 2nd bar just in case and if I see my health dropping while the shield is up, you bet your *** I won't be re-applying it instead I'll be fighting and using the rest of my 2 bars (3 w/ overload), as is intended in PVP areas.

The whining has got to stop. All this small vocal minority is going to do is ruin shields for themselves in ALL situations. Imagine, a CD from using shields after using one? Ohhh the tears. The game is as balanced as it has ever been, time to L2P, make adjustments to play-style accordingly, and enjoy this balanced game that we have been waiting for quite a while to find this level of an even playing field!

Stikato

Still doing about 1-2% of my overall damage with Shieldbreaker. I animation cancel light attacks with everything. A lot of times, it doesn't even seem to fire. Seems to work really well against Hardened Ward, and not as often against Healing Ward and Sun Shield. I'm just relying on FTC text, and Recount to do the summary, but based on that it is proc'ing a lot less than I thought it would.

And yeah, the only people that are dying really fast are those that just insist on re-applying their shield over and over again...

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

The set is not broken and is long needed. Every class has a counter for their core mechanic except sorcs. Well now they have and are equal to all other classes. And thats why you sorcs are whining... Because you are not invincible anymore

Would you mind sharing what the counter to breath of life of a templar is, because when you come telling me healdebuffs i´ll have to break something.

To be honest heal debuffs work pretty well against breath of life.
If I run Dw, which has more potential dmg output than S&B, I can barely get these Templars down, but on S&B I don't have any problems.
I'd wish for more counters, especially for more interruptable skills tho.

Yesterday I fought a bunch of battle leveled Templars and all they did was spamming cleanse / BoL. There is nothing you could do in a situation like that. They don't run oom anyway.
Heal debuff is a good counter, but only if you got reasonable dmg output and not an enemy knowing how to get rid of the debuff.

The problem with healdebuffs is: They´re not accessible to some magica builds.
Also templars get a class based selfpurge for 5 negative effects thats also a 30% healincrease on themselves.

Septimus_Magna

Stikato wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Many of you always said, "well how would sorcerers like it is a potion nullified bolt escape"? I'd prefer that very much to this trash set. Go ahead and waste your pot to prevent me from bolt escaping for 15 seconds. I'll be more than happy to stick around and fight you provided you gear something that actually requires a modicum of skill to defeat a shielded opponent.

You mean like every gap closer counters bolt escape? Or how you can only streak 3 times before the cost gets ridiculously high?

Stikato wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I have been watching this thread and have remained quiet for the most part. No reasonable Sorc is going to sit here and tell you that damage shields do not need a balance pass. They do. We know that and you know that.

There must not be that many reasonable sorcs then. I don't know how many of you said "L2P" and "attack the stamina pool" and other complete nonsense. None of you took the time to detail the multitude of skills that shields themselves break.

Shields break bleeds
Shields break crits
Shields break dots
Shields break ultimate gain (or did)
Shields broke many 5-piece set bonuses

Now, there is a 5 piece set that hurts shield users. And you are expecting sympathy or change?

I pvp'd in Memorial for a couple hours the other night with v15 gold shieldbreaker

I did 10M total damage
150k was shieldbreaker

(I will do some more runs and post more data if you want)

Say some of that was against mobs. Hell, say half of it. So, in the exaggerated example, that's 5 million vs players, with 150k being shieldbreaker. What's that, 3% bonus damage overall?

I'm sure in a couple situations, it led to a win. But you act there is an overall threat to the game with this set. And I don't see it.
Should this have been handled differently? Of course. But this is the solution. You can argue for perfection if you want but you will never get it. Many sorcs are still out there, kicking ass with magicka.

Are they as powerful as before? No. Because they were OP before, as you yourself point out. This is what a nerf feels like. It never should have come to this, but it is what is.

FWIW: my idea was to make shields function almost exactly like health.

Give them mitigation of the user. Make them able to be crit. Allow bleeds etc. So pluses and minuses. THEN you can adjust them properly to be reasonable. The sheer fact that they were implemented in such a weird, undocumented way, is what has led to all this confusion and BS.

Shields break bleeds > intended because you shield yourself to prevent getting stabbed
Shields break crits > shields cant crit when casted so there's no benefit on either side
Shields break dots > this has been fixed for most dots
Shields break ultimate gain (or did) > fixed
Shields broke many 5-piece set bonuses > fixed for most sets

Damage against NPCs should not be compared to damage to players because his is completely different. I can crit for 17k with cfrags against NPCs, players only take 6k crit damage with the same cfrags. If you compare that to 2k unresistable damage my cfrags seems weak because its faster, cheaper and easier to do 3 light attacks then to proc cfrags and hit someone with a crit.

The 3% (150k of 2m damage) says nothing if you dont have data how much damage you did to players and how much damage was single target. Im pretty sure everyone is aware of the fact that the 5pc bonus is useless against NPCs and it doesnt work if you spam Steel Tornado in AOE situations.

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

The fact that ZOS hasn't had a reaction, other than to say on ESO live that they are happy with how the set is performing, proves they do care, and are in fact happy with the set.

Look, I analyze numbers at my job. I can't asked to do it for free. I posted what I posted simply as informational. I have no idea how much was done vs. players, vs. mobs, vs. AOE, vs. single-target etc.

It is what it is. I played a night in Memorial, on Azura's, in prime time, and did maybe 3% damage with shieldbreaker. Hell I was hoping it would be more.

If you just want to be argumentative, have at it.

The intend/purpose of the set, a counter to shields, is fine. The way its implemented is just wrong, make it do extra damage to shields or reduce the shield value when its recasted but unresistable damage is stupid. The word 'unresistable' says enough, you cant do anything about it if you happen to be a sorc.

CP5

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

People have thrown out a few ideas but they are drown out by people saying "anyone who doesn't like this set is a shield stacking sorc that want their easy mode back." If people just sit by while ZOS implements this kind of band-aid fix then they will make more. So we can either be vocal and let them know this is a short sighted idea, or we can sit by saying 'least its still a fix' and then get more "solutions" like this one later on. Still waiting for my cloak breaker set (cowardly nb's always running around).

Well, the vocal minority moaning about shield breaker are certainly shield stacking sorcs that want their easy mode back.

I've yet to see a realistic "solution" past some sort of "this set needs nerfing, no fair I rock and should be able to solo 5 people because I rock" and then some trivial caveat about how the entire shielding system needs a redesign, usually followed by some sort of tepid insult directed at nightblades when the set isn't nightblade only at all. I guess the nightblade hate is mostly a nightblades are the only class that can pursue and finish sorcs off, which is an even bigger issue than shieldbreaker is on it's own.

I don't like this set, my primary sorc is and always has been stamina based and not once have I intentionally used more than one shield, and I don't like this set. Shields needed an overhaul, something to make them part of the game not a one dimensional health buffer. Heals are dynamic, some are instant others over time, they can be debuffed and become more beneficial with higher resistances (which can be reduced). All of these make heals something that people can deal with in a dynamic setting. Shields weren't, if they offered similar counters from in game systems they would have been better, but this quick fix is lazy and if people keep cheering this set on then ZOS will make more.

And why do people think this set only applies to sorcs? The class is heavily dependent on shields to survive given "amazing" the sources of healing are on the class, but what about, oh I don't know, everyone else? There are 3 champion point passives that give shields, generally when they are needed most, there are armor sets that give shields, again when people need them badly. There are support skills that anyone using this set will take advantage of when used because of the shielding component. But sure, lets all ignore those because we can get revenge against the oh so hated class, and be sure to give ZOS a thumbs up on this set, that way they'll know that you want more like it. We'll just have to see how many sets ZOS can create that follow this ones standard, so please, encourage them.

Lava_Croft

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Septimus_Magna

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

Francescolg

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Why do you keep repeating the same argument again and again and again? (google "empty signifier")

There are more ways to defend in this game, one example is dodge-chance! If you build your arguments up on lies, you can not be taken for serious! If you are not able to "find" some other ways to defend yourself, maybe this game is not suited for you!

The thing is: that all classes, exept you (!), did always have to think about, where to invest their resources either stamina, magicka or health points. For the sorc, this "way of calibrating your char stats" has been = GO FULL MAGICKA, no matter what.. (sorry, for repeating that argument, see how it feels to repeat an argument endlessly?)

The benefit of having a Hardened Ward, which scales with your MAIN STAT magicka + all the new goodies that came with the last two patches (REMOVAL of CAPS, vr 16 gear, better armor enchants, imba Molag Kena set, etc), is significant for PvP!
--> All those "new patches" BUFF sorcerer's dmg and their class shield AT THE SAME TIME, so that players are actually going up to 40-45k magicka with ease, so their Hardened Ward keeps getting buffed..
If ZOS would bring Hardened Ward in line (^-^) with other absorb shields, so they make them ALL scale with Health Ponts, you cries would be even worse..!

Why aren't you happy with what you got with the last two patches, ain't it never enough!? Is a new set such evil for you? Since the days of Daoc, sorc's have been drama queens, nothin'else! Remember the fire mages in Daoc, when they got their first fireball nurf... loooool Behind all that drama, sorcerers are getting buffed and many things remain "untouched" (un-nurfed), as a result of the drama.

_adhyffbjjjf12

The drama comes from the lack of critical thinking by morons who seem to think a different species of man plays sorcerers (though strangely they stop bring a deama queen when they play other classes right lol?)

Your argument is that magic sorcerers could split resource with stamina, well that's called a stamina sorcerer, the issue is magic sorcerers who want to specialise in magic skills. Strawmen nonsense.

The issue is that magic sorcerers have been designed around low hp and magic defense, and shieldbreaker us a hack. It is not the world needs to 'ltp' Practical solution, replace spam able hardened ward with a skill that enhances armor, and defensive skills based on Makica.

Put it this way, spamming is *** gameplay that noone wants.

ToRelax

Francescolg wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Why do you keep repeating the same argument again and again and again? (google "empty signifier")

There are more ways to defend in this game, one example is dodge-chance! If you build your arguments up on lies, you can not be taken for serious! If you are not able to "find" some other ways to defend yourself, maybe this game is not suited for you!

The thing is: that all classes, exept you (!), did always have to think about, where to invest their resources either stamina, magicka or health points. For the sorc, this "way of calibrating your char stats" has been = GO FULL MAGICKA, no matter what.. (sorry, for repeating that argument, see how it feels to repeat an argument endlessly?)

The benefit of having a Hardened Ward, which scales with your MAIN STAT magicka + all the new goodies that came with the last two patches (REMOVAL of CAPS, vr 16 gear, better armor enchants, imba Molag Kena set, etc), is significant for PvP!
--> All those "new patches" BUFF sorcerer's dmg and their class shield AT THE SAME TIME, so that players are actually going up to 40-45k magicka with ease, so their Hardened Ward keeps getting buffed..
If ZOS would bring Hardened Ward in line (^-^) with other absorb shields, so they make them ALL scale with Health Ponts, you cries would be even worse..!

Why aren't you happy with what you got with the last two patches, ain't it never enough!? Is a new set such evil for you? Since the days of Daoc, sorc's have been drama queens, nothin'else! Remember the fire mages in Daoc, when they got their first fireball nurf... loooool Behind all that drama, sorcerers are getting buffed and many things remain "untouched" (un-nurfed), as a result of the drama.

So let's see how many buffs I got since launch...

Fragments
Encase (cost and range)
Rune Cage (no cast time)
Mines
Curse
Overload

And a few nerfs...

Rune Cage (can't cc imprisoned enemy)
Defensive Rune (procs on shields)
Encase (don't root moving enemies)
Boundless Storm
Fire Clench (no stun, useless morph)
Harness Magicka
Firering (both range and ult gain)
Negate
Streak (a few times)
Bound Armor (over 90% less protection, gg)
Volatile Familiar (casttime... I was hoping for fixes)
Wall of Elements
Surge
Crushing Shock
Immovable
Dodge roll (always had a focus on that in my builds)

Yeah, we should all celebrate how much ZOS is buffing Sorcs in every patch, good one.

PS: most sorcs would add Circle of Life probably, but I didn't use resto before I was pretty much forced to do so anyway...

Lava_Croft

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

FriedEggSandwich

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Fact remains; shield stacking sorcs have only ever been a problem for magicka builds, cos sorcs only stack 2 shields and one only absorbs magic, so stamina users have always been able to ignore it. Another fact remains; this set doesn't help those magicka builds who still have to deal with harness on top of hardened. Hardened Wards mitigation doesn't need toning down, and if they allowed it to be crit it would need a buff - fact. Currently my 9k Hardened Ward buys me 1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space. Another fact remains; shield breaker set does 2.1k damage when it procs, which is almost half the damage my Crystal Frags does when it procs.

Oh really? Well perhaps that's a l2p/gear issue on your end? I mean, look at this guy, he can absorb a minimum of 45k of my stamina nb's dmg 1v1 during the course of ~10 seconds. 65% crit chance completely nulled. You want to know a secret? Ultimate abilities deal magical damage even though they might scale off your stamina. The first two hits that actually got through were only because I got the jump on him. After facetanking 4150 weapon damage he proceeded to light attack a few times with overload and throw a crystal frag proc and voila, what do you know, sorcerers have rather deadly light attacks as well.



"1-1.5 hits worth of breathing space"

I don't understand; your comment didn't address anything I said, it just seemed like another sour rant. If you re-read my comment you will see that I gave you some facts that cannot be argued with, like stam users can ignore harness magicka. This is indeed a fact and cannot be argued with and me learning to play won't change it. Great screenie, I love your pastel-coloured text, but your combat log doesn't say how many times he recast the ward during that fight, he might just have been spamming it. Btw it seems like it might be a l2p issue on your end after all. If you want to break the shield you might want to try to cc them and do more than 3.5k damage. You manage a 6.5k at one point so I know you can do it, just try harder and whine less.

Edit: I don't use overload light attacks on another player. My brother plays a sorc too and if I see him using overload light attacks on a player I tell him off. They are a super cheap tactic I will admit, which is why I never use them. Guess what? I don't use crushing shock either cos I believe the spam to be a super-cheap tactic too. I don't even carry harness/dampen magic anymore. 9k hardened ward though, absolutely nothing wrong with that and if you have an issue with it then you need to rethink your strats.

FriedEggSandwich

Interesting that you only have to be a sorc in this thread for people to assume you're here whining about shield-breaker. I'm glad there's now a hard counter to wards, I want balance and I want people to stop whining about sorcs, so anything that helps this is good. I just want people to realise that 2.1k unresistable damage is no small amount in the latest patch, given that it's about half the damage of my velocious curse, and nearly half the damage of my frags.

ToRelax

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

As an enchantment it hass a cooldown and does less damage. Shieldbreaker would be pretty useless 1v1 if it dealt less than 1k damage to the health pool. Wich is why you can't really balance it that way...

Lava_Croft

People complaining about Shield Breaker ruining the game for builds using Shields are just as bad as people saying Shield Breaker is a good sol

ToRelax wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

As an enchantment it hass a cooldown and does less damage. Shieldbreaker would be pretty useless 1v1 if it dealt less than 1k damage to the health pool. Wich is why you can't really balance it that way...

I was kind of openly thinking about Shield Breaker + Pact's Bow for 3k unresistable damage.

ToRelax

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The fact that there hasnt been a single reaction from ZOS in any shieldbreaker thread proves that they dont care about class balance or are too blind to see the problems.

They said on ESO Live that Shield Breaker is not a problem in their eyes. Judging from the threads on Shield Breaker and the low amount of different people actually complaining about it, I think this is a fair assessment.

Kris, you are a competent pvper/dueler, how would you guess your chances with 5pc shieldbreaker on you stam NB against a magicka sorc of the same skill level? You would probably win 9/10 fights because sorcs have nothing but a shield to defend themselves.

Again, it fine to make a counter to the shield stacking builds but the implementation is just wrong. What other skill or set does 10% unresistable damage directly to the targets health?

I didnt see the last ESO live but I suppose my second statement is the one then, they're too blind to see the problems.

It's a very small group of people that wants to make Shield Breaker look like a much bigger problem that it really is. Shield Breaker merely requires people who have been relying blindly on damage shields shields to at least come up with some kind of backup plan for when they run into someone using this set. Yes, it's a cheesy set of gear, but I don't think it's any less cheesy than damage shields.

Doesn't Pact's Bow also do unresistable damage?

As an enchantment it hass a cooldown and does less damage. Shieldbreaker would be pretty useless 1v1 if it dealt less than 1k damage to the health pool. Wich is why you can't really balance it that way...

I was kind of openly thinking about Shield Breaker + Pact's Bow for 3k unresistable damage.

I still have one for sale.