How to balance Sorcs

exiledtyrant

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

NBs are more overpowered than Sorc, thanks.

^This, and the main problem are infinite resources, you don't get "balance" without fixing that *** first, and I predict it will hit those builds the hardest wich you think are "OP" right now.

I agree, but I don't think they'll doing anything about it. It would be wonderful if they could, without harming regen for those that aren't stacked so high.

I have to agree with near infinite resources being a huge problem. I had the pleasure of walking from Roebeck to Alessia the other night because there was a bolt sorc on me the entire way. The fight must have lasted 10+ minutes as I just out healed and shielded their damage over and over again. After that walk we fought for another 5 minutes in the open field just before the farm until finally 3 people from my faction came and chased them off, but don't worry they still had plenty of resources left to bolt off into the horizon. They only had 15k hp so I'm assuming they were w drink user.

I had another 10 minute fight with an NB today that went on again for almost 10 minutes. If they hadn't crit 3 times in a row who knows how long that would have went. I'm guessing fear spam would have finally got me. Again though that NB must have gone into rotation 20 or 30 times over the course of that fight.

It's insane that I could be healing/shielding that long with only 60 CP and that they could keep throwing large damage rotations over several minutes without slowing down.

C0pp3rhead

Frawr wrote: »

Post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic stamina pool, but I usually have enough to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. Maybe your HP is too low. Unless you are a very skilled player, having less than 20k hp outside of Cyrodiil is basically a death sentence. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

kongkim

coolermh wrote: »

Scale hardened ward off health and decrease the distance of bolt escape by 1/4. Problems solved.

Lol that would be just stupid

Bfish22090

Make power overload have 50-250 ultimate to use like every other ult in the game, not 1000

CP5

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Make power overload have 50-250 ultimate to use like every other ult in the game, not 1000

You can store up to 1000 ultimate, always have been able to.

Bfish22090

CP5 wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Make power overload have 50-250 ultimate to use like every other ult in the game, not 1000

You can store up to 1000 ultimate, always have been able to.

Yes but if you hit any other ultimate it drops to 0, with power ultimate you can work off of a ln ultimate pool of 80-1000 making it op

c0rp

I think people need to L2P honestly.

PVP wise, Sorcs are in a pretty good place, and NBs are in a way better place. DKs are still tanking on the world. Even Templars dont seem too far behind to me.

Gorthax

Bfish22090 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Make power overload have 50-250 ultimate to use like every other ult in the game, not 1000

You can store up to 1000 ultimate, always have been able to.

Yes but if you hit any other ultimate it drops to 0, with power ultimate you can work off of a ln ultimate pool of 80-1000 making it op

It is reflectable, it can be dodged, it can be blocked, it can be absorbed. Stop being bad and learn to get around it(for the record, I dont even use over load in my build; it might be strong but not worth it to me). I assure you that a vast majority of the QQ's about sorcs come from people who

A) Still try to bash people to death (yea its a thing still, people are stuck in 1.1)
B ) think play your way means everything is viable
C ) Dont have the patience to learn to time a good cc,
D) Dont run any CC on their bar or
E ) refuse to use block

My shields drop faster than I can keep them up most the time. I die a lot but I also kill alot and I am not a bad sorc. I dont run the traditional "look at me I followed someone elses build video" build. I made my own, I made it viable and I wreck stuff. If it wasnt for my shields and bolt escape I wouldnt live at all. It would be free AP for everyone. Most sorc skills are reflectable, removed from cc break (even if they arent a cc i.e. curse), DoT, cc, or two of our single target skills Mages wrath and crystal frags. Thats not accounting for pets or dark exchange or the buff we get. Now lets compare all that to every other classes single target skills which are BETTER than sorcs, their DoTs which, again, are better than sorcs, or heals....which again is better than sorcs.

So tell me again why we shouldnt have mobility and defense when that is all we have going for us. Or was the point I made about free AP what everyone is actually after. Enough is enough. sorcs have been on the bottom of the list for a LONG time and only skilled players werent free AP for everyone, and even then people STILL cried to nerf us. Now that the skilled players are given slightly better tools (increased damage to curse and frags) and the skill those players carried with them into the new changes of 1.6 make them outshine every other wanna be sorc, people are calling for nerfs again.

I do not like tossing out the L2P statement, as that was what was tossed out at me when I first started pvp'ing, but I got around all my QQ issues when I started pvp many many months ago and I got better. I earned skill with my sorc. Now that my skill shines better in 1.6 everyone wants nerf nerf nerf nerf. I just wish this would end lol I have been here with my sorc since day 1 and all it has ever been was nerf nerf nerf nerf when it came to sorc and ZoS just keeps listening. The only time it wasnt aimed at sorc was once Sypher and friends figured out the most OP DK build ever. Then it was nerf nerf nerf on that.

Until ZoS stops listening to this community about what to nerf, we will never have balance. Even then I dont think we will ever have the type of balance everyone wants lol End of story

Farsh

As as sorc player I think it would be fair that immobilization skills would stop me from using BoL BUT only if another one of our skills prevent people from dodge rolling.

Maybe negate which is currently pretty useless (unless its a lag fest @ a flag) since enemies can just dodge roll out of it, or one of the morphs of encase:
Restraining prison could stop dodge rolling when the ensnare sets in: only after break free enemies would be able to dodge roll again.

If sorcs get this I have no problems with immobilization skills stopping BoL > this would force some investments into stamina for sorcs

Gorthax

Farsh wrote: »

As as sorc player I think it would be fair that immobilization skills would stop me from using BoL BUT only if another one of our skills prevent people from dodge rolling.

Maybe negate which is currently pretty useless (unless its a lag fest @ a flag) since enemies can just dodge roll out of it, or one of the morphs of encase:
Restraining prison could stop dodge rolling when the ensnare sets in: only after break free enemies would be able to dodge roll again.

If sorcs get this I have no problems with immobilization skills stopping BoL > this would force some investments into stamina for sorcs

@Farsh How about BoL is impossible to cast if we are rooted but ONLY if people hiding behind block cant cast skills and people dodge rolling cant use abilities either. Seems fair ^_^

Farsh

Gorthax wrote: »

@Farsh How about BoL is impossible to cast if we are rooted but ONLY if people hiding behind block cant cast skills and people dodge rolling cant use abilities either. Seems fair ^_^

^:D It would just require 1 dodge roll to be able to BoL again

Jitterbug

I know I'm probably the only stam sorc worldwide, but please remember that I at lest do exist before you guys nerf everything...

Gorthax

Jitterbug wrote: »

I know I'm probably the only stam sorc worldwide, but please remember that I at lest do exist before you guys nerf everything...

no one wants to nerf stamina sorcs. They just want to compeltely obliterate magicka sorcs @Jitterbug so you are safe

Erock25

Gorthax wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

I know I'm probably the only stam sorc worldwide, but please remember that I at lest do exist before you guys nerf everything...

no one wants to nerf stamina sorcs. They just want to compeltely obliterate magicka sorcs @Jitterbug so you are safe

Oh how I miss being able to use Bolt Escape effectively as a stamina sorc. It was nice before the 50% cost increase for the 2nd cast which totally depletes a stam sorc magicka bar.

Jitterbug

Erock25 wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

I know I'm probably the only stam sorc worldwide, but please remember that I at lest do exist before you guys nerf everything...

no one wants to nerf stamina sorcs. They just want to compeltely obliterate magicka sorcs @Jitterbug so you are safe

Oh how I miss being able to use Bolt Escape effectively as a stamina sorc. It was nice before the 50% cost increase for the 2nd cast which totally depletes a stam sorc magicka bar.

Yeah I know, I still use it on my 2H-bar though. Mainly just because, but also it does synergize well with crit rush. Rush -> Bolt -> Rush -> Weeeee!

Xsorus

Gorthax wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Make power overload have 50-250 ultimate to use like every other ult in the game, not 1000

You can store up to 1000 ultimate, always have been able to.

Yes but if you hit any other ultimate it drops to 0, with power ultimate you can work off of a ln ultimate pool of 80-1000 making it op

It is reflectable, it can be dodged, it can be blocked, it can be absorbed. Stop being bad and learn to get around it(for the record, I dont even use over load in my build; it might be strong but not worth it to me). I assure you that a vast majority of the QQ's about sorcs come from people who

A) Still try to bash people to death (yea its a thing still, people are stuck in 1.1)
B ) think play your way means everything is viable
C ) Dont have the patience to learn to time a good cc,
D) Dont run any CC on their bar or
E ) refuse to use block

My shields drop faster than I can keep them up most the time. I die a lot but I also kill alot and I am not a bad sorc. I dont run the traditional "look at me I followed someone elses build video" build. I made my own, I made it viable and I wreck stuff. If it wasnt for my shields and bolt escape I wouldnt live at all. It would be free AP for everyone. Most sorc skills are reflectable, removed from cc break (even if they arent a cc i.e. curse), DoT, cc, or two of our single target skills Mages wrath and crystal frags. Thats not accounting for pets or dark exchange or the buff we get. Now lets compare all that to every other classes single target skills which are BETTER than sorcs, their DoTs which, again, are better than sorcs, or heals....which again is better than sorcs.

So tell me again why we shouldnt have mobility and defense when that is all we have going for us. Or was the point I made about free AP what everyone is actually after. Enough is enough. sorcs have been on the bottom of the list for a LONG time and only skilled players werent free AP for everyone, and even then people STILL cried to nerf us. Now that the skilled players are given slightly better tools (increased damage to curse and frags) and the skill those players carried with them into the new changes of 1.6 make them outshine every other wanna be sorc, people are calling for nerfs again.

I do not like tossing out the L2P statement, as that was what was tossed out at me when I first started pvp'ing, but I got around all my QQ issues when I started pvp many many months ago and I got better. I earned skill with my sorc. Now that my skill shines better in 1.6 everyone wants nerf nerf nerf nerf. I just wish this would end lol I have been here with my sorc since day 1 and all it has ever been was nerf nerf nerf nerf when it came to sorc and ZoS just keeps listening. The only time it wasnt aimed at sorc was once Sypher and friends figured out the most OP DK build ever. Then it was nerf nerf nerf on that.

Until ZoS stops listening to this community about what to nerf, we will never have balance. Even then I dont think we will ever have the type of balance everyone wants lol End of story

I want to point out that there are plenty of ultimates that do the same thing as far as blocking, dodging, reflect.. And do less damage then overload

Ahaek

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic stamina pool, but I usually have enough to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. Maybe your HP is too low. Unless you are a very skilled player, having less than 20k hp outside of Cyrodiil is basically a death sentence. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

LOL are you sure its a hit ^^?
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k

Stamden

Ahaek wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic stamina pool, but I usually have enough to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. Maybe your HP is too low. Unless you are a very skilled player, having less than 20k hp outside of Cyrodiil is basically a death sentence. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

LOL are you sure its a hit ^^?
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k

Where are you getting these numbers from?

I have a max weapon damage NB (3.6k buffed) and Ambush really isn't that great of a damage skill, it does 5k. Suprise attack does 6.5k. Even if I am critting (which shouldn't happen, you should have impen gear) those numbers don't come anywhere close to yours.

And keep in mind those are with legendary Morag Tang, Ashen Grip, Dreugh King slayer, and shadow walker. Your average NB isn't going to do anything close to that. Stop making up numbers.

Tankqull

Neighbor wrote: »

Ahaek wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic stamina pool, but I usually have enough to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. Maybe your HP is too low. Unless you are a very skilled player, having less than 20k hp outside of Cyrodiil is basically a death sentence. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

LOL are you sure its a hit ^^?
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k

Where are you getting these numbers from?

the same sources that spread 14k frag hits and 20k overload hits

Itoq

Hits? Yes. Regular? No.

Frawr

Neighbor wrote: »

Ahaek wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic stamina pool, but I usually have enough to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. Maybe your HP is too low. Unless you are a very skilled player, having less than 20k hp outside of Cyrodiil is basically a death sentence. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

LOL are you sure its a hit ^^?
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k

Where are you getting these numbers from?

I have a max weapon damage NB (3.6k buffed) and Ambush really isn't that great of a damage skill, it does 5k. Suprise attack does 6.5k. Even if I am critting (which shouldn't happen, you should have impen gear) those numbers don't come anywhere close to yours.

And keep in mind those are with legendary Morag Tang, Ashen Grip, Dreugh King slayer, and shadow walker. Your average NB isn't going to do anything close to that. Stop making up numbers.

They are rough numbers for what I have recently been hit for. Per the death recap.

SafiyerAmitora

Neighbor wrote: »

Even if I am critting (which shouldn't happen, you should have impen gear) those numbers don't come anywhere close to yours.

Impen kinda sucks now... Why try to negate the bit of extra dmg from crits with Impen when you can try to negate the dmg from both a crit and the base attack with reinforced/nirnhoned?

Stamden

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Even if I am critting (which shouldn't happen, you should have impen gear) those numbers don't come anywhere close to yours.

Impen kinda sucks now... Why try to negate the bit of extra dmg from crits with Impen when you can try to negate the dmg from both a crit and the base attack with reinforced/nirnhoned?

Best combo is 3/4 nirn to cap it, then rest impen. Reinforced is pretty weak.

King Bozo

Played all four classes and sorcs get the award for being most squeeshy. Take away bol then sorcs die. Dk and temp you can press a couple buttons and your fine. Those 2 classes have great survivability. Sorcs you will use both bars more often and it's fun. Sorcs play style is totally different as it should be. I would say in a battle 9 out of 10 times sorcs that use bol is because they are about to die from my experience. I don't understand these nerf sorcs threads. I don't understand why there are so many of these threads. While it may be a pain roll a sorc or better yet one of each class. This will eliminate so many nerf threads. What about night blades fearing you through the map? Fear doesn't need to be nerfed but anytime a player goes under the map that's a real issue.

TheLaw

Good one, haha.

ToRelax

King Bozo wrote: »

Played all four classes and sorcs get the award for being most squeeshy. Take away bol then sorcs die. Dk and temp you can press a couple buttons and your fine. Those 2 classes have great survivability. Sorcs you will use both bars more often and it's fun. Sorcs play style is totally different as it should be. I would say in a battle 9 out of 10 times sorcs that use bol is because they are about to die from my experience. I don't understand these nerf sorcs threads. I don't understand why there are so many of these threads. While it may be a pain roll a sorc or better yet one of each class. This will eliminate so many nerf threads. What about night blades fearing you through the map? Fear doesn't need to be nerfed but anytime a player goes under the map that's a real issue.

Literally the only thing you got right is that Sorc aren't OP by themselves/shouldn't be nerfed.

jelliedsoup

Is this the thread where sorcs claim roll dodging ( which is available to everyone) is the same as BoL?

Imagine nbs doing more damage from stealth? Nerf nbs.

SafiyerAmitora

Neighbor wrote: »

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Even if I am critting (which shouldn't happen, you should have impen gear) those numbers don't come anywhere close to yours.

Impen kinda sucks now... Why try to negate the bit of extra dmg from crits with Impen when you can try to negate the dmg from both a crit and the base attack with reinforced/nirnhoned?

Best combo is 3/4 nirn to cap it, then rest impen. Reinforced is pretty weak.

Ehh... Imo, Impen just isn't worth it anymore. All the pieces of armor I use that are crafted (using footman girdle/gauntlets and heavy infused 2pc Malubeths (will drop as soon as I get heavy reinforced... if ever), so other pieces are crafted Hist), two are nirnhoned and the rest are reinforced (running s&b, so that's reinforced, too), and it works extremely well.

King Bozo

ToRelax wrote: »

King Bozo wrote: »

Played all four classes and sorcs get the award for being most squeeshy. Take away bol then sorcs die. Dk and temp you can press a couple buttons and your fine. Those 2 classes have great survivability. Sorcs you will use both bars more often and it's fun. Sorcs play style is totally different as it should be. I would say in a battle 9 out of 10 times sorcs that use bol is because they are about to die from my experience. I don't understand these nerf sorcs threads. I don't understand why there are so many of these threads. While it may be a pain roll a sorc or better yet one of each class. This will eliminate so many nerf threads. What about night blades fearing you through the map? Fear doesn't need to be nerfed but anytime a player goes under the map that's a real issue.

Literally the only thing you got right is that Sorc aren't OP by themselves/shouldn't be nerfed.

Glad you agreed on the main point.

Ezareth

Itoq wrote: »

Hits? Yes. Regular? No.

I'll take your Crystal Fragments and raise you a Soul Harvest. This guy was insta-gibbing me and my group from stealth all night through my shields. Keep in mind this was *through* 32,000 Magicka Resist. I'm not here on the forums complaining about it though. NBs hit like trucks.