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Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

    I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.
    No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.

    lol, hijack the class. The class isn't working the way it was advertised, which is the same way ALL classes are advertised, which is flexible.

    "Just pick another class, man" doesn't cut it when the class is failing at its primary design goal, which is to provide flavor.

    NB = shadow / blood flavor
    Templar = Light / purifying flavor
    DK = Fire / earth flavor
    Sorc = Lightning / arcane flavor

    All of these merely provide a thematic toolset w/ which to accomplish tasks. Classes are NOT supposed to govern your choice of weapons to the point of prohibition.

    If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.
  • Glurin
    Glurin
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    Glurin wrote: »
    You said that balance does not equal the numbers of skills when in reality it does. Stamina suffers in build variety because it does not have as many options as magicka. Therefore stamina vs magicka options are unbalanced.

    You don't think that the overall balance of build variety has any effect on the overall balance of power between resources?

    Not in the way you clearly think it does. Let me point you in the direction of TSW. In case you don't know, absolutely everybody has access to every skill and every weapon has an equal number of skills. You think they don't have balance problems? Think again.

    Weapon damage, skill damage, type and quality of buffs, healing quantities, total DOT damage v.s. DOT duration, mitigation levels, CC type and duration, cast time, damage type, resistance penetration, synergies both with skills and equipment, trigger effects, threat management, the list goes on and on. Number of skills per resource is the least important after a certain threshold, which ESO is well beyond.

    The Secret World had issues with the balance of power among builds not build diversity.

    Exactly the point.

    There is not a problem with potential build diversity in ESO.

    There is a problem with balance of power between builds.

    You have misidentified the problem as simply having not enough stamina skills compared to magicka skills. Everyone has access to all those skills and there is more than enough in each category to fill your action bars. Giving to or taking skills from either side will not solve the problem. But it will make both issues worse.
    Nutronic wrote: »

    Glurin suggested using Encase or it's moprhs, but not one else has really bothered to talk about it. Passives like disintegrate come into play for all damage dealing sorcs so you really can't address the issues associated with the more lack luster spells until you talk about the passives... which honestly I think is off topic (which is why I didn't respond to you Glurin) considering @Jar_Ek made a whole topic aimed at balancing the class which people posted on, agree on, then came right back here to argue. That being said, passives and overall class balance are just a larger piece of the puzzle, you still have to isolate and decide which abilities individually by themselves work independent of class passives.

    Another thing to point out is that stamina builds do rely on magicka spells. DKs have GDB, NB have Cloak, Templars have... everything. Just because you see a ton of spells that require magicka to cast, does not mean they don't have a utility purpose that Stamina builds have to ignore. 2H rally is currently better than surge, but only because of the CD. Personally, I don't like having to rely on my stamina bar to heal myself, I'd rather use my magicka bar. Heck, I've seen some DPSers use Entrophy, so it's not a Zero Sum game.

    Encase wasn't touched upon because leaving the skill as magicka does nothing but make it easier for magicka users to use.

    Sure. The fact that it's also usable to stamina builds and can provide some much needed utility is beside the point.
    Even if it hit more reliably and was given melee synergy it would still cost to much magicka. Therefore it would have to be reduced to entropy levels of cost to be useable by a stamina user.

    ok. :neutral:
    A stamina sorcerer already has surge and lightning form competing for it's magicka slots and small pool. Dark deal is another contender if it is changed. The room for magicka slots is filled up. Stamina sorcerers need class skills they can pull from their dominant resource.

    That's what weapon skills are for.
    Secondly the new scaling mechanics as well as the CP system encourage specializing in one resource and it's secondary stats. For all intents and purposes you are encouraged to ignore skills that don't scale with your resource when you have the option.

    A problem with the meta, not the skills. By the way, no matter what the state of the meta is, you should always be encouraged to ignore skills that don't scale with the resources you chose to specialize in. That's kind of the point to having different resources you can specialize in to begin with.
    Rally is stronger than surge because it cost less due to stacking cost reduction for one resource, it regenerates faster because of stacking regen for one resource, it scales off one resource and it's secondary stats, and it it tied to the strongest stamina skill line in the game.

    So it's stronger because you specialized in it's primary resource? And you're complaining about that? :confused:
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Glurin
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."
    However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

    Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

    A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

    /shrug

    The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.

    No, the laughable disparity in the number of available skills is how he illustrated that the Sorc issue is actually part of a larger overall problem.

    What you're doing is detracting from the issue at hand, which is the lack of viable stamina morphs for Sorcerer.

    And you feel that your opinion needs to be stated SO MUCH that you can't even let others even DISCUSS fixes to the issue in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that.

    His justification, which you apparently agree with, is that magicka has more skills than stamina. You want more stamina skills, therefore you think the best solution is to take them from magicka. You've misidentified the problem, which means you've got an incorrect solution. Worse, you won't even acknowledge the side effects that your solution would cause.

    And how dare you lecture me about respecting the opinions of others? You're so short sighted and tunnel visioned on this issue that you can't even understand why someone might think differently, so the first thing you resort to is mockery and ridicule when someone disagrees with you. And you are far from the only one in this thread with that particular problem.

    You keep calling it "my solution".

    You may want to check your facts, I'm not the one who decided to make stamina morphs this way.

    Yeah you are. Just because ZOS did it in the past doesn't mean they are required to do it again or even do it in the same way they did previously. What they changed has been changed. It's over and done with and it's time to re-evaluate the current state of things and decide on the next set of changes.

    It's pretty clear they didn't want to convert the sorcerer into another muscle bound warrior class. You, however, have been pushing for them to do just that because, in your mind, that is the only possible solution in an environment that by it's very nature is extremely complex and open to many possible solutions.

    EDIT:
    If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.

    Actually that's just the answer to those who deny that sorcerers are mage types and want the entire class redefined and the entire system of magic created over the last twenty years tossed out the window all because they wanted to play a warrior instead.
    Edited by Glurin on 29 April 2015 20:23
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Varicite
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    Glurin wrote: »
    You have misidentified the problem as simply having not enough stamina skills compared to magicka skills. Everyone has access to all those skills and there is more than enough in each category to fill your action bars. Giving to or taking skills from either side will not solve the problem. But it will make both issues worse.

    Actually, the addition of stamina-based class skill morph choices has gone a LONG way toward making stamina dps builds an acceptable choice post 1.6.

    In fact, in every class except for Sorcerer, stamina dps roles are doing very well, and the only difference between those classes and Sorcerer is the quality of the morphs chosen to use stamina.

    It should be glaringly obvious to most that the disparity between Sorc and other classes comes from this shortcoming.


    You absolutely have no basis upon which to say that rethinking the stamina morphs for Sorcerer "will not solve the problem". The truth is that evidence is set squarely against your opinion.

    Here is the real issue that needs to be fixed, and should only require a few adjustments:
    Varicite wrote: »
    Available Sorc skills and passives do not synergize well w/ stamina dps weapons, Sorcs lack stamina management almost altogether, there are zero damaging stamina abilities in the Sorc skill lines, there is a total of ONE desirable buff / debuff amongs Sorc skills (Bound Armaments), etc.

    All of this culminates in a class who, if desiring to be a stamina-based DPS role, is pigeon-holed into barely taking ANY class skills at all in an attempt to excel, and even then falls short of the mark due to being bound basically to the very limited pool of stamina-based generic abilities.

    Earlier in this thread, one of your supporters swore that there were Sorcerer stamina DPS builds capable of pulling comparable numbers to the other classes in endgame activities, namely Trials (preferably HM).

    As stated above, the ONLY difference between Sorc stam builds and other classes' is the available class morphs and synergies among passives. Literally every other factor is attainable by everyone.

    I would challenge you to pull up just ONE such Sorc stamina build that is comparable to the other classes' stam builds, and then at least you would have SOMETHING, SOME evidence to support these ridiculous claims that taking another look at the available stam morphs for Sorcs would not help the current situation.

    Until then, the evidence is set squarely against you. And no amount of arm-waving sensational hyperbole is going to trump actual, tangible proof.


    /shrug

    Edited by Varicite on 29 April 2015 20:25
  • Cathexis
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    When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.

    Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.

    And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.
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  • Glurin
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    Varicite wrote: »
    In fact, in every class except for Sorcerer, stamina dps roles are doing very well, and the only difference between those classes and Sorcerer is the quality of the morphs chosen to use stamina.

    It should be glaringly obvious to most that the disparity between Sorc and other classes comes from this shortcoming.

    Oh really? So it has nothing at all to do with the fact that most of their other skills synergise well anyway? It has nothing to do with those classes having skills specifically designed to work with melee weapons from the get go?

    You keep telling me that number of skills compared to other builds is not the problem, but every time you do you turn right around and say that it is.
    I would challenge you to pull up just ONE such Sorc stamina build that is comparable to the other classes' stam builds, and then at least you would have SOMETHING, SOME evidence to support these ridiculous claims that taking another look at the available stam morphs for Sorcs would not help the current situation.

    Until then, the evidence is set squarely against you. And no amount of arm-waving sensational hyperbole is going to trump actual, tangible proof.

    You realize you have nothing either. Just a bunch of "Well, stamina doesn't have lightning bolts, so if we change lightning bolts to stamina, stamina would have lightning bolts."

    The situation is far more complicated than that. You're not looking at why stamina might be under-performing or what larger effect changes would have or even why stamina doesn't have lighting bolts in the first place. You're just counting how many stamina skills you put on the bar.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Glurin
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.

    Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.

    And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.

    Thread kind of went like this:

    "Stamina builds don't do enough damage so we need stamina morphs."

    "That's not a good idea."

    "ZOMG! How dare you question me?! I speak for all sorcerers everywhere and you are just some crazy person that doesn't march in lock step with the rest of us!"

    It just went downhill from there. Hard not to have it degrade when that's the tone it starts with.


    Anyway,

    Stamina morphs are viewed as an option, but a very bad one. Like fixing a flat tire by just taking a good tire from some stranger's car. Sure, you no longer have a flat tire, but it likely doesn't fit on your car anyway and now you've got a very angry man trying to beat you over the head with your own tire iron. You're better off just inflating the tire or putting your spare on or calling a tow truck or even redistributing the weight in your car and slowly driving it to a gas station if you're desperate.

    Stamina morphs pretty much only solve one thing. Not having stamina morphs. However, doing something that drastic has a dramatic ripple effect and not having stamina morphs isn't even a blip on the radar when it comes to the real, practical problems sorcerers have.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Varicite
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Oh really? So it has nothing at all to do with the fact that most of their other skills synergise well anyway?

    Literally from the post you quoted w/out actually bothering to read:
    Varicite wrote: »
    Available Sorc skills and passives do not synergize well w/ stamina dps weapons, Sorcs lack stamina management almost altogether, there are zero damaging stamina abilities in the Sorc skill lines, there is a total of ONE desirable buff / debuff amongs Sorc skills (Bound Armaments), etc.

    All of this culminates in a class who, if desiring to be a stamina-based DPS role, is pigeon-holed into barely taking ANY class skills at all in an attempt to excel, and even then falls short of the mark due to being bound basically to the very limited pool of stamina-based generic abilities.

    And yes, it does have plenty to do w/ the fact that Sorcerer doesn't have anything designed to work from melee range, hence one reason why the available morphs need to be looked at a bit further.

    There are other factors as well that you have decided to completely ignore while (again) cherrypicking one tiny part of a post and trying to detract from the actual discussion at hand.

    It has nothing to do w/ the NUMBER of skills, which you cannot seem to drop, it has everything to do w/ the QUALITY of the available morphs and the lack of synergy provided overall by the Sorcerer skill lines and passives.
    Glurin wrote: »
    You realize you have nothing either. Just a bunch of "Well, stamina doesn't have lightning bolts, so if we change lightning bolts to stamina, stamina would have lightning bolts."

    No, again, you are wrong. What I have on my side is actual evidence that Sorcerer stamina-based DPS is under-performing when compared to the other classes. You can have this too w/ a few quick Google searches.

    What I also have is actual evidence that Stamina Sorcerers were not this far behind the other classes prior to the 1.6 changes, that took away Sorc's most unique utility (highest weapon damage through Surge) and also saw a smattering of changes that benefited the other classes far more than the Sorcerer.

    What you have is more nonsensical rhetoric thrown into posts to hide the fact that you can't seem to properly respond to anything that has actually been written, and instead keep going off on these ridiculous tangents.

    The situation is clearly NOT fine, we ALL know it's not fine, and something needs to be done about it.

    Your argument has been loud and clear: Don't improve Sorcerers in the same way that you improved the other classes.

    We've read all your dogma, all your chicken little hyperbole, all your arm-waving and foot-stomping in absolute disagreement to the way that ZOS is handling stamina morphs.

    However, if you dislike how things were handled, you should start your own thread about that. This one is about the lack of available stamina morphs and lacking synergies for stam-based DPS Sorcerers.

    And you have been doing your darndest to derail and twist it into your personal platform to tell ZOS how much you dislike the stamina class skill morph idea instead.

    Stay on topic.
  • Erock25
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.

    Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.

    And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.

    Thread kind of went like this:

    "Stamina builds don't do enough damage so we need stamina morphs."

    "That's not a good idea."

    "ZOMG! How dare you question me?! I speak for all sorcerers everywhere and you are just some crazy person that doesn't march in lock step with the rest of us!"

    It just went downhill from there. Hard not to have it degrade when that's the tone it starts with.


    You clearly haven't been following the thread. Two people in particular have been saying they speak for all Sorcerers and are against stamina morphs getting options. In fact, these two post in such roundabout self serving manners that this thread has become completely and utterly useless.
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  • Glurin
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    Varicite wrote: »
    It has nothing to do w/ the NUMBER of skills, which you cannot seem to drop, it has everything to do w/ the QUALITY of the available morphs and the lack of synergy provided overall by the Sorcerer skill lines and passives.

    Then why are you OBSESSED with increasing the NUMBER of skills and not the QUALITY of morphs and synergy? :angry:
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Varicite
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    It has nothing to do w/ the NUMBER of skills, which you cannot seem to drop, it has everything to do w/ the QUALITY of the available morphs and the lack of synergy provided overall by the Sorcerer skill lines and passives.

    Then why are you OBSESSED with increasing the NUMBER of skills and not the QUALITY of morphs and synergy? :angry:

    I'm not.

    That's just some argument that you made up some time ago and have been arguing against ever since.

    What I actually said was that we need to look at what is missing from the class as compared to other classes in an effort to shore up the shortcomings. I have posted continually saying that if/when new morphs are made or changed, these should probably include: armor debuff, stamina management, healing debuff?, etc.

    Some of those things that are missing were even in the post that you quoted.

    I'm not sure how I am not discussing the quality of morph options when I have constantly been talking about the quality of morph options... <.<

    In fact, nobody in these 11 pages has EVER said to just give Sorcs more stamina morphs and just be done w/ it. Every single post that was actually on topic has said that this is just one step toward bringing Sorcerer's in line w/ the intended vision for all classes.

    Edited by Varicite on 29 April 2015 22:08
  • Glurin
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.

    Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.

    And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.

    Thread kind of went like this:

    "Stamina builds don't do enough damage so we need stamina morphs."

    "That's not a good idea."

    "ZOMG! How dare you question me?! I speak for all sorcerers everywhere and you are just some crazy person that doesn't march in lock step with the rest of us!"

    It just went downhill from there. Hard not to have it degrade when that's the tone it starts with.


    You clearly haven't been following the thread. Two people in particular have been saying they speak for all Sorcerers and are against stamina morphs getting options. In fact, these two post in such roundabout self serving manners that this thread has become completely and utterly useless.

    "The 'we' he is talking about is literally everyone besides you."

    That one was specifically spoken by you, Erock, in response to someone disagreeing with your take on a particular sorcerer skill.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Mumnoch
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    There's a new MMO set to release in May. Now that this game is B2P I've no intention of paying any more money to support this company until they fix the Sorc class (and personally the biased female prudish armor).


    There's new MMO's coming out and soon a new TES game. Zenimax had their chance and blew it imo. Through attrition and ignoring us they have managed to whittle down the number of Sorc complaint post's to just a few staying on the first page. I do not believe they will do anything to help the Sorc community out and I'm one of many that thinks this way.

    Speak with your time and your wallet. It has been proven time and time again the only way a company will listen is if they suffer monetary damage from it (right @Steam ?). Hurt Zenimax's bottom line and then and only then will they do something to change.
  • byrom101b16_ESO
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

    I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

    No you didn't.

    But then cramming whatever distortion of what has been said that best serves your agenda 'between the lines' of any post which disagrees with your 'one true way' is pretty much your modus operandi.

    You do love your labels.

    TES lore has had Mages as a guild and significantly subscribed-to playstyle as a central game element far more than the almost unnoticeable 'Sorcerer', and has in any case been a classless IP for most of it's history.

    I know you don't like the fact so many players play their Sorcerers as Mages - and that before 1.6 and after 1.6 they were designed as Mages - it really seems to irritate you in fact!

    I know you'd dearly love to convince those not paying enough attention to the facts that Zenimax 'always intended' to have stamina hybridisation for the class, even though they were the one class untouched by such revision post 1.6. Read my post again if you didn't follow on the first reading the ease with which I shot that revisionist propaganda down.

    If Zenimax had called Sorcerers Mages instead, I wonder if the ridiculous counterpoint in this thread wouldn't have happened? It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how people play the class though.

    In the end - you may well, and on the balance of it, it looks likely that you'll get what you want to some extent or other. The only thing that might derail your expectations is if Zenimax become aware of the comparative numbers of stamina hybridisation supporters to magicka supporters and it turns out to be significantly imbalanced against your point of view.

    With the train more or less on the tracks you desire for the moment, better not to risk a sudden points change eh? But U-turns are not something Zenimax are strangers to - so I'd confidently predict that you are counting the days with your fingers crossed.

    And it's quite a lot of days isn't it!? Plenty of time for the counter-argument to get it's point across. :wink:

    There was a short period in which you characterised me as a 'the lone voice in the wilderness' on this issue. In fact it was really very important for you to do that wasn't it?

    Now other players have woken up to the stamina agenda and are saying that they don't like it either - you can't use that label anymore now can you...

    So you come up with "terrified"?

    That's pretty comical.


    You continue to use the term stamina hybridisation (sic) for some reason. I want a full stamina build, using magicka skills as utility/buffs just the same as a full magicka build uses stamina for defense/CC breaks.

    The name Sorcerer means nothing when it comes to what the class deserves. What does mean something is that this is an MMO with only four classes and it is wrong for ZOS to make one class non-stamina compliant one year into the game's life. I know I've explained myself before, but Stamina Sorc was a much stronger DPS than a Magicka Sorc. I am aware your counter argument would be that well more people play magicka, but if you want to base decisions based on herd mentality you're gonna have a bad time.

    Well...

    ... the highlighted sections in your post reminds me of that scene in 'A Few Good Men' where the lawyer puts his question forcefully and repeatedly enough that the senior office in the dock finally blurts out his real agenda - the one he's been trying to hide all the way through the trial...

    I have been telling you I saw through your façade to the real reason you want those 'modest' stamina changes - so YOU could have the build YOU want, that being a FULL Stamina build on a Sorcerer !!??... and higher dps than any magicka build - which of course weapon damage and stamina currently provides in other classes...

    Wanting your epeen damage numbers maxed out hardly surprises me, but you played a Sorcerer to have a bar filled entirely with stamina abilities?

    Do you realise how illogical that is!!??

    I always thought your protestations of 'just wanting to improve the class' were a smokescreen.

    I never thought I'd get you to flat out admit it though.

    You have surprised me! :smiley:

    The next sections I highlighted using italics speaks volumes about your position. You think YOUR opinion defines without question "what the class deserves"?

    You are so certain of your own righteousness it's no wonder you don't want to hear other peoples opinions unless they dovetail with yours... nice that you equate what more people than you may want that's different as an iteration of 'herd mentality'.

    If one could possibly take a more arrogant and condescending standpoint from which to argue on an issue, I do wonder what that might be?

    Bearing the answer to that question firmly in mind... and as for keeping the thread 'live' is concerned - I'd not be so smug about it. It's a showcase for your circular self-righteous logic and self-serving agenda, and I for one am very happy for you to keep responding in that manner.

    Having the cheerleader for the other side of a debate undermine their own argument is a gift! lol

    Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on 30 April 2015 07:59
  • exiledtyrant
    exiledtyrant
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    Stamina morphs have been proven to work for other classes. You have only to look at this commonly used theory craft site to see the proliferation of competitive new stamina builds where there was none months before:

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/

    Take any class from page 1-10 and see how that in a 1-6 month time span stamina builds have gone through changes. There has been a definite increase of new competitive ( if not entirely optimal) stamina builds using the new class morphs where there were almost none before. Even so competitive magicka builds are still so numerous you need more than both hands to count them but they are not so dominant as they were.

    This is true for every class but the sorcerer who's stamina morphs in dark deal and bound armaments fell flat. ZOS tried reducing the magicka cost on abilities. Encase was given a 15% reduction. It didn't help. If it was reduced anymore it would just be a free skill for magicka sorcerers, and I believe every class should have to pay for their abilities not get a free ride in the guise of helping stamina.

    Magicka has more builds available even now because magicka has access to more skills. When other classes got their new stamina morphs more stamina builds were able to be made because they received more options. Balance of build diversity indirectly effects the overall balance of power. Balance of build diversity chief concern however is giving everyone several options for their choice of game play style. Magicka sorcerer has this and stamina sorcerer does not.

    If this was about damage every stamina sorc would have rolled the generic wrecking blow build that was listed during the PTS testing. it is capable of pulling well into the 15k+ dps range. It was displayed as doing so with any class. It is a souless build that performs one function, damage, and requires almost no class support. Genius in it's implementation and function but souless. Stamina morphs are not about that. They are about letting stamina sorcerers have class defining options that are viable ( if not competitive) that pull from their main resource. This used to be by having more weapon damage, but it doesn't have to be. It does however need to be stamina based. Everyone else is able to build more than a generic weapon user and now it is the sorcerer's turn.
    Edited by exiledtyrant on 30 April 2015 11:57
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
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  • CP5
    CP5
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.

    But see, heres the problem. Some sorcerer advocates will see this being helpful to stamina sorcerers and as we know that is an unacceptable compromise. Aside from that problem it could be an interesting way to give the class something to help stamina management.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    Cathexis wrote: »
    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.

    That is way over the top OP considering PVP.
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  • CP5
    CP5
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    ✭✭✭
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.

    That is way over the top OP considering PVP.

    2 Ideas that could balance that, 1.) It could only restore a percent of missing stamina (still very very powerful) or 2.) It only provides stamina at the end or as a restore over time (restores stamina like rally, but likely without the reduced cost).
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.

    That is way over the top OP considering PVP.

    2 Ideas that could balance that, 1.) It could only restore a percent of missing stamina (still very very powerful) or 2.) It only provides stamina at the end or as a restore over time (restores stamina like rally, but likely without the reduced cost).

    They could easily just remove the channel portion of Dark Exchange and morphs to accomplish almost the exactly the same thing, but using a skill that was already designed for doing this.

    It would act like a Sorc version of Equilibrium, basically.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Varicite wrote: »
    CP5 wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.

    That is way over the top OP considering PVP.

    2 Ideas that could balance that, 1.) It could only restore a percent of missing stamina (still very very powerful) or 2.) It only provides stamina at the end or as a restore over time (restores stamina like rally, but likely without the reduced cost).

    They could easily just remove the channel portion of Dark Exchange and morphs to accomplish almost the exactly the same thing, but using a skill that was already designed for doing this.

    It would act like a Sorc version of Equilibrium, basically.

    I would love to see this kind of thing happen. Toggle (eck) the skill then have your regen from one attribute go into others. Would be a unique and interesting way for the class to manage resources. But as long as ZOS doesn't say anything the most we can do is throw around ideas and debate the already established game design.
  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    I think a regen over the 15 seconds makes a lot of sense, it differs from dark exchange in that dark exchange also heals you, and it would be good to have access to both mana and stam regen utilities if the expectation is to keep teleport mana only (which on a separate note really needs rebalancing to something like using a % mana remaining with a minimum cost or something because right now stam sorcs can basically teleport 1-2 times max and really they need mobility MORE and not less)
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    Also I use the stamina morph of dark exchange and it really should be equally efficient to the other morph
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  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    I think I prefer a major stamina regeneration tied to critical surge and a cost reduction to both surge and lighting form. As lightning form already works for stamina builds, it just rather expensive. Critical Surge should but doesn't. In fact surge generally doesn't due to the healing cool down.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    Things the stam sorc had before 1.6 .....

    -10% cheaper utility magicka skills
    -The highest weapon damage possible in game

    We'll never have the highest weapon dmg anymore because templar has a passive for it, but at least they should give us access to Minor Brutality. Minor Brutality, a stam regen buff somewhere, and a bit cheaper Critical Surge or some other passive skill love is all we need.
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Erock25 those would definitely help but mobility is the other issue for me -- extreme mobility is a keystone of the class survival and I think its essential that stamina sorcs receive the same access to mobility as their magicka counterparts.
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    I think critical surge definitely needs to be more stamina friendly. From a tank perspective, I only use critical surge on my 2 hand flip. It may be that it, too, needs regen properties for stamina to provide regen options for both tank and DPS builds
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  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    I guess they could:

    1. Reduce the cost of lightning form, esp Thundering Presence as this won't change much for magicka but will help stamina.
    2. Reduce the cost of surge (same reasons as above)
    3. Fix the heal cool down of surge so that it is reliable but limit the number or amount of healing from aoe damage
    4. Add a major endurance regeneration buff to critical surge so that there is one and critical surge is useful
    5. Make streak provide magicka back based on the number of targets hit (helps stamina by essentially reducing cost and promotes its use offensively = less running away = happier pvpers)
    6. Make encase snare morph ground targetable (circular aoe) and add a cost reduction of 5% per 20% when used at less than max range to a max of 20% (so if placed on top of yourself its 20% less expensive)
    7. Change dark exchange to kill one resource regeneration and double the other two. Make it a toggle.
    8. Make daedric mines scale off stamina or magicka. Reduce the cost of all variants that have a 3s cast by 20%.
    9. Make all pets damage scale with magicka or stamina. Make pet health scale up with health of summoner.
    10. Make empowered ward scale of health
    11. Change bound armour to be minor protection. Aegis to add armour and spell resist. Armaments to increase light and heavy damage.

    How does that sound? Admittedly it does nothing for the magicka centric passives, but it would help stamina lot without crippling magicka. Oh and I deliberately dodged any direct stamina morph issues... one damage one would probably still be needed...
  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    The only one I have a problem with is dark exchange. That's a huge, huge nerf. That spell is a great spell for making a come back in a pinch. I think stamina regen needs to come from elsewhere in addition to this spell.

    What it needs is to have the movement trait completely removed and the stamina regen ratio to be on par with its morph counterpart. The movement component of this completely throws off your spell casting because it will still cast spells that you have pressed after it completes the transaction instead of canceling the animation. It was way better before when if you wanted to cancel dark exchange you could just press forward or any skill.
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  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Well my suggestion would have no movement penalty, and no penalty to casting in any way.
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