Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Cathexis

@jar_ek I suppose it really hinges on how effective the regen becomes when it is stacked.
It would have to be able to keep up with spell/ability casting. It might need to have some sort of regen bonus if a resource falls below a certain % point every 10-15 seconds or something.

Varicite

Honestly, I actually meant turning Dark Exchange into an instant cast effect, like Equilibrium. One version that converts stamina into magicka / health.

Another version that converts magicka into stamina / health.

Jar_Ek

@Cathexis Aye maybe. What about the rest of the suggestions?

Cathexis

@varicite instant cast would be awesome although you'd have to think about what it would mean for sorcs to have an instant self heal and if that would be

@Jar_Ek most of them look good, making empowered ward scale off health would be interesting, tank sorcerers would actually be a thing; really it should just scale off your highest stat. Personally I think bound armor needs to be scraped in favour of something more useful since if you increase bound armor's stats youforce sorcs to wear costumes or be in bound armor and if you decrease its utility it just becomes useless.

Varicite

Cathexis wrote: »

@varicite instant cast would be awesome although you'd have to think about what it would mean for sorcs to have an instant self heal and if that would be

I assume you were going to finish that sentence w/ "OP". : P

And while I can imagine the tears from non-Sorcs who already have a hard time dealing w/ them in PvP, Sorc is still the only class that doesn't have access to instant-cast on demand healing (w/ NBs coming in a close second, but they can still choose when to heal themselves, albeit through HoTs).

I'm looking at this from a purely PvP perspective for this case only, as I don't feel that it would make a huge difference in the PvE aspect thanks to the prevalence of healers. In PvE, it would basically act like a slightly less powerful Equilibrium (due to the lack of mages' guild passives).

For PvP, I don't honestly think it would be that broken as you're trading your main defensive resource (stamina) for health + magicka and also costing you precious GCDs. Where PvP is concerned, you do not kill a magicka Sorc by exhausting their magicka (not gonna happen, lol).

You kill a Sorc by draining their stamina, CC'ing them, and bursting them down. In this regard, an ability that funnels your stamina into health / magicka is actually a real hindrance and something that I personally wouldn't use on my Sorc unless I was trying to help the enemy for some reason.

Cathexis

@varicite yes the next letters in that sentence were op haha

@Jar_Ek I've been thinking more about the streak morph I think making it % based and setting a minimum cost would compliment that well for stamina sorcs; you still need to be able to use it as an escape utility.. what if you aren't fighting a crowd? just thinking out loud...

exiledtyrant

Dark deal definitely needs to be changed to an instant or 2 second channel. The functionality is sound it just takes to long to do it's job. For both morphs it gives 12% maximum magicka/stamina and 12% health at the cost of 12% maximum magicka or stamina per second. If that was simply changed to 25% per second over the course of two seconds or just a single instant cast you would have a high cost with a high reward. Looking at the 1.6 morphs it's apparent that stamina sorcerer were planned to have more resource control than other classes, or at the very least have their resources matter more.

If dark deal was buffed stamina regen would be much less of an issue and would allow the use of heavy armor and more dps set bonuses with less consequences than other classes. It would also allow more race combinations. Regen would still need to be capped to give sorcerers a distinct advantage over other classes though. It's a neat way to set a class apart. Bound armaments just makes up for the passive bonuses other classes get to increase their melee proficiency. However other classes don't have to give up two slots to break even. I like the potential of bound armaments as it's scaling ties in great with the new CP system. However it could be more recovery oriented if stamina sorcerers are supposed to be better at managing resources than other classes.

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I guess they could:

1. Reduce the cost of lightning form, esp Thundering Presence as this won't change much for magicka but will help stamina.
2. Reduce the cost of surge (same reasons as above)
3. Fix the heal cool down of surge so that it is reliable but limit the number or amount of healing from aoe damage
4. Add a major endurance regeneration buff to critical surge so that there is one and critical surge is useful
5. Make streak provide magicka back based on the number of targets hit (helps stamina by essentially reducing cost and promotes its use offensively = less running away = happier pvpers)
6. Make encase snare morph ground targetable (circular aoe) and add a cost reduction of 5% per 20% when used at less than max range to a max of 20% (so if placed on top of yourself its 20% less expensive)
7. Change dark exchange to kill one resource regeneration and double the other two. Make it a toggle.
8. Make daedric mines scale off stamina or magicka. Reduce the cost of all variants that have a 3s cast by 20%.
9. Make all pets damage scale with magicka or stamina. Make pet health scale up with health of summoner.
10. Make empowered ward scale of health
11. Change bound armour to be minor protection. Aegis to add armour and spell resist. Armaments to increase light and heavy damage.

How does that sound? Admittedly it does nothing for the magicka centric passives, but it would help stamina lot without crippling magicka. Oh and I deliberately dodged any direct stamina morph issues... one damage one would probably still be needed...

Sounds like a better thought out list than any other's I've read.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.

lol, hijack the class. The class isn't working the way it was advertised, which is the same way ALL classes are advertised, which is flexible.

"Just pick another class, man" doesn't cut it when the class is failing at its primary design goal, which is to provide flavor.

NB = shadow / blood flavor
Templar = Light / purifying flavor
DK = Fire / earth flavor
Sorc = Lightning / arcane flavor

All of these merely provide a thematic toolset w/ which to accomplish tasks. Classes are NOT supposed to govern your choice of weapons to the point of prohibition.

If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.

I'm not saying reroll. I'm saying you should have known better before you even made one, or at the very least realized it wasn't going to work before you even hit the vet levels. Seriously. You made a bad choice and then want to blame it on the class.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Mumnoch wrote: »

There's a new MMO set to release in May. Now that this game is B2P I've no intention of paying any more money to support this company until they fix the Sorc class (and personally the biased female prudish armor).


There's new MMO's coming out and soon a new TES game. Zenimax had their chance and blew it imo. Through attrition and ignoring us they have managed to whittle down the number of Sorc complaint post's to just a few staying on the first page. I do not believe they will do anything to help the Sorc community out and I'm one of many that thinks this way.

Speak with your time and your wallet. It has been proven time and time again the only way a company will listen is if they suffer monetary damage from it (right @Steam ?). Hurt Zenimax's bottom line and then and only then will they do something to change.

Bye and good luck!

CP5

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.

lol, hijack the class. The class isn't working the way it was advertised, which is the same way ALL classes are advertised, which is flexible.

"Just pick another class, man" doesn't cut it when the class is failing at its primary design goal, which is to provide flavor.

NB = shadow / blood flavor
Templar = Light / purifying flavor
DK = Fire / earth flavor
Sorc = Lightning / arcane flavor

All of these merely provide a thematic toolset w/ which to accomplish tasks. Classes are NOT supposed to govern your choice of weapons to the point of prohibition.

If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.

I'm not saying reroll. I'm saying you should have known better before you even made one, or at the very least realized it wasn't going to work before you even hit the vet levels. Seriously. You made a bad choice and then want to blame it on the class.

This is Elder Scrolls Online, where classes act as tool kits that allow you to build for any role with a unique spin on that build provided by what abilities the class has. If you don't understand that in this game all classes are intended to preform every role and that you feel the sorcerer should be shoehorned into only one role simply because you chose it for that purpose then i'm sorry to say but that is not intended by design and will change.

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.

lol, hijack the class. The class isn't working the way it was advertised, which is the same way ALL classes are advertised, which is flexible.

"Just pick another class, man" doesn't cut it when the class is failing at its primary design goal, which is to provide flavor.

NB = shadow / blood flavor
Templar = Light / purifying flavor
DK = Fire / earth flavor
Sorc = Lightning / arcane flavor

All of these merely provide a thematic toolset w/ which to accomplish tasks. Classes are NOT supposed to govern your choice of weapons to the point of prohibition.

If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.

I'm not saying reroll. I'm saying you should have known better before you even made one, or at the very least realized it wasn't going to work before you even hit the vet levels. Seriously. You made a bad choice and then want to blame it on the class.

Actually, what I "should have known" is what I DO know:

All classes are designed to be able to pick up any weapon and excel w/ it, w/in a reasonable deviance from one another.

I didn't make a "bad choice", ZOS made a "bad choice" during 1.6 PTS when failing to meet the class design goal w/ Sorcerers.

And again, my Sorcerer is MAGICKA-based, Ball of Lightning, Destro / Resto, Daedric Mines, Crystal Frags, all that. Quit trying to make this personal, thanks.

Emma_Overload

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Dark deal definitely needs to be changed to an instant or 2 second channel. The functionality is sound it just takes to long to do it's job. For both morphs it gives 12% maximum magicka/stamina and 12% health at the cost of 12% maximum magicka or stamina per second. If that was simply changed to 25% per second over the course of two seconds or just a single instant cast you would have a high cost with a high reward. Looking at the 1.6 morphs it's apparent that stamina sorcerer were planned to have more resource control than other classes, or at the very least have their resources matter more.

If dark deal was buffed stamina regen would be much less of an issue and would allow the use of heavy armor and more dps set bonuses with less consequences than other classes. It would also allow more race combinations. Regen would still need to be capped to give sorcerers a distinct advantage over other classes though. It's a neat way to set a class apart. Bound armaments just makes up for the passive bonuses other classes get to increase their melee proficiency. However other classes don't have to give up two slots to break even. I like the potential of bound armaments as it's scaling ties in great with the new CP system. However it could be more recovery oriented if stamina sorcerers are supposed to be better at managing resources than other classes.

Even a 2 second channel would be too long, it really needs to be instant for the sake of block casting. For example, the 2nd boss in the Banished Cells dungeon, Shadowrend (and his Shadow Proxy), will wait until the exact moment you drop your block to one-shot you with a special attack. A 2 second heal will get you killed in a situation like that!

.

exiledtyrant

The channel can be flipped on and off pretty fast but if that is to much of a problem it could be instant. The main premise is there should be a larger return and loss of resources in a short window instead of over a super long period of time. Dark deal replenishes a lot of resources it just takes to long to do it. Tanks for instance can get well over 12k health but it takes 4 seconds. I would hope that it still scales with increased healing as well.

There was a class in Rohan: Blood Feud that did resource transfers really well. Maybe I can find a link to it. It was really fun to play at the time.


Here's the skill list:

http://rohan.wikia.com/wiki/Dekan_Skills

The main focus for the resource swapping build was health to mana, mana to health, and and health funnel. The %s look pretty crazy now as the game shifted to power creep and pay to win over the past few years but the premise behind it was pretty cool. Constantly swapping resources to keep your main resource up while on the brink of death and back again was very fun.

Varicite

exiledtyrant wrote: »

The channel can be flipped on and off pretty fast but if that is to much of a problem it could be instant. The main premise is there should be a larger return and loss of resources in a short window instead of over a super long period of time. Dark deal replenishes a lot of resources it just takes to long to do it. Tanks for instance can get well over 12k health but it takes 4 seconds. I would hope that it still scales with increased healing as well.

Well, I am working off the assumption that it would not cost as much nor return as many resources if it were made instant.

You'd have to cast it more than once to get the same effect as you would now, but you wouldn't be stuck in a long channel begging to both be interrupted and mutilated since you are clearly not blocking. : P

exiledtyrant

Exactly but it certainly has to be higher than the current 12%.

cozmon3c_ESO

All classes should be able to build for stamina or magicka dps, tank or healer and be viable. Sorc has fallen short in the stamina dps department and will hopefull be fixed soonish after the consol launch.

PainfulFAFA

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

All classes should be able to build for stamina or magicka dps, tank or healer and be viable. Sorc has fallen short in the stamina dps department and will hopefull be fixed soonish after the consol launch.

Hopefully!
Sorcs need some love

Glurin

CP5 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did I just read that the outside of TES lore is more important than the inside TES lore for Byrom because it supports his argument better?

I am still shaking my head at the length people will go to because they are terrified of one or two more stamina morphs being introduced to a class.

No. We don't want our builds to be reduced to because a few people want to hijack the class. There are three other classes to play if you really want to focus on stamina, yet you choose to be indignant that you are not getting the viable stamina morph you want and those that are actually happy with the class be damned. It's the ultimate form of egocentrism I can think of.

lol, hijack the class. The class isn't working the way it was advertised, which is the same way ALL classes are advertised, which is flexible.

"Just pick another class, man" doesn't cut it when the class is failing at its primary design goal, which is to provide flavor.

NB = shadow / blood flavor
Templar = Light / purifying flavor
DK = Fire / earth flavor
Sorc = Lightning / arcane flavor

All of these merely provide a thematic toolset w/ which to accomplish tasks. Classes are NOT supposed to govern your choice of weapons to the point of prohibition.

If your answer to "Sorcs are underperforming in stamina dps roles" is "Just reroll", then it shows just how far from the mark they currently are and that steps NEED to be taken to rectify the situation.

I'm not saying reroll. I'm saying you should have known better before you even made one, or at the very least realized it wasn't going to work before you even hit the vet levels. Seriously. You made a bad choice and then want to blame it on the class.

This is Elder Scrolls Online, where classes act as tool kits that allow you to build for any role with a unique spin on that build provided by what abilities the class has. If you don't understand that in this game all classes are intended to preform every role and that you feel the sorcerer should be shoehorned into only one role simply because you chose it for that purpose then i'm sorry to say but that is not intended by design and will change.

You're confusing "role" and "build" again. Stamina dps is a build. DPS is a role.

The thing is, ZOS decided to included classes in the game that are similar to how classes work in other MMOs as opposed to basically just providing bonuses to certain abilities like in previous ES titles. Each class has it's own unique skills and abilities and method of getting the job done. When you do that, there is no presumption that every class can perform equally well with every build, no matter how open the rest of the system is.

If you pick the mage class and expect anything that is unique to that class to behave in any way other than as a mage, you're just fooling yourself. The same goes if you pick the fiery warrior class or the crusading priest or the dirty, backstabbing bloodsucker sneak. None of them mean that you must use them in their respective stereotypical fashions or even that you can't use them in a seemingly opposed fashion, but expecting any of the class abilities to function in a way that falls outside of the class's identity is completely unreasonable.

You guys had finally started getting on the right track. Don't fall backwards now.

Cathexis

@glurin is like to point pout though that what is considered a class' identity is entirely subjective and not at all fixed and therefore just as pliable as builds or roles. If it werent, all mage classes in every game would be the same (which they aren't).

Varicite

This again, huh.

"Stamina-based DPS" is not a build, it is a category of the DPS role. It encompasses literally HALF of the DPS role, w/ the other half being assumed by Magicka-based DPS.

A build is much more specific, encompassing skill loadouts, gear choices, attribute choices, race, class, etc. If you were to look up any "build" for this game on a website, I guarantee you that it would be FAR more comprehensive than simply saying: Stamina DPS. Because that is simply the build's role.

Furthermore, your entire concept of what classes are in this game is still skewed, and that's fine, but you are continuing to spread mis-information that a Sorcerer has to be what you keep referring to as a "mage" and cannot excel in other facets of combat.

This is patently false and 100% contradictory to the vision set forth for the classes by the devs.

The classes serve as a beginning archetype from which a player can then build their character into what they like through the addition of weapon skills, guild skill lines, etc. They do NOT form a hard basis from which a class is not meant to stray.

A Templar excels at healing, but is NOT designed to be worse at other roles than healing. A NB is designed to excel at stealth-based combat, but is NOT prohibited by its class choice from becoming a sturdy tank or great group healer.

Likewise, a Sorcerer excels at ranged magical combat, but is NOT designed to be sub-par when choosing to become a melee warrior.

Glurin wrote: »

If you pick the mage class and expect anything that is unique to that class to behave in any way other than as a mage, you're just fooling yourself. The same goes if you pick the fiery warrior class or the crusading priest or the dirty, backstabbing bloodsucker sneak. None of them mean that you must use them in their respective stereotypical fashions or even that you can't use them in a seemingly opposed fashion, but expecting any of the class abilities to function in a way that falls outside of the class's identity is completely unreasonable.

You seem to be a bit confused, as nobody has mentioned anything at all in this thread that could be seen as asking for abilities to function outside of the class' identity.

You seem to think that "Sorc spells cost magicka" is the class identity. It isn't.

Lightning, Dark Magic, Arcane is the class identity. Spells costing magicka is nothing more than a mechanic. If a Sorcerer uses stamina or magicka to teleport forward, it makes absolutely no difference to the identity of the class. The flavor of the class is still there.

Clearly, ZOS feels contrary to what you keep stating. Just look at Ambush (teleporting through the shadows to your target) for proof. Did that change the identity of Nightblades because that attack now uses Stamina? No, the flavor is still 100% there, and players using Ambush are still 100% Nightblades.

Glurin

ffs, I knew this would happen....

Stamina DPS is not a role. It is a build. It is how you fulfill the DPS role. It doesn't matter what specific stamina skills you're using. Nobody is specifically looking for a stamina DPS or magicka DPS or HP DPS when they need someone for their group. They are looking for a DPS because that is the role they need to fill.

Roles define jobs that need doing. Nothing more. A tank is a tank whether he's a stamina tank or a magicka tank. A healer is a healer whether he's a stamina healer or a magicka healer. How effectively they can fulfill that role is determined by their build, among other things. A stamina healer probably isn't going to do as well as a magicka healer, but that's because of his build, not the role.

Varicite wrote: »

Likewise, a Sorcerer excels at ranged magical combat, but is NOT designed to be sub-par when choosing to become a melee warrior.

Never said otherwise.

Glurin wrote: »

If you pick the mage class and expect anything that is unique to that class to behave in any way other than as a mage, you're just fooling yourself. The same goes if you pick the fiery warrior class or the crusading priest or the dirty, backstabbing bloodsucker sneak. None of them mean that you must use them in their respective stereotypical fashions or even that you can't use them in a seemingly opposed fashion, but expecting any of the class abilities to function in a way that falls outside of the class's identity is completely unreasonable.

You seem to be a bit confused, as nobody has mentioned anything at all in this thread that could be seen as asking for abilities to function outside of the class' identity.

Every single one of you that wanted a bunch of stamina morphs did exactly that.

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity, but it goes far beyond that. Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

Erock25

That was such a well thought out and all around awesome post @Varicite that I was just waiting to see how @glurin argued against it. Any reasonable person reading your post couldn't help but be swayed at least partially. I was not disappointed in his response..

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Stamina DPS is not a role. It is a build. It is how you fulfill the DPS role. It doesn't matter what specific stamina skills you're using.

Saying this more times still does not make it true. Stamina DPS is a role. It is a subcategory of the DPS role. A build is much more specific.

This is a build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-stamina-based-dps-build-dw-viable-and-trials-ready/
Here is another build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/
Notice how none of them say: "Just pick whatever, as long as you use [THIS] resource, IT'S A BUILD!"

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity

Then it's a good thing there is no "mage" class. And even if there were, this would still just be a mechanic, not part of a class' identity. In THIS game, a class' identity is squarely defined by the flavor of abilities they bring to the table. Fire, Shadow, Lightning, Holy.

Glurin wrote: »

Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

That used to be the case. It's not anymore.

Now you use stamina to breath flames and teleport through shadows. You use stamina to summon Daedric armor to protect you. You use stamina to summon exploding beams of pure sunlight.

You use magicka to slash at your enemies w/ a concealed blade. You use magicka to charge at your foes w/ a divine lance. You use magicka to lash opponents into submission w/ a whip.

Times, they have changed. And you clearly have not. And now here you are, trying to hold the class back from joining all the others because of your refusal to accept that the game has changed.

Varicite

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Exactly but it certainly has to be higher than the current 12%.

Aaaaand now, back to our topic now that hopefully that other nonsense is (temporarily) done w/.

The tick rate would definitely need to be adjusted, something closer to 20% would be reasonable, I think.

Still, the idea is sound and wouldn't really harm PvE or PvP in a huge manner, imo. Of course, people might start whining about stamina Sorcs if they have access to an on-demand heal, but let's be honest, that's probably a step in the right direction if they are QQ'ing about every other class already. : P

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Stamina DPS is not a role. It is a build. It is how you fulfill the DPS role. It doesn't matter what specific stamina skills you're using.

Saying this more times still does not make it true. Stamina DPS is a role. It is a subcategory of the DPS role. A build is much more specific.

Stamina DPS is not a role. It is not a subcategory of the DPS role. It is not a specific job in a group. It does not fill any special task that only it can fill. Nobody is looking for a stamina DPS because nobody specifically needs a stamina DPS.

Stamina DPS is a build. Listing skills is only a specific build.

Glurin wrote: »

Spells costing magicka is part of a mage's identity

Then it's a good thing there is no "mage" class. And even if there were, this would still just be a mechanic, not part of a class' identity. In THIS game, a class' identity is squarely defined by the flavor of abilities they bring to the table. Fire, Shadow, Lightning, Holy.

SORCERER. Sorcerer = mage. It has always equaled mage and no matter how much effort you put into rewriting the dictionary it will always equal mage.

sorcerer
/ˈsɔːsərə/
noun
1. a person who seeks to control and use magic powers; a wizard or magician


sorcery
/ˈsɔːsərɪ/
noun (pl) -ceries
1. the art, practices, or spells of magic, esp black magic, by which it is sought to harness occult forces or evil spirits in order to produce preternatural effects in the world


If you picked SORCERER believing it to be anything but a SORCERER who practices SORCERY because he is a SORCERER and SORCERERS are people who specialize in SORCERY, then too frikin bad! That doesn't give you the right to redefine the very core identity of what a SORCERER is just because you don't like the idea of being a SORCERER.

Glurin wrote: »

Magicka has always been intended to represent special effects and abilities that fall outside what can be considered physical feats or "normal" parts of the natural world. Stamina, by contrast, has always been intended to represent the physical world. Bashing people in the head with a hammer is not magical and shooting lightning from your eyeballs is not physical.

That used to be the case. It's not anymore.

Then why have it at all? Just get rid of it. No stamina. No magicka. Just one big generic resource pool that represents squat. In fact, lets just get rid of resources altogether. Let everyone use whatever abilities they want whenever they want at no cost. Who needs all that resource management anyway?

While we're at it, lets get rid of weapons and armor. I mean, they're just mechanics, right? Let's just have a bunch of buttons that make the other guy's health number go down by different amounts. (Oh, lets not call it health. Lets call it Excel spreadsheet cell A1.)

It's all just mechanics anyway, right? They don't actually represent anything. They're just numbers that people like seeing go up and down for some reason. Nobody really cares what they mean. People just like watching numbers go up and down so much that they even pay good money to see it. That way they get to see the numbers at their bank go up and down too!

Varicite

Again, if you have a problem w/ the way that ZOS is handling the mechanics in their game, make your own thread about it.

If you want to get on your soapbox about how the ESO class called Sorcerer is just a mage and can only ever be a mage, then make your own thread about it.

If you want to argue about the semantics of the differences between a role and a build, then make your own thread about it.

That's not what this thread is about.

THIS thread is specifically about the lack of quality stamina morphs for Sorcerers. Stay on topic or go start your own thread.

PS) That's cute that you think that Webster's is going to tell you the definition of an ESO Sorcerer. Please tell me what it says about Dragon Knights too, hmm?

Glurin

Firstly, the fact that ZOS didn't covert a bunch of sorcerer skills to stamina indicates that they agree with me. Secondly, you can take your appeal to authority and shove it. It's never going to work.

The difference between a role and a build is important because, as CP5 almost pointed out, this game is intended for every class to be able to fulfill every role with many different builds. If you don't understand what a "role" is and what it is not, then you cannot accurately discuss changes to achieve that goal.

Defining stamina DPS as a "role" sets up a false premise. One that encourages unneeded and unwanted changes to a complex system which will have a detrimental effect on that system as a whole.

Words have meaning, Varicite. If you can't understand that, then you have no business discussing anything here.

Also, no matter how many times you insist that the discussion is about which leg to cut off, it won't negate someone's right to question the need to cut off a leg in the first place.

Cathexis

@glurin its a bit delusional to assume that because you play a sorcerer build using magika and there is far less challenge in finding a functional build that ZOS somehow agrees that you are playing the correct way.

Glurin

@Cathexis:

I didn't say they "agree that I'm playing the correct way". I said they agree with me on what a sorcerer is.

Frankly though, I was just sick of Varicite using that fallacy over and over. Just because ZOS did something to another class once doesn't mean they have to do the exact same thing to this class the next time or that they will or even that they want to at all.