Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

exiledtyrant

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

Glurin

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

exiledtyrant

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

How has current design attempted to solve stamina dps issues? By adding stamina morphs. For all classes but sorcerer this has worked. Sorcerers stamina morphs just happened to fall flat. It is obvious there was an attempt to improve stamina dps by improving stamina utility. This didn't do so well partially because the numbers were to low and didn't synergize. Also being really good at resource management and scaling doesn't mean anything in this broken landscape of infinite regen and over powered cost reduction. Everyone is good at resource management and scaling so there is no power gain over other builds or classes.

Quite frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. If you want to act like it's a big mystery what the morphs will use as a resource, fine. I have yet to see a magicka suggestion that would actually help a stamina sorcerer without leading to abuse cost wise or an overpowered skill because it crosses the line between magicka and stamina benefits. The only two skills that may be safe with a cost reduction are surge and lightning form and even those are questionable. Other classes with stamina builds have to pay for their magicka utility and I don't like cost without consequence. Even if they were made more spammable it's two buffs stamina sorcerer's can keep up( if just barely) therefore it offers no new game play. I do know stamina morphs have worked for the other classes and look to be easier to balance. If there's a magic pill I'll wait to see it, until then I'm done.

Glurin

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

How has current design attempted to solve stamina dps issues? By adding stamina morphs. For all classes but sorcerer this has worked. Sorcerers stamina morphs just happened to fall flat. It is obvious there was an attempt to improve stamina dps by improving stamina utility. This didn't do so well partially because the numbers were to low and didn't synergize. Also being really good at resource management and scaling doesn't mean anything in this broken landscape of infinite regen and over powered cost reduction. Everyone is good at resource management and scaling so there is no power gain over other builds or classes.

Quite frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. If you want to act like it's a big mystery what the morphs will use as a resource, fine. I have yet to see a magicka suggestion that would actually help a stamina sorcerer without leading to abuse cost wise or an overpowered skill because it crosses the line between magicka and stamina benefits. The only two skills that may be safe with a cost reduction are surge and lightning form and even those are questionable. Other classes with stamina builds have to pay for their magicka utility and I don't like cost without consequence. Even if they were made more spammable it's two buffs stamina sorcerer's can keep up( if just barely) therefore it offers no new game play. I do know stamina morphs have worked for the other classes and look to be easier to balance. If there's a magic pill I'll wait to see it, until then I'm done.

There, you see? You know but you don't understand. (I could swear that's a movie quote from somewhere.) You're so tunnel vision focused on getting more stamina morphs that you don't notice what else might be the problem or what other solutions may exist or what the consequences of your own solution's may be. In fact, you and several of those with you have simply been responding to the very mention of the possibility of other solutions with shock and contempt.

The focus should be on improving the overall quality of the class, not getting more stamina morphs at the expense of other builds "because they have more so they can afford to lose a few".

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

How has current design attempted to solve stamina dps issues? By adding stamina morphs. For all classes but sorcerer this has worked. Sorcerers stamina morphs just happened to fall flat. It is obvious there was an attempt to improve stamina dps by improving stamina utility. This didn't do so well partially because the numbers were to low and didn't synergize. Also being really good at resource management and scaling doesn't mean anything in this broken landscape of infinite regen and over powered cost reduction. Everyone is good at resource management and scaling so there is no power gain over other builds or classes.

Quite frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. If you want to act like it's a big mystery what the morphs will use as a resource, fine. I have yet to see a magicka suggestion that would actually help a stamina sorcerer without leading to abuse cost wise or an overpowered skill because it crosses the line between magicka and stamina benefits. The only two skills that may be safe with a cost reduction are surge and lightning form and even those are questionable. Other classes with stamina builds have to pay for their magicka utility and I don't like cost without consequence. Even if they were made more spammable it's two buffs stamina sorcerer's can keep up( if just barely) therefore it offers no new game play. I do know stamina morphs have worked for the other classes and look to be easier to balance. If there's a magic pill I'll wait to see it, until then I'm done.

There, you see? You know but you don't understand. (I could swear that's a movie quote from somewhere.) You're so tunnel vision focused on getting more stamina morphs that you don't notice what else might be the problem or what other solutions may exist or what the consequences of your own solution's may be. In fact, you and several of those with you have simply been responding to the very mention of the possibility of other solutions with shock and contempt.

The focus should be on improving the overall quality of the class, not getting more stamina morphs at the expense of other builds "because they have more so they can afford to lose a few".

Actually, we've detailed the other problems and issues FAR more extensively than you have in this thread.

We simply don't agree w/ you. At all.

exiledtyrant

What if dark deal gave a damage shield while it channeled?

Varicite

exiledtyrant wrote: »

What if dark deal gave a damage shield while it channeled?

That better be one heck of a damage shield. Do you have any idea how much ridiculous damage I can do in the time it takes to channel this things?

I'm sure any of my 3 NBs could kill you at least twice. : P

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

How has current design attempted to solve stamina dps issues? By adding stamina morphs. For all classes but sorcerer this has worked. Sorcerers stamina morphs just happened to fall flat. It is obvious there was an attempt to improve stamina dps by improving stamina utility. This didn't do so well partially because the numbers were to low and didn't synergize. Also being really good at resource management and scaling doesn't mean anything in this broken landscape of infinite regen and over powered cost reduction. Everyone is good at resource management and scaling so there is no power gain over other builds or classes.

Quite frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. If you want to act like it's a big mystery what the morphs will use as a resource, fine. I have yet to see a magicka suggestion that would actually help a stamina sorcerer without leading to abuse cost wise or an overpowered skill because it crosses the line between magicka and stamina benefits. The only two skills that may be safe with a cost reduction are surge and lightning form and even those are questionable. Other classes with stamina builds have to pay for their magicka utility and I don't like cost without consequence. Even if they were made more spammable it's two buffs stamina sorcerer's can keep up( if just barely) therefore it offers no new game play. I do know stamina morphs have worked for the other classes and look to be easier to balance. If there's a magic pill I'll wait to see it, until then I'm done.

There, you see? You know but you don't understand. (I could swear that's a movie quote from somewhere.) You're so tunnel vision focused on getting more stamina morphs that you don't notice what else might be the problem or what other solutions may exist or what the consequences of your own solution's may be. In fact, you and several of those with you have simply been responding to the very mention of the possibility of other solutions with shock and contempt.

The focus should be on improving the overall quality of the class, not getting more stamina morphs at the expense of other builds "because they have more so they can afford to lose a few".

Actually, we've detailed the other problems and issues FAR more extensively than you have in this thread.

We simply don't agree w/ you. At all.

Yes, I get the feeling that at this point your focus has actually shifted from anything game related to just disagreeing with me.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I know that Soon is trademarked around here and fully understand, but could the amount Soon be quantified in any way? I ask because my play time is limited and so is my in game gold and honestly, I've been waiting on these stamina/tank/healer updates for a couple of months now so that I can finally craft a set of fully pimped out gear. I've been rolling magicka focused ever since 1.6 and I am hesitant to use my gold tempers on any of my gear because I'd much rather play a stamina build and do not want to invest in magicka gear right before changes are introduced that make me want to switch back to a stamina build. There have been quite a few patches since 1.6 went live and quite a few class tweaks in those patches, none of which addressed Sorc in a stamina/tank/healer build. Are we waiting for the next major update for Sorc changes (2.1?) or are these changes something that can be sneaked in during these incremental patches?

I know with the console versions coming out that we won't be getting a major update for quite a while and I'm just wondering if I should expect Sorc stamina/tank/healer changes before or after the next major update?

Hey @Erock25! We're currently planning to have a lot of these Sorcerer changes accompany the next major update, which will be sometime after our console launch. No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options.

We'll continue to use the weekly incremental patches to address any broken abilities or particularly egregious balance issues.

Seems like they want to to me like they stated above. There's plenty of comments like that buried in the PTS. The patch notes for 1.6 clearly show the direction they are heading and what they intend.

" No concrete details yet, though we can tell you that stamina Sorcs will have some more viable DPS options. "

Meaning what, exactly? That doesn't say "We're going to convert skills to stamina." or "We're turning sorcerers into warriors." or "Sorcerers are going to get another skill line."

You're reading too much into a deliberately vague statement and assuming that it means full on stamina morphs. For all you know, it only means they're adding major endurance to power surge. Or it could mean they're getting rid of magicka altogether.

Or it could mean they don't have a clue what they're going to do and the only reason this thread has survived despite the state it's in is because they're desperate for ideas.

The only concrete thing you can take from that is that they are aware that sorcerer stamina builds are falling a bit short and they are looking into correcting it.

It's not unlike a certain developer's frequent use of the word "soon". Most reasonable people who've been around long enough to know better have learned that it means "don't hold your breath".

How has current design attempted to solve stamina dps issues? By adding stamina morphs. For all classes but sorcerer this has worked. Sorcerers stamina morphs just happened to fall flat. It is obvious there was an attempt to improve stamina dps by improving stamina utility. This didn't do so well partially because the numbers were to low and didn't synergize. Also being really good at resource management and scaling doesn't mean anything in this broken landscape of infinite regen and over powered cost reduction. Everyone is good at resource management and scaling so there is no power gain over other builds or classes.

Quite frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. If you want to act like it's a big mystery what the morphs will use as a resource, fine. I have yet to see a magicka suggestion that would actually help a stamina sorcerer without leading to abuse cost wise or an overpowered skill because it crosses the line between magicka and stamina benefits. The only two skills that may be safe with a cost reduction are surge and lightning form and even those are questionable. Other classes with stamina builds have to pay for their magicka utility and I don't like cost without consequence. Even if they were made more spammable it's two buffs stamina sorcerer's can keep up( if just barely) therefore it offers no new game play. I do know stamina morphs have worked for the other classes and look to be easier to balance. If there's a magic pill I'll wait to see it, until then I'm done.

There, you see? You know but you don't understand. (I could swear that's a movie quote from somewhere.) You're so tunnel vision focused on getting more stamina morphs that you don't notice what else might be the problem or what other solutions may exist or what the consequences of your own solution's may be. In fact, you and several of those with you have simply been responding to the very mention of the possibility of other solutions with shock and contempt.

The focus should be on improving the overall quality of the class, not getting more stamina morphs at the expense of other builds "because they have more so they can afford to lose a few".

Actually, we've detailed the other problems and issues FAR more extensively than you have in this thread.

We simply don't agree w/ you. At all.

Yes, I get the feeling that at this point your focus has actually shifted from anything game related to just disagreeing with me.

Don't worry, I can do both. While chewing bubble gum. I'm talented that way. : )

Glurin

I'm all out of gum.

shane.roberts25b14_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what's funny? People that cry out for variety but can't see past the stereotypes.

Mage != robe.

Metal suit != not mage.

( != means "does not equal", just in case you were unaware.)

And by the same token, melee weapons and medium armor != not sorcerer.

Oh I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said clothing and weapons have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a character is a sorcerer or a mage or a warrior or a plumber and is irrelevant to the fundamental mechanics of how abilities operate within the context of the Elder Scrolls universe.

The part you are missing is this: Damage scales off resource pools (i.e. magicka damage scales off magicka pool, physical damage scales off stamina pool), class abilities use said resource pools, and the type of armor worn directly effects the size of those resource pools. Therefore: A sorc in heavy armor has a lower magicka pool, meaning they cant cast as many class abilities, and those abilities do less damage than if the sorc was wearing light armor.

Glurin

shane.roberts25b14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what's funny? People that cry out for variety but can't see past the stereotypes.

Mage != robe.

Metal suit != not mage.

( != means "does not equal", just in case you were unaware.)

And by the same token, melee weapons and medium armor != not sorcerer.

Oh I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said clothing and weapons have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a character is a sorcerer or a mage or a warrior or a plumber and is irrelevant to the fundamental mechanics of how abilities operate within the context of the Elder Scrolls universe.

The part you are missing is this: Damage scales off resource pools (i.e. magicka damage scales off magicka pool, physical damage scales off stamina pool), class abilities use said resource pools, and the type of armor worn directly effects the size of those resource pools. Therefore: A sorc in heavy armor has a lower magicka pool, meaning they cant cast as many class abilities, and those abilities do less damage than if the sorc was wearing light armor.

Oh trust me. I didn't miss that at all. It just doesn't have anything to do with what makes a sorcerer a sorcerer, which was the discussion at the time.

Wearing heavy armor won't change the fact that an ability scales off magicka or stamina or something else. Having a smaller pool just means you have a smaller pool. Everything else works the same so that those particular skills being less effective than they would be otherwise is your trade off for the higher resistance and survivability. That's how balance works in a system with diversity and versatility as a cornerstone. If it didn't work that way, everyone would basically be walking gods.

Nutronic

Varicite wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

What if dark deal gave a damage shield while it channeled?

That better be one heck of a damage shield. Do you have any idea how much ridiculous damage I can do in the time it takes to channel this things?

I'm sure any of my 3 NBs could kill you at least twice. : P

1. This ability probably should be balanced based on PVP, as it has far more potential as a PVE skill
2. Instead of a shield, if it just offered the Major Protection buff for it's duration (or a similar damage cap skill) it would be appealing. The odds of being Disrupted from a channel during PVE are low if you time it right, where as in PVP this couldn't be abused due to people getting a free hit on you then following up with a kill.

Varicite

Nutronic wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

What if dark deal gave a damage shield while it channeled?

That better be one heck of a damage shield. Do you have any idea how much ridiculous damage I can do in the time it takes to channel this things?

I'm sure any of my 3 NBs could kill you at least twice. : P

1. This ability probably should be balanced based on PVP, as it has far more potential as a PVE skill
2. Instead of a shield, if it just offered the Major Protection buff for it's duration (or a similar damage cap skill) it would be appealing. The odds of being Disrupted from a channel during PVE are low if you time it right, where as in PVP this couldn't be abused due to people getting a free hit on you then following up with a kill.

Eh, while I see where you're going w/ this, I'm curious what the point of changing it at all would be, then?

The major complaint about the ability in PvE isn't the fact that you can be damaged during it, but the fact that it simply takes too much time away from doing important things, such as DPSing, tanking, or healing.

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Nutronic wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

What if dark deal gave a damage shield while it channeled?

That better be one heck of a damage shield. Do you have any idea how much ridiculous damage I can do in the time it takes to channel this things?

I'm sure any of my 3 NBs could kill you at least twice. : P

1. This ability probably should be balanced based on PVP, as it has far more potential as a PVE skill
2. Instead of a shield, if it just offered the Major Protection buff for it's duration (or a similar damage cap skill) it would be appealing. The odds of being Disrupted from a channel during PVE are low if you time it right, where as in PVP this couldn't be abused due to people getting a free hit on you then following up with a kill.

Eh, while I see where you're going w/ this, I'm curious what the point of changing it at all would be, then?

The major complaint about the ability in PvE isn't the fact that you can be damaged during it, but the fact that it simply takes too much time away from doing important things, such as DPSing, tanking, or healing.

If that's the case, then it's more of a L2P issue. Four seconds isn't that long, at least in PvE. If you need to use it then you're not really DPSing or tanking or healing anyway because you don't have the resources for it. WoW mages have a similar spell (minus the healing and resource cost) to regenerate mana that takes six seconds and I never felt it was taking too long to do it's job in my time there.

But it does leave you essentially immobile, which means it's easy to get caught in AoE or be unable to quickly react to an attack, which happens quite frequently in both PvE and PvP. Hence the reason damage mitigation might be the way to go, though a shorter duration would help with that as well.

Varicite

4 seconds is a LONG time in a boss fight that takes 29 seconds and you're trying to place on leaderboards.

I agree that 4 seconds isn't that long of a time if you are just messing around by yourself or w/ a few friends running dungeons for fun.

You may not be the type of player who cares about pushing times, but the game is certainly geared toward that at the higher end.

I honestly don't think it's fair to attempt to simply ignore an entire facet of gameplay (PvP) when considering designs for abilities, though.

Glurin

Probably shouldn't be relying on a skill like that under those conditions then. It's not really meant for min/max and blasting through things at the fastest possible speed. It's meant to get you back into the fight after you've burned yourself out.

But like I said, if you need to use it, then you're not able to perform your role anyway simply because you lack the resources to do so. Do the other classes even have something similar?

And yes, PvP needs to be taken into consideration as well. How many times has a change been made to benefit PvP that screwed over the PvE side of things?

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Probably shouldn't be relying on a skill like that under those conditions then. It's not really meant for min/max and blasting through things at the fastest possible speed. It's meant to get you back into the fight after you've burned yourself out.

But like I said, if you need to use it, then you're not able to perform your role anyway simply because you lack the resources to do so. Do the other classes even have something similar?

And yes, PvP needs to be taken into consideration as well. How many times has a change been made to benefit PvP that screwed over the PvE side of things?

The vast majority of Sorcs don't rely on it at all, under any circumstance. Because, as you just said, if you need to use it, you aren't able to do your job anyway. And most players make sure not to let it get to that point through resource management.

The current makeup of the ability rewards only players who are unskilled at managing resources, and only marginally, as using Dark Channel is always a DPS loss compared to not getting to the point where you need it.

For magicka builds, Equilibrium is strictly better, and for Stamina builds... not using it at all is also strictly better, especially since most stam builds operate from melee range and channeling an ability for 4 seconds is a completely different ballgame as melee than as a ranged caster.

Glurin

That's true. And hybrids, who are far more likely to run out of stamina or magicka, can't really use it either because they've already got their "spare" resource allocated for other abilities.

So as it stands, it's biggest benefit is the heal on it, which just gets eaten up by the damage you take while channeling.

Nutronic

That's the problem though, no one uses this spell because they will always have better options to put on the bar.

As a healer, I don't think casting it should be out of the question, because if you are just spamming healing springs or whatever during some kind of heal gate, it won't last the whole duration of the fight, you should have a few seconds to recoup, rebuff and manage your resources.
As a DPS, this ability should have no place on your bar. However as a tank, I would love to be able to use the stamina morph because anything that reduces my reliance upon "shards" is worth pursing in my book.

Varicite wrote: »

Eh, while I see where you're going w/ this, I'm curious what the point of changing it at all would be, then?

The major complaint about the ability in PvE isn't the fact that you can be damaged during it, but the fact that it simply takes too much time away from doing important things, such as DPSing, tanking, or healing.

I'm being very bias/selfish here, and pretty much asking for a tanking spell. Something with either a damage cap or Major Protection buff is currently all sorc tanks lack to do something like Manticora. The potential would be there for this spell, but it being a channel and all means you can't block.

I still don't see it being something that they should even attempt to balance for PVP. I feel that if it was made appealing for PVE, people will use it in PVP, and changes to balance it for both should then be made there. Just IMO.

Jar_Ek

Maybe dark deal / conversion / exchange should simply be dumped completely and a new skill put in it place. But if so, what? Something that could be morphed to support healers or tanks maybe?

seanvwolf

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Except of course in those classic online games where stamina actually dictated your success with casting and fizzle ratio.

Ritualist magic casters (daggers)/spiritual pugilists in classic (and some modern) mud's were almost entirely physical damage dealers but also had high utility (which is what I think the sorc base class is supposed to excel at and what ZOS really needs to adjust; meaning ZOS make sorc utility useful against bosses please!).

ESO didn't call the class MAGE. They called it Sorcerer...

In the TES universe, the "magey" classes aren't just stick and skirt... they include Battlemages (daedric summoning, 2h weapons, summon atronach), Spellswords (1h, lightning skills, overload) and Witchhunters (bound armaments/aegis, bow, negate) roles that rely heavily on physical attacks and proficiency and are easily built from ESO's Sorcerer class.

Glurin

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Except of course in those classic online games where stamina actually dictated your success with casting and fizzle ratio.

Ritualist magic casters (daggers)/spritual pugilists in classic (and some modern) mud's were almost entirely physical damage dealers but also had high utility (which is what I think the sorc base class is supposed to excel at and what ZOS really needs to adjust; meaning ZOS make sorc utility useful against bosses please!).

ESO didn't call the class MAGE. They called it Sorcerer...

In the TES universe, the "magey" classes aren't just stick and skirt... they include Battlemages (daedric summoning, 2h weapons, summon atronach), Spellswords (1h, lightning skills, overload) and Witchhunters (bound armaments/aegis, bow, negate) roles that rely heavily on physical attacks and proficiency and are easily built from ESO's Sorcerer class.

Which, as I have pointed out several times now, means absolute diddly squat.

Sorcerer = mage = wizard = spell slinger = witch = caster = battlemage = spellsword = necromancer = conjurer = magus = enchanter = occultist = warlock = crazy guy in a tower throwing fireballs at rats = steel clad champion on the front lines shooting lightning at his foes = argonian maid summoning a daedroth to sweep the front steps so she can polish the master's spear.

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Except of course in those classic online games where stamina actually dictated your success with casting and fizzle ratio.

Ritualist magic casters (daggers)/spritual pugilists in classic (and some modern) mud's were almost entirely physical damage dealers but also had high utility (which is what I think the sorc base class is supposed to excel at and what ZOS really needs to adjust; meaning ZOS make sorc utility useful against bosses please!).

ESO didn't call the class MAGE. They called it Sorcerer...

In the TES universe, the "magey" classes aren't just stick and skirt... they include Battlemages (daedric summoning, 2h weapons, summon atronach), Spellswords (1h, lightning skills, overload) and Witchhunters (bound armaments/aegis, bow, negate) roles that rely heavily on physical attacks and proficiency and are easily built from ESO's Sorcerer class.

Which, as I have pointed out several times now, means absolute diddly squat.

Sorcerer = mage = wizard = spell slinger = witch = caster = battlemage = spellsword = necromancer = conjurer = magus = enchanter = occultist = warlock = crazy guy in a tower throwing fireballs at rats = steel clad champion on the front lines shooting lightning at his foes = argonian maid summoning a daedroth to sweep the front steps so she can polish the master's spear.

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Why do we keep getting into this stupid nonsense?

Keep it on topic.

seanvwolf

Glurin wrote: »

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Dragonborn powers considered magic but had 0 magicka cost in Skyrim?

This seems to be more of you having a beef with having any spells cost stamina. If that's the case, then all of the other classes that have stamina morphs should also be on your complaint bar. Doesn't the DK, NB and Temp also have skills that cost Magicka? Does this also make them mages in your eyes? So what are you arguing here? Or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

People complained about the lack of stamina based skills to supplement their builds. Since ZOS decided to make some of the class skills have a stamina cost, it follows natural suit that all classes should have a viable setup for any given role among all the skill lines available to them. Giving one class more options at stamina cost abilities puts an unfair advantage from one point of view for those stamina users in another class.

That's the point of this thread, in case you forgot.

Glurin

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Dragonborn powers considered magic but had 0 magicka cost in Skyrim?

Correct. They used an entirely different kind of resource and functioned more like lesser powers. They did not tromp all over existing, long established laws of the universe.

seanvwolf wrote: »

This seems to be more of you having a beef with having any spells cost stamina.

Let me ask you this. Why do they call it a "Warp Drive"? Why not call it a rocket engine or a motor or a crank?

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Except of course in those classic online games where stamina actually dictated your success with casting and fizzle ratio.

Ritualist magic casters (daggers)/spritual pugilists in classic (and some modern) mud's were almost entirely physical damage dealers but also had high utility (which is what I think the sorc base class is supposed to excel at and what ZOS really needs to adjust; meaning ZOS make sorc utility useful against bosses please!).

ESO didn't call the class MAGE. They called it Sorcerer...

In the TES universe, the "magey" classes aren't just stick and skirt... they include Battlemages (daedric summoning, 2h weapons, summon atronach), Spellswords (1h, lightning skills, overload) and Witchhunters (bound armaments/aegis, bow, negate) roles that rely heavily on physical attacks and proficiency and are easily built from ESO's Sorcerer class.

Which, as I have pointed out several times now, means absolute diddly squat.

Sorcerer = mage = wizard = spell slinger = witch = caster = battlemage = spellsword = necromancer = conjurer = magus = enchanter = occultist = warlock = crazy guy in a tower throwing fireballs at rats = steel clad champion on the front lines shooting lightning at his foes = argonian maid summoning a daedroth to sweep the front steps so she can polish the master's spear.

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Why do we keep getting into this stupid nonsense?

Keep it on topic.

Probably because people can't seem to understand the English language or the underlying reasons why things are the way they are.

It's like starting up an FPS like Call of Duty or Half-life, only now all your weapons and explosives cost the same generic resource to fire. Your rocket launchers uses bullets, your grenades use bullets, your pipe wrench uses bullets, even your fists use bullets. There's no rhyme or reason to it. The devs just caved to people that didn't want to have to make decisions regarding their resources. The world in which the game exists deeply loses something when you make changes like that.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Except of course in those classic online games where stamina actually dictated your success with casting and fizzle ratio.

Ritualist magic casters (daggers)/spritual pugilists in classic (and some modern) mud's were almost entirely physical damage dealers but also had high utility (which is what I think the sorc base class is supposed to excel at and what ZOS really needs to adjust; meaning ZOS make sorc utility useful against bosses please!).

ESO didn't call the class MAGE. They called it Sorcerer...

In the TES universe, the "magey" classes aren't just stick and skirt... they include Battlemages (daedric summoning, 2h weapons, summon atronach), Spellswords (1h, lightning skills, overload) and Witchhunters (bound armaments/aegis, bow, negate) roles that rely heavily on physical attacks and proficiency and are easily built from ESO's Sorcerer class.

Which, as I have pointed out several times now, means absolute diddly squat.

Sorcerer = mage = wizard = spell slinger = witch = caster = battlemage = spellsword = necromancer = conjurer = magus = enchanter = occultist = warlock = crazy guy in a tower throwing fireballs at rats = steel clad champion on the front lines shooting lightning at his foes = argonian maid summoning a daedroth to sweep the front steps so she can polish the master's spear.

What do they all have in common? MAGIC. They all specialize in magic. And in the Elder Scrolls universe, Magic = Magicka. Putting on a metal suit doesn't make you any less of a mage than putting on a dress makes you more of one, nor does what material your shirt is made of change the laws of physics within the Elder Scrolls universe.

Why do we keep getting into this stupid nonsense?

Keep it on topic.

Probably because people can't seem to understand the English language or the underlying reasons why things are the way they are.

It's like starting up an FPS like Call of Duty or Half-life, only now all your weapons and explosives cost the same generic resource to fire. Your rocket launchers uses bullets, your grenades use bullets, your pipe wrench uses bullets, even your fists use bullets. There's no rhyme or reason to it. The devs just caved to people that didn't want to have to make decisions regarding their resources. The world in which the game exists deeply loses something when you make changes like that.

It's not like that at all.

It's more like a Grenade was renamed into "Explosive Round" and now costs bullets, and your normal punch was renamed "Hydraulic Punch" and now cost a bullet as well. They did this because somewhere, balance was not following a primary design principle for their game.

But everything else remained exactly the same as it was before, because that was mostly fine.

Now that is a much more correct analogy.

seanvwolf

Glurin wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

This seems to be more of you having a beef with having any spells cost stamina.

Let me ask you this. Why do they call it a "Warp Drive"? Why not call it a rocket engine or a motor or a crank?

Aside from being an unnecessary analogy, it's also a failed one. A warp drive is a hypothetical system of travel that uses physical components to create a reactor that performs matter-antimatter annihilation. Not magic. That only supports the stamina cost for spell effect argument.

So my assessment is correct. You do have a problem with spells costing stamina. Refer to other games that also have a stamina cost on spells... Vindictus, Dark Souls, DarkFall, Lun-"something or other" and the like. Stamina cost in general isn't the discussion here. That's a topic for another thread and one that was already decided on by ZOS. In ZOS' reality, some spells cost stamina now.

This thread involves sorcerers having a lack of usable stamina morphs, given that the other magicka-using classes have more usable stamina morphs. Any input otherwise only serves as a waste of time.

Glurin

seanvwolf wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

This seems to be more of you having a beef with having any spells cost stamina.

Let me ask you this. Why do they call it a "Warp Drive"? Why not call it a rocket engine or a motor or a crank?

A warp drive is a hypothetical system of travel that uses physical components to create a reactor that performs matter-antimatter annihilation.

Exactly. It's called a warp drive because that's what it is. It's not a rocket or a motor or a crank. To treat it as something that it is not would completely unravel the system and leave people unable to understand anything about it because everything conflicts with itself.

It's the same thing with magicka. Consistency is extremely important. Within the Elder Scrolls universe, magic = magicka. This is a rule that has been established since the beginning, and has been deeply ingrained within the fabric of the lore as well as being a staple mechanic intended to represent that aspect of the universe. To rewrite it now would be like having Darth Vader tell Luke at the end of the third movie "Oh, I'm not actually your father. I'm your twin sister's clone! And Obi Wan is really a wookie! Also, the force is really just making your fingernails grow long so you can move stuff with them from far away."

You need to understand WHY things are the way that they are. Making any changes at all without that understanding is reckless and potentially catastrophic.

What other fantasy universes chose to do with their version of magic doesn't matter. That was their decision to make. There is no committee that decides how all fantasy universes work.