What Sorcerer Players REALLY Need...

byrom101b16_ESO

OK - no personal bias in this thread, just a call for fair representation and a serious attitude to fixing the class from Zenimax;

Currently there are varying calls for the following;

• Fixing buggy and trial-useless pets and their mechanics
• Reducing or eliminating the prevalence of toggle skills
• Reducing the unparalleled spike damage potential of PvP Sorcs.
• Increasing the low sustained dps of Sorcerers relative to other classes
• Replacing useless or redundant magicka skills with better ones
• Increasing synergy, which is poor as the class currently stands
• Giving the class back it's utility, which was nerfed in PvE due largely to PvP complaints
• Reducing reliance on non-class abilities, which are often considerably more superior
• Replacing useless Sorcerer skill morphs with better magicka morphs
• Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs
• Making Sorcerer main-healing viable at all
  
• Making Sorcerer tanking more viable
• Making non-staff Sorcerers more viable
• Removing cooldown on Surge random damage proc self-heal and replacing with more reliable mechanic
  
  Everyone has an angle on this, and indeed, no Sorcerer player I know doesn't share one or more of these desires.
  
  But Zenimax are only telling us they tackle healing, and stamina hybridisation.
  
  It is clear this is not going to solve the vast majority of issues with the class, and may in fact make matters worse... mainly due to making targeted changes to one aspect of class gameplay without properly thinking about, or testing the ramifications.
  
  One only has to look at the changes to Negate Magic to see that listening to one group and ignoring others leads to unwanted and/or undesirable change and imbalance.
  
  These forums are not the place to test the water on what Sorcerer players want - it is populated in far greater proportions than the general game population, by, for want of a better word or two, 'lobbyists' and 'trolls'.
  
  So what do Sorcerer players really want?
  
  Asking what they REALLY WANT!!
  
  So Zenimax - do a POLL away from these forums, do it through the game portal if you must... and have it ask in as unbias a way as possible, what Sorcerer players think about the above issues (+ the one's I've missed..)... get a CLEAR view of what is desired and act on that.
  

CP5

This about sums it up. @ZOS_GinaBruno, any word yet from Eric's team as to sorcerer changes? I recall a post made back in February saying that he was looking it over but didn't have a chance to post a write up and was wondering if they were intending on reviewing feedback for so long without providing some word as to what they were doing, if anything at all.

jelliedsoup

More dps and tanking and I'd give up pvp altogether.

Emma_Overload

There are some good ideas in the OP, but I don't even want to talk about anything else until the horrible, class-breaking COOLDOWN on Surge heals is completely removed!

eliisra

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Fixing buggy and trial-useless pets and their mechanics

This so much. I really tried to make the pet thing work in 1.6.5 on my sorc. I didn't like the idea to begin with, but gave it a go for nice dps. Guess what, the pet still bugs out half the time and just stands there, it still dies in a few seconds. Re-summoning and trying to command the stupid thing, is truly a dps loss lol. There's about 10 boss fights in my head right now, where I know a pet cant be used at all. That was also the "top dps" build ZoS presented proudly for sorcerer prior to 1.6 launch. But it doesn't work half the time.

I actually feel that sorcerers (PvE-wise), is in a even worse spot now than back in 1.5. At least than you needed one or two for Negate, while they also functioned as decent resto healers with Surge.

A lot of it is due to stamina based meta for dps obviously. Doesn't matter that sorcerer does relatively decent magicka dps compared to other classes, not when all magicka builds under-perform. Sorcerer also has little synergy with stamina builds and no good class morphs for it. Also least class potential to fill the role as healer or tank.

CP5

@eliisra, but remember, their internal testing proved that pet dps was way to op and had to be nerfed before going onto pts.

Would honestly love to see what kind of numbers the devs were getting to make this happen, keeping in mind all the problems pets have.

Cody

pretty much all of this.

LameoveR

fix me sorc plz

WrathOfRegicide

The problem I see with sorcerer is there is no viable stamina option within sorcerer skills and morphs, also lack of damaging aoe abilities.There are just too many lackluster skills a sorcerer has, like daedric summons which are buggy and near useless, their AI will probably never work, too many games have tried a "pet" system and can't seem to get it right; such as GW2 ranger pets are still as buggy and useless to this day. Sorcerers dark magic tree is just very boring and unimaginative, like rune prison and daedric mines, I rarely see anyone use those skills in pvp or pve. Dark exchange isn't a reliable healing skill. As for bolt escape i wouldn't mind if that skill was taken out completely and switched with a legitimate healing skill, I personally think its a cheap "skill" and people no matter what will spam the skill to get away from a losing fight.

byrom101b16_ESO

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

There are some good ideas in the OP, but I don't even want to talk about anything else until the horrible, class-breaking COOLDOWN on Surge heals is completely removed!

Point taken - although I do think an improvement here would likely lead to a reduction in shield effectiveness.

I've added it to the list.

Septimus_Magna

@byrom101b16_ESO
I think sorc pve dps is just fine, I get around 12-13k single target dps without spell power pots and I have no sustain problems if someone uses Elemental Drain and/or Siphon Spirit. But I understand some builds have trouble getting high dps numbers.

I do agree that sorcs have too much burst damage, curse should be a DOT which ticks for more damage the longer it lasts imo. Players could counter this with purge in pvp to decrease te burst damage. Every magicka build is using purge anyways due to the insane siege damage atm.

Edit: Power/Critical Surge should have no cooldown, no other skills have internal cooldowns to my knowledge so its unfair and it makes the healing effect worthless. If the healing effect is too strong they should change the crit% so more crits=more healing, and not harder hits=more healing.

byrom101b16_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO
I think sorc pve dps is just fine, I get around 12-13k single target dps without spell power pots and I have no sustain problems if someone uses Elemental Drain and/or Siphon Spirit. But I understand some builds have trouble getting high dps numbers.

I do agree that sorcs have too much burst damage, curse should be a DOT which ticks for more damage the longer it lasts imo. Players could counter this with purge in pvp to decrease te burst damage. Every magicka build is using purge anyways due to the insane siege damage atm.

12-13K puts the likes of DKs a good 4-5K ahead of you on dps with better armour, spell resistance, self heals, group utility and skill synergy. The same is true of the other classes on a case by case basis if they go with stamina as their damage delivery resource.

A 20% boost would put Sorcerer back into the competition and a likewise reduction on spike damage would remove the only significant objection anyone has raised to greater Sorcerer dps.

Less spike damage on Crystal Frags and making something like Daedric Curse into a decent single target DoT would be a simple way to acheive it.

In any case - this thread is primarily about the need for survey to get a representative look at the concerns of the class as a whole.

I'll try to resist the temptation to get involved in counterpoint as in the complete list of Sorcerer concerns, the likelihood is that we will all agree with some and disagree with others.

But as a group, we do need to be heard, and the majority-supported concerns should be sensibly addressed.

I would hope we can all agree about that...

Jar_Ek

@byrom101b16_ESO You missed the following:

Number of skills slots required for toggle skills and number of toggle skills.
Passives that have limited applicability (such as pet passives - which only effect 1/2 of the abilities in 1 line).
Lack of effective playstyle options (esp. with respect to passives)

Otherwise a pretty comprehensive list without significant bias. Let's hope zos look at the whole class and do not use a poorly thought out bandaid fix that helps some builds and destroys others.

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO You missed the following:

Number of skills slots required for toggle skills and number of toggle skills.
Passives that have limited applicability (such as pet passives - which only effect 1/2 of the abilities in 1 line).
Lack of effective playstyle options (esp. with respect to passives)

Otherwise a pretty comprehensive list without significant bias. Let's hope zos look at the whole class and do not use a poorly thought out bandaid fix that helps some builds and destroys others.

OK.

I think the passive issue is true of most classes to some degree, and not unique to Sorcs. Fix the skills they relate too and some of these would be resolved in any case.

Lack of effective playstyle options is the consequence of there being so many unresolved root causes and would become better as each was dealt with in a comprehensive review.

Toggle skills definately needs to be added to the list as a discrete and important issue - so I'll put it in.

LameoveR

Boost here, boost there...
Here is sorc tank
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1721171/#Comment_1721171
Here is sorc soloing AA Atronach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Septimus_Magna

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO
I think sorc pve dps is just fine, I get around 12-13k single target dps without spell power pots and I have no sustain problems if someone uses Elemental Drain and/or Siphon Spirit. But I understand some builds have trouble getting high dps numbers.

I do agree that sorcs have too much burst damage, curse should be a DOT which ticks for more damage the longer it lasts imo. Players could counter this with purge in pvp to decrease te burst damage. Every magicka build is using purge anyways due to the insane siege damage atm.

12-13K puts the likes of DKs a good 4-5K ahead of you on dps with better armour, spell resistance, self heals, group utility and skill synergy. The same is true of the other classes on a case by case basis if they go with stamina as their damage delivery resource.

A 20% boost would put Sorcerer back into the competition and a likewise reduction on spike damage would remove the only significant objection anyone has raised to greater Sorcerer dps.

Less spike damage on Crystal Frags and making something like Daedric Curse into a decent single target DoT would be a simple way to acheive it.

In any case - this thread is primarily about the need for survey to get a representative look at the concerns of the class as a whole.

I'll try to resist the temptation to get involved in counterpoint as in the complete list of Sorcerer concerns, the likelihood is that we will all agree with some and disagree with others.

But as a group, we do need to be heard, and the majority-supported concerns should be sensibly addressed.

I would hope we can all agree about that...

Well Im not the best sorc around so its not really fair to compare my dps with the best DKs around. Its true DKs do the highest dps but higher than 16k single target dps is very rare in my experience. Defense wise I dont think sorcs are weak, I can cast a 13k shield with a relative cheap skill, that gives me enough survivability for most situations. I do agree sorcs have a major lack in group utility, there're hardly any skills which benefit the entire group. Only liquid lightning for the synergy and negate which cant be casted often because its an ultimate. It would be nice to have something to boost the offense/defense of the entire group.

Nutronic

LameoveR wrote: »

Boost here, boost there...
Here is sorc tank
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1721171/#Comment_1721171
Here is sorc soloing AA Atronach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

I tank sorc too, and I almost did this EXACT SAME THING when my learning to play trial group all died and I was the only one left. I just failed at the last 10% b/c I accidentally teleported to the wrong spot and missed the light

More so though, I think they just need to change the pet toggles to always on, and the actual skills to toggling the pet's special ability (once on the bar the pet is summoned, if it dies there is a CD until it is summoned again, if you activate the skill the pet will do it's special ability like tail swipe or heal for a stamina/magicka cost), but that's something for another thread.

I strongly though don't agree with more stamina morphs, rather just more useful skills overall or cheaper costs to spells to keep them stamina build viable.

The list you provide Byom while detailed with many legitimate concerns seems to also include a few bias ones that even among sorcerers there isn't an agreement upon. I support the idea of an in-game survey but that seems like an extreme thing for ZOS to do in that it would mean they themselves don't have any idea how or what to fix. Clearly that doesn't seem to be the case since they've only acknowledge that there are problems and while they appreciate suggestions; they claim to be internally testing eventual fixes. I for one feel it's been a long long long- too long a time since they said they were looking into the matter, but we should wait until they start putting out changes before throwing more things onto their plate.

I mean things like (comparatively) low DPS in PVE and the horrid crit surge changes have been complained about on the forums for well over a month, and I'm betting they've even been /bugged in game quite a number of times as well. I think they know, but they aren't doing anything about it until they are sure they like the changes they have in mind. In the mean time, people should continue to gently remind (which this thread totally is, so thanks for being awesome), theorycraft and work with what they have until those changes come out.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

byrom101b16_ESO

@ Septimus and Nutronic

The purpose of the thread isn't for me to promote my personal take on what the Sorcerer needs, it's to list all the various calls made and use this list as a basis for asking for a player survey poll.

I don't personally agree with several of the issues raised by others, but as I said - that's not the point, and in a comprehensive poll, everyone can and should be heard.

The good thing about an effective wide-ranging poll is that it will identify the real causes for concern amongst the majority, and make clear those corner cases which are only supported by a few and of little interest to most.

At the end of the day it's in Zenimax's interest to target the right things and make positive changes that deliver improvement to the majority of playstyles, and thus, players.

It makes sense from all angles really.

byrom101b16_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO
I think sorc pve dps is just fine, I get around 12-13k single target dps without spell power pots and I have no sustain problems if someone uses Elemental Drain and/or Siphon Spirit. But I understand some builds have trouble getting high dps numbers.

I do agree that sorcs have too much burst damage, curse should be a DOT which ticks for more damage the longer it lasts imo. Players could counter this with purge in pvp to decrease te burst damage. Every magicka build is using purge anyways due to the insane siege damage atm.

12-13K puts the likes of DKs a good 4-5K ahead of you on dps with better armour, spell resistance, self heals, group utility and skill synergy. The same is true of the other classes on a case by case basis if they go with stamina as their damage delivery resource.

A 20% boost would put Sorcerer back into the competition and a likewise reduction on spike damage would remove the only significant objection anyone has raised to greater Sorcerer dps.

Less spike damage on Crystal Frags and making something like Daedric Curse into a decent single target DoT would be a simple way to acheive it.

In any case - this thread is primarily about the need for survey to get a representative look at the concerns of the class as a whole.

I'll try to resist the temptation to get involved in counterpoint as in the complete list of Sorcerer concerns, the likelihood is that we will all agree with some and disagree with others.

But as a group, we do need to be heard, and the majority-supported concerns should be sensibly addressed.

I would hope we can all agree about that...

Well Im not the best sorc around so its not really fair to compare my dps with the best DKs around. Its true DKs do the highest dps but higher than 16k single target dps is very rare in my experience. Defense wise I dont think sorcs are weak, I can cast a 13k shield with a relative cheap skill, that gives me enough survivability for most situations. I do agree sorcs have a major lack in group utility, there're hardly any skills which benefit the entire group. Only liquid lightning for the synergy and negate which cant be casted often because its an ultimate. It would be nice to have something to boost the offense/defense of the entire group.

The best Sorcs I know are pulling 13K in mobile fights and ~15K in static ones. The best DKs range from 16K to 20K. I haven't seen anything different from the more average players in terms of relative diffference - Sorc's always come in a good lump lower and with far less to offer in other areas of group and trial play.

Which changes from the list would best acheive that is anyone's guess, albeit most people have preferences.

But that's what the thread is about - an end to sterile theorising about what a handful of people think might be best and instead, tapping the depth and breadth of experience that is available to come up with a sensible list of most needed and required changes.

Nutronic

@byrom101b16_ESO
I can agree to that, but I personally don't think an in-game survey will honestly help much. Main reason being that ZOS seems to have an agenda they haven't put out yet with the sorc, and until they do they probably will only look to the PTS and forums for inspiration rather than direction.

byrom101b16_ESO

Nutronic wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO
I can agree to that, but I personally don't think an in-game survey will honestly help much. Main reason being that ZOS seems to have an agenda they haven't put out yet with the sorc, and until they do they probably will only look to the PTS and forums for inspiration rather than direction.

Well yes, they would have to listen to the Poll after doing it...

... but making assumptions about changes and putting them on the PTS for approval/disapproval without first finding out what changes would be best tested on the PTS in the first place... that's putting the cart before the horse...

I hope you are wrong about the agenda....

Interestingly, they also seem to miss widespread bugs like the horse stop-start-stop and have to be told about them by players, even coming back and asking for screenshots!

That speaks volumes to me about how many of them actually play the game... so if they aren't playing it, then surely the only sensible recourse is to talk in a representative fashion to those who are...

Keep your fingers crossed.

Cogo

***WHAT???***

The Sorcerer class is just fine (within limits). Maybe a bit TOO fine when you see the chenanigans of Teh_Magus.

byrom101b16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

***WHAT???***

The Sorcerer class is just fine (within limits). Maybe a bit TOO fine when you see the chenanigans of Teh_Magus.

If you are right, a decent poll would identify THAT as the truth...

... I assume then you are support of it!?

Nutronic

Well see if they make changes and put them into the game, the data that caused those changes has to come from somewhere. I think we would be remiss to assume that ZOS has no player data collection tools for assessing damage ratios or bugs.

I'm not sure if you saw the last ESO LIVE from Friday but they had one of the QA testers on and he pretty much explains what we're talking about here and how they try to replicate things. Granted those are for bugs, but they have claimed to be playing the game quite often so I can't imagine they don't run into the same problems the players face on a daily basis. In fact I'm inclined to believe they really do play the game as much as they say they do because they obviously must be spending too much time playing and not enough time... well I'm sure you get the point.

I would also like to point out that just because they don't say they have noticed a game breaking/jarring bug without provocation from players doesn't mean they aren't aware of it. To be frank, we have no clue what goes on in the studio and can only go on what they say and what they do. So far they say they are working on things and collecting data. It seems to follow with their track record that they err too much on the side of caution and perfection and test things a lot in isolated environments before pushing them out. Hence why silly things like a 35% heal with no CD which costs free for certain set-ups pop out and can make them very hesitant to push out other buffs without going back to test again.

byrom101b16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

***WHAT???***

The Sorcerer class is just fine (within limits). Maybe a bit TOO fine when you see the chenanigans of Teh_Magus.

If you are right, a decent poll would identify THAT as the truth...

... I assume then you are support of it!?

Nutronic wrote: »

Well see if they make changes and put them into the game, the data that caused those changes has to come from somewhere. I think we would be remiss to assume that ZOS has no player data collection tools for assessing damage ratios or bugs.

I'm not sure if you saw the last ESO LIVE from Friday but they had one of the QA testers on and he pretty much explains what we're talking about here and how they try to replicate things. Granted those are for bugs, but they have claimed to be playing the game quite often so I can't imagine they don't run into the same problems the players face on a daily basis. In fact I'm inclined to believe they really do play the game as much as they say they do because they obviously must be spending too much time playing and not enough time... well I'm sure you get the point.

I would also like to point out that just because they don't say they have noticed a game breaking/jarring bug without provocation from players doesn't mean they aren't aware of it. To be frank, we have no clue what goes on in the studio and can only go on what they say and what they do. So far they say they are working on things and collecting data. It seems to follow with their track record that they err too much on the side of caution and perfection and test things a lot in isolated environments before pushing them out. Hence why silly things like a 35% heal with no CD which costs free for certain set-ups pop out and can make them very hesitant to push out other buffs without going back to test again.

Actually about the horse bug - they did say they didn't know about it, and asked for screenshots well over a week after it started...

So they missed something that was effecting every playyer on a mount every time they moved for more than a handful of seconds.

Still sure they are playing a lot?

Anyway - let's keep our fingers crossed for some improvement, and a poll!

Cogo

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

***WHAT???***

The Sorcerer class is just fine (within limits). Maybe a bit TOO fine when you see the chenanigans of Teh_Magus.

If you are right, a decent poll would identify THAT as the truth...

... I assume then you are support of it!?

A poll will get the truth?
Um....ok. So if enough people say one thing, its true?
Knowledge must be a good way too? Lets share some!

Go ask the good skilled sorcerers for tips. Look around all skills and try stuffs. Player skill takes time. Can't be bought for crowns. Ability to adapt is more OP then any class skill.

Sorcerers don't have good stamina damage?
Sure, sucks going 2H with overload, doesn't it? Might be the biggest damage in game apart from Sieges and Synergies?
I am not trying to be rude, but explaining why maybe tweaking the class isn't the first place to look.

• Fixing buggy and trial-useless pets and their mechanics
  Yes, they are a bit buggy but at least your pet don't insta die. ZoS saying they get a fix. (I don't count bugs)
  
• Reducing or eliminating the prevalence of toggle skills
  So..you want to pay magika for a toggle skill?
  
• Reducing the unparalleled spike damage potential of PvP Sorcs.
  PvP - any class got all kinds of "spike damage". Up to the players and gear, more then class.
  A level 10 with sieges, or even hide/sneak attack does more damage then any "normal" attacks.
  There isn't a problem here. Elaborate?
  
• Increasing the low sustained dps of Sorcerers relative to other classes
  To many examples. Look around the class skills, ultimates and morphs. Combine them with many different sets and abilities (Global). Oh, light and heavy attacks.... And that freakin OP pet!
  
  Your magika attacks scales of your pool of magika, which you by class have a lot of. Theorycrafting sorcerers does more damage with magika attacks then all other 3 classes. In theory....
  
  DPS is might trick you. Sometimes doing less damage but constant is better. Sometimes burst DPS. Or weave in stuns, interupts, heals, buffs or what not. Even light/heavy attacks counts now. Type of damage is important too. Did I mention your pet is OP since you can just re-summon it?
  
  DPS is nice but not the tool to value your damage.
  
• Replacing useless or redundant magicka skills with better ones
  What ability? Non are useless? Explain?
  
• Increasing synergy, which is poor as the class currently stands
  Try surge and get your team members to press the damn synergy key. This is a common misconception.
  Power comes from your team mates ability to press X (or where the heck it is.)
  The abilities are fine.
  
• Giving the class back it's utility, which was nerfed in PvE due largely to PvP complaints
  Um, nope. The class skills got balanced, adding a buff/debuff system and made ultimates utility work with different effects with both morph and stacking of other skills.
  
  Before 1.6, there was just 1 ultimate with 1 set morph for all Sorcerers = Negate Magic (or kick from group).
  
  The class got much more utility in 1.6 and reduced any obvious OP choice.
  Also, changed due to complaints. Isn't that what you trying to do? Hows that bad?
  
• Reducing reliance on non-class abilities, which are often considerably more superior
  You lost me. So global abilities that everyone can use are......unbalanced? Because.....everyone can use them? Please elaborate. What skill(s) are sorcerers more reliant on then the other 3 classes? Or other builds of sorcerers?
  
  You can pick what you want but not at the same time. Again, it is about player skill. Not the skill itself.
  Note: Just because one build seams good, you might do better with something else`.
  
• Replacing useless Sorcerer skill morphs with better magicka morphs
  Sorcerers are focus magika but not bound only to use magika.
  Skill A may not be what you want in build B, but that doesn't make it useless. Look again. Ask mighty mages!
  How much spell penetration should you have over other 3 classes?
  
• Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs
  You want to hybrid or think hybrid is useless?
  They made all class skills valid. But non OP.
  
• Making Sorcerer main-healing viable at all
  Sorcerers are focus magika. Not healing (Thats the OP Templar class). Sorcerers have magika ways to heal, regen and absorb damage. Check again!
  
  Block and healing potions works!
  And that freakin shield of yours!
  
  Healing staff everyone can do. Its about magika pool and crit. Which the class got lots in.
  
• Making Sorcerer tanking more viable
  Gear, type of armor, block and simple move is much more tank then any class (DK selfheal is good though).
  Again, Sorcerers are focused Magika. They have class skills for other things but do not master them.
  
  You have magika. There are skills that use magika to heal, absorb or defend you. Look around.
  Heavy attack returns quite a bit of magika. Bit to much maybe....
  
• Making non-staff Sorcerers more viable
  Erhm. Overload, light attacks, Undaunted, any damn melee weapon!
  
  Weapons across the board isnt that heavy reliant on class skill. Helps but use your build is far more important. You can choose widely but not all at the same time.
  
• Removing cooldown on Surge random damage proc self-heal and replacing with more reliable mechanic
  The cooldown and proc are balanced with other classes skills. Common mistake only to look at your class and not how gimp DK GOT! Classes are not mirror of each other. But balanced.
  
  Sorcerers got a big advantage over other classes when it comes to magika damage use. Helps healing too...
  

Chat with some of the grand Magus (heh) in Cyro. Look around at skills, global skills, morphs, gear and factor in buff/debuff. You might find good things I haven't.

Your frustration might be valid, but not your conclusion where to look for a solution!

Jar_Ek

@Cogo This thread shouldn't be taken in isolation. Look on the forums here for the numerous other thread about the issues, real or imagined, about sorcerers and then come back and comment. This is essentially a shorthand summary and a request to get some clarity.

Kahrgan

I really enjoyed my sorc till about v2 then dumped him to play a class that was more fun and synergized better for stam builds.

Ygaer

I think the thing that bothers me about Sorc's (of which I am one and has been my only max rank toon since release) is that nowadays our DPS is basically reliant on a cheezy setup and boring "rotation" to reach ridiculously good numbers. Last night I did 22k DPS on Urata over 16 seconds with overload and one liquid lightning. It was funny, but it wasn't fun. The problem is if I don't use overload, then I'm a really pedestrian DPS who also doesn't have any real utility to my group/raid other than a really watered down negate that's generally just a matter of convenience. Right now, Sorcs are extremely competitive as a trials DPS class simply because of Overload, but if you take it away or nerf it then we'll go back to being pretty undesirable like a few months ago.

What I really wish for is that Sorcs just got a really nice passive boost to spell damage while using a destro/resto staff. I wouldn't be encouraged to use a dwield/2h setup for my execute bar because it offers more spell damage, and it'd also give Sorcs a bump in healing over DKs and NBs who still have much more useful class skills in that area, while also increasing our sustainable DPS a bit. Then you can make Overload less stupid so that the best damage in the game can't be done while spamming left click.

Cogo

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Cogo This thread shouldn't be taken in isolation. Look on the forums here for the numerous other thread about the issues, real or imagined, about sorcerers and then come back and comment. This is essentially a shorthand summary and a request to get some clarity.

Yo!

I actually agree that we need the big picture to look at skills and classes. If we isolate to only one class or view, will not give a real answer.
Class skills, racials, world mechanics, global skills, weapon, caps, tons of gear and !!BLOCK!! etc, needs to be factored in.

We got like 10 new global skills as well? Not seen much about those.....

We blend fact and opinions. Not always easy to separate them?
For example,

• It's a fact that players soft caps are gone.
• It's an opinion that sorcerers are weaker then other classes.

Are they? Could be!
Right or wrong...we can argue about the effectiveness of the classes, but need to put them in relation to everything else.

Soft caps are gone. No need to argue there...
Just like you say, we need to look at all info about class effectiveness and abilities.
Update 6 made 100 classes and not just 4
Should Sorcerers have a direct heal as well as the magika build? What good are templars then?

In the start of update 6, there was a big scream that sorcerers become useless.
One of the main reasons was the change of to negate. It calmed down. All ultimates are useful with even more utility in choosing morphs.

Then add Synergies on top of that.

Tons of utility for all. What was best? Up to you! No?
That's why I don't think sorcerers got nerfed with less utility. All classes got more. Mages too....
How effective you are......erhm, that's a lot on the player. :-p.

Until now, pvp sorcerers only had the negate with 1 static morph to use or kick from group.
Negate is still very useful just like all ultimates, but for different reasons. The player choose........and can choose wrong! ;-) All 4 classes have its unique role but not stuck in them. Players can choose whatever but not at the same time.

Just spamming negate is not what sorcerers are for anymore! How effective you are, is up to you instead of smashing buttons!

All skills are useful for something. Very few sticks out as the obvious choice, like the DK standard and Sorcerers negate. The update created lots of utility for all classes and play styles. Options for builds went from maybe 10 to 100s.

Light armor weak?
Light armor was another bigger concern. Why? Because you died if a 20 foot siege stone fell on you. All 3 armors works very. Choose what you like! The mechanics and effects gives you more alternative for your build.

You choose. Gain power in something, weaken it elsewhere.

Sorcerers might need some work. Sure!
No idea about what, but the list stated here got lots of question marks on it.
All 4 classes are much more designable for players then it was. Feel free to prove me wrong! ;-).

Using your old build, gear and play style, simply woun't do the same thing.

Is it the class that's broken, or simply just a matter of, erhm, utilizing what you are looking for and you cant be superman at everything ;-)

No caps. More usable skills, new stats, different kinds of morphs, buffs/debuffs and general mechanics that applies to all, is a big versatility for all players. Without removing the good ol fashion nuke wizard for sorcerers.

The solution isn't to make light armor protect you more, but to learn to move, block or dodge roll .
And then you get all the good parts related to magika from that choice.

That said....if the class needs buffing/fixing. Then fix it! But fix the right thing!

Aeternus

LameoveR wrote: »

Oh well, it becomes another "poor poor sorcs, sigh" thread.
Boost here, boost there...
Here is sorc tank
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1721171/#Comment_1721171
Here is sorc soloing AA Atronach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U
L2P your sorcs.

Wow, what riveting and thrilling gameplay! This 3-toggle build would be perfect for my 3 year old nephew. I'm sure he would have fun playing it along with his Leap Frog games.