eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?
I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.
exiledtyrant wrote: »You said that balance does not equal the numbers of skills when in reality it does. Stamina suffers in build variety because it does not have as many options as magicka. Therefore stamina vs magicka options are unbalanced.
You don't think that the overall balance of build variety has any effect on the overall balance of power between resources?
Not in the way you clearly think it does. Let me point you in the direction of TSW. In case you don't know, absolutely everybody has access to every skill and every weapon has an equal number of skills. You think they don't have balance problems? Think again.
Weapon damage, skill damage, type and quality of buffs, healing quantities, total DOT damage v.s. DOT duration, mitigation levels, CC type and duration, cast time, damage type, resistance penetration, synergies both with skills and equipment, trigger effects, threat management, the list goes on and on. Number of skills per resource is the least important after a certain threshold, which ESO is well beyond.
The Secret World had issues with the balance of power among builds not build diversity.
Glurin suggested using Encase or it's moprhs, but not one else has really bothered to talk about it. Passives like disintegrate come into play for all damage dealing sorcs so you really can't address the issues associated with the more lack luster spells until you talk about the passives... which honestly I think is off topic (which is why I didn't respond to you Glurin) considering @Jar_Ek made a whole topic aimed at balancing the class which people posted on, agree on, then came right back here to argue. That being said, passives and overall class balance are just a larger piece of the puzzle, you still have to isolate and decide which abilities individually by themselves work independent of class passives.
Another thing to point out is that stamina builds do rely on magicka spells. DKs have GDB, NB have Cloak, Templars have... everything. Just because you see a ton of spells that require magicka to cast, does not mean they don't have a utility purpose that Stamina builds have to ignore. 2H rally is currently better than surge, but only because of the CD. Personally, I don't like having to rely on my stamina bar to heal myself, I'd rather use my magicka bar. Heck, I've seen some DPSers use Entrophy, so it's not a Zero Sum game.
Encase wasn't touched upon because leaving the skill as magicka does nothing but make it easier for magicka users to use.
Even if it hit more reliably and was given melee synergy it would still cost to much magicka. Therefore it would have to be reduced to entropy levels of cost to be useable by a stamina user.
A stamina sorcerer already has surge and lightning form competing for it's magicka slots and small pool. Dark deal is another contender if it is changed. The room for magicka slots is filled up. Stamina sorcerers need class skills they can pull from their dominant resource.
Secondly the new scaling mechanics as well as the CP system encourage specializing in one resource and it's secondary stats. For all intents and purposes you are encouraged to ignore skills that don't scale with your resource when you have the option.
Rally is stronger than surge because it cost less due to stacking cost reduction for one resource, it regenerates faster because of stacking regen for one resource, it scales off one resource and it's secondary stats, and it it tied to the strongest stamina skill line in the game.
exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."exiledtyrant wrote: »However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.
Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.
/shrug
The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.
No, the laughable disparity in the number of available skills is how he illustrated that the Sorc issue is actually part of a larger overall problem.
What you're doing is detracting from the issue at hand, which is the lack of viable stamina morphs for Sorcerer.
And you feel that your opinion needs to be stated SO MUCH that you can't even let others even DISCUSS fixes to the issue in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that.
His justification, which you apparently agree with, is that magicka has more skills than stamina. You want more stamina skills, therefore you think the best solution is to take them from magicka. You've misidentified the problem, which means you've got an incorrect solution. Worse, you won't even acknowledge the side effects that your solution would cause.
And how dare you lecture me about respecting the opinions of others? You're so short sighted and tunnel visioned on this issue that you can't even understand why someone might think differently, so the first thing you resort to is mockery and ridicule when someone disagrees with you. And you are far from the only one in this thread with that particular problem.
You keep calling it "my solution".
You may want to check your facts, I'm not the one who decided to make stamina morphs this way.
If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.
You have misidentified the problem as simply having not enough stamina skills compared to magicka skills. Everyone has access to all those skills and there is more than enough in each category to fill your action bars. Giving to or taking skills from either side will not solve the problem. But it will make both issues worse.
Available Sorc skills and passives do not synergize well w/ stamina dps weapons, Sorcs lack stamina management almost altogether, there are zero damaging stamina abilities in the Sorc skill lines, there is a total of ONE desirable buff / debuff amongs Sorc skills (Bound Armaments), etc.
All of this culminates in a class who, if desiring to be a stamina-based DPS role, is pigeon-holed into barely taking ANY class skills at all in an attempt to excel, and even then falls short of the mark due to being bound basically to the very limited pool of stamina-based generic abilities.
In fact, in every class except for Sorcerer, stamina dps roles are doing very well, and the only difference between those classes and Sorcerer is the quality of the morphs chosen to use stamina.
It should be glaringly obvious to most that the disparity between Sorc and other classes comes from this shortcoming.
I would challenge you to pull up just ONE such Sorc stamina build that is comparable to the other classes' stam builds, and then at least you would have SOMETHING, SOME evidence to support these ridiculous claims that taking another look at the available stam morphs for Sorcs would not help the current situation.
Until then, the evidence is set squarely against you. And no amount of arm-waving sensational hyperbole is going to trump actual, tangible proof.
When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.
Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.
And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.
Oh really? So it has nothing at all to do with the fact that most of their other skills synergise well anyway?
Available Sorc skills and passives do not synergize well w/ stamina dps weapons, Sorcs lack stamina management almost altogether, there are zero damaging stamina abilities in the Sorc skill lines, there is a total of ONE desirable buff / debuff amongs Sorc skills (Bound Armaments), etc.
All of this culminates in a class who, if desiring to be a stamina-based DPS role, is pigeon-holed into barely taking ANY class skills at all in an attempt to excel, and even then falls short of the mark due to being bound basically to the very limited pool of stamina-based generic abilities.
You realize you have nothing either. Just a bunch of "Well, stamina doesn't have lightning bolts, so if we change lightning bolts to stamina, stamina would have lightning bolts."
When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.
Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.
And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.
Thread kind of went like this:
"Stamina builds don't do enough damage so we need stamina morphs."
"That's not a good idea."
"ZOMG! How dare you question me?! I speak for all sorcerers everywhere and you are just some crazy person that doesn't march in lock step with the rest of us!"
It just went downhill from there. Hard not to have it degrade when that's the tone it starts with.
It has nothing to do w/ the NUMBER of skills, which you cannot seem to drop, it has everything to do w/ the QUALITY of the available morphs and the lack of synergy provided overall by the Sorcerer skill lines and passives.
It has nothing to do w/ the NUMBER of skills, which you cannot seem to drop, it has everything to do w/ the QUALITY of the available morphs and the lack of synergy provided overall by the Sorcerer skill lines and passives.
Then why are you OBSESSED with increasing the NUMBER of skills and not the QUALITY of morphs and synergy?
When I read his thread I'm not understanding why stamina morphs are not being viewed as one possible option. Just as adjusting mana costs and enhancing stamina build synergy (although non specific as that last one is) are possible options.
Right now this thread reads as a moan fest about stamina morphs when it should be a compendium of options for enhancing stamina oriented sorcerers.
And yes, that does mean magicka builds will likely have to make concessions but the hope is those would be minimal. I don't want to see magicka builds nerfed just like I don't think any other stamina sorc does either. Change doesn't automatically mean nerfbat spam. You just have to think harder about restructuring.
Thread kind of went like this:
"Stamina builds don't do enough damage so we need stamina morphs."
"That's not a good idea."
"ZOMG! How dare you question me?! I speak for all sorcerers everywhere and you are just some crazy person that doesn't march in lock step with the rest of us!"
It just went downhill from there. Hard not to have it degrade when that's the tone it starts with.
You clearly haven't been following the thread. Two people in particular have been saying they speak for all Sorcerers and are against stamina morphs getting options. In fact, these two post in such roundabout self serving manners that this thread has become completely and utterly useless.
byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?
I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.
No you didn't.
But then cramming whatever distortion of what has been said that best serves your agenda 'between the lines' of any post which disagrees with your 'one true way' is pretty much your modus operandi.
You do love your labels.
TES lore has had Mages as a guild and significantly subscribed-to playstyle as a central game element far more than the almost unnoticeable 'Sorcerer', and has in any case been a classless IP for most of it's history.
I know you don't like the fact so many players play their Sorcerers as Mages - and that before 1.6 and after 1.6 they were designed as Mages - it really seems to irritate you in fact!
I know you'd dearly love to convince those not paying enough attention to the facts that Zenimax 'always intended' to have stamina hybridisation for the class, even though they were the one class untouched by such revision post 1.6. Read my post again if you didn't follow on the first reading the ease with which I shot that revisionist propaganda down.
If Zenimax had called Sorcerers Mages instead, I wonder if the ridiculous counterpoint in this thread wouldn't have happened? It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how people play the class though.
In the end - you may well, and on the balance of it, it looks likely that you'll get what you want to some extent or other. The only thing that might derail your expectations is if Zenimax become aware of the comparative numbers of stamina hybridisation supporters to magicka supporters and it turns out to be significantly imbalanced against your point of view.
With the train more or less on the tracks you desire for the moment, better not to risk a sudden points change eh? But U-turns are not something Zenimax are strangers to - so I'd confidently predict that you are counting the days with your fingers crossed.
And it's quite a lot of days isn't it!? Plenty of time for the counter-argument to get it's point across.
There was a short period in which you characterised me as a 'the lone voice in the wilderness' on this issue. In fact it was really very important for you to do that wasn't it?
Now other players have woken up to the stamina agenda and are saying that they don't like it either - you can't use that label anymore now can you...
So you come up with "terrified"?
That's pretty comical.
You continue to use the term stamina hybridisation (sic) for some reason. I want a full stamina build, using magicka skills as utility/buffs just the same as a full magicka build uses stamina for defense/CC breaks.
The name Sorcerer means nothing when it comes to what the class deserves. What does mean something is that this is an MMO with only four classes and it is wrong for ZOS to make one class non-stamina compliant one year into the game's life. I know I've explained myself before, but Stamina Sorc was a much stronger DPS than a Magicka Sorc. I am aware your counter argument would be that well more people play magicka, but if you want to base decisions based on herd mentality you're gonna have a bad time.
Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
That is way over the top OP considering PVP.
Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
That is way over the top OP considering PVP.
2 Ideas that could balance that, 1.) It could only restore a percent of missing stamina (still very very powerful) or 2.) It only provides stamina at the end or as a restore over time (restores stamina like rally, but likely without the reduced cost).
Just throwing an idea out, what if boundless storm, in addition to increasing run speed, had a slightly reduced magika cost ands returned 35% of your stamina? That way it would be a slow spammable that would return a lot ofnstamina for stamina users and a fast spammable that returns a smaller amount of stamina for magicka users. It remainsna magicka skill and provides utility for both class styles.
That is way over the top OP considering PVP.
2 Ideas that could balance that, 1.) It could only restore a percent of missing stamina (still very very powerful) or 2.) It only provides stamina at the end or as a restore over time (restores stamina like rally, but likely without the reduced cost).
They could easily just remove the channel portion of Dark Exchange and morphs to accomplish almost the exactly the same thing, but using a skill that was already designed for doing this.
It would act like a Sorc version of Equilibrium, basically.