Rise of The Perma-Dodger

AriBoh

This is priceless. "I cant keep defending my OP shields so I'm going on the offensive" stay classy OP.

AhPook_Is_Here

Maybe zeni should just add an increased cost if used again in X period of time, similar to what was done with bolt escape. It always reminds me of that one episode of lone wolf and cub when the ninja girl hops backward very quickly and in a few seconds is gone over the horizon. Diminishing returns worked pretty well to put bolt escape in check while still allowing for specialized builds, I don't see why adding the same increasing cost to dodge wouldn't allow the same to still exist.

The_Drexill

Great thing about all the nerf whining, is it shows how balanced the game is getting.

Keep ignoring all these threads and you get a thumbs up ZoS.

driosketch

olsborg wrote: »

do what they did to bolt escape, only slightly different, if reused within 3 seconds of the previous dodge roll increase the cost by 10%, if you do it again within 3 secs, the cost goes up a further 10% to a cap of 100%

Just a suggestion

Most likely move. They did a similar thing to bash a while back.

Ezareth

Snit wrote: »

A bunch of things will break for players over 1k CP. Dodge Roll will probably be the first (for WW Bosmer Nightblades, anyway). But Bolt Escape and Block won't be far behind. Everything meant to be resource-constrained will eventually ignore those limits.

This isn't an emergency. Only a few players will achieve huge numbers of CP in the next six months or so, and most of us should just learn to cope with the fact that they are going to be disproportionately powerful.

Over the long-term, ZOS may have to rethink its design. The power curve between 30 CP and a perfectly built and geared up, 1k CP character of any class is going to be galactic in scope. While I personally like that sort of thing, I recognize that most people do not, and it may not be healthy for the game in the long run.

Again, though, it won't be just dodgers. They'll be the first. But every spec will get there.

Don't forget this can and *is* being done by players today with around 100 CP not 1000.

I agree with what you're saying though, the scaling right now with champion points is insane. I know people with over 200 CP and that gap is only going to get larger.

Snit wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The best players couple dodge roll spam with other survival abilities like healing ward, green dragon blood, vigor etc. They're also using tripots to top of their health and stam when necessary.

I may be alone in this, but so what?

If "the best players" can put together specs that, with great gear and plenty of CP and pots, become extremely difficult to kill, I see that as a reward for being that good. That's a goal.

Can you imagine Teargrants with 1k CP? Sheliza? Effing Sypher? Heck, you're going to be goofy strong, too. The top players are going to be minibosses. I don't think more than a small percentage of players will achieve that, though. So, even speaking as someone who decidedly is not elite, I think that's kinda cool. As long as the population is large enough that I'm not getting my arse handed to me by a 'name' every 8 minutes, I don't mind getting wrecked on occasion.

But, again, I suspect my opinion will be shared by a tiny number of people

The issue is this isn't some build or spec that is difficult to achieve or requires any measure of skill. This is possible for *everyone* with a couple crafted sets, drink, enchants, medium armor and the right champion point allocation. Once more and more people figure this out you're going to see literally ever medium armor wearer abusing it. Hell *I'm* going to be abusing it in light armor as soon as I get a couple thousand AP. My stamina regen is already pretty high and I don't need to dodge roll infinitely only 5 or 6 times in a row to become almost unkillable.

cschwingeb14_ESO

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

You have no ability to equip a bow, 1h/s 2h or re-morph to ambush? Maybe you should submit a bug ticket!

Just because your favorite build has trouble one class spec for not mean its op. I don't run destroy staff anymore because of reflect and bol everywhere. I want to, but the meta isn't good for it. Ah well.

Charge spam kills sorcs just fine. Bow spam hurts then enough to force them to run or cycle shields endlessly.

Ezareth

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

You have no ability to equip a bow, 1h/s 2h or re-morph to ambush? Maybe you should submit a bug ticket!

Just because your favorite build has trouble one class spec for not mean its op. I don't run destroy staff anymore because of reflect and bol everywhere. I want to, but the meta isn't good for it. Ah well.

Charge spam kills sorcs just fine. Bow spam hurts then enough to force them to run or cycle shields endlessly.

Yeah @Galalin got me with his 2 hander a few times last night. I probably got him a couple times more but he's a good example of a 2 hander player who knows how to kill sorcs.

And he also is an perma-dodge-roller. As soon as his attacks on me failed he just started dodging away all the way back to his resource completely untouchable by me. The only times I could kill him were when he made mistakes or over-committed on the offense.

Galalin

Ezareth wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

You have no ability to equip a bow, 1h/s 2h or re-morph to ambush? Maybe you should submit a bug ticket!

Just because your favorite build has trouble one class spec for not mean its op. I don't run destroy staff anymore because of reflect and bol everywhere. I want to, but the meta isn't good for it. Ah well.

Charge spam kills sorcs just fine. Bow spam hurts then enough to force them to run or cycle shields endlessly.

Yeah @Galalin got me with his 2 hander a few times last night. I probably got him a couple times more but he's a good example of a 2 hander player who knows how to kill sorcs.

And he also is an perma-dodge-roller. As soon as his attacks on me failed he just started dodging away all the way back to his resource completely untouchable by me. The only times I could kill him were when he made mistakes or over-committed on the offense.

I have just under 900 stam regen... but save enough to vacate a situation when needed... and yup you got the better of me most of our fights... none the less its always a great fight when we get to 1v1

DK SCRUB OUT

Verdwhisper

If u ask me, champion system is totally unnecessary and racial passive design is a joke. I just quit playing. I m a min/maxer but i dont want to spent time and feel bothered to grind cp and stuff. I m tired enough after made 2 toons to v14 and 6 months of repeating game experience.

Erock25

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

You have no ability to equip a bow, 1h/s 2h or re-morph to ambush? Maybe you should submit a bug ticket!

Just because your favorite build has trouble one class spec for not mean its op. I don't run destroy staff anymore because of reflect and bol everywhere. I want to, but the meta isn't good for it. Ah well.

Charge spam kills sorcs just fine. Bow spam hurts then enough to force them to run or cycle shields endlessly.

Yeah @Galalin got me with his 2 hander a few times last night. I probably got him a couple times more but he's a good example of a 2 hander player who knows how to kill sorcs.

And he also is an perma-dodge-roller. As soon as his attacks on me failed he just started dodging away all the way back to his resource completely untouchable by me. The only times I could kill him were when he made mistakes or over-committed on the offense.

I have just under 900 stam regen... but save enough to vacate a situation when needed... and yup you got the better of me most of our fights... none the less its always a great fight when we get to 1v1

DK SCRUB OUT

You are a DK stam build and have under 900 stam regen????

Galalin

Erock25 wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

You have no ability to equip a bow, 1h/s 2h or re-morph to ambush? Maybe you should submit a bug ticket!

Just because your favorite build has trouble one class spec for not mean its op. I don't run destroy staff anymore because of reflect and bol everywhere. I want to, but the meta isn't good for it. Ah well.

Charge spam kills sorcs just fine. Bow spam hurts then enough to force them to run or cycle shields endlessly.

Yeah @Galalin got me with his 2 hander a few times last night. I probably got him a couple times more but he's a good example of a 2 hander player who knows how to kill sorcs.

And he also is an perma-dodge-roller. As soon as his attacks on me failed he just started dodging away all the way back to his resource completely untouchable by me. The only times I could kill him were when he made mistakes or over-committed on the offense.

I have just under 900 stam regen... but save enough to vacate a situation when needed... and yup you got the better of me most of our fights... none the less its always a great fight when we get to 1v1

DK SCRUB OUT

You are a DK stam build and have under 900 stam regen????

Without DB yup... it may not make sense to most but it works for me.

DK SCRUB OUT

TheBull

Try that against sorcs. They will streak you right out of it, completely ignoring the immunity.

Galalin

TheBull wrote: »

Try that against sorcs. They will streak you right out of it, completely ignoring the immunity.

I have my reasons... just not going to put em up here on the forums... i fight sorcs all the time. There are ways to be efficient without regen allowing for a bigger pool and more dps.... but thats just my opinion and my regen will get better as i gain CP. It works for my playstyle but it may not work for others... there are prob better builds but like i say... it works for me

DK SCRUB OUT

Teargrants

Btw @Ezarerh I prefer to call them Roller Blades.

Galalin

Teargrants wrote: »

Btw @Ezarerh I prefer to call them Roller Blades.

Hahaha thats awesome

DK SCRUB OUT

Ezareth

Teargrants wrote: »

Btw @Ezarerh I prefer to call them Roller Blades.

That's pretty good (as usual).

Rune_Relic

So lets get this right.
1. you maxed on food buff
2. you maxed out on potion buff
3. you maxed out all your jewellery on regen
4. you maxed out all your armour on regen
5. you chose the race with ridiculously OP regen [indefensible that one]
6. you chose to become a werewolf.
...etc.

Basically you have sacrificed everything on the altar of stam regen....and then say wow look at my regen and what it can do ?
/sighs
Max out a sorc on magicka regen skills and I am sure they will do crazy things

You can escape with BE. you don't need infinite BE..just enough to get out of range.
I see roll dodge as no different...you don't move at anywhere near the speed of BE or distance
I see shield stackers as no different.

Wheres the weapon damage ?
Wheres the increased armour ?
Wheres the health regen ?
Wheres the added crit ?

Ezareth

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So lets get this right.
1. you maxed on food buff
2. you maxed out on potion buff
3. you maxed out all your jewellery on regen
4. you maxed out all your armour on regen
5. you chose the race with ridiculously OP regen [indefensible that one]
6. you chose to become a werewolf.
...etc.

Basically you have sacrificed everything on the altar of stam regen....and then say wow look at my regen and what it can do ?
/sighs
Max out a sorc on magicka regen skills and I am sure they will do crazy things dungeons

You can escape with BE. you don't need infinite BE..just enough to get out of range.
I see roll dodge as no different.
I see shield stackers as no different.

@Rune_relic


Actually I didn't Max out on food buff(I'll assume you meant drink). Tri-stat drink gives you 288 Stamina Regen. V10 Magicka/Stam drink gives you 350 Stamina regen and is far far better since health regen is worthless.

I didn't max out on Potion buffs. The PTS potions are weaker than live tri-stats by a 3-400 stamina each.

I maxed all my jewelry (As clearly shown and explained in the description of the video no to mention my post and suggestions) on Stamina *Cost reduction*.

I pointedly stated and showed that *none* of the armor in the PTS has stamina regen on it.

Yes I chose Bosmer (1 out of 6 isn't bad).

I didn't choose to become a werewolf....all PTS chars are werewolves and anyone in the game right now that isn't a vamp should be as well as there are no drawbacks to being one, only free stamina regen.....and vamps get 10% stamina regen so no real loss there.

As I clearly stated and am continuing to state 2,000 stamina regen is *not very difficult* for a medium armor player. I have over 1040 stamina regen and I don't have a single piece of stamina recovery other than drink and I'm a werewolf. With stamina cost reduction if I were wearing medium armor right now I could dodge roll for at least 2 minutes straight as a sorc!

I'm actually pretty close to maxxed out on magica regen right now and I can't bolt escape for 40 seconds. As I said before, this has nothing to do with bolt escape, it has everything to do with no real cost on a very powerful ability with a build that sacrifices next to nothing to get there!

Wahee

@Ezareth I really find this hard to take seriously coming from an ardent defender of the current sorc pvp meta. I'd argue that hardened ward and bol offer better survivability than dodge rolling and those can also be kept up permanently with the right build.

BTW dodge roll does not do anything against channels and aoe.

How can you justify your classes permanently sustainable damage avoidance while saying another method of doing it is out of line?

Magicka cost reduction and regen allow for basically unkillable sorcs in the right hands, and the same goes for stamina characters with dodge roll. If you are going to throw these kind of builds under the bus it has to be a blanket change to all forms of permanently spammable defense, not just the ones used by classes you don't play. The alternative is having your very FOTM sorc build be unbeatable against any stam character, which I'm sure you'd think was awesome balance.

TLDR:
Dodge roll is the stamina player's version of shield spam. Both can be spammed infinitely with the right build and both have drawbacks (shields break and aoe/channels hit through dodge). Sorcs have no room at all to complain unless both forms of avoidance are brought in line together.

Rune_Relic

And those that aren't werewolf on principle and aren't bosmer ?
I am not saying its not powerful...what I am saying is you have built it to do that.
Then seem surprised that it can do that.
AND you cant do it endlessly (unless you want to do nothing but dodge roll) as its a shared pool

Brings back memories of so much magicka regen sorcs could solo vet group dungeons. That was OK....this isn't ?
Show me a medium armour stamina build soloing vet group dungeons I I will glad sign up to a nerf.

There is also some questions on what cost reduction actually works on to be honest.
You would think medium armour would increase the sprint distance for instance.....cost reduction doesn't even get applied to this.

In the meantime I better invest in provisions and alchemy become a werewolf and change race

Ezareth

Wahee wrote: »

@Ezareth I really find this hard to take seriously coming from an ardent defender of the current sorc pvp meta. I'd argue that hardened ward and bol offer better survivability than dodge rolling and those can also be kept up permanently with the right build.

BTW dodge roll does not do anything against channels and aoe.

How can you justify your classes permanently sustainable damage avoidance while saying another method of doing it is out of line?

Magicka cost reduction and regen allow for basically unkillable sorcs in the right hands, and the same goes for stamina characters with dodge roll. If you are going to throw these kind of builds under the bus it has to be a blanket change to all forms of permanently spammable defense, not just the ones used by classes you don't play. The alternative is having your very FOTM sorc build be unbeatable against any stam character, which I'm sure you'd think was awesome balance.

TLDR:
Dodge roll is the stamina player's version of shield spam. Both can be spammed infinitely with the right build and both have drawbacks (shields break and aoe/channels hit through dodge). Sorcs have no room at all to complain unless both forms of avoidance are brought in line together.

Hardened ward and Bolt escape will let me survive against 2 good players and no more. If they are bad players I can fight 3-5 off them by doing my play around the edges and pick off the sickly lamb tactic but this isn't about bolt escape and as I already clearly stated in my suggestions I fully advocate nerfing magicka regeneration by the same measure which will make doing what I do even harder for me.

Also as I mentioned I know there are counters to dodge rolling but 90%+ of the abilities people have slotted right now can't hit through dodge roll. When is the last time you even saw an AoE bomb anyways? If I'm stupid enough to find myself in the middle of a large group of players I'm pretty much dead 100% of the time, a dodge roller won't really be different but he's got a better chance than I do against the zerg because of the 100% unresistable stun added to crit charge (Glad I now know why I die so easily to charge trains now).

I'm not going to take the bait on the redirect to sorcs, this is about Dodge rolls not any class in particular. Needless to say I'm dying far more than I've ever died regardless.

This is about the *ease* at which spamming one of the best defensive abilities in the game (which coincidentally don't cost you 3 slots on your bars or have increasing costs) indefinitely. I'm trying to bring this issue to light and hopefully all of the stamina users out there right now who are reading this and not already exploiting it will begin to do so until it is noticed by enough people that it is fixed.

Rune_Relic

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And those that aren't werewolf on principle and aren't bosmer ?
I am not saying its not powerful...what I am saying is you have built it to do that.
Then seem surprised that it can do that.
AND you cant do it endlessly (unless you want to do nothing but dodge roll) as its a shared pool

Brings back memories of so much magicka regen sorcs could solo vet group dungeons. That was OK....this isn't ?
Show me a medium armour stamina build soloing vet group dungeons I I will glad sign up to a nerf.

There is also some questions on what cost reduction actually works on to be honest.
You would think medium armour would increase the sprint distance for instance.....cost reduction doesn't even get applied to this.

In the meantime I better invest in provisions and alchemy become a werewolf and change race

Of course it has everything to do with bolt escape. Its an evasion system.
Why would you use magicka evasion systems on a stamina build.

Ezareth

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And those that aren't werewolf on principle and aren't bosmer ?
I am not saying its not powerful...what I am saying is you have built it to do that.
Then seem surprised that it can do that.
AND you cant do it endlessly (unless you want to do nothing but dodge roll) as its a shared pool

Brings back memories of so much magicka regen sorcs could solo vet group dungeons. That was OK....this isn't ?
Show me a medium armour stamina build soloing vet group dungeons I I will glad sign up to a nerf.

There is also some questions on what cost reduction actually works on to be honest.
You would think medium armour would increase the sprint distance for instance.....cost reduction doesn't even get applied to this.

In the meantime I better invest in provisions and alchemy become a werewolf and change race

What I'm saying is that there is no real cost to build to "Perma-dodge". You're already running cost-reduction enchants if you're smart because they are far more powerful than regen or weapon damage or any other choices. The addition of reducing the cost of dodge roll *and* break free is bonus. Icing on the cake.

I don't know about sorcs soloing vet dungeons, I know I die an awful lot in vet dungeons right now as hardened ward spamming has a relatively low threshhold (even without the 15% damage nerf) before it is completely shredded and must need to be recast. I can stand in a large group of mobs, animation cancelling hardened ward but not doing any damage because as soon as I do, my shield and health get dropped fast. The chief way I survive in dungeons is by kiting mobs so yes Sorcs can kite damage mobs probably better than any class.

I did extensive testing on cost reduction and there isn't a thing about it that I don't know explicitly so feel free to ask any questions you'd like.

Rune_Relic

1. medium armour cost reduction has no effect on sprinting ? You can check that for me if you tested it. Been bugging me and I would like confirmation

You see I expected the +regen and -cost of the medium armour ot apply to everything. I was wrong [LIVE]. So I need to test everything as I don't trust ZOS track record.

Weapon cost reductions are inconsistent too...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160827/stamina-cost-errors#latest
1h+s appears to be the only thing working properly.

I would also delve deeper in to cost reduction vs regen.
The regen figure tooltip often has no bearing on reality.
I could have has 153 cost reduction or +45 regen.
153 would be better..except the actual regen jumped +62 on the character sheet.
This made the regen option vastly superior.
The tootip regen is actually the base figure before any % multiplyers are applied.
ie (514 + 45) * %

Gilvoth

Warraxx wrote: »

bolt escape>dodge roll

this is correct, bolt escape is by Far greater then dodge roll.

Ezareth

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. medium armour cost reduction has no effect on sprinting ? You can check that for me if you tested it. Been bugging me and I would like confirmation

You see I expected the +regen and -cost of the medium armour ot apply to everything. I was wrong [LIVE]. So I need to test everything as I don't trust ZOS track record.

To my knowledge it does not apply to sprinting or any stamina non-ability combat actions. Stamina cost reduction passives and set bonuses only apply to actual stamina abilities.

For whatever reason Stamina Cost reduction enchants do not follow this general design principle and they apply to break free and dodge roll which makes them the most powerful enchants in the game.

Wahee

Ezareth wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

@Ezareth I really find this hard to take seriously coming from an ardent defender of the current sorc pvp meta. I'd argue that hardened ward and bol offer better survivability than dodge rolling and those can also be kept up permanently with the right build.

BTW dodge roll does not do anything against channels and aoe.

How can you justify your classes permanently sustainable damage avoidance while saying another method of doing it is out of line?

Magicka cost reduction and regen allow for basically unkillable sorcs in the right hands, and the same goes for stamina characters with dodge roll. If you are going to throw these kind of builds under the bus it has to be a blanket change to all forms of permanently spammable defense, not just the ones used by classes you don't play. The alternative is having your very FOTM sorc build be unbeatable against any stam character, which I'm sure you'd think was awesome balance.

TLDR:
Dodge roll is the stamina player's version of shield spam. Both can be spammed infinitely with the right build and both have drawbacks (shields break and aoe/channels hit through dodge). Sorcs have no room at all to complain unless both forms of avoidance are brought in line together.

Hardened ward and Bolt escape will let me survive against 2 good players and no more. If they are bad players I can fight 3-5 off them by doing my play around the edges and pick off the sickly lamb tactic but this isn't about bolt escape and as I already clearly stated in my suggestions I fully advocate nerfing magicka regeneration by the same measure which will make doing what I do even harder for me.

Also as I mentioned I know there are counters to dodge rolling but 90%+ of the abilities people have slotted right now can't hit through dodge roll. When is the last time you even saw an AoE bomb anyways? If I'm stupid enough to find myself in the middle of a large group of players I'm pretty much dead 100% of the time, a dodge roller won't really be different but he's got a better chance than I do against the zerg because of the 100% unresistable stun added to crit charge (Glad I now know why I die so easily to charge trains now).

I'm not going to take the bait on the redirect to sorcs, this is about Dodge rolls not any class in particular. Needless to say I'm dying far more than I've ever died regardless.

This is about the *ease* at which spamming one of the best defensive abilities in the game (which coincidentally don't cost you 3 slots on your bars or have increasing costs) indefinitely. I'm trying to bring this issue to light and hopefully all of the stamina users out there right now who are reading this and not already exploiting it will begin to do so until it is noticed by enough people that it is fixed.

I only make the comparison to sorcs because it is the most relevant comparison when talking about spammable abilities that allow a player to negate all incoming damage and/or escape. The same debate about bol and hard ward really applies here as the end result is the same: spammable escape and damage avoidance.

My point is, if this kind of playstyle has been just fine for sorcs for over a year why is it now an issue when someone who isn't a sorc can achieve similar results?

Your suggestion of a global change to all regen in the champ system is a good start. This can't be just about dodge roll, it has to be about regen and cost reduction for all builds. Perma-anything is bad, not just dodging.

Rune_Relic

Ezareth wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

1. medium armour cost reduction has no effect on sprinting ? You can check that for me if you tested it. Been bugging me and I would like confirmation

You see I expected the +regen and -cost of the medium armour ot apply to everything. I was wrong [LIVE]. So I need to test everything as I don't trust ZOS track record.

To my knowledge it does not apply to sprinting or any stamina non-ability combat actions. Stamina cost reduction passives and set bonuses only apply to actual stamina abilities.

For whatever reason Stamina Cost reduction enchants do not follow this general design principle and they apply to break free and dodge roll which makes them the most powerful enchants in the game.

Well this is what confused me.
CS you have warlord [weapon cost], sprint [spint cost], bashing focus [bash cost], shade [sneak cost], tumbing [break/roll] and of course mooncalf for regen.
Before that we had medium armour passive windwalker to reduce stamina cost of abilities. I assumed that meant anything that used stamina. [athletics I though was the anomaly that did roll dodge]
What you are saying is windwalker = CS warlord only ?

Galalin

Oh the QQ is real so many worms to little cans.

DK SCRUB OUT

Galalin

I feel partially responsible for this thread.... you all know this is a direct attempt to deflect the QQ of damage shields and BoL right?

Let me get my popcorn...

ADDED: Ezareth i love you bud.... one of the best sorcs i know and very knowledgeable but have fun with this one

DK SCRUB OUT