How to balance Sorcs

Stamden

Sorcerers are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a Sorc is that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (DKs missing an escape, NBs missing defensive ability/self heal, etc). Sorcs have great Offense with things like Frags, velocious Curse, mages fury. Great defense with shield stacking and BoL morph. And great mobility with Bolt escape. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things like CF proc.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile. Every other class in this game follows this rule too:

DK:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Yes: Damage, Defence
No: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Yes: Damage, Escape/Mobility
No: Defence

Sorc
Yes: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
No: ?


Do you see the problem? No other class has anything close to what Sorcs have in mobility, yet Sorcs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Shield stacking is way too strong and Bolt Escape can be spammed way too much without soft caps. This is why 1.6 benefitted Sorcs so much. Every other class has to balance out either stamina or magika with health, but shields alone make health irrelevant for Sorc. You can keep stacking magika and gain more offense, defense, and mobility. Either shield stacking or BE need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down. Considering BE is unique to Sorcs it makes sense to leave that be, meaning the best course of action would be to adjust shields. My top changes Zenimax could make to tone down Sorcs are as follows:

1. Make all shields scale off health.
2. Add a small cast time to shields so they can't be spammed as easily and there is counterplay to them (interrupting)
3. Add increasing mana cost per BE if cast within x amount of seconds (think Kassadin)

Thoughts?

Erock25

NBs are more overpowered than Sorc, thanks.

ToRelax

Erock25 wrote: »

NBs are more overpowered than Sorc, thanks.

^This, and the main problem are infinite resources, you don't get "balance" without fixing that *** first, and I predict it will hit those builds the hardest wich you think are "OP" right now.

GilGalad

Sorcs have ohne huge weakness: their limited stamina pool. If BOL would work right it might be OP but it's a joke compared to cloak which makes you dodge all projectiles even if you are detected through a detection potion. There is nothing more powerful than well played stamina NBs who have an extremely good offense + infinite dodge rolling + cloak + unblock able fear. And btw there is a counter to sorcs that are trying to escape: every charge. The sorc hurts hisself because the charges (2H or Shield) get more powerful at a bigger distance.

coolermh

Scale hardened ward off health and decrease the distance of bolt escape by 1/4. Problems solved.

Ezareth

I'm just going to go ahead and steal your argument from another thread you started:

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Old Post:
TL:DR Buffing/nerfing classes before stamina and magika builds get balanced is only going to make the game more unbalanced.

Stamden

Nice find! But Stamina and Magika builds are both viable now so now we can work on balancing Sorcs.

CP5

Also. if anyone has an opinion on this, does the current "all powerful sorcerer" have anything aside from this general combo going for them? This build that everyone is going on about? Because in 1.6, despite Eric saying that sorcerers had enough burst damage they buffed Crystal Frags (20% on proc), Daedric Curse (25% on hit, 15% aoe), and changed Expert Mage to hurt any sorcerer who used Storm Calling for utility while buffing the spell damage of some builds (like the ones that use Frags and Curse). If they hadn't buffed the sorcerer's burst damage and didn't allow for near infinite resources would sorcerers even be on anyone's radar?

Huckdabuck

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Sorcerers are clearly the most dominate class in PvP. Wether you judge off playing the game, popular opinion, leaderboards, etc; their dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable way to tone down the class while keeping them viable.

The biggest thing that feels different when I play a Sorc is that they don't really have a main weakness. Other classes seem to be missing something (DKs missing an escape, NBs missing defensive ability/self heal, etc). Sorcs have great Offense with things like Frags, velocious Curse, mages fury. Great defense with shield stacking and BoL morph. And great mobility with Bolt escape. There class abilities also synergies with each other really well with things like CF proc.

One of the major balancing points of any game is to make sure a character or class cannot perform all 3 of these aspects at once. Take League of Legends for example. If a character is mobile, then it's is penalized with lower HP and defenses. Likewise, if a character is has a lot of offense/defense, then it typically isn't mobile.

The same thing should apply to Sorcs. No other class has anything close to what Sorcs have in mobility, yet Sorcs are not penalized in any kind of way for it. Shield stacking is way too strong and Bolt Escape can be spammed way too much without soft caps. Either shield stacking or BE need to go completely, or they both need to be toned down a lot.

Thoughts?

No

Stamden

Erock25 wrote: »

NBs are more overpowered than Sorc, thanks.

This thread is for discussion on how to balance Sorcs, not to debate about if they are OP or not. If you are too delusional to see that Sorcs are overpowered then go to one of the million posts arguing about it. I am trying to cushion the blow to Sorcs by being reasonable and compromising. If you care about your class I recommend you do the same.

coolermh

I bet money on the next major patch Sorc's get hit the hardest.

Derra

coolermh wrote: »

Scale hardened ward off health and decrease the distance of bolt escape by 1/4. Problems solved.

Best race + class combo pointing out his inability to press the right buttons again. Forum users beware.

On Topic: Nothing wrong with sorcs. Buff Templars and DK a little.

Jitterbug

coolermh wrote: »

Scale hardened ward off health and decrease the distance of bolt escape by 1/4. Problems solved.

And rename it "Tiny Bolt Step"

Xsorus

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sorcs have ohne huge weakness: their limited stamina pool. If BOL would work right it might be OP but it's a joke compared to cloak which makes you dodge all projectiles even if you are detected through a detection potion. There is nothing more powerful than well played stamina NBs who have an extremely good offense + infinite dodge rolling + cloak + unblock able fear. And btw there is a counter to sorcs that are trying to escape: every charge. The sorc hurts hisself because the charges (2H or Shield) get more powerful at a bigger distance.

That's virtually every Magic Based setup...not just sorcs..also I can safely say...I've yet to actually kill a sorc in this game by running their stamina dry. Every Sorc kill i've gotten in 1.6..has basically been them letting their shields drop slightly without refreshing and then me landing a hit that does slightly more damage then it...which ends up critting followed by like Venom Arrow/Light Attack/Camo Hunter procs.

There is no fight where i've CCed them so much they can longer break free and I wrecking blow them to the face.

Emma_Overload

coolermh wrote: »

I bet money on the next major patch Sorc's get hit the hardest.

Agreed... but how is that different from the LAST major patch, or any of the ones before that?

Sorcs have only been "balanced" for a few days in April 2014. Ever since then, it's been one nerf after another.

Ezareth

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Nice find! But Stamina and Magika builds are both viable now so now we can work on balancing Sorcs.

Ahh I see....

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

That's virtually every Magic Based setup...not just sorcs..also I can safely say...I've yet to actually kill a sorc in this game by running their stamina dry. Every Sorc kill i've gotten in 1.6..has basically been them letting their shields drop slightly without refreshing and then me landing a hit that does slightly more damage then it...which ends up critting followed by like Venom Arrow/Light Attack/Camo Hunter procs.

There is no fight where i've CCed them so much they can longer break free and I wrecking blow them to the face.

That's not true at all. You have only to look at your own PvP video of you killing me to say otherwise. You killed me in exactly 12 seconds, with me doing little other than recasting my shields. I also had the Emp buff *and* an ayleid well buff. The best part is you did this in 12 seconds from *1%* stamina.....yet you're here on the forums every day trying to act like Sorcs are OP and that you can't kill them. Your bias and general disenginuity is pretty astounding.

Garion

Stop it you guys. Sorcs are balanced now. Just because you can't one shot us any more doesn't mean there is imbalance. The only class that needs a buff since 1.6 is DKs and maybe to a lesser extent magicka Templars, although they can be strong with the right build. This is a combination of a L2P issue and the classic NB QQ when they come up against something they can't kill by macroing lethal arrows.

Germtrocity

I bet if 1.5 DK was still around, at least 85% of the nerf sorc threads on the forums would disappear.
They can't handle not being able to faceroll any sorcerer they come across anymore.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sorcs have ohne huge weakness: their limited stamina pool. If BOL would work right it might be OP but it's a joke compared to cloak which makes you dodge all projectiles even if you are detected through a detection potion. There is nothing more powerful than well played stamina NBs who have an extremely good offense + infinite dodge rolling + cloak + unblock able fear. And btw there is a counter to sorcs that are trying to escape: every charge. The sorc hurts hisself because the charges (2H or Shield) get more powerful at a bigger distance.

Please bolt escape from me so critical rush does max damage for 10k! PRETTY PLEASE!

signed,
the annoying high damage+dodge roling+cloak+fear NB.

Jitterbug

TBH I think it's fine. Sure they hit hard and maybe some of that needs to be looked at a little, but the whole escape artist thing doesn't bother me. I just don't follow, and I feel just fine.

Waylander

Sorc's are strong in the current game. I can be more aggressive on my sorc than other classes. Most sorcs building for regen dont have big shields. Mine is about 8k I think but I only run 20k magica. People should try blocking curse (it's blockable now) and frags. Sorcs have good burst, but only when you get hit with a full curse/frags/wrath combo or get cc'd by frags. Unless the sorc is close, frags is pretty easy to avoid.

Until June I suggest that those that die to sorcs (or any magica build) could invest in some nirnhoned armor and not worry too much about them as it will cut into their dps potential more than you can with physical damage builds.

Stamina NB is also very strong. They kill so fast and fear is a very good cc. I would be more worried about these guys than sorcs, ttk is ridiculously low if you are wearing light armor.

All stamina builds seem pretty strong due to 2h burst and off bar utility. I have not tried stamina sorc, but imagine it would be pretty strong due to the cost reduction passive and the fact that lots of stamina weapon abilities are pretty good (2h bar can easily run 4 x 2h abilities + one class cc/snare to help you land wrecking blows). I regularly get hit with snipes that crit for 15k plus.

My magica dk has some survivability issues but can hit harder/burst than any other class. I have hit people for 24-30k on a crit heavy attack. My frags rarely hit for 10k. My stamina NB doesn't hit for over 20k.

Magica nb feels weak in terms of burst, but pretty strong in utility and is the ultimate troll class. When everyone run's detection pots I think it will be safe to say magica nb is a bit too weak. I would suggest an Ambush like morph (not lotus fan which is a bit disappointing) and increasing concealed weapon damage about 10%.

I haven't leveled a Temp past 15 yet to form an opinion on the temp/magica

I think it's good to give these things a bit of time for counters to form.

Overall a higher TTK would be beneficial so a bigger health bonus or lower dmg numbers might be the best option before nerfing anything imho.

Domander

This one is easy

make it so you can't bolt escape while immobilized, then it's at least possible to keep a sorc in range to run them out of stamina.

Sorcs roam around able to always escape unfavorable situations. If they start to get low on stamina... bolt bolt bolt bolt bolt bolt bolt.

As it is now there is no real counter to bolt escape, the server doesn't always allow you to gap close to keep up. Bolt escape can also go over terrain that other gap closers can't. Even another sorc trying to chase ends up being a waste of time, especially if they're both using Ball of Lightning.

You can't gap close while rooted, you can't even use "take flight" AN ULTIMATE while immobilized. It should prevent bolt escape as well, it's easy enough to dodge roll, but it would make all the difference for balance.

I'd also suggest something be done with annulment as it allows such high stacking vs magic.

Bashev

OP what did you expect with this topic? There are several topics about how OP are Sorcs and in every one of them the Sorc gang come and start pretending that Sorc class is not OP in PvP. If we want ZoS to hear us we have to give them feedback in the game. Type /feedback and describe why do you think that Sorcs are OP.

olsborg

Shieldstacking is an issue, yes, make the light armor shield not stack with any other shield. (Harness magicka/Dampen magicka)

Domander

olsborg wrote: »

Shieldstacking is an issue, yes, make the light armor shield not stack with any other shield. (Harness magicka/Dampen magicka)

I think they should just redesign this ability, it's unbalanced to have abilities that only work against spells, especially in 1.6.

Domander

ToRelax wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

NBs are more overpowered than Sorc, thanks.

^This, and the main problem are infinite resources, you don't get "balance" without fixing that *** first, and I predict it will hit those builds the hardest wich you think are "OP" right now.

I agree, but I don't think they'll doing anything about it. It would be wonderful if they could, without harming regen for those that aren't stacked so high.

Septimus_Magna

@deathpandax_ESO
Sorcs have no weakness you say? How about no self heal and no good damage mitigating spell? Shields are strong yes, but shield have no mitigation and you still need to block to prevent getting knocked down. If you stack Hardened Ward and Dampen Magic you get a 20k shield, this has no mitigation so any decent player should be able to burst it down in no time.

Dont get me started on BoL, the projectile absorbing ball doesnt work half the time, I get hit by a sorts of spells when bolting away. Especially the templar flare seems to ignore the ball most times.

Spangla

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sorcs have ohne huge weakness: their limited stamina pool. If BOL would work right it might be OP but it's a joke compared to cloak which makes you dodge all projectiles even if you are detected through a detection potion. There is nothing more powerful than well played stamina NBs who have an extremely good offense + infinite dodge rolling + cloak + unblock able fear. And btw there is a counter to sorcs that are trying to escape: every charge. The sorc hurts hisself because the charges (2H or Shield) get more powerful at a bigger distance.

Actually using drinks they have enough cc to never run out of stamina either

PeggymoeXD

I can agree that Sorcs, if played correctly, can be the most desirable class for PvP right now. If there weren't 5 million re-rolls, I'd consider leveling one myself. I don't like the "lure the prey to an ambush" sorc playstyle one bit. But I can respect one that lures you away to fight you himself. Or is good enough to not lure at all, and just 1vX.

I don't consider myself an amazing player by any means, but I think I'm decent. Decent enough to be the judge of another decent player. And I'm going to say I've faced more bad sorcs than good ones. Sure, most sorcs can cause little greenies to QQ on the forums, but I think there are only a handful that can take on experienced players. Facing a sorc is all about timing, so if you're a face-to-keyboard player, yeah, you're gonna lose that fight. As a DK I normally wreck sorcs with their own attacks reflected back at them with a crit rush and dragon leap to follow.

The nerf sorc QQ is almost humorous at this point. Each class has its own skills to counter other skills. Learn your class and learn the other classes. Stahp ya whinin'

Vis

Love how the OP acts as through his perception of class balance is final and absolute. As though saying it makes it true. Let me give it a go:


I am clearly the supreme ruler over the whole Earth. Whether you judge off history books, popular opinion, national constitutions, etc; my worldwide dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable ways to serve me, your overlord, while keeping me happy and interested.


Do you think everyone bought it?

Ancile

Vis wrote: »

Love how the OP acts as through his perception of class balance is final and absolute. As though saying it makes it true. Let me give it a go:


I am clearly the supreme ruler over the whole Earth. Whether you judge off history books, popular opinion, national constitutions, etc; my worldwide dominance is indisputable and this post is not here to debate about it. This post is in regards to reasonable ways to serve me, your overlord, while keeping me happy and interested.


Do you think everyone bought it?

Awesome. Just awesome. OP needs to l2p.