How to balance Sorcs

SafiyerAmitora

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones.

Please tell me you're joking... Sorcs have so many counters, it's not even funny...

Soulac

AlexDrago wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This is exactly what I am talking about. Am I wrong? Do you want to discuss something? Or are you just going to sit there and dodge the topic like you always do?

You can discuss mathematics with a man who claims that two by two equals 5. But it is impossible to hold discussions with those who say that two by two equals stearic candle.

NB are OP in PVP, everyone knows that. And they want to be OP and oneshot-sork-kill forever.

No class is op.
Every class has plenty of counters, use them.

AlexDrago

Soulac wrote: »

AlexDrago wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

This is exactly what I am talking about. Am I wrong? Do you want to discuss something? Or are you just going to sit there and dodge the topic like you always do?

You can discuss mathematics with a man who claims that two by two equals 5. But it is impossible to hold discussions with those who say that two by two equals stearic candle.

NB are OP in PVP, everyone knows that. And they want to be OP and oneshot-sork-kill forever.

No class is op.
Every class has plenty of counters, use them.

I'm glad to hear that from NB. . Thank you.
^..^_==_$ It's a cat for you \^_^/

Cinnamon_Spider

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones. Other classes lack either sustainability, an escape, or mobility, but Sorcs have all of this.

Neighbor wrote: »

Do you admit this true? Cause when you just post random, off-topic batman memes and dodge the subject, it makes it look like it. How about actually making a thought out, educated post Sorcs? Is it because you know that it is all correct and you chose to dodge the topic?

Batman? How can anyone trust the opinion of someone that can't even tell the difference between Batman and Spiderman?

Ezareth

Neighbor wrote: »

All you ever do is go off topic when you lose an argumenet. You know Sorcs are what they are and yet you continue to act as if their balanced just for your own sake. Jesus dude stop thinking of yourself for 10 seconds. Even if Shield Stacking gets nerfed and scales off health (which is should!), Sorcs are still going to be the best PvP class by far. No amount of nerfs are going to take Sorcs off their pedistal. Being a long ranged nuker with more mobility then every other class means they are going to be the most suited for PvP regardless.

All I can say is pretty much everything you've said is wrong. But what's the point arguing with you? It takes me time to counter your ridiculous assertions while you just continue to vomit more of them all over the page....in every thread. Rather than continue to attempting to reason with the the unreasonable I've decided to give you the internet equivalent to your posts.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I gave you a simple answer, namely they be noticably better than the other magicka based classes. How is that *not* a "fair place? Are you joking? You are so convinced that NBs, DKs, and stamina users have nothing else better to do than to spread propaganda in a crusade to nerf your class that you derail every single conversation. I never said or implied anything about NBs, YOU think they are noticably better than other stamina based classes, not me; my logic does not apply to your opinions.

You may live in world where it's fine for magicka sorcs to be OP compared to templars who, in your words, are "just relatively weak compared to everyone," because you occasionally die to a soul harvesting NB. I don't. You think my statement meant "nerf sorcs!" when it could just as easily and correctly interpreted as "buff the other magicka classes". But you are so convinced everyone is out to nerf your class, the never really crossed your mind, did it?

They are better than other magicka classes in the areas they *should* be better. Damage and Mobility. That's the class design. So what is so "unfair" about that? I find no humor in it, nor should I have to defend it. A templar has far more utility and healing and support abilities because that is what defines that class. If Sorcs were outhealing templar I'd be the first to join the "Nerf Sorc healing". If Stamina Sorcs were out physical damaging Stam nightblades I'd be the first join the "Nerf Stam sorcs". You're asking why a Stealth Stamina class can't outnuke the archtypical magicka class and expect me to respond how? You (evidently from your posts) think game design balance should homogenize all the classes (this is exactly what would happen if you started balancing every sub-category of every class with every other class).

As far was what I think (looks to the title of the thread), I'm posting in a thread created by non-sorcs to "balance" my class. I'd hardly call it a thread derailment and one can hardly blame me for thinking everyone is out to nerf my class when in fact the PvP forums has unofficially become the "Nerf Sorc" forums with the blessing of ZoS.

If you want to create a thread called "Buff Magicka Templar and Buff Magicka Nightblades" I'd happily provide any input I felt I could add. I'm all for buffing other classes where they show inherent uncounterable weaknesses.

cozmon3c_ESO

i would be fine with the removal of shield stacking as a sorc, i barely do it anyway. hardened ward is enough until im almost dead and then i cast healing ward when i lose life. Nothing will change for me as a sorc if they remove shield stacking i just wont beable to cover my healing ward with hardened ward anymore, so what, ill just recast healing ward instead if i lose the shield then.

in fact i would be glad for the removal of shield stacking, then i may be able to kill some of these magicka classes faster, especially templars, nightblades and dk's, especially if they add reflective scales as counting as a shield.

i welcome this change so the noobs can be more nooby and i can wreck people harder and faster.

Ezareth

Soulac wrote: »

Sorcerer is definitely fine as long as you don't jump in their mines.
In duels I barely lose against Sorcerers, even as Melee Stamina, but if I do its mostly cause mines (triggering more than one by accident..) or weapon swap isn't fast enough to break Soul Strike. (cloak)

To be honest, Sorc is "easy" to play against scrubs, that's the main reason for many players to reroll this class in my opinion.
But in duels you can see that it is indeed kind of balanced, as long as two good player fighting each other.
If you forget your shields or other defense mechanics as Sorc once or if your Stamina drops low, the chance to die is quite high.

Nb op.

Finally some players with actual skill and understanding of game mechanics are providing some input.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Batman? How can anyone trust the opinion of someone that can't even tell the difference between Batman and Spiderman?

Is it any wonder why I've given up conversing with them? I'm just blocking the people that are unreasonable and trying to find the few people posting who are actually capable of intelligent conversation . You see the same people posting the same drivel all over the forums and the moderators just let it happen. They're practically vomiting nonsense on each page....it's like trying to argue with a child...even if you win the argument you're a loser.

Stamden

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones.

Please tell me you're joking... Sorcs have so many counters, it's not even funny...

There's a difference between counters and having weaknesses. This is what I mean by weaknesses (cause nobody ever reads main post):

DK:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Strength: Damage, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: Defence

Sorc
Strength: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: ?

cozmon3c_ESO

Neighbor wrote: »

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones.

Please tell me you're joking... Sorcs have so many counters, it's not even funny...

There's a difference between counters and having weaknesses. This is what I mean by weaknesses (cause nobody ever reads main post):

DK:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Strength: Damage, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: Defence

Sorc
Strength: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: ?

you realize that dk and templar can become vampires and attain that escape and mobility. or just use a bow roll coupled with a speed buff (goes faster then bolt escape).

Any class can cover their weaknesses, you just have to build to be balanced. the sorcs you complain about have done this. if i was a dk/templar i would be vampire with mist form. if i was night blade i would roll more, or cloak more. the most amazing NB build i have seen so far is from Saber Ali (former sorc), if a sorc can figure out NB better then Night Blades then i dont know what to tell you. i would build a sorc like i have as its the most obvious and pretty much the only effective choice if you want to be able to run around and fight solo, stamina sorc is lacking.

Erock25

Neighbor wrote: »

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones.

Please tell me you're joking... Sorcs have so many counters, it's not even funny...

There's a difference between counters and having weaknesses. This is what I mean by weaknesses (cause nobody ever reads main post):

DK:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Strength: Damage, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: Defence

Sorc
Strength: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: ?

What about Dodge Roll, Charging Maneuver, Mist Form, Bow speed passive? A dodge rolling, bow user, that uses charging maneuver can keep up with a Bolt Escaping Sorc.

I find the Sorcs weakness to be either Damage or Defense. People really get all worked up over Hardened Ward, but it will not save you from even two people who know what they are doing. Even while spamming the ability, the time it takes to CC break once can get you killed from stamina burst DPS. I see other classes (especially combined with dodge rolling) being able to tank multiple enemies for a significant amount of time and that is just not possible on a Sorc. We deal with this by using our escape to split up our enemies, that is IF some charge spammer doesn't lock us down on our way out. As a SOrc, you are forced to stack magicka and rely on damage shields and you will inevitably be pwned from time to time in a split second. THe margin for error is miniscule when you have 16k HP and 5/7 light armor. If you aren't stacking magicka to the extreme, then your Ward is weaker AND you hit for low damage, but you can survive those random archer hits. In my current Sorc build and what I believe many other Sorcs are running, if you slack for even a half second you open yourself up to near one shots.

The biggest thing that I think Sorc haters need to accept is that just about every Sorc out there is dying more than they did in 1.5. We die fast and usually in the least epic way possible. It comes with the territory when you stack magicka above all else in this new non-soft cap world.

Ezareth

Neighbor wrote: »

SafiyerAmitora wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones.

Please tell me you're joking... Sorcs have so many counters, it's not even funny...

There's a difference between counters and having weaknesses. This is what I mean by weaknesses (cause nobody ever reads main post):

DK:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

Templar:
Strength: Damage, Defence
Weakness: Escape/Mobility

NB:
Strength: Damage, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: Defence

Sorc
Strength: Damage, Defence, Escape/Mobility
Weakness: ?

Let's compare Nbs and Sorcs.

Nbs -
Class abilities clearly designed to support a Stamina build - 30% Stamina regen and Medium Armor dependency. Superior synergy with Stamina Cost reduction glyph providing reduced stamina ability costs as well as dodge roll / break free. High passive damage mitigation rewards some points put into health although maximizing stamina synergizes best with the class.

Strengths: Stealth, Highest burst Damage class, High Passive damage mitigation, Dodge roll-break free costs arbitrary, extremely mobile when not being targetted
Weaknesses: lack of class heals and shields, dependency on stealth, and limited mobility when being pursued.

Sorcs
Class abilities clearly designed to support a Magicka builds - 10% Magicka regen and Light Armor dependency. Lack of passive defenses requires dependency on damage shields and penalize any points or attributes put into health.

Strengths: Most mobile class, High burst damage, Inexpensive and powerful class shield, ultimate allows use of a third ability bar
Weaknesses: Light armor dependency provides significant weakness to health pool, low stamina synergy promotes weakness to CC and limited dodge/block capability. Highest damage abilities are easy to counter and passive magick resistance is extremely high in the game.

Just because you don't recognize weaknesses doesn't mean they aren't there. Every class can compensate for their weaknesses to a degree by picking up abilities outside of their class line or specing their gear a certain way but no class can completely mitigate them.

Ezareth

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

you realize that dk and templar can become vampires and attain that escape and mobility. or just use a bow roll coupled with a speed buff (goes faster then bolt escape).

Any class can cover their weaknesses, you just have to build to be balanced. the sorcs you complain about have done this. if i was a dk/templar i would be vampire with mist form. if i was night blade i would roll more, or cloak more. the most amazing NB build i have seen so far is from Saber Ali (former sorc), if a sorc can figure out NB better then Night Blades then i dont know what to tell you. i would build a sorc like i have as its the most obvious and pretty much the only effective choice if you want to be able to run around and fight solo, stamina sorc is lacking.

I think playing the underdog sorc class all this time has trained us sorcs to be superior players.

I can't wait to unleash my NB Ezareth Ali on Cyrodiil. You better be on the lookout Leper....he's DC ( =

jpalm1995

Why should my blazing shield scale off of my health and a sorcs shield scale off of magicka? I think it would be fair if all shields either scaled off of magicka or all scaled off of health

eventide03b14a_ESO

Another "expert" here to explain the best way to fix the god-like sorcs. Your problem is you can't catch them and break their wards, which honestly just means you're not doing it right. How about instead of asking ZOS to nerf fix the sorcs you L2P and stop embarrassing yourself on the forums?

Stamden

1. Are you joking? Magicka NB has sustain, escape and mobility - the damage is lower than that of a Sorc, mainly because it's all about burst damage right now, but NB got the edge over Sorc on sustain, and if played smart, also escape.

Magika NB has less damage and less defense because of a lack of shields. Your also greatly overestimating the reliability of Dark Cloak. A lot of the time you need to cast it 2-3 times before it works in combat. There are also plenty of ways to stop invisibility. Bolt Escape is a much better escape because of its reliability and no way to counter it.

2. By choosing no compromises/trade-offs in your build, you end up dieing, you won't be able to just pump everything into magicka and still compete with other class's stamina builds. It is true, that Sorc is getting more out of the removal of softcaps than other magicka builds, but that is a different matter entirely, as you don't fix it just adjusting the Sorc.
As you are pretty much paraphrasing the old "damage and defense in one"-argument here - look, that NB got regen along with the natural benefits of max stats just by increasing max stats and using siphoning strikes !

If your shield stacking properly, then you won't die with everything in magika. Siphoning strikes is a pretty terrible skill, especially in PvP. Nobody competitively uses it because the damage drop off is too much.

3. There is nothing to fix at the Sorc, that's your problem. If you fix the imbalanced game mechanics that are favouring Sorcs, Sorc won't be stronger than the other magicka based classes anymore (at least not noticeable, depends on the fixes who's on top ofc, and who can tell as of now).

What do you mean by "imbalance game mechanics"? Are you admitting Shield Stacking is broken? A Sorc with common sense?

Yeah, if they fixed shield stacking it would put Sorcs in a reasonable place. I do believe changing shields is the best way to go about nerfing Sorcs, since then they still have the damage and mobility but at least you could kill them. Making shields scale off max health and adding a cast time to them seems like the best way to go about that.

eventide03b14a_ESO

jpalm1995 wrote: »

Why should my blazing shield scale off of my health and a sorcs shield scale off of magicka? I think it would be fair if all shields either scaled off of magicka or all scaled off of health

Because every templar with a stamina build would start crying. You want to talk fair but you forget that blazing shield actually returns damage. Hardened Ward does not. It's purely defense. Why do you only want to point out the half that makes it seem unfair?

ToRelax

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Are you joking? Magicka NB has sustain, escape and mobility - the damage is lower than that of a Sorc, mainly because it's all about burst damage right now, but NB got the edge over Sorc on sustain, and if played smart, also escape.

Magika NB has less damage and less defense because of a lack of shields. Your also greatly overestimating the reliability of Dark Cloak. A lot of the time you need to cast it 2-3 times before it works in combat. There are also plenty of ways to stop invisibility. Bolt Escape is a much better escape because of its reliability and no way to counter it.

I am not talking about Dark Cloak, I am talking about Shadow Image + Dark Cloak.
And no, NB magicka damage is NOT lower in general, it's the current metagame favouring burst damage, wich Sorcs can build higher due to delayed burst damage skills.

2. By choosing no compromises/trade-offs in your build, you end up dieing, you won't be able to just pump everything into magicka and still compete with other class's stamina builds. It is true, that Sorc is getting more out of the removal of softcaps than other magicka builds, but that is a different matter entirely, as you don't fix it just adjusting the Sorc.
As you are pretty much paraphrasing the old "damage and defense in one"-argument here - look, that NB got regen along with the natural benefits of max stats just by increasing max stats and using siphoning strikes !

If your shield stacking properly, then you won't die with everything in magika. Siphoning strikes is a pretty terrible skill, especially in PvP. Nobody competitively uses it because the damage drop off is too much.

This is simply not true... try it out if you want, if you put everything into magicka, not doing anything about your class's weaknesses, you will die a lot.
And I know some very good NBs who do use Siphoning Strikes - in fact, with some common sense, you will just minimalize the penalty it gives and maximize your damage in ways that allow better synergies, if dealing high damage is your goal.

Edit: I am sure a lot more players would use it if you didn't need 2 skill slots or have to reactivate it all the time.

3. There is nothing to fix at the Sorc, that's your problem. If you fix the imbalanced game mechanics that are favouring Sorcs, Sorc won't be stronger than the other magicka based classes anymore (at least not noticeable, depends on the fixes who's on top ofc, and who can tell as of now).

What do you mean by "imbalance game mechanics"? Are you admitting Shield Stacking is broken? A Sorc with common sense?

Yeah, if they fixed shield stacking it would put Sorcs in a reasonable place. I do believe changing shields is the best way to go about nerfing Sorcs, since then they still have the damage and mobility but at least you could kill them. Making shields scale off max health and adding a cast time to them seems like the best way to go about that.

So you say if they fixed shield stacking, it would put Sorc in a reasonable place already, but you want to nerf Hardened Ward into the ground anyway?
"No shield stacking" not change a thing for me.
But making Hardened Ward scale off health, wich we are already being penalized for for spending resources into, AND giving it a cast time, would make the ability useless. It would be like a NB trading Cloak for Bolt Escape, I would love to see that...

Stamden

ToRelax wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Are you joking? Magicka NB has sustain, escape and mobility - the damage is lower than that of a Sorc, mainly because it's all about burst damage right now, but NB got the edge over Sorc on sustain, and if played smart, also escape.

Magika NB has less damage and less defense because of a lack of shields. Your also greatly overestimating the reliability of Dark Cloak. A lot of the time you need to cast it 2-3 times before it works in combat. There are also plenty of ways to stop invisibility. Bolt Escape is a much better escape because of its reliability and no way to counter it.

I am not talking about Dark Cloak, I am talking about Shadow Image + Dark Cloak.
And no, NB magicka damage is NOT lower in general, it's the current metagame favouring burst damage, wich Sorcs can build higher due to delayed burst damage skills.

2. By choosing no compromises/trade-offs in your build, you end up dieing, you won't be able to just pump everything into magicka and still compete with other class's stamina builds. It is true, that Sorc is getting more out of the removal of softcaps than other magicka builds, but that is a different matter entirely, as you don't fix it just adjusting the Sorc.
As you are pretty much paraphrasing the old "damage and defense in one"-argument here - look, that NB got regen along with the natural benefits of max stats just by increasing max stats and using siphoning strikes !

If your shield stacking properly, then you won't die with everything in magika. Siphoning strikes is a pretty terrible skill, especially in PvP. Nobody competitively uses it because the damage drop off is too much.

This is simply not true... try it out if you want, if you put everything into magicka, not doing anything about your class's weaknesses, you will die a lot.
And I know some very good NBs who do use Siphoning Strikes - in fact, with some common sense, you will just minimalize the penalty it gives and maximize your damage in ways that allow better synergies, if dealing high damage is your goal.

Edit: I am sure a lot more players would use it if you didn't need 2 skill slots or have to reactivate it all the time.

3. There is nothing to fix at the Sorc, that's your problem. If you fix the imbalanced game mechanics that are favouring Sorcs, Sorc won't be stronger than the other magicka based classes anymore (at least not noticeable, depends on the fixes who's on top ofc, and who can tell as of now).

What do you mean by "imbalance game mechanics"? Are you admitting Shield Stacking is broken? A Sorc with common sense?

Yeah, if they fixed shield stacking it would put Sorcs in a reasonable place. I do believe changing shields is the best way to go about nerfing Sorcs, since then they still have the damage and mobility but at least you could kill them. Making shields scale off max health and adding a cast time to them seems like the best way to go about that.

So you say if they fixed shield stacking, it would put Sorc in a reasonable place already, but you want to nerf Hardened Ward into the ground anyway?
"No shield stacking" not change a thing for me.
But making Hardened Ward scale off health, wich we are already being penalized for for spending resources into, AND giving it a cast time, would make the ability useless. It would be like a NB trading Cloak for Bolt Escape, I would love to see that...

Well regardless of the specifications, making shields weaker is really the only way you can justify Sorc's damage and mobility.

BTW, any NB would trade Dark Cloak for BoL any day. You really overestimate Dark Cloak, it is extremely unreliable.

Joy_Division

Ezareth wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

All you ever do is go off topic when you lose an argumenet. You know Sorcs are what they are and yet you continue to act as if their balanced just for your own sake. Jesus dude stop thinking of yourself for 10 seconds. Even if Shield Stacking gets nerfed and scales off health (which is should!), Sorcs are still going to be the best PvP class by far. No amount of nerfs are going to take Sorcs off their pedistal. Being a long ranged nuker with more mobility then every other class means they are going to be the most suited for PvP regardless.

All I can say is pretty much everything you've said is wrong. But what's the point arguing with you? It takes me time to counter your ridiculous assertions while you just continue to vomit more of them all over the page....in every thread. Rather than continue to attempting to reason with the the unreasonable I've decided to give you the internet equivalent to your posts.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I gave you a simple answer, namely they be noticably better than the other magicka based classes. How is that *not* a "fair place? Are you joking? You are so convinced that NBs, DKs, and stamina users have nothing else better to do than to spread propaganda in a crusade to nerf your class that you derail every single conversation. I never said or implied anything about NBs, YOU think they are noticably better than other stamina based classes, not me; my logic does not apply to your opinions.

You may live in world where it's fine for magicka sorcs to be OP compared to templars who, in your words, are "just relatively weak compared to everyone," because you occasionally die to a soul harvesting NB. I don't. You think my statement meant "nerf sorcs!" when it could just as easily and correctly interpreted as "buff the other magicka classes". But you are so convinced everyone is out to nerf your class, the never really crossed your mind, did it?

They are better than other magicka classes in the areas they *should* be better. Damage and Mobility. That's the class design. So what is so "unfair" about that? I find no humor in it, nor should I have to defend it. A templar has far more utility and healing and support abilities because that is what defines that class. If Sorcs were outhealing templar I'd be the first to join the "Nerf Sorc healing". If Stamina Sorcs were out physical damaging Stam nightblades I'd be the first join the "Nerf Stam sorcs". You're asking why a Stealth Stamina class can't outnuke the archtypical magicka class and expect me to respond how? You (evidently from your posts) think game design balance should homogenize all the classes (this is exactly what would happen if you started balancing every sub-category of every class with every other class).

As far was what I think (looks to the title of the thread), I'm posting in a thread created by non-sorcs to "balance" my class. I'd hardly call it a thread derailment and one can hardly blame me for thinking everyone is out to nerf my class when in fact the PvP forums has unofficially become the "Nerf Sorc" forums with the blessing of ZoS.

If you want to create a thread called "Buff Magicka Templar and Buff Magicka Nightblades" I'd happily provide any input I felt I could add. I'm all for buffing other classes where they show inherent uncounterable weaknesses.

Well now this is interesting. Who says that sorcerers *should* be better at magicka damage than the other classes? Matt Frior? Eric Wrobel? Or You? The game developers have been pretty consistent that their intent and efforts have been to make each class comparable for certain roles and want to get away from the assumption that class X = Y archetype. In fact, ZoS has actually asked the community how they can make stamina sorcs on par with the other class choices in this game. And I am not asking why a stealth stamina class can't outnuke anything.

What did I say to imply that my idea of game balance should be to homogenize all the classes? Because one class shoulnd;t be better than the others? How does that mean to homogenize them? And do you honestly thing ZoS is "blessing" the "Nerf Sorc" forums? That is paranoia dude.

Since you are so intent on putting words in my mouth and spreading disinformation on the forums about what I think is balance and what is not I will tell you what I think is my idea for ESO game balance (though I suspect you continue to interpret it as a call to ESO to nerf sorcs). Class balances in this game is difficult because classes are not restricted to what skills, abilities, and roles they cant take or have access to. In your mind, Sorcs should be top dogs in firepower and mobility. The problem is, in most RPGs that are designed this way, they implement restrictions that compels a sorcerer player to be weak at armor and defense. In Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, wizards can not wear armor at all and have very poor odds of resisting attacks to overall health / constitution. ESO is not. Here sorcerers can cherry pick key defensive abilities such as harness magicka, defensive posture, healing ward, can wear the best defensive-oriented set (in heavy armor no less), and this does not even consider their own skills such as Hardened Ward which is better than the "tanky" classes shields. Because a sorcerer, or any class for that matter, can easily circumvent the sort of restrictions that are necessary to justify the idea that X class should be best at Y thing, granting a class inherently advantages to doing so is going to lead to balance issues.

That being said, ZoS presented us with Templars that can heal better than other classes. Potentially dangerous if magicka templars ever figure out a way to put burst DPS on a target. But I also think ZoS regrets making Templars the default healers as the 1.6 nerfs to templar healing and the attempt at the healing orb morph to the last undaunted skill demonstrate.

I don't buy the argument that DKs are supposed to be the "tanks" in this game; an entire skill line of the class is dedicated to fire damage (which problematizes your claim that sorcerers are the archtypical magicka class that should outnuke the other classes). If they have good tank skills, it is because all classes have tanks skills. A nightblade tank (which is supposed to be the stealth stamina class, right?) using her own class skills can tank the most difficult content in the game (Sanctum Ophidia). Because NBs are capable of doing this, giving that class some large inherent advantage in damage because that is what they are "supposed to be" would make for a dangerous combination.

You say a sorcerer should be the best at mobility and damage. You do realize that the traditional test for military hardware composes of three aspects: speed, firepower, and armor...and you think that sorcs should be best at TWO of them? What mechanics exist in ESO that prevent sorcs from being dead last in armor / survivability to justify them being top dogs at the other two? Their shields that are stronger than a Templar or DK or NB? The one hand & shield or restoration staff weapons they can use just as effectively as the other three classes?

In a game without class restrictions, it should follow that the game should be without class assumptions. The very restrictions necessary to uphold the balance assumption that a sorcerer should be kings of damage but pawns of defense are no longer there.

Edit: this does not mean the classes should be the same or homogenized. The skills should work in different ways and enable classes to do different things that give them a distinctive flavor and varied gameplay. I don't mind the sorcerer can bolt escape whereas the others cannot. Or that a DK can reflect stuff but a NB can't. Theses are two different ways of defense done with the aim that both are approximately equal in effectiveness, i.e. one is not intentionally made better than the other because one class is "supposed to the tank."

Xsorus

2 Things..

Unless you're right next to a keep...Mistform is not going to save you....Like seriously..I've yet to have someone escape me in a 1v1 by using Mistform in the entire time i've played...once you're targeted I can basically spam Gap Closers on your face till end of times...If i'm running any kind of Root like Talons you're not going anywhere.

Anyone who says "We're balanced because we're dying more in 1.6" is foolish...Know why? Because everyone is dying more in 1.6...Its a product of the fact that everyone is forced into Glass Cannon Builds...and they went and cut everyones HP down as well.

ToRelax

Neighbor wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

1. Are you joking? Magicka NB has sustain, escape and mobility - the damage is lower than that of a Sorc, mainly because it's all about burst damage right now, but NB got the edge over Sorc on sustain, and if played smart, also escape.

Magika NB has less damage and less defense because of a lack of shields. Your also greatly overestimating the reliability of Dark Cloak. A lot of the time you need to cast it 2-3 times before it works in combat. There are also plenty of ways to stop invisibility. Bolt Escape is a much better escape because of its reliability and no way to counter it.

I am not talking about Dark Cloak, I am talking about Shadow Image + Dark Cloak.
And no, NB magicka damage is NOT lower in general, it's the current metagame favouring burst damage, wich Sorcs can build higher due to delayed burst damage skills.

2. By choosing no compromises/trade-offs in your build, you end up dieing, you won't be able to just pump everything into magicka and still compete with other class's stamina builds. It is true, that Sorc is getting more out of the removal of softcaps than other magicka builds, but that is a different matter entirely, as you don't fix it just adjusting the Sorc.
As you are pretty much paraphrasing the old "damage and defense in one"-argument here - look, that NB got regen along with the natural benefits of max stats just by increasing max stats and using siphoning strikes !

If your shield stacking properly, then you won't die with everything in magika. Siphoning strikes is a pretty terrible skill, especially in PvP. Nobody competitively uses it because the damage drop off is too much.

This is simply not true... try it out if you want, if you put everything into magicka, not doing anything about your class's weaknesses, you will die a lot.
And I know some very good NBs who do use Siphoning Strikes - in fact, with some common sense, you will just minimalize the penalty it gives and maximize your damage in ways that allow better synergies, if dealing high damage is your goal.

Edit: I am sure a lot more players would use it if you didn't need 2 skill slots or have to reactivate it all the time.

3. There is nothing to fix at the Sorc, that's your problem. If you fix the imbalanced game mechanics that are favouring Sorcs, Sorc won't be stronger than the other magicka based classes anymore (at least not noticeable, depends on the fixes who's on top ofc, and who can tell as of now).

What do you mean by "imbalance game mechanics"? Are you admitting Shield Stacking is broken? A Sorc with common sense?

Yeah, if they fixed shield stacking it would put Sorcs in a reasonable place. I do believe changing shields is the best way to go about nerfing Sorcs, since then they still have the damage and mobility but at least you could kill them. Making shields scale off max health and adding a cast time to them seems like the best way to go about that.

So you say if they fixed shield stacking, it would put Sorc in a reasonable place already, but you want to nerf Hardened Ward into the ground anyway?
"No shield stacking" not change a thing for me.
But making Hardened Ward scale off health, wich we are already being penalized for for spending resources into, AND giving it a cast time, would make the ability useless. It would be like a NB trading Cloak for Bolt Escape, I would love to see that...

Well regardless of the specifications, making shields weaker is really the only way you can justify Sorc's damage and mobility.

BTW, any NB would trade Dark Cloak for BoL any day. You really overestimate Dark Cloak, it is extremely unreliable.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying Sorc would become stronger with that "trade".
The thing is, NB would get "nerfed" far more than Sorc.

Spangla

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Sorcerer is definitely fine as long as you don't jump in their mines.
In duels I barely lose against Sorcerers, even as Melee Stamina, but if I do its mostly cause mines (triggering more than one by accident..) or weapon swap isn't fast enough to break Soul Strike. (cloak)

To be honest, Sorc is "easy" to play against scrubs, that's the main reason for many players to reroll this class in my opinion.
But in duels you can see that it is indeed kind of balanced, as long as two good player fighting each other.
If you forget your shields or other defense mechanics as Sorc once or if your Stamina drops low, the chance to die is quite high.

Nb op.

Finally some players with actual skill and understanding of game mechanics are providing some input.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Batman? How can anyone trust the opinion of someone that can't even tell the difference between Batman and Spiderman?

Is it any wonder why I've given up conversing with them? I'm just blocking the people that are unreasonable and trying to find the few people posting who are actually capable of intelligent conversation . You see the same people posting the same drivel all over the forums and the moderators just let it happen. They're practically vomiting nonsense on each page....it's like trying to argue with a child...even if you win the argument you're a loser.

Unfortunately - role dodge crap is the only answer to sorc.

Sorc op
Role dodge - Dumb design

The end

rfennell_ESO

Neighbor wrote: »

Considering nobody can make a counterargument to anything... even the main points of this post in the first place.

1. Sorcs have no inherint weakness, while other classes have obvious ones. Other classes lack either sustainability, an escape, or mobility, but Sorcs have all of this.

2. By building straight magika Sorcs get sustainability, damage, and mobility. Other classes have to manage which stats they put in where. This means that the removal of softcaps put Sorcs way over the edge just cause they can stack magika as high as they want.

3. Sorcs are by far the best magika class and the disbalance of Sorcs is preventing other magika classes from getting fixed. For example, Nirn shouldn't be as powerful as it is, but if it wasn't, Sorcs would be even more OP.

Do you admit this true? Cause when you just post random, off-topic batman memes and dodge the subject, it makes it look like it. How about actually making a thought out, educated post Sorcs? Is it because you know that it is all correct and you chose to dodge the topic?

1-A sorcs inherent weakness is to achieve the sustainability, damage and shielding level you cry about they have to be low on health and stamina. If you take out my stamina pool and get me cc'd with fear or petrify... I don't have a lot of health. That's a weakness, it's a big one and smart players exploit it.

2-Sorcs can stack magicka relatively high, but not as high as magicka nightblades can. Without magicka sorcs can't do a thing. It comes at a cost of not having much health or stamina.

3-Sorcs are the best magicka class because hardened ward mitigates the bad state of light armor. Also Sorcs have a self buff that raises their armor level to that of medium armor users. It's not the only self buff available btw.. anyone else can achieve nearly the same level with immovable. A sorc's personal shield is only ~5k larger than a templars and maybe 6k larger than a dks. All other "shield stacking" abilities are available to every other class (they aren't class skills). Many stamina builds or classes that only consider a stamina build their only option miss out on the fact that healing ward is a truly awesome ability. The surviveability of sorcs is mainly due to healing ward, which anyone can use (sypher uses it like mad on his nightblade magicka build)

I'll give you my honest assessment of sorcerer power on the battle field. The reason why sorcs are successful is a huge combination of skills... One that really requires more than 2 bars full of abilities, which fortunately as a sorc you have access to. I hear arguments claiming sorcs are easy mode... playing with 3 bars isn't easy mode, when you get used to it... it can become quite powerful. In an average skirmish I will likely use 13 different skills (duplication on one bar is why it isn't 15). It's not easy mode like 1.0-1.5 dk vamp were. I'm not jumping off a wall to take on a siege line solo like dk vamps did.

The strength of magicka sorcerer is that they have the abilities to take on any foe. They excel at destroying foes that don't defend themselves. Obvious healer sitting in the back, is a crushing shock and overload light attackx3 from being ashes. Perma shield blockers can be hit with inevitable detonation (rank 4)-velocious curse then rune cage so block aint up when they explode. You can deal with dks spamming reflective scales in much the same way. It's a build with options, having a lot of them (more than anyone else) isn't easy mode.

Lastly, the reason why magicka sorcs have become somewhat prevalent (which isn't the same as prevalent, as everyone knows the daily kill 20 sorcs is the worst pick you can get, and it's not because sorcs run away or are hard to kill.. it's because there are less of them (and they can get away)), the prevalence is because, unlike every other class, their stamina option is crappy. The people decrying magicka sorcs versus non sorc magicka classes fail to realize that stamina isn't much of an option in pvp for sorcs. It's a viable and powerful option for non sorcs... Magicka sorcs are there because they don't have that stamina option, 90% of dks and nightblades went stamina. 99% of sorcs went magicka. Templars are pretty good for stamina builds, but they are also the best healer by far... Are magicka sorcs much better than non sorc magicka users? Probably not, but you won't know because all the best players went stamina on those classes.

The reason many sorcs are against these nerf sorcs threads is that magicka pvp is all we have. We suck at the new hotness of stamina builds, we suck in pve. We've sucked at those things since about 1.1 and now we have some whiners trying to nerf the only thing we are viable at. Viable. Get that through your head. Your argument is to make the entire class useless.

Do I expect you to even read this? No, you might look to find something in it to disagree with and that will be it. All I do is magicka sorc pvp, and I've gotten at least somewhat good at it. If you think I kill 100 people and don't die... well, haha. sure. It's hard to argue with someone so off in their view.

PS sorcs with magicka builds are about as powerful as they were in 1.0-1.5 There have been some nice quality of life improvements with 1.6, but power level is about the same. The disappearance of other magicka based pvpers is due to stamina builds and not their magicka option sucking... but because the stamina builds rocking.

Ezareth

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

All you ever do is go off topic when you lose an argumenet. You know Sorcs are what they are and yet you continue to act as if their balanced just for your own sake. Jesus dude stop thinking of yourself for 10 seconds. Even if Shield Stacking gets nerfed and scales off health (which is should!), Sorcs are still going to be the best PvP class by far. No amount of nerfs are going to take Sorcs off their pedistal. Being a long ranged nuker with more mobility then every other class means they are going to be the most suited for PvP regardless.

All I can say is pretty much everything you've said is wrong. But what's the point arguing with you? It takes me time to counter your ridiculous assertions while you just continue to vomit more of them all over the page....in every thread. Rather than continue to attempting to reason with the the unreasonable I've decided to give you the internet equivalent to your posts.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I gave you a simple answer, namely they be noticably better than the other magicka based classes. How is that *not* a "fair place? Are you joking? You are so convinced that NBs, DKs, and stamina users have nothing else better to do than to spread propaganda in a crusade to nerf your class that you derail every single conversation. I never said or implied anything about NBs, YOU think they are noticably better than other stamina based classes, not me; my logic does not apply to your opinions.

You may live in world where it's fine for magicka sorcs to be OP compared to templars who, in your words, are "just relatively weak compared to everyone," because you occasionally die to a soul harvesting NB. I don't. You think my statement meant "nerf sorcs!" when it could just as easily and correctly interpreted as "buff the other magicka classes". But you are so convinced everyone is out to nerf your class, the never really crossed your mind, did it?

They are better than other magicka classes in the areas they *should* be better. Damage and Mobility. That's the class design. So what is so "unfair" about that? I find no humor in it, nor should I have to defend it. A templar has far more utility and healing and support abilities because that is what defines that class. If Sorcs were outhealing templar I'd be the first to join the "Nerf Sorc healing". If Stamina Sorcs were out physical damaging Stam nightblades I'd be the first join the "Nerf Stam sorcs". You're asking why a Stealth Stamina class can't outnuke the archtypical magicka class and expect me to respond how? You (evidently from your posts) think game design balance should homogenize all the classes (this is exactly what would happen if you started balancing every sub-category of every class with every other class).

As far was what I think (looks to the title of the thread), I'm posting in a thread created by non-sorcs to "balance" my class. I'd hardly call it a thread derailment and one can hardly blame me for thinking everyone is out to nerf my class when in fact the PvP forums has unofficially become the "Nerf Sorc" forums with the blessing of ZoS.

If you want to create a thread called "Buff Magicka Templar and Buff Magicka Nightblades" I'd happily provide any input I felt I could add. I'm all for buffing other classes where they show inherent uncounterable weaknesses.

Well now this is interesting. Who says that sorcerers *should* be better at magicka damage than the other classes? Matt Frior? Eric Wrobel? Or You? The game developers have been pretty consistent that their intent and efforts have been to make each class comparable for certain roles and want to get away from the assumption that class X = Y archetype. In fact, ZoS has actually asked the community how they can make stamina sorcs on par with the other class choices in this game. And I am not asking why a stealth stamina class can't outnuke anything.

What did I say to imply that my idea of game balance should be to homogenize all the classes? Because one class shoulnd;t be better than the others? How does that mean to homogenize them? And do you honestly thing ZoS is "blessing" the "Nerf Sorc" forums? That is paranoia dude.

Since you are so intent on putting words in my mouth and spreading disinformation on the forums about what I think is balance and what is not I will tell you what I think is my idea for ESO game balance (though I suspect you continue to interpret it as a call to ESO to nerf sorcs). Class balances in this game is difficult because classes are not restricted to what skills, abilities, and roles they cant take or have access to. In your mind, Sorcs should be top dogs in firepower and mobility. The problem is, in most RPGs that are designed this way, they implement restrictions that compels a sorcerer player to be weak at armor and defense. In Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, wizards can not wear armor at all and have very poor odds of resisting attacks to overall health / constitution. ESO is not. Here sorcerers can cherry pick key defensive abilities such as harness magicka, defensive posture, healing ward, can wear the best defensive-oriented set (in heavy armor no less), and this does not even consider their own skills such as Hardened Ward which is better than the "tanky" classes shields. Because a sorcerer, or any class for that matter, can easily circumvent the sort of restrictions that are necessary to justify the idea that X class should be best at Y thing, granting a class inherently advantages to doing so is going to lead to balance issues.

That being said, ZoS presented us with Templars that can heal better than other classes. Potentially dangerous if magicka templars ever figure out a way to put burst DPS on a target. But I also think ZoS regrets making Templars the default healers as the 1.6 nerfs to templar healing and the attempt at the healing orb morph to the last undaunted skill demonstrate.

I don't buy the argument that DKs are supposed to be the "tanks" in this game; an entire skill line of the class is dedicated to fire damage (which problematizes your claim that sorcerers are the archtypical magicka class that should outnuke the other classes). If they have good tank skills, it is because all classes have tanks skills. A nightblade tank (which is supposed to be the stealth stamina class, right?) using her own class skills can tank the most difficult content in the game (Sanctum Ophidia). Because NBs are capable of doing this, giving that class some large inherent advantage in damage because that is what they are "supposed to be" would make for a dangerous combination.

You say a sorcerer should be the best at mobility and damage. You do realize that the traditional test for military hardware composes of three aspects: speed, firepower, and armor...and you think that sorcs should be best at TWO of them? What mechanics exist in ESO that prevent sorcs from being dead last in armor / survivability to justify them being top dogs at the other two? Their shields that are stronger than a Templar or DK or NB? The one hand & shield or restoration staff weapons they can use just as effectively as the other three classes?

In a game without class restrictions, it should follow that the game should be without class assumptions. The very restrictions necessary to uphold the balance assumption that a sorcerer should be kings of damage but pawns of defense are no longer there.

Edit: this does not mean the classes should be the same or homogenized. The skills should work in different ways and enable classes to do different things that give them a distinctive flavor and varied gameplay. I don't mind the sorcerer can bolt escape whereas the others cannot. Or that a DK can reflect stuff but a NB can't. Theses are two different ways of defense done with the aim that both are approximately equal in effectiveness, i.e. one is not intentionally made better than the other because one class is "supposed to the tank."

To begin one you quoted my text aimed at someone who wasn't speaking rationally not you.

After that You're basically making my point. I'm never putting words in your mouth, I'm telling you what your suggestions are entailing without you saying them. Homogenization of classes happen when everyone is concerned about what is "fair" and that happens when every aspect of every class ends up being equal or "balanced" to one another. Early on in ESO Matt Furor said they wanted your class decision to matter but that the game would still contain traditional ESO elements to "play how you want". Never in the history of any discussion with them that I've been privy to have they said they want all classes to be equal in all levels of gameplay. That defeats the purpose of classes themselves (besides being impossible to accomplish short of making the classes images of each other). I should never expect to tank as well as a DK (people who think that I can are morons) or heal as well as a Templar. I can't expect to do more physical damage than a NB. I'm fine with that. Now if I want to play a Magicka DK or a Healer Nightblade I should be able to do so, and be effective at it but *Nowhere* did anyone say those bastardizations of traditional class roles should all be equal. It's an impossibility.

Furthermore you are isolating a single component of the game (Magicka Builds) and comparing a singular aspect of it to Sorcs. That kind of cherry picking balance when making suggestions creates far more imbalance that it ever could correct anything. You have to look at the game and each class as a whole, both PvP and PvE and how it impacts all players. Sorcs should be the most effective (Ranged) magick damage dealers. If DKs do more Magick damage with melee abilities that is fine, and it suits their class and a particular playstyle.

He who does the most damage doesn't win. He who tanks the most doesn't win. Specialization into one aspect (Defense or offense) too heavily has diminishing returns even unto decreasing levels of effectiveness (Glass cannon or "stand and hold block" etc)

A sorc with my build doesn't doo too much damage. My shields aren't the biggest. I have a very, very hybrid build that is pretty easy to counter for most players. Sorcs who focus on too much damage are extremely weak to stamina drains. Sorcs who are running 5 piece heavy armor do crappy damage and have no real sustain compared to one running light armor.

What I'm trying to say without having to continue writing a book is that so many people on these forums are posting, knowing nothing about sorcs (Having a VR1 sorc doesn't mean you know a thing) and speaking as if Sorcs have the best of all worlds at the same time. We have the Best Defense, the Best Mobility, the Best Damage, the best Sustain. We can't be all of these things or even two of them at the same time. As far as I'm concerned the only thing we can do better than any class when specced for it is Mobility. I'm fine with that.

I do less damage to good players on average than they do to me. I outlast them and come out on top more often because I'm built for sustain and defense and I eventually run them out of resources and then kill them...or they're just bad and die before they're out of resources.

As far as this becoming the "Nerf Sorc" forums it isn't paranoia, it is annoyance at having to defend against utter ignorance from the same people over and over every day like a full time Job. These people continuously spread lies and bogus information in hopes of getting my class nerfed and when they get shut down by calm reasoning they create yet another thread and start the process all over again. If ZoS cared about moderating these forums they've have allowed a single thread about "Balancing Sorcs" yet I've now seen 3 different ZoS moderators close threads and point players to three seperate nerf sorc threads. Yet these same players continue their obvious nerf rants without fear of any consequences so I feel in part like I'm a moderator of this forum myself and I really don't want to be. I wouldn't even care what people say if I had *any* confidence that ZoS understood their own game and the mechanics that rule it...then I could trust them to recognize truth from lie. The issue is I've witnessed far too many bugs and "unintended" mistakes made in ignorance by the devs in this game to put any store in them being able to disseminate truth from fiction.

cozmon3c_ESO

I'm sick of all these different threads moderators, just condense them all down to one please.

Joy_Division

@ Ezareth:

It's not so much ignorance that prompts people to make "nerf sorcs" threads as it is bias. You might think they get shut down by calm reasoning but that is not what they believe. In their minds you just have your head in the sand and are ignorant of what a sorcerer is capable of in Cyrodiil and that is why these same people continue to make threads. The next time they get hit with an overload attack or see that purple bubble continuously pop up, their confirmation bias will kick in an erase whatever tingles of doubt you may have planted. I'm not sure a conversation with them is productive.

And I do not think that my idea of balance leads to the sort of homogenization that you fear. It *could* as that is one way to make things "fair," but it does not have to. As someone who absolutely despised the homogenization "fix" that came with Dungeons and Dragons 4.0, I share that fear. But, if we are going to make the classes distinctive and choice matter, I don't think it is a good idea to have one class or one archetype or one style outshine the others. Because when that is the case, then choice matters for the wrong reason: someone's character sucks. For a long time, magicka DKs were perceived to be too strong; indeed that was something admitted by the devs. The same could be said for sorcerer sustain DPS; it was so bad that class all but disappeared from the leaderboards. A game cannot hope to have any sort of sustained success when issues like this arise; they need to be addressed, that is, no one class should be noticeably better than the others. One not need to strip a class of it's uniqueness or a specific area of effectiveness to accomplish this.

I play a sorcerer a templar and a DK. I am of the belief that the most of the problems with balance in 1.6 have to do with the very different mechanics we are playing under now then when the game was originally designed: my softcap for magicka recovery used to be like 80 something, we all used to believe putting every attribute point into health was advantageous, I now never have to drink a single magicka pot during an entire Trial despite not having a single piece of gear devoted to magicka sustain, and like all RPGs, balance is much better at low levels where the developers have far more data than high levels when unintended mechanics and synergies break the game. I do not think perma-dodge rolling is healthy for the game and neither is a sorcerer whose magicka pool never drops below 50%. I do not think the designers intended for us to stack spell/weapon damage to a ridiculous degree that players instadie when they are not actively defending themselves. But it is what it is. I don't think nerfing sorcs will in anyway alleviate these underlying issues; rather the perceived problem of "OP sorcs" is symptomatic of the flawed direction the game has trended toward since launch.

Stamden

Ezareth wrote: »

As far as this becoming the "Nerf Sorc" forums it isn't paranoia, it is annoyance at having to defend against utter ignorance from the same people over and over every day like a full time Job. These people continuously spread lies and bogus information in hopes of getting my class nerfed and when they get shut down by calm reasoning they create yet another thread and start the process all over again. If ZoS cared about moderating these forums they've have allowed a single thread about "Balancing Sorcs" yet I've now seen 3 different ZoS moderators close threads and point players to three seperate nerf sorc threads. Yet these same players continue their obvious nerf rants without fear of any consequences so I feel in part like I'm a moderator of this forum myself and I really don't want to be. I wouldn't even care what people say if I had *any* confidence that ZoS understood their own game and the mechanics that rule it...then I could trust them to recognize truth from lie. The issue is I've witnessed far too many bugs and "unintended" mistakes made in ignorance by the devs in this game to put any store in them being able to disseminate truth from fiction.

Did you ever thing that maybe the majority are right and your wrong? Did you ever consider how it feels on the opposing end of what you do?

Listen, I understand. I used to play DK a lot pre-1.3, and made about 6 million AP on him in just a few months. I knew my DK was good, but I didn't know just how overpowered it was. Then I actually tried other classes and saw what it looked like to be on the other end of a DKs destruction. Oh how it felt to feel helpless against a good DK, even in a 3v1.

In a lot of ways, I believe you are in the same position. You know Sorcs are good, but you don't grasp what it actually feels to be helpless against one shield stacking and BE to no end, while procing Crystal Frags 1vXing your group. I'm not talking about your average Sorc, but the ones who know what there doing. There's not a lot of them, but it you'll know it when you see it. When a Sorc actually masters their class, they get away with a lot of things that they really shouldn't get away with. I highly recommened you try another class and see just silly fighting good Sorcs can be.

At the high end of PvP where everyone has mastered their class, Sorcs aren't the best duelers or even the best 1vX class debatebly. The problem with Sorcs is that 90% of the actual group v. group combat you see in Cyrodiil favors them over every other playstyle.

Laerwen

Neighbor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

As far as this becoming the "Nerf Sorc" forums it isn't paranoia, it is annoyance at having to defend against utter ignorance from the same people over and over every day like a full time Job. These people continuously spread lies and bogus information in hopes of getting my class nerfed and when they get shut down by calm reasoning they create yet another thread and start the process all over again. If ZoS cared about moderating these forums they've have allowed a single thread about "Balancing Sorcs" yet I've now seen 3 different ZoS moderators close threads and point players to three seperate nerf sorc threads. Yet these same players continue their obvious nerf rants without fear of any consequences so I feel in part like I'm a moderator of this forum myself and I really don't want to be. I wouldn't even care what people say if I had *any* confidence that ZoS understood their own game and the mechanics that rule it...then I could trust them to recognize truth from lie. The issue is I've witnessed far too many bugs and "unintended" mistakes made in ignorance by the devs in this game to put any store in them being able to disseminate truth from fiction.

Did you ever thing that maybe the majority are right and your wrong? Did you ever consider how it feels on the opposing end of what you do?

Listen, I understand. I used to play DK a lot pre-1.3, and made about 6 million AP on him in just a few months. I knew my DK was good, but I didn't know just how overpowered it was. Then I actually tried other classes and saw what it looked like to be on the other end of a DKs destruction. Oh how it felt to feel helpless against a good DK, even in a 3v1.

In a lot of ways, I believe you are in the same position. You know Sorcs are good, but you don't grasp what it actually feels to be helpless against one shield stacking and BE to no end, while procing Crystal Frags 1vXing your group. I'm not talking about your average Sorc, but the ones who know what there doing. There's not a lot of them, but it you'll know it when you see it. When a Sorc actually masters their class, they get away with a lot of things that they really shouldn't get away with. I highly recommened you try another class and see just silly fighting good Sorcs can be.

At the high end of PvP where everyone has mastered their class, Sorcs aren't the best duelers or even the best 1vX class debatebly. The problem with Sorcs is that 90% of the actual group v. group combat you see in Cyrodiil favors them over every other playstyle.

You and I, regardless of which side of the fence were on, are the vocal minority. Your side of the argument isnt even the majority of the minority.

That said, Im getting pretty tired of your posts. I cant take you seriously when you dont even know the difference between your, and youre, to, too and two, or there, their and theyre.

Also, do you not think that sorcs fight sorcs? I kill sorcs everyday, all day. I dont see what you see.

Stamden

Laerwen wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

As far as this becoming the "Nerf Sorc" forums it isn't paranoia, it is annoyance at having to defend against utter ignorance from the same people over and over every day like a full time Job. These people continuously spread lies and bogus information in hopes of getting my class nerfed and when they get shut down by calm reasoning they create yet another thread and start the process all over again. If ZoS cared about moderating these forums they've have allowed a single thread about "Balancing Sorcs" yet I've now seen 3 different ZoS moderators close threads and point players to three seperate nerf sorc threads. Yet these same players continue their obvious nerf rants without fear of any consequences so I feel in part like I'm a moderator of this forum myself and I really don't want to be. I wouldn't even care what people say if I had *any* confidence that ZoS understood their own game and the mechanics that rule it...then I could trust them to recognize truth from lie. The issue is I've witnessed far too many bugs and "unintended" mistakes made in ignorance by the devs in this game to put any store in them being able to disseminate truth from fiction.

Did you ever thing that maybe the majority are right and your wrong? Did you ever consider how it feels on the opposing end of what you do?

Listen, I understand. I used to play DK a lot pre-1.3, and made about 6 million AP on him in just a few months. I knew my DK was good, but I didn't know just how overpowered it was. Then I actually tried other classes and saw what it looked like to be on the other end of a DKs destruction. Oh how it felt to feel helpless against a good DK, even in a 3v1.

In a lot of ways, I believe you are in the same position. You know Sorcs are good, but you don't grasp what it actually feels to be helpless against one shield stacking and BE to no end, while procing Crystal Frags 1vXing your group. I'm not talking about your average Sorc, but the ones who know what there doing. There's not a lot of them, but it you'll know it when you see it. When a Sorc actually masters their class, they get away with a lot of things that they really shouldn't get away with. I highly recommened you try another class and see just silly fighting good Sorcs can be.

At the high end of PvP where everyone has mastered their class, Sorcs aren't the best duelers or even the best 1vX class debatebly. The problem with Sorcs is that 90% of the actual group v. group combat you see in Cyrodiil favors them over every other playstyle.

You and I, regardless of which side of the fence were on, are the vocal minority. Your side of the argument isnt even the majority of the minority.

That said, Im getting pretty tired of your posts. I cant take you seriously when you dont even know the difference between your, and youre, to, too and two, or there, their and theyre.

The downsides of typing on a phone.

Ezareth

Joy_Division wrote: »

@ Ezareth:

It's not so much ignorance that prompts people to make "nerf sorcs" threads as it is bias. You might think they get shut down by calm reasoning but that is not what they believe. In their minds you just have your head in the sand and are ignorant of what a sorcerer is capable of in Cyrodiil and that is why these same people continue to make threads. The next time they get hit with an overload attack or see that purple bubble continuously pop up, their confirmation bias will kick in an erase whatever tingles of doubt you may have planted. I'm not sure a conversation with them is productive.

And I do not think that my idea of balance leads to the sort of homogenization that you fear. It *could* as that is one way to make things "fair," but it does not have to. As someone who absolutely despised the homogenization "fix" that came with Dungeons and Dragons 4.0, I share that fear. But, if we are going to make the classes distinctive and choice matter, I don't think it is a good idea to have one class or one archetype or one style outshine the others. Because when that is the case, then choice matters for the wrong reason: someone's character sucks. For a long time, magicka DKs were perceived to be too strong; indeed that was something admitted by the devs. The same could be said for sorcerer sustain DPS; it was so bad that class all but disappeared from the leaderboards. A game cannot hope to have any sort of sustained success when issues like this arise; they need to be addressed, that is, no one class should be noticeably better than the others. One not need to strip a class of it's uniqueness or a specific area of effectiveness to accomplish this.

I play a sorcerer a templar and a DK. I am of the belief that the most of the problems with balance in 1.6 have to do with the very different mechanics we are playing under now then when the game was originally designed: my softcap for magicka recovery used to be like 80 something, we all used to believe putting every attribute point into health was advantageous, I now never have to drink a single magicka pot during an entire Trial despite not having a single piece of gear devoted to magicka sustain, and like all RPGs, balance is much better at low levels where the developers have far more data than high levels when unintended mechanics and synergies break the game. I do not think perma-dodge rolling is healthy for the game and neither is a sorcerer whose magicka pool never drops below 50%. I do not think the designers intended for us to stack spell/weapon damage to a ridiculous degree that players instadie when they are not actively defending themselves. But it is what it is. I don't think nerfing sorcs will in anyway alleviate these underlying issues; rather the perceived problem of "OP sorcs" is symptomatic of the flawed direction the game has trended toward since launch.

Well finally I find myself in complete agreement here and this is no different that I've been saying.

I think we need to tackle the largest issues first as they'll have a trick down effect that will change many classes in many ways. Who knows maybe in a resource-starved world Sorcs end up the worst class and Templars the best. We can't anticipate every build or every playstyle but I do know making balance changes (not bug fixes) to a class right now with the state of the game the way it is would be foolishness.

Thanks for keeping your head about you and helping me keep mine ( =

Neighbor wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

As far as this becoming the "Nerf Sorc" forums it isn't paranoia, it is annoyance at having to defend against utter ignorance from the same people over and over every day like a full time Job. These people continuously spread lies and bogus information in hopes of getting my class nerfed and when they get shut down by calm reasoning they create yet another thread and start the process all over again. If ZoS cared about moderating these forums they've have allowed a single thread about "Balancing Sorcs" yet I've now seen 3 different ZoS moderators close threads and point players to three seperate nerf sorc threads. Yet these same players continue their obvious nerf rants without fear of any consequences so I feel in part like I'm a moderator of this forum myself and I really don't want to be. I wouldn't even care what people say if I had *any* confidence that ZoS understood their own game and the mechanics that rule it...then I could trust them to recognize truth from lie. The issue is I've witnessed far too many bugs and "unintended" mistakes made in ignorance by the devs in this game to put any store in them being able to disseminate truth from fiction.

Did you ever thing that maybe the majority are right and your wrong? Did you ever consider how it feels on the opposing end of what you do?

Listen, I understand. I used to play DK a lot pre-1.3, and made about 6 million AP on him in just a few months. I knew my DK was good, but I didn't know just how overpowered it was. Then I actually tried other classes and saw what it looked like to be on the other end of a DKs destruction. Oh how it felt to feel helpless against a good DK, even in a 3v1.

In a lot of ways, I believe you are in the same position. You know Sorcs are good, but you don't grasp what it actually feels to be helpless against one shield stacking and BE to no end, while procing Crystal Frags 1vXing your group. I'm not talking about your average Sorc, but the ones who know what there doing. There's not a lot of them, but it you'll know it when you see it. When a Sorc actually masters their class, they get away with a lot of things that they really shouldn't get away with. I highly recommened you try another class and see just silly fighting good Sorcs can be.

At the high end of PvP where everyone has mastered their class, Sorcs aren't the best duelers or even the best 1vX class debatebly. The problem with Sorcs is that 90% of the actual group v. group combat you see in Cyrodiil favors them over every other playstyle.

I understand your point and your perspective, I just don't agree with it. I made a Nightblade "Ezareth Ali" last night to play on the Non-Vet campaign. I have no doubt I'll be quite successful with him as so many other sorcs I know of have been

I know a couple average skilled players(in my opinion) who have re-rolled sorcs are pretty bad with them. They aren't any more effective than they are on their other classes. I also know some average-skilled players who had a desire to learn everything they could who became (in my opinion) as good of a player as I am with their sorc.

As far as "Majority" and their view that has no relevance to me. Majority rule is always a terrible thing. The "Majority" are not paying for this game and judging by the number of new players to the game are about 12 months behind me in the learning curve. I learn new things almost every day I play and I have been since I started this game in one of the early beta waves. Do you expect me to believe that a bunch of players who are relatively new to the game, have little experience with other classes or PvP in general are all capable of making informed balance decisions? I often wish I had the knowledge of the game that I do today back in launch. I would be soloing emperors. I'd be a freaking God in PvP. People were that bad then. We all were....and it took a long ass time to learn to play. It doesn't happen over night, and what I feel I'm seeing on these forums lately are a lot of inexperienced players making their voices heard.

I don't see many people who I consider skilled making the same arguments as these people, despite most of those players not playing a Sorc. To me that is confirmation of my beliefs. When I start seeing good players whom I know and respect making an argument that Sorcs are OP, I take a serious and unbiased look at their argument.