Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Glurin

CP5 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

...
You don't get to rewrite the basic principles of the class just because you want to be something other than what the class is. If you're a nightblade, your skills are going to have a stealthy and agile theme. If you're a dragonknight, your skills are going to be up close and personal fiery damage sponge. If you're a templar, your skills are going to be holy and healing. And if you're a sorcerer, you're going to be a damage dealing mage. NOBODY IS SAYING THIS MEANS YOU HAVE TO PUT ON A DRESS AND GROW A BEARD EXCEPT YOU!
...

I just wanted to outline this argument here for clarification. You start by saying how nb's are innately stealthy and agile (and I would like to add in the fact their form of healing from siphons also defines the class heavily), and how dk's innately have more durability at the cost of range and templars have the healing and holy magic (elaborating on "holy magic" as more focused on utility over damage). That is exactly my personal point as each of these are general tool kits that define how you play and how the class acts in different roles. A dk can tank sure with their class built durability, but a nb can tank just as well in a different way, utilizing what makes the class unique.

You then say that sorcerer's are only damage dealing mages (what I got out of you saying "you're going to be"), but that doesn't fit the rest of your statement.

A poor choice of words then. The gist is that each class comes with certain expectations for what defines the class as a whole. In the case of the sorcerer, they are going to be "mage" focused. Lots of magic and special effects and tapping into the energy of the universe kind of stuff. Whatever else someone chooses to do with their character, that is the very definition of a sorcerer. If they picked the class believing anything other than that, then they were only lying to themselves.

That is not a damage dealing mage, that is a class with a vast amount of utility that could potentially go far in any build, if it weren't for how restricted and sometimes flawed the individual skills are. You do say that you don't need to "put on a dress and grow a beard" but in the current meta, if you don't focus heavily on one resource and build for it you won't have the ability to use those skills to any real effect.

And that is more of a problem with the current meta than it is with the sorcerer class in particular.

Look, I know people want their stamina build to be strong. I get that. I really do. But just converting magicka skills into stamina skills, ESPECIALLY damage skills, will only make the overall problem worse. The solution is NOT in giving stamina more skills stolen from magicka. The solution is in adjusting magicka skills so that they work with stamina builds. You don't see anyone seriously asking for magicka morphs of weapon skills do you?

Erock25

Glurin wrote: »

Look, I know people want their stamina build to be strong. I get that. I really do. But just converting magicka skills into stamina skills, ESPECIALLY damage skills, will only make the overall problem worse. The solution is NOT in giving stamina more skills stolen from magicka. The solution is in adjusting magicka skills so that they work with stamina builds. You don't see anyone seriously asking for magicka morphs of weapon skills do you?

What is the overall problem for you? You say giving Sorc a stamina morph or two will not help the problem, but you don't highlight the problem. The problem being discussed in this topic is the lack of stamina morphs, particularly a dmg dealing one, so it seems to me that giving sorc a dmg dealing stamina morph will directly solve the problem. Also, there already are magicka morphs of weapon skills called Destruction and Restoration Staff.

Glurin

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Look, I know people want their stamina build to be strong. I get that. I really do. But just converting magicka skills into stamina skills, ESPECIALLY damage skills, will only make the overall problem worse. The solution is NOT in giving stamina more skills stolen from magicka. The solution is in adjusting magicka skills so that they work with stamina builds. You don't see anyone seriously asking for magicka morphs of weapon skills do you?

What is the overall problem for you? You say giving Sorc a stamina morph or two will not help the problem, but you don't highlight the problem. The problem being discussed in this topic is the lack of stamina morphs, particularly a dmg dealing one, so it seems to me that giving sorc a dmg dealing stamina morph will directly solve the problem. Also, there already are magicka morphs of weapon skills called Destruction and Restoration Staff.

You've misidentified the problem as lack of stamina morphs when the real problem is lack of synergy between class skills and stamina builds which results in a lack of stamina build DPS and utility overall.

Lets say you just switch a damage ability over to stamina, solving the "problem" of not having stamina based class damage ability. Now a stamina build can spam a class damage ability till the cows come home. Nothing really changed except now magicka builds are forced into using other abilities, not to mention you outright violated the integrity of the world in which ESO exists. Versatility suffers, magicka gets pigeonholed and loses another piece of it's identity, and to top it all off stamina DPS still sucks.

Now lets say you fix Encase so that it hits things easier. Suddenly both magicka and stamina builds have a whole new set of possibilities opened up for them and you didn't even have to make any drastic changes to do it.

See the difference? A small adjustment can have a much more positive impact than an amputation.

Varicite

I suggested something that provided more utility than just a spammable damage ability, which isn't the real issue (though it wouldn't hurt to have this as well).

I've said many times over that stamina-based dps Sorcs are lacking in other additions that most classes have access to, such as armor debuffs, stamina management, execute-style abilities, etc.

exiledtyrant

The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total. As if stamina could be stealing anything by being that far behind. The problem reaches far beyond having a good dps skill to spam. It's about having class defining abilities that use the right resource and scaling. Having more build options that allow a person to make meaningful choices for their class rather than being sword person #15351617271 because none of their class skills matter. Magicka certainly doesn't run out of options and it can afford to give up 2-4. Right now being a stamina sorcerer doesn't mean anything because the class isn't supporting it properly. Giving stamina sorcerers actual options within their own class skills is a step in the right direction. They deserve to have their play style defined and supported just like every other class.

Glurin

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

exiledtyrant

Glurin wrote: »

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

Let's look at the definition of balance:

bal·ance
ˈbaləns/
noun
noun: balance; plural noun: balances

1.
an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.
2.
a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Secondly you are restricted in which skills you use as your resource and secondary stats dictate scaling and usage. Using a magicka skill in a stamina build or a stamina skill in a magicka build is most often as prohibitive as it is inefficient. There are very few outliers in the new system.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

And no one is even asking for that. At most, people have asked for 1-2 skills that have desirable secondary effects that would help the situation.

Perhaps some better synergies from existing passives.

Nowhere in any of these responses has anyone asked to have even close to the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills.

Why do you keep straying from what's actually being discussed? <.<

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

And no one is even asking for that. At most, people have asked for 1-2 skills that have desirable secondary effects that would help the situation.

Perhaps some better synergies from existing passives.

Nowhere in any of these responses has anyone asked to have even close to the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills.

Why do you keep straying from what's actually being discussed? <.<

*cough*

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."



He even had to quote the dictionary definition, which doesn't support him either.

It's a pretty basic concept. Which one is a more balanced meal? Six carrots and a steak, or six carrots and six steaks?

I believe the expression "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts." can also apply here.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."

exiledtyrant wrote: »

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

/shrug

exiledtyrant

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

And no one is even asking for that. At most, people have asked for 1-2 skills that have desirable secondary effects that would help the situation.

Perhaps some better synergies from existing passives.

Nowhere in any of these responses has anyone asked to have even close to the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills.

Why do you keep straying from what's actually being discussed? <.<

*cough*

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."



He even had to quote the dictionary definition, which doesn't support him either.

It's a pretty basic concept. Which one is a more balanced meal? Six carrots and a steak, or six carrots and six steaks?

I believe the expression "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts." can also apply here.

How does the stark inequality of available magicka skills compared to stamina skills not show that they are unbalanced when the very definition of balance states the opposite?

You said that balance does not equal the numbers of skills when in reality it does. Stamina suffers in build variety because it does not have as many options as magicka. Therefore stamina vs magicka options are unbalanced.

You don't think that the overall balance of build variety has any effect on the overall balance of power between resources?

Lastly that analogy is pretty poor. It should be who is getting more overall nutrition? The magicka user with access to 5 carrots and 1 steak or the stamina user with access to only 1 carrot?

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."

exiledtyrant wrote: »

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

/shrug

The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.

Glurin

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Balance != having the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills. Especially since you are not restricted from using one or the other.

And no one is even asking for that. At most, people have asked for 1-2 skills that have desirable secondary effects that would help the situation.

Perhaps some better synergies from existing passives.

Nowhere in any of these responses has anyone asked to have even close to the same number of stamina skills as magicka skills.

Why do you keep straying from what's actually being discussed? <.<

*cough*

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."



He even had to quote the dictionary definition, which doesn't support him either.

It's a pretty basic concept. Which one is a more balanced meal? Six carrots and a steak, or six carrots and six steaks?

I believe the expression "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts." can also apply here.

How does the stark inequality of available magicka skills compared to stamina skills not show that they are unbalanced when the very definition of balance states the opposite?

Because the number of skills are not what is important and as things stand right now do not have enough of an effect on balance to warrant attention.

You said that balance does not equal the numbers of skills when in reality it does. Stamina suffers in build variety because it does not have as many options as magicka. Therefore stamina vs magicka options are unbalanced.

You don't think that the overall balance of build variety has any effect on the overall balance of power between resources?

Not in the way you clearly think it does. Let me point you in the direction of TSW. In case you don't know, absolutely everybody has access to every skill and every weapon has an equal number of skills. You think they don't have balance problems? Think again.

Weapon damage, skill damage, type and quality of buffs, healing quantities, total DOT damage v.s. DOT duration, mitigation levels, CC type and duration, cast time, damage type, resistance penetration, synergies both with skills and equipment, trigger effects, threat management, the list goes on and on. Number of skills per resource is the least important after a certain threshold, which ESO is well beyond.

Lastly that analogy is pretty poor. It should be who is getting more overall nutrition? The magicka user with access to 5 carrots and 1 steak or the stamina user with access to only 1 carrot?

Believe it or not, stamina does in fact have more skills than just Wrecking Blow.

Nutronic

@Glurin
It's pretty apparent that they just want you to concede to the idea that a few abilities in addition to passives, and other class changes is a good idea.

@exiledtyrant , @Varicite
All Glurin is saying is that that you should consider making the class overall more melee DPS friendly and worry less about having actives you can spam on your bar.

You both are right. There does/will be more stamina/weapon damage scaling morphs. However the class will always remain magical at it's core, none of us would be here if we didn't find that appealing. As was pointed out before, 'sorcerer' is a very flexible mage archetype within TES. It's kinda obvious they choose it for a reason when thinking of the play your way. However, sitting here arguing over semantics (which I readily admit to doing as well, albeit mostly for fun :P) doesn't actually provide a way to improve anything.

Glurin suggested using Encase or it's moprhs, but not one else has really bothered to talk about it. Passives like disintegrate come into play for all damage dealing sorcs so you really can't address the issues associated with the more lack luster spells until you talk about the passives... which honestly I think is off topic (which is why I didn't respond to you Glurin) considering @Jar_Ek made a whole topic aimed at balancing the class which people posted on, agree on, then came right back here to argue. That being said, passives and overall class balance are just a larger piece of the puzzle, you still have to isolate and decide which abilities individually by themselves work independent of class passives.

Another thing to point out is that stamina builds do rely on magicka spells. DKs have GDB, NB have Cloak, Templars have... everything. Just because you see a ton of spells that require magicka to cast, does not mean they don't have a utility purpose that Stamina builds have to ignore. 2H rally is currently better than surge, but only because of the CD. Personally, I don't like having to rely on my stamina bar to heal myself, I'd rather use my magicka bar. Heck, I've seen some DPSers use Entrophy, so it's not a Zero Sum game.

Seriously, if you guys just want to argue, have at it, but don't pretend you're actually getting anywhere. Either find a common ground and work towards something to suggest on the general forums, or ... well whatever.

jelliedsoup

i have no magicka nerfs on my weapons?

what do you mean you have no ice, do i have to drink this coffee when it's hot?

Mayrael

Umm just to point something... Stamina is an utility by it self. Dodge rolls, cc breaks, block, interupt, sneak, sprint. This all is based on stamina and trust me none of full magica users, especially sorc which have to have the highest posble magica and cost reduction because of high costs of skills, can cc break more than two times or roll dodge more than four times in a row. Sure stamina users cannot use magica utilities endlesly but the difference is that cc breaks, dodge rolls and blocking are critical in pvp, magica utilities are optional. So you all want to have more and more stamina utilities, more choice, while magica clases are robed of thier versatility and left with just one viable path. Im against morphs based on stamina in sorcs skill lines, but im not against more synergy between class skills and stamina. As someone said, it wouldnt afect any way magica users and would help more than another damage skill to stamina users.

Glurin

Nutronic wrote: »

@Glurin
It's pretty apparent that they just want you to concede to the idea that a few abilities in addition to passives, and other class changes is a good idea.

Ain't gonna happen as long as they insist that the only conceivable change is a full conversion to stamina for any given ability or it's morphs.

You wanna add a stamina buff to a passive? Fine. You wanna reduce the cost of a non-spammable ability? Fine. You wanna adjust the mechanics of a skill so it's more friendly to stamina builds without changing it's core identity? Also fine. You wanna just convert a skill so it's all stamina based? That one isn't going to fly.

Drago Belsazar

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Maybe I can help.

Sorcerers using Magic -> Magicka is the Ressource for Magic -> Sorcerers(independently of his armor) are Archetype for Magicka and have the greatest magical potential. (Lore)
A Sorcerer can casts in Heavy Armor aswell. A Sorcerer can wield Weapons in melee aswell, while his focus is using Magic. Magical Swords scaling with Magicka would of course nice.

There is already enough trouble with wards being made stronger than actual health while also allowing a decent offensive spike from stacking magicka. You do not want to add weapon scaling into the mix. The skills need to be stamina so that they scale off of weapon power, weapon crit and weapon penetration. Whether or not the damage type is physical or magical is not such a big deal due to cp being flexible enough to add onto either type and in fact within the same melee mage constellation.

Well as Magicka-Sorcerer-Tank there is no one who could understand better your complaints. The fact Life and Heavy Armor is to weak for Sorcerer is something I talk about weekly. But you are not right. Overpowered Wards(Yes they are to hard) have nothing to do if there where a Magical Sword that would scale with Magicka, because I don't think a Sword would have a longer Range than 5m. All those Teleport-Ward-Stackers would never use such a Magical Sword because they couldnt use Animation Canceling anymore - 90% of the Time they are out of Range of 5m. It's only me losing a whole weapon line of skills.

Drago Belsazar

CP5 wrote: »

byrom, you make good points but then seem to have a way of forcing them to support your ideas. Yes, the sorcerer in eso is not tied heavily to the ones in the past, classes in eso are tool kits, nothing more. The fact is in eso all class tool kits are supposed to support all play-styles in a unique way, and the fact that most sorcerer's in game use a similar light armor/staff combo says that the tool kit is not balanced properly for this games design as it fails to support all play-styles evenly.

/sign

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO The thing is that class skills always used to support stamina builds far better than now because of the soft caps. It meant that you could not effectively stack one resource to gain additional damage / effectiveness. Which in turn meant that everyone was, to some extent, a hybrid. However, with 1.6 changes, the baseline meta changed and made hybrids uncompetitive as they lacked the high stats and hence high damage. This was not a problem for magicka sorcerer builds because they stack magicka and use magicka weapons and class abilities - thus using a single stat. Unfortunately all stamina builds got hit with the option of going hybrid to be able to even use their class skills due to the costs (and the loss of a key passive to a vocal magicka lobby) - and be weak at them and at stamina skills, or go stamina and essentially give up on trying to use class skills... especially damaging ones due to the scaling.

Now zos stated they had noted the oversight with regards to the viability of stamina builds and alternative role builds... and that they would look at it. However their lack of response on the forums is neither a dismissive attitude or an endorsement, it is just the way that they are... generally silent.

Oh and for the record, I think most stamina sorcerers would probably be really happy with 3 morph, or world passive, or alternative passive solutions - but if zos are going to change something, better they change the less useful morphs.

So on that note I have a request for zos, assuming that they are going to add stamina morphs.

Consider reducing non attack (utility) magicka costs before considering converting them to stamina .
Consider providing one or two damaging stamina abilities at most.
Consider making pets scale off either stat.

Yes, I have repeatedly stated that the resource = power needs to be done away with.

I also note above that we have stamina fans complaining about how they get so few class skills with stamina compared to magicka - utterly ignoring the fact there are a bunch of stamina skills in each weapon line and elsewhere - which is of course exactly where Zenimax originally intended hybridisation to come from - mixing and matching class and non-class skills.

Someone here even called for equal numbers and was patronising enough to post the dictionary definition of balance. it seems that a general presumption of stupidity is how one or two of them wish to approach those of us who don't want Sorc. hybridisation...

byrom101b16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No you didn't.

But then cramming whatever distortion of what has been said that best serves your agenda 'between the lines' of any post which disagrees with your 'one true way' is pretty much your modus operandi.

You do love your labels.

TES lore has had Mages as a guild and significantly subscribed-to playstyle as a central game element far more than the almost unnoticeable 'Sorcerer', and has in any case been a classless IP for most of it's history.

I know you don't like the fact so many players play their Sorcerers as Mages - and that before 1.6 and after 1.6 they were designed as Mages - it really seems to irritate you in fact!

I know you'd dearly love to convince those not paying enough attention to the facts that Zenimax 'always intended' to have stamina hybridisation for the class, even though they were the one class untouched by such revision post 1.6. Read my post again if you didn't follow on the first reading the ease with which I shot that revisionist propaganda down.

If Zenimax had called Sorcerers Mages instead, I wonder if the ridiculous counterpoint in this thread wouldn't have happened? It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how people play the class though.

In the end - you may well, and on the balance of it, it looks likely that you'll get what you want to some extent or other. The only thing that might derail your expectations is if Zenimax become aware of the comparative numbers of stamina hybridisation supporters to magicka supporters and it turns out to be significantly imbalanced against your point of view.

With the train more or less on the tracks you desire for the moment, better not to risk a sudden points change eh? But U-turns are not something Zenimax are strangers to - so I'd confidently predict that you are counting the days with your fingers crossed.

And it's quite a lot of days isn't it!? Plenty of time for the counter-argument to get it's point across.

There was a short period in which you characterised me as a 'the lone voice in the wilderness' on this issue. In fact it was really very important for you to do that wasn't it?

Now other players have woken up to the stamina agenda and are saying that they don't like it either - you can't use that label anymore now can you...

So you come up with "terrified"?

That's pretty comical.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I think the best fix to this whole thing is to just have all base class powers Magic as they are and let you pick if the power stay magic or go stamina but all class powers have the one morph EVERYONE uses making the trash one stamina is not much different.

Play any style with any class, weapon and armor means you shouldn't have to be a mage to use class powers choosing stamina based powers should be a thing just my opinion.

exiledtyrant

Glurin wrote: »

You said that balance does not equal the numbers of skills when in reality it does. Stamina suffers in build variety because it does not have as many options as magicka. Therefore stamina vs magicka options are unbalanced.

You don't think that the overall balance of build variety has any effect on the overall balance of power between resources?

Not in the way you clearly think it does. Let me point you in the direction of TSW. In case you don't know, absolutely everybody has access to every skill and every weapon has an equal number of skills. You think they don't have balance problems? Think again.

Weapon damage, skill damage, type and quality of buffs, healing quantities, total DOT damage v.s. DOT duration, mitigation levels, CC type and duration, cast time, damage type, resistance penetration, synergies both with skills and equipment, trigger effects, threat management, the list goes on and on. Number of skills per resource is the least important after a certain threshold, which ESO is well beyond.

The Secret World had issues with the balance of power among builds not build diversity. Mainly because they had so many skills and passives it was hard to nail down the exact power levels each introduced. The most you can hope for in a system like that is that each section of skill types is clearly defined and within a certain power curve. From my experience playing from launch to a little over a year it did accomplish this. The skill sets were defined and there was a fairly even power curve among them. FOTM builds did crop up but did not exclude other builds. I would say their job of balancing was far easier because they gave everyone equal opportunity to all build choices. They only had to worry about the balance of power. Not build disparity or separate resource mechanics, and the balance of power.

I don't believe that is feasible for ESO from a business stand point to tackle overall power balance. They just moved out a major content patch and are getting ready for console release. They have several DLC and crown marketing projects they need to get in order not mention the introduction of new systems. I think it's a miracle that they even considered to go back one more time for stamina morphs because the sorcerer current ones under perform. Right now there is the chance to help wedge the gap between resource build diversity. The overall balance of power is a much larger project that has almost nothing to do with morphs, but can be easier to balance when more choices aren't gated. It is easier to focus on the balance of power once people have equal options, or in the case of 2-4 more stamina morphs slightly more equal.

Nutronic wrote: »

Glurin suggested using Encase or it's moprhs, but not one else has really bothered to talk about it. Passives like disintegrate come into play for all damage dealing sorcs so you really can't address the issues associated with the more lack luster spells until you talk about the passives... which honestly I think is off topic (which is why I didn't respond to you Glurin) considering @Jar_Ek made a whole topic aimed at balancing the class which people posted on, agree on, then came right back here to argue. That being said, passives and overall class balance are just a larger piece of the puzzle, you still have to isolate and decide which abilities individually by themselves work independent of class passives.

Another thing to point out is that stamina builds do rely on magicka spells. DKs have GDB, NB have Cloak, Templars have... everything. Just because you see a ton of spells that require magicka to cast, does not mean they don't have a utility purpose that Stamina builds have to ignore. 2H rally is currently better than surge, but only because of the CD. Personally, I don't like having to rely on my stamina bar to heal myself, I'd rather use my magicka bar. Heck, I've seen some DPSers use Entrophy, so it's not a Zero Sum game.

Encase wasn't touched upon because leaving the skill as magicka does nothing but make it easier for magicka users to use. Even if it hit more reliably and was given melee synergy it would still cost to much magicka. Therefore it would have to be reduced to entropy levels of cost to be useable by a stamina user. This would make it useable for melee and even easier to abuse for magicka users who could spam encase even more. A stamina sorcerer already has surge and lightning form competing for it's magicka slots and small pool. Dark deal is another contender if it is changed. The room for magicka slots is filled up. Stamina sorcerers need class skills they can pull from their dominant resource.

Secondly the new scaling mechanics as well as the CP system encourage specializing in one resource and it's secondary stats. For all intents and purposes you are encouraged to ignore skills that don't scale with your resource when you have the option. There are a few outliers because stamina skills are simply not given the options magicka utility is. Lastly rally is not stronger than surge just because of it's CD. Rally is stronger than surge because it cost less due to stacking cost reduction for one resource, it regenerates faster because of stacking regen for one resource, it scales off one resource and it's secondary stats, and it it tied to the strongest stamina skill line in the game.

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Maybe I can help.

Sorcerers using Magic -> Magicka is the Ressource for Magic -> Sorcerers(independently of his armor) are Archetype for Magicka and have the greatest magical potential. (Lore)
A Sorcerer can casts in Heavy Armor aswell. A Sorcerer can wield Weapons in melee aswell, while his focus is using Magic. Magical Swords scaling with Magicka would of course nice.

There is already enough trouble with wards being made stronger than actual health while also allowing a decent offensive spike from stacking magicka. You do not want to add weapon scaling into the mix. The skills need to be stamina so that they scale off of weapon power, weapon crit and weapon penetration. Whether or not the damage type is physical or magical is not such a big deal due to cp being flexible enough to add onto either type and in fact within the same melee mage constellation.

Well as Magicka-Sorcerer-Tank there is no one who could understand better your complaints. The fact Life and Heavy Armor is to weak for Sorcerer is something I talk about weekly. But you are not right. Overpowered Wards(Yes they are to hard) have nothing to do if there where a Magical Sword that would scale with Magicka, because I don't think a Sword would have a longer Range than 5m. All those Teleport-Ward-Stackers would never use such a Magical Sword because they couldnt use Animation Canceling anymore - 90% of the Time they are out of Range of 5m. It's only me losing a whole weapon line of skills.

How does a sword scaling with magicka not directly correlate with wards that scale with magicka? You can't separate the two especially when dealing with sorcerers.

I explained why magicka scaling weapon skills is a bad idea before so I'm not going to do it again. Give me an answer to post # 81 of this thread:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1691152/#Comment_1691152

I'm not going to repost because it is rather long. I'll need to see an actual skill, passive, or both that does not imbalance the current gameplay mechanics. It's going to have to be more descriptive than a 5m magical sword as well.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO The thing is that class skills always used to support stamina builds far better than now because of the soft caps. It meant that you could not effectively stack one resource to gain additional damage / effectiveness. Which in turn meant that everyone was, to some extent, a hybrid. However, with 1.6 changes, the baseline meta changed and made hybrids uncompetitive as they lacked the high stats and hence high damage. This was not a problem for magicka sorcerer builds because they stack magicka and use magicka weapons and class abilities - thus using a single stat. Unfortunately all stamina builds got hit with the option of going hybrid to be able to even use their class skills due to the costs (and the loss of a key passive to a vocal magicka lobby) - and be weak at them and at stamina skills, or go stamina and essentially give up on trying to use class skills... especially damaging ones due to the scaling.

Now zos stated they had noted the oversight with regards to the viability of stamina builds and alternative role builds... and that they would look at it. However their lack of response on the forums is neither a dismissive attitude or an endorsement, it is just the way that they are... generally silent.

Oh and for the record, I think most stamina sorcerers would probably be really happy with 3 morph, or world passive, or alternative passive solutions - but if zos are going to change something, better they change the less useful morphs.

So on that note I have a request for zos, assuming that they are going to add stamina morphs.

Consider reducing non attack (utility) magicka costs before considering converting them to stamina .
Consider providing one or two damaging stamina abilities at most.
Consider making pets scale off either stat.

Yes, I have repeatedly stated that the resource = power needs to be done away with.

I also note above that we have stamina fans complaining about how they get so few class skills with stamina compared to magicka - utterly ignoring the fact there are a bunch of stamina skills in each weapon line and elsewhere - which is of course exactly where Zenimax originally intended hybridisation to come from - mixing and matching class and non-class skills.

Someone here even called for equal numbers and was patronising enough to post the dictionary definition of balance. it seems that a general presumption of stupidity is how one or two of them wish to approach those of us who don't want Sorc. hybridisation...

Yet you ignore that there are more overall magicka class skills than the whole of all stamina skills available. Almost double the magicka skills available than stamina skills in total. Hybridization is also no longer intended. Pure builds are now what is encouraged. It is obvious why because true hybridization is a nightmare to balance. SWTOR recently went over a major class overhaul because of it. These are suggestions from the standpoint of pure resource build diversity not hybridization.

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No you didn't.

But then cramming whatever distortion of what has been said that best serves your agenda 'between the lines' of any post which disagrees with your 'one true way' is pretty much your modus operandi.

You do love your labels.

TES lore has had Mages as a guild and significantly subscribed-to playstyle as a central game element far more than the almost unnoticeable 'Sorcerer', and has in any case been a classless IP for most of it's history.

I know you don't like the fact so many players play their Sorcerers as Mages - and that before 1.6 and after 1.6 they were designed as Mages - it really seems to irritate you in fact!

I know you'd dearly love to convince those not paying enough attention to the facts that Zenimax 'always intended' to have stamina hybridisation for the class, even though they were the one class untouched by such revision post 1.6. Read my post again if you didn't follow on the first reading the ease with which I shot that revisionist propaganda down.

If Zenimax had called Sorcerers Mages instead, I wonder if the ridiculous counterpoint in this thread wouldn't have happened? It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how people play the class though.

In the end - you may well, and on the balance of it, it looks likely that you'll get what you want to some extent or other. The only thing that might derail your expectations is if Zenimax become aware of the comparative numbers of stamina hybridisation supporters to magicka supporters and it turns out to be significantly imbalanced against your point of view.

With the train more or less on the tracks you desire for the moment, better not to risk a sudden points change eh? But U-turns are not something Zenimax are strangers to - so I'd confidently predict that you are counting the days with your fingers crossed.

And it's quite a lot of days isn't it!? Plenty of time for the counter-argument to get it's point across.

There was a short period in which you characterised me as a 'the lone voice in the wilderness' on this issue. In fact it was really very important for you to do that wasn't it?

Now other players have woken up to the stamina agenda and are saying that they don't like it either - you can't use that label anymore now can you...

So you come up with "terrified"?

That's pretty comical.

There are so many things wrong with this post. You did clearly state that outside TES lore is more important than inside TES lore because the inside TES lore hasn't had a Sorc like that in recent games (ignoring the fact that your vision of Sorc hasn't been reinforced since those early TES games either).

You continue to use the term stamina hybridisation (sic) for some reason. I want a full stamina build, using magicka skills as utility/buffs just the same as a full magicka build uses stamina for defense/CC breaks.

The name Sorcerer means nothing when it comes to what the class deserves. What does mean something is that this is an MMO with only four classes and it is wrong for ZOS to make one class non-stamina compliant one year into the game's life. I know I've explained myself before, but Stamina Sorc was a much stronger DPS than a Magicka Sorc. I am aware your counter argument would be that well more people play magicka, but if you want to base decisions based on herd mentality you're gonna have a bad time.

I do think by far that most Sorcs are magicka builds currently. I am magicka and have been magicka since even before 1.6 because it was better for PVP. I think you are the lone voice in the wilderness when it comes to writing 1000 word essays repeatedly on why you against losing one or two magicka morphs. Now Glurin has joined you in your valiant crusade.

The bottom line is Stamina Sorc was a valid and actually stronger (PVE DPS) option pre 1.6, and they nerfed Stam Sorc heavily with 1.6 while buffing other classes stam options by giving them valid stamina morphs. If you can't see the wrong in that, well I can't help you. Keep arguing though, because otherwise this topic would die.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."

exiledtyrant wrote: »

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

/shrug

The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.

No, the laughable disparity in the number of available skills is how he illustrated that the Sorc issue is actually part of a larger overall problem.

What you're doing is detracting from the issue at hand, which is the lack of viable stamina morphs for Sorcerer.

And you feel that your opinion needs to be stated SO MUCH that you can't even let others even DISCUSS fixes to the issue in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that.

Cathexis

Whether or not there is a flat stamina morph of more skills, stam sorcs at the very least need equitable mobility and defensive spels to magika builds. At minimum.

The class basically hinges on teleport and hardened ward.

I just made the hard switch to stamina and mobility is severely gimped.

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."

exiledtyrant wrote: »

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

/shrug

The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.

No, the laughable disparity in the number of available skills is how he illustrated that the Sorc issue is actually part of a larger overall problem.

What you're doing is detracting from the issue at hand, which is the lack of viable stamina morphs for Sorcerer.

And you feel that your opinion needs to be stated SO MUCH that you can't even let others even DISCUSS fixes to the issue in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that.

His justification, which you apparently agree with, is that magicka has more skills than stamina. You want more stamina skills, therefore you think the best solution is to take them from magicka. You've misidentified the problem, which means you've got an incorrect solution. Worse, you won't even acknowledge the side effects that your solution would cause.

And how dare you lecture me about respecting the opinions of others? You're so short sighted and tunnel visioned on this issue that you can't even understand why someone might think differently, so the first thing you resort to is mockery and ridicule when someone disagrees with you. And you are far from the only one in this thread with that particular problem.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant: "The problem is there are 124 magicka class skills including morphs to 11 stamina class skills. There are 204 magicka skills in total including morphs to 117 in stamina skills in total."

exiledtyrant wrote: »

However balance between the number of skills isn't even be asked in this this thread it's for the very small concession to be made for a handful of skills to help out with the overall skill disparity.

Stop cherrypicking pieces from a post to suit your argument; he clearly goes on further to explain that nobody is asking for an equal number of skills or any of this other silly hyperbole that you keep posting that has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

A small concession is exactly what's being asked for, no more, no less. Exaggerating the issue does absolutely nothing for your credibility.

/shrug

The number of skills is how he justified his opinion. I am well within my rights to question his justification.

No, the laughable disparity in the number of available skills is how he illustrated that the Sorc issue is actually part of a larger overall problem.

What you're doing is detracting from the issue at hand, which is the lack of viable stamina morphs for Sorcerer.

And you feel that your opinion needs to be stated SO MUCH that you can't even let others even DISCUSS fixes to the issue in a thread dedicated to doing exactly that.

His justification, which you apparently agree with, is that magicka has more skills than stamina. You want more stamina skills, therefore you think the best solution is to take them from magicka. You've misidentified the problem, which means you've got an incorrect solution. Worse, you won't even acknowledge the side effects that your solution would cause.

And how dare you lecture me about respecting the opinions of others? You're so short sighted and tunnel visioned on this issue that you can't even understand why someone might think differently, so the first thing you resort to is mockery and ridicule when someone disagrees with you. And you are far from the only one in this thread with that particular problem.

You keep calling it "my solution".

You may want to check your facts, I'm not the one who decided to make stamina morphs this way.

If you disagree w/ the way that it's currently being handled, make your OWN thread and ask ZOS to do it differently. It's their solution.

I'm not here to argue about why they handled it the way that they did, I'm here to talk about balance for Sorcerer builds w/in the framework of the game we are currently playing.

And in this game, ZOS decided that the best solution for bridging the disparity gap was to allow some class skills to be morphed into stamina.

My opinion is that while this was a workable solution that made stamina builds much more relevant post-1.6, Sorcerer stamina DPS is still a bit behind the curve and needs more attention.

Available Sorc skills and passives do not synergize well w/ stamina dps weapons, Sorcs lack stamina management almost altogether, there are zero damaging stamina abilities in the Sorc skill lines, there is a total of ONE desirable buff / debuff amongs Sorc skills (Bound Armaments), etc.

All of this culminates in a class who, if desiring to be a stamina-based DPS role, is pigeon-holed into barely taking ANY class skills at all in an attempt to excel, and even then falls short of the mark due to being bound basically to the very limited pool of stamina-based generic abilities.

Glurin

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No you didn't.

But then cramming whatever distortion of what has been said that best serves your agenda 'between the lines' of any post which disagrees with your 'one true way' is pretty much your modus operandi.

You do love your labels.

TES lore has had Mages as a guild and significantly subscribed-to playstyle as a central game element far more than the almost unnoticeable 'Sorcerer', and has in any case been a classless IP for most of it's history.

I know you don't like the fact so many players play their Sorcerers as Mages - and that before 1.6 and after 1.6 they were designed as Mages - it really seems to irritate you in fact!

I know you'd dearly love to convince those not paying enough attention to the facts that Zenimax 'always intended' to have stamina hybridisation for the class, even though they were the one class untouched by such revision post 1.6. Read my post again if you didn't follow on the first reading the ease with which I shot that revisionist propaganda down.

If Zenimax had called Sorcerers Mages instead, I wonder if the ridiculous counterpoint in this thread wouldn't have happened? It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to how people play the class though.

In the end - you may well, and on the balance of it, it looks likely that you'll get what you want to some extent or other. The only thing that might derail your expectations is if Zenimax become aware of the comparative numbers of stamina hybridisation supporters to magicka supporters and it turns out to be significantly imbalanced against your point of view.

With the train more or less on the tracks you desire for the moment, better not to risk a sudden points change eh? But U-turns are not something Zenimax are strangers to - so I'd confidently predict that you are counting the days with your fingers crossed.

And it's quite a lot of days isn't it!? Plenty of time for the counter-argument to get it's point across.

There was a short period in which you characterised me as a 'the lone voice in the wilderness' on this issue. In fact it was really very important for you to do that wasn't it?

Now other players have woken up to the stamina agenda and are saying that they don't like it either - you can't use that label anymore now can you...

So you come up with "terrified"?

That's pretty comical.

You continue to use the term stamina hybridisation (sic) for some reason. I want a full stamina build, using magicka skills as utility/buffs just the same as a full magicka build uses stamina for defense/CC breaks.

Which stamina conversion does not provide.

Erock25 wrote: »

The name Sorcerer means nothing when it comes to what the class deserves. What does mean something is that this is an MMO with only four classes and it is wrong for ZOS to make one class non-stamina compliant one year into the game's life.

The name "Sorcerer" is a metaphorical lighthouse guiding what the class is and what defines it as a whole. It defines how the class functions and how it finds it's place within the lore.

Erock25 wrote: »

I know I've explained myself before, but Stamina Sorc was a much stronger DPS than a Magicka Sorc. I am aware your counter argument would be that well more people play magicka, but if you want to base decisions based on herd mentality you're gonna have a bad time.

Was stronger. It's not anymore. Is that what you're really so pissed about? Because if it is, then you're not in any condition to discuss any kind of changes.

If you're just unhappy that stamina sorcerers aren't able to do enough damage to even compare with magicka sorcerers, well, that's different.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.